Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [zookeeper] "Gay" penguins

Expand Messages
  • Stephen Kolomyjec
    well disagree as much as you like but the literature dissagrees with you. And i believe that i did say they weren t suitable for a breeding program. i m done
    Message 1 of 29 , Feb 28, 2005
      well disagree as much as you like but the literature dissagrees with you.
      And i believe that i did say they weren't suitable for a breeding program.
      i'm done with this, because of stupid people like you i am leaving this list.
      if you choose to ignore the wealth of research thats been done then so be it.
      -stephen

      Roseanne Salter wrote:
      Thanks, John. Most people think I'm talking about
      humans here. I never mentioned humans...(Although, I
      have my convictions on the matter about humans)...but
      I mentioned the penguins! Thats right, they should be
      taken out of the breeding program if they arent going
      to breed!! 
      As for what Stephen said about the behavior being
      natural; I disagree. What I see as being natural is
      the way each gender was created different physically &
      mentally. The physical differences accomadate each
      other naturally for the purpose of creating offspring.
      Its basic biology. 
      Its too bad some people in this group become angry
      over what I said instead of thinking about the point I
      tried to make. Zoos are for breeding & caring for the
      animals they keep & for educating the public about
      their situation on earth. If a zoo isent doing this
      because of public pressure, worrying about angering
      certain groups of people because of what is percieved
      as political correctness now-a-days, they arent doing
      their jobs!
      
      
      --- John Adams <j84adams@...> wrote:
      
        
      No offense stephen but while i dont agree with what
      Roseanne has to say. I must say that accusing people
      of "dumb ideas" is not the way to go about it. and
      saying that it was a very ignorant thing to say isnt
      totally correct either. Some of the smartest people
      in the world where orginally critized for the ideas
      "ie.. Darwin". Being in the animal industry i do
      understand that animals much like humans may be
      "gay" and or"straight" however the simple fact of
      the matter i think is not that these animals are gay
      but that every possible effort should be made to
      save endangered species. Now i am not saying that
      they should be force to breed but perhaps taking
      them out of the breeding program and acquiring
      breeding stock would be more suitable.
      
      Stephen Kolomyjec <lordkolomyjec@...>
      wrote:wow, what an amazingly ignorant thing to say.
      Animal homosexual behavior is just as natural and
      about as common as in is in humans, EVEN IN THE
      WILD. It is extremely doubtful that hand raising
      could have anyhting to do with it  what so ever. Its
      not really surprising that people would try to blame
      human interference but then its only been within the
      last decade or so that scientist have opened up
      their minds and stopped making up excuses for such
      behavior in animals. The simple truth is some
      animals like some people are just gay, get over it.
      You can try to FORCE them to breed and you might get
      a few to but some never will. For example some
      seaguls that form lesbian pair bonds, FOR LIFE,
      might mate with a male in the wild so the female
      pair can raise a chick or they might steal eggs, in
      away adopting a youngster, and never mate with a
      male their entire lives. This is in the wild
      witnessed over and over again with noninterfering
      methods. Wheres the excuses then for their "wrong
      behavior"?
      I do agree that one of a zoo's goals is to bred
      endagered species but not every animal is really a
      candidate. 
      And what happens if someone does try your dumb idea
      of altering their hormones, (shown in most animals
      not to significantly effect sexuallity) and the
      penguins just try even harder to "breed" with the
      same gender.....should we just shoot them *rolls
      eyes*.
      But you don't have to take my word for any of this,
      because there are so many refference sources out
      there that discuss animal sexuallity, one of the
      largest collections of which is a book called
      Biological Exuberance, maybe you should do some
      valid research before you decide what behavior is
      right or wrong in animals.
      
      -Stephen
      
      Roseanne wrote: 
      I read an article in Zoonewsdigest...another yahoo
      group...about somepenguins in Germany. I think it
      was about 6 penguins in Germany?Anyway, the keepers
      tried to seperate the "gay" penguins & set them
      upwith penguins from sweden & it didnt work. The zoo
      recieved alot ofangry letters & calls about
      seperating them trying to seperate them,so they
      finally decided to let the penguins be the way they
      are.WHY??????? Is what I ask. Zoos are supposed to
      breed their animals! These are an
      endangeredspecies!!!! I have to say it is very
      backward to stop the programmeant to HELP the
      penguins, just because a bunch of nasty people
      getupity & start "calling discrimination". These
      animals are supposed tobe having offspring.
      Something is wrong with them, & it should belooked
      into on exactly how to help them. They need vet
      treatment. Itcould be a hormone /chemical
      imbalance...or as the moderator ofZoonewsdigest
      (Peter) thinks; hand rearing. What ever the reason
      fortheir behavior, it SHOULD be corrected!
      
      Sharing knowledge so that animals may benefit from
      better care. 
      
      
      Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
      
      
      ---------------------------------
      Yahoo! Groups Links
      
         To visit your group on the web, go to:
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/zookeeper/
        
         To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      zookeeper-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        
         Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
      Yahoo! Terms of Service. 
      
      
      
      
      
      ---------------------------------
      Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo!
      Movies.
      
          
      
      
      	
      		
      __________________________________ 
      Do you Yahoo!? 
      Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. 
      http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
      
      
      
      
      
      ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> 
      Has someone you know been affected by illness or disease?
      Network for Good is THE place to support health awareness efforts!
      http://us.click.yahoo.com/RzSHvD/UOnJAA/79vVAA/1DYolB/TM
      --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> 
      
      Sharing knowledge so that animals may benefit from better care. 
      Yahoo! Groups Links
      
      <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/zookeeper/
      
      <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          zookeeper-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      
      <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
       
      
      
      
      
      
        
    • Jenn Burgess
      Do you work at a zoo? And if so what animals do you care for? just wondering Roseanne Salter wrote: Thanks, John. Most people
      Message 2 of 29 , Feb 28, 2005
        Do you work at a zoo?  And if so what animals do you care for?
        just wondering

        Roseanne Salter <kittycathoteltwo@...> wrote:

        Thanks, John. Most people think I'm talking about
        humans here. I never mentioned humans...(Although, I
        have my convictions on the matter about humans)...but
        I mentioned the penguins! Thats right, they should be
        taken out of the breeding program if they arent going
        to breed!!
        As for what Stephen said about the behavior being
        natural; I disagree. What I see as being natural is
        the way each gender was created different physically &
        mentally. The physical differences accomadate each
        other naturally for the purpose of creating offspring.
        Its basic biology.
        Its too bad some people in this group become angry
        over what I said instead of thinking about the point I
        tried to make. Zoos are for breeding & caring for the
        animals they keep & for educating the public about
        their situation on earth. If a zoo isent doing this
        because of public pressure, worrying about angering
        certain groups of people because of what is percieved
        as political correctness now-a-days, they arent doing
        their jobs!


        --- John Adams <j84adams@...> wrote:

        > No offense stephen but while i dont agree with what
        > Roseanne has to say. I must say that accusing people
        > of "dumb ideas" is not the way to go about it. and
        > saying that it was a very ignorant thing to say isnt
        > totally correct either. Some of the smartest people
        > in the world where orginally critized for the ideas
        > "ie.. Darwin". Being in the animal industry i do
        > understand that animals much like humans may be
        > "gay" and or"straight" however the simple fact of
        > the matter i think is not that these animals are gay
        > but that every possible effort should be made to
        > save endangered species. Now i am not saying that
        > they should be force to breed but perhaps taking
        > them out of the breeding program and acquiring
        > breeding stock would be more suitable.
        >
        > Stephen Kolomyjec <lordkolomyjec@...>
        > wrote:wow, what an amazingly ignorant thing to say.
        > Animal homosexual behavior is just as natural and
        > about as common as in is in humans, EVEN IN THE
        > WILD. It is extremely doubtful that hand raising
        > could have anyhting to do with it  what so ever. Its
        > not really surprising that people would try to blame
        > human interference but then its only been within the
        > last decade or so that scientist have opened up
        > their minds and stopped making up excuses for such
        > behavior in animals. The simple truth is some
        > animals like some people are just gay, get over it.
        > You can try to FORCE them to breed and you might get
        > a few to but some never will. For example some
        > seaguls that form lesbian pair bonds, FOR LIFE,
        > might mate with a male in the wild so the female
        > pair can raise a chick or they might steal eggs, in
        > away adopting a youngster, and never mate with a
        > male their entire lives. This is in the wild
        > witnessed over and over again with noninterfering
        > methods. Wheres the excuses then for their "wrong
        > behavior"?
        > I do agree that one of a zoo's goals is to bred
        > endagered species but not every animal is really a
        > candidate.
        > And what happens if someone does try your dumb idea
        > of altering their hormones, (shown in most animals
        > not to significantly effect sexuallity) and the
        > penguins just try even harder to "breed" with the
        > same gender.....should we just shoot them *rolls
        > eyes*.
        > But you don't have to take my word for any of this,
        > because there are so many refference sources out
        > there that discuss animal sexuallity, one of the
        > largest collections of which is a book called
        > Biological Exuberance, maybe you should do some
        > valid research before you decide what behavior is
        > right or wrong in animals.
        >
        > -Stephen
        >
        > Roseanne wrote:
        > I read an article in Zoonewsdigest...another yahoo
        > group...about somepenguins in Germany. I think it
        > was about 6 penguins in Germany?Anyway, the keepers
        > tried to seperate the "gay" penguins & set them
        > upwith penguins from sweden & it didnt work. The zoo
        > recieved alot ofangry letters & calls about
        > seperating them trying to seperate them,so they
        > finally decided to let the penguins be the way they
        > are.WHY??????? Is what I ask. Zoos are supposed to
        > breed their animals! These are an
        > endangeredspecies!!!! I have to say it is very
        > backward to stop the programmeant to HELP the
        > penguins, just because a bunch of nasty people
        > getupity & start "calling discrimination". These
        > animals are supposed tobe having offspring.
        > Something is wrong with them, & it should belooked
        > into on exactly how to help them. They need vet
        > treatment. Itcould be a hormone /chemical
        > imbalance...or as the moderator ofZoonewsdigest
        > (Peter) thinks; hand rearing. What ever the reason
        > fortheir behavior, it SHOULD be corrected!
        >
        > Sharing knowledge so that animals may benefit from
        > better care.
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >    To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/zookeeper/
        >  
        >    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > zookeeper-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >  
        >    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
        > Yahoo! Terms of Service.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo!
        > Movies.
        >



             
                   
        __________________________________
        Do you Yahoo!?
        Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
        http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail





        Sharing knowledge so that animals may benefit from better care.



        Do you Yahoo!?
        Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.

      • Valerie
        I see it took two whole days for someone to jump on that. But I stand by the assertion. Humans may be mammals, but they are far from being animals. The
        Message 3 of 29 , Feb 28, 2005
           I see it took two whole days for someone to jump on that. But I stand by the assertion. Humans may be mammals, but they are far from being animals. The distinction should be clear.
           
          -------Original Message-------
           
          Date: 02/28/05 15:43:38
          Subject: Re: [zookeeper] "Gay" penguins
           
          people are animals

          Valerie <blueflamingo@...> wrote:
          Oh please! Much of the so-called "gay " animal behavior is simply dominance behaviors, as in dogs and primates. Birds on the other hand have a very strong urge to pair bond, so if the opposite gender is not available they will take what they can get. Many birds bond for life so it is not surprising that these penguins didn't immediately run to the females. But no one remotely familiar with animal behavior can claim this is their "choice" or "life style". 
           
          Animals are not people; people are not animals.
           
          Val
           
          -------Original Message-------
           
          Date: 02/26/05 21:57:37
          Subject: Re: [zookeeper] "Gay" penguins
           
          There are many penguins which are gay or lesbian. I know of a few different zoos around the world with the same problem many of them have not been handraised they have just paired up. I am sure the same behaviour is found in the wild. Many different animals are gay just look at dogs.

          Wayne


          I read an article in Zoonewsdigest...another yahoo group...about some
          penguins in Germany. I think it was about 6 penguins in Germany?
          Anyway, the keepers tried to seperate the "gay" penguins & set them up
          with penguins from sweden & it didnt work. The zoo recieved alot of
          angry letters & calls about seperating them trying to seperate them,
          so they finally decided to let the penguins be the way they are.
          WHY??????? Is what I ask.
          Zoos are supposed to breed their animals! These are an endangered
          species!!!! I have to say it is very backward to stop the program
          meant to HELP the penguins, just because a bunch of nasty people get
          upity & start "calling discrimination". These animals are supposed to
          be having offspring. Something is wrong with them, & it should be
          looked into on exactly how to help them. They need vet treatment. It
          could be a hormone /chemical imbalance...or as the moderator of
          Zoonewsdigest (Peter) thinks; hand rearing. What ever the reason for
          their behavior, it SHOULD be corrected! I DO MEAN CORRECTED because it
          is very wrong behavior.
          I just wanted to say that the zoo in Germany shouldnt have stopped
          trying to get the penguins to breed with the females. Whats the point
          of a zoo if it doesnt do its job to help keep the animal population,
          especially the endangered ones, up?








          Sharing knowledge so that animals may benefit from better care.




          Sharing knowledge so that animals may benefit from better care.


           


          Sharing knowledge so that animals may benefit from better care.


          __________________________________________________
          Do You Yahoo!?
          Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
          http://mail.yahoo.com

          Sharing knowledge so that animals may benefit from better care.


           
          Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!
        • Jenny Hammell
          thank you for being so informative dirk. ... http://www.zoopresseschau.info/presseschau-2005-02-17.htm ...
          Message 4 of 29 , Mar 1, 2005
            thank you for being so informative dirk.

            --- zoofan_de <dpetzold@...> wrote:

            >
            >
            > Hi folks,
            >
            > there is no need to attack and accuse anyone just
            > because of a rumor
            > that has been picked up by the yellow press. In
            > fact, this German zoo
            > acted very professional and was quite surprised
            > about all those
            > articles telling fairytales.
            >
            > There were lots of press articles, not just those in
            > Peters ZooNewsDigest.
            > In the German equivalent "Zoopresseschau" you will
            > find many links to
            > the German originals:
            >
            http://www.zoopresseschau.info/presseschau-2005-02-17.htm
            > One of the more reliable - the science section of
            > one of the big news
            > magazines in Germany:
            >
            http://www.stern.de/wissenschaft/natur/index.html?id=536441&nv=hp_rt
            >
            > Even a crude Google or Bablefish translation will
            > prove that Dir. Dr.
            > K�ck of Bremerhaven Zoo works well within the EEP
            > breeding program and
            > acts totally professional:
            >
            > The zoo directress explained the background of the
            > attempt: Humboldt
            > penguins are threatened from becoming extinct.
            > Therefore she wanted to
            > determine whether the three male couples in the zoo
            > are to be
            > interested in a combination with the females. So far
            > the males showed
            > however no inclinations to the female sex. The zoo
            > assumes that the
            > attempt was possibly started too late in this year.
            > The "mating of this year", which the breeding and
            > raising phase
            > follow, was already finished according to Kueck. It
            > lasts up to the
            > autumn. The zoo wants to wait for the coming winter
            > now. Then it is to
            > prove whether the penguin males dont like the
            > females in principle, or
            > a lack of alternative caused the situation so far.
            > The zoo held before 14 Humboldt penguins: ten males
            > and four females.
            > For the mating attempts four female penguins from
            > Sweden were added in
            > January. The zoo additionally got two (so far not
            > sexually adult )
            > males, so that the new females, if they are defamed
            > by the gays
            > penguins, also have chances on a partner.
            >
            > Of course, there is no force to the penguins on one
            > hand, and no
            > giving way to AR groups, politicians, churches or
            > whoever.
            > Just pure good animal keeping and breeding routine.
            > http://www.zoo-am-meer-bremerhaven.de
            >
            > Best wishes,
            > Dirk
            >
            >
            > --- In zookeeper@yahoogroups.com, "Roseanne"
            > <kittycathoteltwo@y...>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > I read an article in Zoonewsdigest...another yahoo
            > group...about some
            > > penguins in Germany. I think it was about 6
            > penguins in Germany?
            > > Anyway, the keepers tried to seperate the "gay"
            > penguins & set them up
            > > with penguins from sweden & it didnt work. The zoo
            > recieved alot of
            > > angry letters & calls about seperating them trying
            > to seperate them,
            > > so they finally decided to let the penguins be the
            > way they are.
            > > WHY??????? Is what I ask.
            > > Zoos are supposed to breed their animals! These
            > are an endangered
            > > species!!!! I have to say it is very backward to
            > stop the program
            > > meant to HELP the penguins, just because a bunch
            > of nasty people get
            > > upity & start "calling discrimination". These
            > animals are supposed to
            > > be having offspring. Something is wrong with them,
            > & it should be
            > > looked into on exactly how to help them. They need
            > vet treatment. It
            > > could be a hormone /chemical imbalance...or as the
            > moderator of
            > > Zoonewsdigest (Peter) thinks; hand rearing. What
            > ever the reason for
            > > their behavior, it SHOULD be corrected! I DO MEAN
            > CORRECTED because it
            > > is very wrong behavior.
            > > I just wanted to say that the zoo in Germany
            > shouldnt have stopped
            > > trying to get the penguins to breed with the
            > females. Whats the point
            > > of a zoo if it doesnt do its job to help keep the
            > animal population,
            > > especially the endangered ones, up?
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >




            __________________________________
            Do you Yahoo!?
            Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball.
            http://baseball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/
          • Roseanne Salter
            Do you mean me? If you do...no I dont work at a zoo (I dont see the significance of that. If I do or dont, would that make my posting more or less valid??). I
            Message 5 of 29 , Mar 3, 2005
              Do you mean me? If you do...no I dont work at a zoo (I
              dont see the significance of that. If I do or dont,
              would that make my posting more or less valid??).
              I have temporariy worked at one years ago
              though....work experience. I've graduated from the
              University of Manitoba in 2004 with a Bachelor of
              Science Degree in Zoology & Botany.

              Roseanne


              --- Jenn Burgess <ranspenny1222@...> wrote:

              > Do you work at a zoo? And if so what animals do you
              > care for?
              > just wondering
              >
              > Roseanne Salter <kittycathoteltwo@...> wrote:
              >
              > Thanks, John. Most people think I'm talking about
              > humans here. I never mentioned humans...(Although, I
              > have my convictions on the matter about
              > humans)...but
              > I mentioned the penguins! Thats right, they should
              > be
              > taken out of the breeding program if they arent
              > going
              > to breed!!
              > As for what Stephen said about the behavior being
              > natural; I disagree. What I see as being natural is
              > the way each gender was created different physically
              > &
              > mentally. The physical differences accomadate each
              > other naturally for the purpose of creating
              > offspring.
              > Its basic biology.
              > Its too bad some people in this group become angry
              > over what I said instead of thinking about the point
              > I
              > tried to make. Zoos are for breeding & caring for
              > the
              > animals they keep & for educating the public about
              > their situation on earth. If a zoo isent doing this
              > because of public pressure, worrying about angering
              > certain groups of people because of what is
              > percieved
              > as political correctness now-a-days, they arent
              > doing
              > their jobs!
              >
              >
              > --- John Adams <j84adams@...> wrote:
              >
              > > No offense stephen but while i dont agree with
              > what
              > > Roseanne has to say. I must say that accusing
              > people
              > > of "dumb ideas" is not the way to go about it. and
              > > saying that it was a very ignorant thing to say
              > isnt
              > > totally correct either. Some of the smartest
              > people
              > > in the world where orginally critized for the
              > ideas
              > > "ie.. Darwin". Being in the animal industry i do
              > > understand that animals much like humans may be
              > > "gay" and or"straight" however the simple fact of
              > > the matter i think is not that these animals are
              > gay
              > > but that every possible effort should be made to
              > > save endangered species. Now i am not saying that
              > > they should be force to breed but perhaps taking
              > > them out of the breeding program and acquiring
              > > breeding stock would be more suitable.
              > >
              > > Stephen Kolomyjec <lordkolomyjec@...>
              > > wrote:wow, what an amazingly ignorant thing to
              > say.
              > > Animal homosexual behavior is just as natural and
              > > about as common as in is in humans, EVEN IN THE
              > > WILD. It is extremely doubtful that hand raising
              > > could have anyhting to do with it what so ever.
              > Its
              > > not really surprising that people would try to
              > blame
              > > human interference but then its only been within
              > the
              > > last decade or so that scientist have opened up
              > > their minds and stopped making up excuses for such
              > > behavior in animals. The simple truth is some
              > > animals like some people are just gay, get over
              > it.
              > > You can try to FORCE them to breed and you might
              > get
              > > a few to but some never will. For example some
              > > seaguls that form lesbian pair bonds, FOR LIFE,
              > > might mate with a male in the wild so the female
              > > pair can raise a chick or they might steal eggs,
              > in
              > > away adopting a youngster, and never mate with a
              > > male their entire lives. This is in the wild
              > > witnessed over and over again with noninterfering
              > > methods. Wheres the excuses then for their "wrong
              > > behavior"?
              > > I do agree that one of a zoo's goals is to bred
              > > endagered species but not every animal is really a
              > > candidate.
              > > And what happens if someone does try your dumb
              > idea
              > > of altering their hormones, (shown in most animals
              > > not to significantly effect sexuallity) and the
              > > penguins just try even harder to "breed" with the
              > > same gender.....should we just shoot them *rolls
              > > eyes*.
              > > But you don't have to take my word for any of
              > this,
              > > because there are so many refference sources out
              > > there that discuss animal sexuallity, one of the
              > > largest collections of which is a book called
              > > Biological Exuberance, maybe you should do some
              > > valid research before you decide what behavior is
              > > right or wrong in animals.
              > >
              > > -Stephen
              > >
              > > Roseanne wrote:
              > > I read an article in Zoonewsdigest...another yahoo
              > > group...about somepenguins in Germany. I think it
              > > was about 6 penguins in Germany?Anyway, the
              > keepers
              > > tried to seperate the "gay" penguins & set them
              > > upwith penguins from sweden & it didnt work. The
              > zoo
              > > recieved alot ofangry letters & calls about
              > > seperating them trying to seperate them,so they
              > > finally decided to let the penguins be the way
              > they
              > > are.WHY??????? Is what I ask. Zoos are supposed to
              > > breed their animals! These are an
              > > endangeredspecies!!!! I have to say it is very
              > > backward to stop the programmeant to HELP the
              > > penguins, just because a bunch of nasty people
              > > getupity & start "calling discrimination". These
              > > animals are supposed tobe having offspring.
              > > Something is wrong with them, & it should belooked
              > > into on exactly how to help them. They need vet
              > > treatment. Itcould be a hormone /chemical
              > > imbalance...or as the moderator ofZoonewsdigest
              > > (Peter) thinks; hand rearing. What ever the reason
              > > fortheir behavior, it SHOULD be corrected!
              > >
              > > Sharing knowledge so that animals may benefit from
              > > better care.
              > >
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
              > >
              > >
              > > ---------------------------------
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/zookeeper/
              > >
              > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
              > to:
              > > zookeeper-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > >
              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
              > > Yahoo! Terms of Service.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ---------------------------------
              > > Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo!
              > > Movies.
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > __________________________________
              > Do you Yahoo!?
              > Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
              > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Sharing knowledge so that animals may benefit from
              > better care.
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              > To visit your group on the web, go to:
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/zookeeper/
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > zookeeper-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
              > Yahoo! Terms of Service.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              === message truncated ===





              __________________________________
              Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
              Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
              http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/
            • Roseanne Salter
              Stephen, Have you thought of taking anger management courses? ... === message truncated === __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo! s 10th
              Message 6 of 29 , Mar 3, 2005
                Stephen,

                Have you thought of taking anger management courses?


                --- Stephen Kolomyjec <lordkolomyjec@...>
                wrote:

                > well disagree as much as you like but the literature
                > dissagrees with you.
                > And i believe that i did say they weren't suitable
                > for a breeding program.
                > i'm done with this, because of stupid people like
                > you i am leaving this
                > list.
                > if you choose to ignore the wealth of research thats
                > been done then so
                > be it.
                > -stephen
                >
                > Roseanne Salter wrote:
                >
                > >Thanks, John. Most people think I'm talking about
                > >humans here. I never mentioned humans...(Although,
                > I
                > >have my convictions on the matter about
                > humans)...but
                > >I mentioned the penguins! Thats right, they should
                > be
                > >taken out of the breeding program if they arent
                > going
                > >to breed!!
                > >As for what Stephen said about the behavior being
                > >natural; I disagree. What I see as being natural is
                > >the way each gender was created different
                > physically &
                > >mentally. The physical differences accomadate each
                > >other naturally for the purpose of creating
                > offspring.
                > >Its basic biology.
                > >Its too bad some people in this group become angry
                > >over what I said instead of thinking about the
                > point I
                > >tried to make. Zoos are for breeding & caring for
                > the
                > >animals they keep & for educating the public about
                > >their situation on earth. If a zoo isent doing this
                > >because of public pressure, worrying about angering
                > >certain groups of people because of what is
                > percieved
                > >as political correctness now-a-days, they arent
                > doing
                > >their jobs!
                > >
                > >
                > >--- John Adams <j84adams@...> wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >>No offense stephen but while i dont agree with
                > what
                > >>Roseanne has to say. I must say that accusing
                > people
                > >>of "dumb ideas" is not the way to go about it. and
                > >>saying that it was a very ignorant thing to say
                > isnt
                > >>totally correct either. Some of the smartest
                > people
                > >>in the world where orginally critized for the
                > ideas
                > >>"ie.. Darwin". Being in the animal industry i do
                > >>understand that animals much like humans may be
                > >>"gay" and or"straight" however the simple fact of
                > >>the matter i think is not that these animals are
                > gay
                > >>but that every possible effort should be made to
                > >>save endangered species. Now i am not saying that
                > >>they should be force to breed but perhaps taking
                > >>them out of the breeding program and acquiring
                > >>breeding stock would be more suitable.
                > >>
                > >>Stephen Kolomyjec <lordkolomyjec@...>
                > >>wrote:wow, what an amazingly ignorant thing to
                > say.
                > >>Animal homosexual behavior is just as natural and
                > >>about as common as in is in humans, EVEN IN THE
                > >>WILD. It is extremely doubtful that hand raising
                > >>could have anyhting to do with it what so ever.
                > Its
                > >>not really surprising that people would try to
                > blame
                > >>human interference but then its only been within
                > the
                > >>last decade or so that scientist have opened up
                > >>their minds and stopped making up excuses for such
                > >>behavior in animals. The simple truth is some
                > >>animals like some people are just gay, get over
                > it.
                > >>You can try to FORCE them to breed and you might
                > get
                > >>a few to but some never will. For example some
                > >>seaguls that form lesbian pair bonds, FOR LIFE,
                > >>might mate with a male in the wild so the female
                > >>pair can raise a chick or they might steal eggs,
                > in
                > >>away adopting a youngster, and never mate with a
                > >>male their entire lives. This is in the wild
                > >>witnessed over and over again with noninterfering
                > >>methods. Wheres the excuses then for their "wrong
                > >>behavior"?
                > >>I do agree that one of a zoo's goals is to bred
                > >>endagered species but not every animal is really a
                > >>candidate.
                > >>And what happens if someone does try your dumb
                > idea
                > >>of altering their hormones, (shown in most animals
                > >>not to significantly effect sexuallity) and the
                > >>penguins just try even harder to "breed" with the
                > >>same gender.....should we just shoot them *rolls
                > >>eyes*.
                > >>But you don't have to take my word for any of
                > this,
                > >>because there are so many refference sources out
                > >>there that discuss animal sexuallity, one of the
                > >>largest collections of which is a book called
                > >>Biological Exuberance, maybe you should do some
                > >>valid research before you decide what behavior is
                > >>right or wrong in animals.
                > >>
                > >>-Stephen
                > >>
                > >>Roseanne wrote:
                > >>I read an article in Zoonewsdigest...another yahoo
                > >>group...about somepenguins in Germany. I think it
                > >>was about 6 penguins in Germany?Anyway, the
                > keepers
                > >>tried to seperate the "gay" penguins & set them
                > >>upwith penguins from sweden & it didnt work. The
                > zoo
                > >>recieved alot ofangry letters & calls about
                > >>seperating them trying to seperate them,so they
                > >>finally decided to let the penguins be the way
                > they
                > >>are.WHY??????? Is what I ask. Zoos are supposed to
                > >>breed their animals! These are an
                > >>endangeredspecies!!!! I have to say it is very
                > >>backward to stop the programmeant to HELP the
                > >>penguins, just because a bunch of nasty people
                > >>getupity & start "calling discrimination". These
                > >>animals are supposed tobe having offspring.
                > >>Something is wrong with them, & it should belooked
                > >>into on exactly how to help them. They need vet
                > >>treatment. Itcould be a hormone /chemical
                > >>imbalance...or as the moderator ofZoonewsdigest
                > >>(Peter) thinks; hand rearing. What ever the reason
                > >>fortheir behavior, it SHOULD be corrected!
                > >>
                > >>Sharing knowledge so that animals may benefit from
                > >>better care.
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>---------------------------------
                > >>Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >>
                > >> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                > >>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/zookeeper/
                > >>
                > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
                > to:
                > >>zookeeper-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > >>
                > >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
                > >>Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>---------------------------------
                > >>Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo!
                > >>Movies.
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >__________________________________
                > >Do you Yahoo!?
                > >Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
                > >http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >Sharing knowledge so that animals may benefit from
                > better care.
                > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                === message truncated ===





                __________________________________
                Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
                Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
                http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/
              • Roy Ayers
                Anyone that thinks you can change gay behavior is ignorant. Saying so does not mean someone needs anger management. But just saying thing like that, someting
                Message 7 of 29 , Mar 3, 2005
                  Anyone that thinks you can change gay behavior is
                  ignorant. Saying so does not mean someone needs anger
                  management. But just saying thing like that,
                  someting she obviosly knows nothing about makes them
                  ignorant. Homesexuality is as natural in nature as
                  hetrosexuality. In humans and anmals. And just because
                  hetrosexualality is the normal that does not make
                  homosexualality unatural. Thats igorant too. Thats
                  just like saying most people are right handed so that
                  natural and because thats so the people that are left
                  handed are unnatural. Roy



                  --- Roseanne Salter <kittycathoteltwo@...>
                  wrote:

                  >
                  > Stephen,
                  >
                  > Have you thought of taking anger management courses?
                  >
                  >
                  > --- Stephen Kolomyjec <lordkolomyjec@...>
                  > wrote:
                  >
                  > > well disagree as much as you like but the
                  > literature
                  > > dissagrees with you.
                  > > And i believe that i did say they weren't suitable
                  > > for a breeding program.
                  > > i'm done with this, because of stupid people like
                  > > you i am leaving this
                  > > list.
                  > > if you choose to ignore the wealth of research
                  > thats
                  > > been done then so
                  > > be it.
                  > > -stephen
                  > >
                  > > Roseanne Salter wrote:
                  > >
                  > > >Thanks, John. Most people think I'm talking about
                  > > >humans here. I never mentioned
                  > humans...(Although,
                  > > I
                  > > >have my convictions on the matter about
                  > > humans)...but
                  > > >I mentioned the penguins! Thats right, they
                  > should
                  > > be
                  > > >taken out of the breeding program if they arent
                  > > going
                  > > >to breed!!
                  > > >As for what Stephen said about the behavior being
                  > > >natural; I disagree. What I see as being natural
                  > is
                  > > >the way each gender was created different
                  > > physically &
                  > > >mentally. The physical differences accomadate
                  > each
                  > > >other naturally for the purpose of creating
                  > > offspring.
                  > > >Its basic biology.
                  > > >Its too bad some people in this group become
                  > angry
                  > > >over what I said instead of thinking about the
                  > > point I
                  > > >tried to make. Zoos are for breeding & caring for
                  > > the
                  > > >animals they keep & for educating the public
                  > about
                  > > >their situation on earth. If a zoo isent doing
                  > this
                  > > >because of public pressure, worrying about
                  > angering
                  > > >certain groups of people because of what is
                  > > percieved
                  > > >as political correctness now-a-days, they arent
                  > > doing
                  > > >their jobs!
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >--- John Adams <j84adams@...> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >>No offense stephen but while i dont agree with
                  > > what
                  > > >>Roseanne has to say. I must say that accusing
                  > > people
                  > > >>of "dumb ideas" is not the way to go about it.
                  > and
                  > > >>saying that it was a very ignorant thing to say
                  > > isnt
                  > > >>totally correct either. Some of the smartest
                  > > people
                  > > >>in the world where orginally critized for the
                  > > ideas
                  > > >>"ie.. Darwin". Being in the animal industry i do
                  > > >>understand that animals much like humans may be
                  > > >>"gay" and or"straight" however the simple fact
                  > of
                  > > >>the matter i think is not that these animals are
                  > > gay
                  > > >>but that every possible effort should be made to
                  > > >>save endangered species. Now i am not saying
                  > that
                  > > >>they should be force to breed but perhaps taking
                  > > >>them out of the breeding program and acquiring
                  > > >>breeding stock would be more suitable.
                  > > >>
                  > > >>Stephen Kolomyjec <lordkolomyjec@...>
                  > > >>wrote:wow, what an amazingly ignorant thing to
                  > > say.
                  > > >>Animal homosexual behavior is just as natural
                  > and
                  > > >>about as common as in is in humans, EVEN IN THE
                  > > >>WILD. It is extremely doubtful that hand raising
                  > > >>could have anyhting to do with it what so ever.
                  > > Its
                  > > >>not really surprising that people would try to
                  > > blame
                  > > >>human interference but then its only been within
                  > > the
                  > > >>last decade or so that scientist have opened up
                  > > >>their minds and stopped making up excuses for
                  > such
                  > > >>behavior in animals. The simple truth is some
                  > > >>animals like some people are just gay, get over
                  > > it.
                  > > >>You can try to FORCE them to breed and you might
                  > > get
                  > > >>a few to but some never will. For example some
                  > > >>seaguls that form lesbian pair bonds, FOR LIFE,
                  > > >>might mate with a male in the wild so the female
                  > > >>pair can raise a chick or they might steal eggs,
                  > > in
                  > > >>away adopting a youngster, and never mate with a
                  > > >>male their entire lives. This is in the wild
                  > > >>witnessed over and over again with
                  > noninterfering
                  > > >>methods. Wheres the excuses then for their
                  > "wrong
                  > > >>behavior"?
                  > > >>I do agree that one of a zoo's goals is to bred
                  > > >>endagered species but not every animal is really
                  > a
                  > > >>candidate.
                  > > >>And what happens if someone does try your dumb
                  > > idea
                  > > >>of altering their hormones, (shown in most
                  > animals
                  > > >>not to significantly effect sexuallity) and the
                  > > >>penguins just try even harder to "breed" with
                  > the
                  > > >>same gender.....should we just shoot them *rolls
                  > > >>eyes*.
                  > > >>But you don't have to take my word for any of
                  > > this,
                  > > >>because there are so many refference sources out
                  > > >>there that discuss animal sexuallity, one of the
                  > > >>largest collections of which is a book called
                  > > >>Biological Exuberance, maybe you should do some
                  > > >>valid research before you decide what behavior
                  > is
                  > > >>right or wrong in animals.
                  > > >>
                  > > >>-Stephen
                  > > >>
                  > > >>Roseanne wrote:
                  > > >>I read an article in Zoonewsdigest...another
                  > yahoo
                  > > >>group...about somepenguins in Germany. I think
                  > it
                  > > >>was about 6 penguins in Germany?Anyway, the
                  > > keepers
                  > > >>tried to seperate the "gay" penguins & set them
                  > > >>upwith penguins from sweden & it didnt work. The
                  > > zoo
                  > > >>recieved alot ofangry letters & calls about
                  > > >>seperating them trying to seperate them,so they
                  > > >>finally decided to let the penguins be the way
                  > > they
                  > > >>are.WHY??????? Is what I ask. Zoos are supposed
                  > to
                  > > >>breed their animals! These are an
                  > > >>endangeredspecies!!!! I have to say it is very
                  > > >>backward to stop the programmeant to HELP the
                  > > >>penguins, just because a bunch of nasty people
                  > > >>getupity & start "calling discrimination". These
                  > > >>animals are supposed tobe having offspring.
                  > > >>Something is wrong with them, & it should
                  > belooked
                  > > >>into on exactly how to help them. They need vet
                  > > >>treatment. Itcould be a hormone /chemical
                  > > >>imbalance...or as the moderator ofZoonewsdigest
                  > > >>(Peter) thinks; hand rearing. What ever the
                  > reason
                  > > >>fortheir behavior, it SHOULD be corrected!
                  > > >>
                  > > >>Sharing knowledge so that animals may benefit
                  > from
                  > > >>better care.
                  > > >>
                  > > >>
                  > > >>Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
                  > > >>
                  > > >>
                  > > >>---------------------------------
                  > > >>Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > > >>
                  > > >> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  > > >>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/zookeeper/
                  > > >>
                  > > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
                  > > to:
                  > > >>zookeeper-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  === message truncated ===


                  =====
                  http://pages.ivillage.com/royayers2002/




                  __________________________________
                  Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
                  Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
                  http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/
                • Ruthanne
                  Honestly, it seems as though some members of this group don t have the maturity level they should have. No offence, but I should hope that in the future a
                  Message 8 of 29 , Mar 6, 2005
                    Honestly, it seems as though some members of this group don't have
                    the maturity level they should have. No offence, but I should hope
                    that in the future a group of adult professionals, like yourselves,
                    will be able to discuss/dispute/debate a topic without throwing
                    temper tantrums and calling eachother names. I, myself, always love a
                    good debate, and I don't want to have this group ban controversial
                    topics because of the actions of a few people.

                    Also, please remember that there are younger people here who look up
                    to you and hang on your every word because you are what they would
                    like to be.

                    Thank you.
                    Ruthanne
                    High School Junior
                  • Jennifer
                    Ruthanne - I think what has gotten so many of us riled up is the fact that part of our career involves educating the public about the animals that we work
                    Message 9 of 29 , Mar 9, 2005
                      Ruthanne - I think what has gotten so many of us riled up is the fact
                      that part of our career involves educating the public about the
                      animals that we work with. Without educating and creating awareness
                      abnout species that need help, the funds and support to give help
                      don't exist. When educating the public, fact, not opinion, is what
                      should be expressed, and personally (as I can't speak for everyone
                      else here), to hear (or rather, read) a very opinionated post (the
                      forceful capitalization regarding the subject is what really got to
                      me), stated as a fact from someone in the same field is quite
                      startling. Sure, there are plenty of places to discuss one's opinion
                      on homosexuality, whether in people or other animals, but this is not
                      one. Were she to have asked how homosexuality in the penguins might
                      have arisen, without expressing such a strong position, you would have
                      seen a plethora of different posts, most surely what you wish you had
                      seen instead of the angry posts that ensued. I expect people in my
                      field to be educated and have enough of a background in science to be
                      able to discuss a topic like this in an adult way, as it seems you
                      yourself expect as well. I have to stand up for myself and the others
                      that you may feel have attacked this individual in the group by saying
                      that she was not leaving herself open to discuss the information in an
                      educated way. She appeared to put forth her opinion that
                      homosexuality, even in a penguin, was wrong and unnatural.
                      ~Jennifer
                      keeper

                      --- In zookeeper@yahoogroups.com, "Ruthanne" <roophie@y...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Honestly, it seems as though some members of this group don't have
                      > the maturity level they should have. No offence, but I should hope
                      > that in the future a group of adult professionals, like yourselves,
                      > will be able to discuss/dispute/debate a topic without throwing
                      > temper tantrums and calling eachother names. I, myself, always love a
                      > good debate, and I don't want to have this group ban controversial
                      > topics because of the actions of a few people.
                      >
                      > Also, please remember that there are younger people here who look up
                      > to you and hang on your every word because you are what they would
                      > like to be.
                      >
                      > Thank you.
                      > Ruthanne
                      > High School Junior
                    • Ruthanne
                      Thank you, Jennifer. I agree with you completely. There was definitely not just one person to blame here. The first post was inappropriate, but so were some
                      Message 10 of 29 , Mar 11, 2005
                        Thank you, Jennifer. I agree with you completely. There was
                        definitely not just one person to blame here. The first post was
                        inappropriate, but so were some that followed. Thank you for your
                        reply. :)

                        Ruthanne
                        High School Junior

                        --- In zookeeper@yahoogroups.com, "Jennifer" <jennifer.naggy@c...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Ruthanne - I think what has gotten so many of us riled up is the
                        fact
                        > that part of our career involves educating the public about the
                        > animals that we work with. Without educating and creating awareness
                        > abnout species that need help, the funds and support to give help
                        > don't exist. When educating the public, fact, not opinion, is what
                        > should be expressed, and personally (as I can't speak for everyone
                        > else here), to hear (or rather, read) a very opinionated post (the
                        > forceful capitalization regarding the subject is what really got to
                        > me), stated as a fact from someone in the same field is quite
                        > startling. Sure, there are plenty of places to discuss one's
                        opinion
                        > on homosexuality, whether in people or other animals, but this is
                        not
                        > one. Were she to have asked how homosexuality in the penguins might
                        > have arisen, without expressing such a strong position, you would
                        have
                        > seen a plethora of different posts, most surely what you wish you
                        had
                        > seen instead of the angry posts that ensued. I expect people in my
                        > field to be educated and have enough of a background in science to
                        be
                        > able to discuss a topic like this in an adult way, as it seems you
                        > yourself expect as well. I have to stand up for myself and the
                        others
                        > that you may feel have attacked this individual in the group by
                        saying
                        > that she was not leaving herself open to discuss the information in
                        an
                        > educated way. She appeared to put forth her opinion that
                        > homosexuality, even in a penguin, was wrong and unnatural.
                        > ~Jennifer
                        > keeper
                        >
                        > --- In zookeeper@yahoogroups.com, "Ruthanne" <roophie@y...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Honestly, it seems as though some members of this group don't
                        have
                        > > the maturity level they should have. No offence, but I should
                        hope
                        > > that in the future a group of adult professionals, like
                        yourselves,
                        > > will be able to discuss/dispute/debate a topic without throwing
                        > > temper tantrums and calling eachother names. I, myself, always
                        love a
                        > > good debate, and I don't want to have this group ban
                        controversial
                        > > topics because of the actions of a few people.
                        > >
                        > > Also, please remember that there are younger people here who look
                        up
                        > > to you and hang on your every word because you are what they
                        would
                        > > like to be.
                        > >
                        > > Thank you.
                        > > Ruthanne
                        > > High School Junior
                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.