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Re: Fwd: I need opinions

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  • carnivoreau
    A group of zookeepers liasing internationally can be such a useful tool when used appropriately. However, when this forum is used in a manner that is
    Message 1 of 13 , Dec 31, 2001
      A group of zookeepers liasing internationally can be such a useful
      tool when used appropriately. However, when this forum is used in a
      manner that is reminiscent of lunchroom gossiping it becomes quite
      pathetic. I believe the subject below falls under the latter
      category.

      The comments are entirely unprofessional both for yourself and the
      institution for which you are employed. And while I won't offer any
      comments on the behaviour of the "new keeper" I certainly hope that
      he does not view your e-mails. There are laws in place to protect
      peoples rights in employment situations and by airing your dirty
      laundry publicly, you have broken several of them (on second
      thoughts, perhaps it would be better if he did see them).

      This letter has prompted me to cancel my subscription to this group
      as I have no time for such childishness.

      To the professional keepers out there, keep making a difference and I
      sincerely apologise that I will no longer participate in discussions
      under this group.


      David Schaap




      --- In zookeeper@y..., Jennifer Burgess <ranspenny@y...> wrote:
      >
      > --- Jennifer Burgess <ranspenny@y...> wrote:
      > > Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 15:33:42 -0800 (PST)
      > > From: Jennifer Burgess <ranspenny@y...>
      > > Subject: I need opinions
      > > To: zookeeeper@y...
      > >
      > > Hi everyone.... I have an issue I would like some
      > > feedback on. We have a new keeper at our zoo. He
      > > has
      > > no experience in the zoo field and only a little
      > > with
      > > animals mostly reptiles. (we're hard up for help)
      > > anyway... the particular area of the zoo he's
      > > working
      > > on includes animals like.... White Handed Gibbons,
      > > Ring- Tailed Lemurs, Turkey Vulture, New Guinea
      > > Singing Dog, Cockatoos, and White Tigers. Out of
      > > these animals there are 2 that he is having a really
      > > hard time with. One of our White Tigers jumps and
      > > roars at him all the time. Hair stands up and
      > > everything... This behavior was like that since day
      > > 1
      > > and seems to be getting worse. This is the first
      > > time
      > > the tiger has EVER done this. (male, 4 years old)
      > > The
      > > other animal is our White Handed Gibbon. (41 years
      > > old, male) He dislikes men in general and is giving
      > > the keeper the same hard time he gives all men. It
      > > has come to my attention that the keeper in anger
      > > towards these animals is yelling and cursing at
      > > them.
      > > Here's an example... He bent down and tried to
      > > "talk
      > > sweet" to the tiger and the tiger jumped up and
      > > roared
      > > at him. He stood up yelled, F**K you then! another
      > > example.... He offered the gibbon a canister of
      > > raisins outside the fence so he could get his own
      > > treat and the gibbon went after his hand instead and
      > > he shouted the same thing and removed the treats and
      > > now refuses to offer him any treats at all. He
      > > often
      > > says that certain animals are "cool" with him and
      > > others that are not are mean and nasty. I have
      > > tried
      > > to explain to the keeper that these animals have to
      > > get used to him on their terms not his. Pushing
      > > yourself on them will not work. He doesn't seem to
      > > get it. Now, please understand that I am not
      > > "little
      > > miss sweet thing" that never utters a foul word. I
      > > cuss on a daily basis. There has been occasions
      > > where
      > > I have gotten frustrated with animals that won't
      > > cooperate like.... our llama that likes to stand
      > > where you need to rake, will eat my hair, and burp
      > > in
      > > your face. Normally this results in me saying
      > > something like... "Will you please leave me the
      > > hell
      > > alone!" in a tone similar to begging. Sometimes I
      > > even
      > > jump up and down like a kid not getting anything in
      > > a
      > > candy store until I take hold of my senses and think
      > > of another approach to try. All this though is more
      > > out of frustration never anger. I have a hard time
      > > ever being angry at my animals. His reaction to the
      > > animals really bothers me and I'm trying to decide
      > > the
      > > proper action to take. Anyway.... this is my
      > > problem
      > > and I would LOVE some opinions!
      > >
      > > Thanks so much, Jenn
      > >
      > > __________________________________________________
      > > Do You Yahoo!?
      > > Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
      > > http://greetings.yahoo.com
      > >
      >
      >
      > __________________________________________________
      > Do You Yahoo!?
      > Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
      > http://greetings.yahoo.com
    • Alex Mohr
      Dear Mr Schaap, If you have been reading this list then you already know it is not a truly professional one. If real professionalism is what you want I
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 2, 2002
        Dear Mr Schaap,

        If you have been reading this list then you already know it is not a truly "professional" one. If real professionalism is what you want I suggest you try the Zoobiology list. The Zookeeper list is much more informal so we may be able to discuss matters that our "superiors" may not be too thrilled with. By the way, different zoos in different countries have different views about what thier keepers may may not discuss outside the zoo. There are some here in the US that don't want thier keepers to use even Zoobiology!

        I am sorry you feel you must leave the group.

        Goodbye,
        Alex Mohr
        Keeper III

        _____________________________________________________________
        yourname@...... Visit http://www.wonderferret.com to get your own free e-mail from the ferret!
      • Jay
        Bummer that Dave felt this way, but it s always good to stand by one s beliefs. I, for one, don t believe that the subject he quoted falls under lunchroom
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 2, 2002
          Bummer that Dave felt this way, but it's always good to stand by one's beliefs.  I, for one, don't believe that the subject he quoted falls under "lunchroom gossiping" -- of course, I never visit lunchrooms.  To me, it seemed like an honest appeal for information on how to deal with an animal care person who just wasn't quite cutting the mustard.  Nothing unprofessional about that; quite the contrary.
           
          What strikes _me_ as unprofessional would be Dave's invoking of "laws", and claiming that laws have been broken, here.  Sorry, but if Dave was worth a damn as a jailhouse lawyer, he'd not be hanging around a zoo forum.  This board originates in the USA, and Dave originates from the UK or Canada (note the spelling of "behavior" in his pissy note).  Sorry, but USA law applies here.  Mind you, I'm no lawyer -- I just happen to be friends with a few. 
           
          It seems to me that if "Dave" was a professional, he'd evaluate the material within the context of the zoological milleu, and respond accordingly.
           
          The question that Jenn brought to this forum was valid, and many of us have pondered the same issue, or closely related issues, time and again.
           
          The question of how to deal with animal care staff who provide suboptimal care is an issue that is always with us, and "Dave's" little tantrum doesn't change a thing.
           
          Jay
          -----Original Message-----
          From: carnivoreau [mailto:twosharp@...]
          Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 7:33 PM
          To: zookeeper@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [zookeeper] Re: Fwd: I need opinions

          A group of zookeepers liasing internationally can be such a useful
          tool when used appropriately. However, when this forum is used in a
          manner that is reminiscent of lunchroom gossiping it becomes quite
          pathetic. I believe the subject below falls under the latter
          category.

          The comments are entirely unprofessional both for yourself and the
          institution for which you are employed. And while I won't offer any
          comments on the behaviour of the "new keeper" I certainly hope that
          he does not view your e-mails. There are laws in place to protect
          peoples rights in employment situations and by airing your dirty
          laundry publicly, you have broken several of them (on second
          thoughts, perhaps it would be better if he did see them).

          This letter has prompted me to cancel my subscription to this group
          as I have no time for such childishness.

          To the professional keepers out there, keep making a difference and I
          sincerely apologise that I will no longer participate in discussions
          under this group.


          David Schaap




          --- In zookeeper@y..., Jennifer Burgess <ranspenny@y...> wrote:
          >
          > --- Jennifer Burgess <ranspenny@y...> wrote:
          > > Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 15:33:42 -0800 (PST)
          > > From: Jennifer Burgess <ranspenny@y...>
          > > Subject: I need opinions
          > > To: zookeeeper@y...
          > >
          > > Hi everyone....  I have an issue I would like some
          > > feedback on.  We have a new keeper at our zoo.  He
          > > has
          > > no experience in the zoo field and only a little
          > > with
          > > animals mostly reptiles.  (we're hard up for help)
          > > anyway...  the particular area of the zoo he's
          > > working
          > > on includes animals like....  White Handed Gibbons,
          > > Ring- Tailed Lemurs, Turkey Vulture, New Guinea
          > > Singing Dog, Cockatoos, and White Tigers.  Out of
          > > these animals there are 2 that he is having a really
          > > hard time with.  One of our White Tigers jumps and
          > > roars at him all the time.  Hair stands up and
          > > everything... This behavior was like that since day
          > > 1
          > > and seems to be getting worse.  This is the first
          > > time
          > > the tiger has EVER done this. (male, 4 years old)
          > > The
          > > other animal is our White Handed Gibbon.  (41 years
          > > old, male)  He dislikes men in general and is giving
          > > the keeper the same hard time he gives all men.  It
          > > has come to my attention that the keeper in anger
          > > towards these animals is yelling and cursing at
          > > them.
          > > Here's an example...  He bent down and tried to
          > > "talk
          > > sweet" to the tiger and the tiger jumped up and
          > > roared
          > > at him.  He stood up yelled, F**K you then!  another
          > > example....  He offered the gibbon a canister of
          > > raisins outside the fence so he could get his own
          > > treat and the gibbon went after his hand instead and
          > > he shouted the same thing and removed the treats and
          > > now refuses to offer him any treats at all.  He
          > > often
          > > says that certain animals are "cool" with him and
          > > others that are not are mean and nasty.  I have
          > > tried
          > > to explain to the keeper that these animals have to
          > > get used to him on their terms not his.  Pushing
          > > yourself on them will not work.  He doesn't seem to
          > > get it.  Now,  please understand that I am not
          > > "little
          > > miss sweet thing" that never utters a foul word.  I
          > > cuss on a daily basis.  There has been occasions
          > > where
          > > I have gotten frustrated with animals that won't
          > > cooperate like....  our llama that likes to stand
          > > where you need to rake, will eat my hair, and burp
          > > in
          > > your face.  Normally this results in me saying
          > > something like...  "Will you please leave me the
          > > hell
          > > alone!" in a tone similar to begging. Sometimes I
          > > even
          > > jump up and down like a kid not getting anything in
          > > a
          > > candy store until I take hold of my senses and think
          > > of another approach to try.  All this though is more
          > > out of frustration never anger.  I have a hard time
          > > ever being angry at my animals.  His reaction to the
          > > animals really bothers me and I'm trying to decide
          > > the
          > > proper action to take.  Anyway....  this is my
          > > problem
          > > and I would LOVE some opinions!
          > >
          > > Thanks so much, Jenn
          > >
          > > __________________________________________________
          > > Do You Yahoo!?
          > > Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
          > > http://greetings.yahoo.com
          > >
          >
          >
          > __________________________________________________
          > Do You Yahoo!?
          > Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
          > http://greetings.yahoo.com




          Sharing knowledge so that animals may benefit from better care.

          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
        • Jennifer Burgess
          To everyone, I can t begin to express how embarrassed and hurt I feel. It was never my intentions to lower the standards of this forum. I am extremely sorry
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 2, 2002
            To everyone,

            I can't begin to express how embarrassed and hurt I
            feel. It was never my intentions to lower the
            standards of this forum. I am extremely sorry to all
            of you that I have offended especially to you that
            felt compelled to leave the group. I posted that
            message with the hopes of getting objective solutions
            to a sensitive subject from other keepers who had
            experienced something similar. I obviously let my
            personal frustrations cloud my judgment. In the
            future I will only use this forum for truly
            professional inquiries. Again, you have my sincerest
            apologies.

            Jenn










            --- carnivoreau <twosharp@...> wrote:
            > A group of zookeepers liasing internationally can be
            > such a useful
            > tool when used appropriately. However, when this
            > forum is used in a
            > manner that is reminiscent of lunchroom gossiping it
            > becomes quite
            > pathetic. I believe the subject below falls under
            > the latter
            > category.
            >
            > The comments are entirely unprofessional both for
            > yourself and the
            > institution for which you are employed. And while I
            > won't offer any
            > comments on the behaviour of the "new keeper" I
            > certainly hope that
            > he does not view your e-mails. There are laws in
            > place to protect
            > peoples rights in employment situations and by
            > airing your dirty
            > laundry publicly, you have broken several of them
            > (on second
            > thoughts, perhaps it would be better if he did see
            > them).
            >
            > This letter has prompted me to cancel my
            > subscription to this group
            > as I have no time for such childishness.
            >
            > To the professional keepers out there, keep making a
            > difference and I
            > sincerely apologise that I will no longer
            > participate in discussions
            > under this group.
            >
            >
            > David Schaap
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In zookeeper@y..., Jennifer Burgess
            > <ranspenny@y...> wrote:
            > >
            > > --- Jennifer Burgess <ranspenny@y...> wrote:
            > > > Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 15:33:42 -0800 (PST)
            > > > From: Jennifer Burgess <ranspenny@y...>
            > > > Subject: I need opinions
            > > > To: zookeeeper@y...
            > > >
            > > > Hi everyone.... I have an issue I would like
            > some
            > > > feedback on. We have a new keeper at our zoo.
            > He
            > > > has
            > > > no experience in the zoo field and only a little
            > > > with
            > > > animals mostly reptiles. (we're hard up for
            > help)
            > > > anyway... the particular area of the zoo he's
            > > > working
            > > > on includes animals like.... White Handed
            > Gibbons,
            > > > Ring- Tailed Lemurs, Turkey Vulture, New Guinea
            > > > Singing Dog, Cockatoos, and White Tigers. Out
            > of
            > > > these animals there are 2 that he is having a
            > really
            > > > hard time with. One of our White Tigers jumps
            > and
            > > > roars at him all the time. Hair stands up and
            > > > everything... This behavior was like that since
            > day
            > > > 1
            > > > and seems to be getting worse. This is the
            > first
            > > > time
            > > > the tiger has EVER done this. (male, 4 years
            > old)
            > > > The
            > > > other animal is our White Handed Gibbon. (41
            > years
            > > > old, male) He dislikes men in general and is
            > giving
            > > > the keeper the same hard time he gives all men.
            > It
            > > > has come to my attention that the keeper in
            > anger
            > > > towards these animals is yelling and cursing at
            > > > them.
            > > > Here's an example... He bent down and tried to
            > > > "talk
            > > > sweet" to the tiger and the tiger jumped up and
            > > > roared
            > > > at him. He stood up yelled, F**K you then!
            > another
            > > > example.... He offered the gibbon a canister of
            > > > raisins outside the fence so he could get his
            > own
            > > > treat and the gibbon went after his hand instead
            > and
            > > > he shouted the same thing and removed the treats
            > and
            > > > now refuses to offer him any treats at all. He
            > > > often
            > > > says that certain animals are "cool" with him
            > and
            > > > others that are not are mean and nasty. I have
            > > > tried
            > > > to explain to the keeper that these animals have
            > to
            > > > get used to him on their terms not his. Pushing
            > > > yourself on them will not work. He doesn't seem
            > to
            > > > get it. Now, please understand that I am not
            > > > "little
            > > > miss sweet thing" that never utters a foul word.
            > I
            > > > cuss on a daily basis. There has been occasions
            > > > where
            > > > I have gotten frustrated with animals that won't
            > > > cooperate like.... our llama that likes to
            > stand
            > > > where you need to rake, will eat my hair, and
            > burp
            > > > in
            > > > your face. Normally this results in me saying
            > > > something like... "Will you please leave me the
            > > > hell
            > > > alone!" in a tone similar to begging. Sometimes
            > I
            > > > even
            > > > jump up and down like a kid not getting anything
            > in
            > > > a
            > > > candy store until I take hold of my senses and
            > think
            > > > of another approach to try. All this though is
            > more
            > > > out of frustration never anger. I have a hard
            > time
            > > > ever being angry at my animals. His reaction to
            > the
            > > > animals really bothers me and I'm trying to
            > decide
            > > > the
            > > > proper action to take. Anyway.... this is my
            > > > problem
            > > > and I would LOVE some opinions!
            > > >
            > > > Thanks so much, Jenn
            > > >
            > > >
            > __________________________________________________
            > > > Do You Yahoo!?
            > > > Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
            > > > http://greetings.yahoo.com
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > > __________________________________________________
            > > Do You Yahoo!?
            > > Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
            > > http://greetings.yahoo.com
            >
            >
            >


            __________________________________________________
            Do You Yahoo!?
            Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
            http://greetings.yahoo.com
          • Ann Orn
            Thank you Alex - I echo your sentiments! If keepers can t speak freely here, in our own forum, then we will truly lose a valuable commodity - the combined
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 2, 2002
              Thank you Alex - I echo your sentiments! If keepers can't speak freely
              here, in our own forum, then we will truly lose a valuable commodity - the
              combined wisdom and experience of our peers.
              Ann Orn
              Hoofstock Keeper - Retired
              Heritage Park Zoo
              Prescott, AZ

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Alex Mohr" <zoolady@...>
              To: <zookeeper@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 5:43 AM
              Subject: Re: [zookeeper] Re: Fwd: I need opinions


              Dear Mr Schaap,

              If you have been reading this list then you already know it is not a
              truly "professional" one. If real professionalism is what you want I suggest
              you try the Zoobiology list. The Zookeeper list is much more informal so
              we may be able to discuss matters that our "superiors" may not be too
              thrilled with. By the way, different zoos in different countries have
              different views about what thier keepers may may not discuss outside the
              zoo. There are some here in the US that don't want thier keepers to use even
              Zoobiology!

              I am sorry you feel you must leave the group.

              Goodbye,
              Alex Mohr
              Keeper III

              _____________________________________________________________
              yourname@...... Visit http://www.wonderferret.com to get your
              own free e-mail from the ferret!



              Sharing knowledge so that animals may benefit from better care.

              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            • Jennifer Burgess
              Jay and Alex, Thanks. Jenn ... === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings
              Message 6 of 13 , Jan 2, 2002
                Jay and Alex,

                Thanks.

                Jenn
                --- Jay <pachyman@...> wrote:
                > Bummer that Dave felt this way, but it's always good
                > to stand by one's
                > beliefs. I, for one, don't believe that the subject
                > he quoted falls under
                > "lunchroom gossiping" -- of course, I never visit
                > lunchrooms. To me, it
                > seemed like an honest appeal for information on how
                > to deal with an animal
                > care person who just wasn't quite cutting the
                > mustard. Nothing
                > unprofessional about that; quite the contrary.
                >
                > What strikes _me_ as unprofessional would be Dave's
                > invoking of "laws", and
                > claiming that laws have been broken, here. Sorry,
                > but if Dave was worth a
                > damn as a jailhouse lawyer, he'd not be hanging
                > around a zoo forum. This
                > board originates in the USA, and Dave originates
                > from the UK or Canada (note
                > the spelling of "behavior" in his pissy note).
                > Sorry, but USA law applies
                > here. Mind you, I'm no lawyer -- I just happen to
                > be friends with a few.
                >
                > It seems to me that if "Dave" was a professional,
                > he'd evaluate the material
                > within the context of the zoological milleu, and
                > respond accordingly.
                >
                > The question that Jenn brought to this forum was
                > valid, and many of us have
                > pondered the same issue, or closely related issues,
                > time and again.
                >
                > The question of how to deal with animal care staff
                > who provide suboptimal
                > care is an issue that is always with us, and
                > "Dave's" little tantrum doesn't
                > change a thing.
                >
                > Jay
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: carnivoreau [mailto:twosharp@...]
                > Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 7:33 PM
                > To: zookeeper@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [zookeeper] Re: Fwd: I need opinions
                >
                >
                > A group of zookeepers liasing internationally can
                > be such a useful
                > tool when used appropriately. However, when this
                > forum is used in a
                > manner that is reminiscent of lunchroom gossiping
                > it becomes quite
                > pathetic. I believe the subject below falls under
                > the latter
                > category.
                >
                > The comments are entirely unprofessional both for
                > yourself and the
                > institution for which you are employed. And while
                > I won't offer any
                > comments on the behaviour of the "new keeper" I
                > certainly hope that
                > he does not view your e-mails. There are laws in
                > place to protect
                > peoples rights in employment situations and by
                > airing your dirty
                > laundry publicly, you have broken several of them
                > (on second
                > thoughts, perhaps it would be better if he did see
                > them).
                >
                > This letter has prompted me to cancel my
                > subscription to this group
                > as I have no time for such childishness.
                >
                > To the professional keepers out there, keep making
                > a difference and I
                > sincerely apologise that I will no longer
                > participate in discussions
                > under this group.
                >
                >
                > David Schaap
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In zookeeper@y..., Jennifer Burgess
                > <ranspenny@y...> wrote:
                > >
                > > --- Jennifer Burgess <ranspenny@y...> wrote:
                > > > Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 15:33:42 -0800 (PST)
                > > > From: Jennifer Burgess <ranspenny@y...>
                > > > Subject: I need opinions
                > > > To: zookeeeper@y...
                > > >
                > > > Hi everyone.... I have an issue I would like
                > some
                > > > feedback on. We have a new keeper at our zoo.
                > He
                > > > has
                > > > no experience in the zoo field and only a
                > little
                > > > with
                > > > animals mostly reptiles. (we're hard up for
                > help)
                > > > anyway... the particular area of the zoo he's
                > > > working
                > > > on includes animals like.... White Handed
                > Gibbons,
                > > > Ring- Tailed Lemurs, Turkey Vulture, New
                > Guinea
                > > > Singing Dog, Cockatoos, and White Tigers. Out
                > of
                > > > these animals there are 2 that he is having a
                > really
                > > > hard time with. One of our White Tigers jumps
                > and
                > > > roars at him all the time. Hair stands up and
                > > > everything... This behavior was like that
                > since day
                > > > 1
                > > > and seems to be getting worse. This is the
                > first
                > > > time
                > > > the tiger has EVER done this. (male, 4 years
                > old)
                > > > The
                > > > other animal is our White Handed Gibbon. (41
                > years
                > > > old, male) He dislikes men in general and is
                > giving
                > > > the keeper the same hard time he gives all
                > men. It
                > > > has come to my attention that the keeper in
                > anger
                > > > towards these animals is yelling and cursing
                > at
                > > > them.
                > > > Here's an example... He bent down and tried
                > to
                > > > "talk
                > > > sweet" to the tiger and the tiger jumped up
                > and
                > > > roared
                > > > at him. He stood up yelled, F**K you then!
                > another
                > > > example.... He offered the gibbon a canister
                > of
                > > > raisins outside the fence so he could get his
                > own
                > > > treat and the gibbon went after his hand
                > instead and
                > > > he shouted the same thing and removed the
                > treats and
                > > > now refuses to offer him any treats at all.
                > He
                > > > often
                > > > says that certain animals are "cool" with him
                > and
                > > > others that are not are mean and nasty. I
                > have
                > > > tried
                > > > to explain to the keeper that these animals
                > have to
                > > > get used to him on their terms not his.
                > Pushing
                > > > yourself on them will not work. He doesn't
                > seem to
                > > > get it. Now, please understand that I am not
                > > > "little
                > > > miss sweet thing" that never utters a foul
                > word. I
                > > > cuss on a daily basis. There has been
                > occasions
                > > > where
                > > > I have gotten frustrated with animals that
                > won't
                > > > cooperate like.... our llama that likes to
                > stand
                > > > where you need to rake, will eat my hair, and
                > burp
                > > > in
                > > > your face. Normally this results in me saying
                > > > something like... "Will you please leave me
                > the
                > > > hell
                > > > alone!" in a tone similar to begging.
                > Sometimes I
                > > > even
                > > > jump up and down like a kid not getting
                > anything in
                > > > a
                > > > candy store until I take hold of my senses and
                > think
                > > > of another approach to try. All this though
                > is more
                > > > out of frustration never anger. I have a hard
                > time
                >
                === message truncated ===


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              • tricon7
                I have read of your problems with said new keeper with interest. The guy doesn t seem to understand that these unpredictable animals act the way they do
                Message 7 of 13 , Jan 2, 2002
                  I have read of your problems with said new keeper with interest. The
                  guy doesn't seem to understand that these unpredictable animals act
                  the way they do because.....they're animals! They don't always return
                  kindness for kindness. Maybe he'll pick up this lesson and grow into a
                  seasoned keeper in time. He doesn't have any experience to fall back
                  on, as you said, being a new keeper.

                  Btw, what zoo do you work at? I noticed that you have a white tiger. I
                  used to work with them myself.
                • Ann Orn
                  Jennifer, You weren t wrong. And you asked the right people for input, too. Keep up the great work. Ann HPZ ... From: Jennifer Burgess
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jan 2, 2002
                    Jennifer,
                    You weren't wrong. And you asked the right people for input, too. Keep up
                    the great work.
                    Ann
                    HPZ

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Jennifer Burgess" <ranspenny@...>
                    To: <zookeeper@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 8:38 PM
                    Subject: Re: [zookeeper] Re: Fwd: I need opinions


                    To everyone,

                    I can't begin to express how embarrassed and hurt I
                    feel. It was never my intentions to lower the
                    standards of this forum. I am extremely sorry to all
                    of you that I have offended especially to you that
                    felt compelled to leave the group. I posted that
                    message with the hopes of getting objective solutions
                    to a sensitive subject from other keepers who had
                    experienced something similar. I obviously let my
                    personal frustrations cloud my judgment. In the
                    future I will only use this forum for truly
                    professional inquiries. Again, you have my sincerest
                    apologies.

                    Jenn










                    --- carnivoreau <twosharp@...> wrote:
                    > A group of zookeepers liasing internationally can be
                    > such a useful
                    > tool when used appropriately. However, when this
                    > forum is used in a
                    > manner that is reminiscent of lunchroom gossiping it
                    > becomes quite
                    > pathetic. I believe the subject below falls under
                    > the latter
                    > category.
                    >
                    > The comments are entirely unprofessional both for
                    > yourself and the
                    > institution for which you are employed. And while I
                    > won't offer any
                    > comments on the behaviour of the "new keeper" I
                    > certainly hope that
                    > he does not view your e-mails. There are laws in
                    > place to protect
                    > peoples rights in employment situations and by
                    > airing your dirty
                    > laundry publicly, you have broken several of them
                    > (on second
                    > thoughts, perhaps it would be better if he did see
                    > them).
                    >
                    > This letter has prompted me to cancel my
                    > subscription to this group
                    > as I have no time for such childishness.
                    >
                    > To the professional keepers out there, keep making a
                    > difference and I
                    > sincerely apologise that I will no longer
                    > participate in discussions
                    > under this group.
                    >
                    >
                    > David Schaap
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In zookeeper@y..., Jennifer Burgess
                    > <ranspenny@y...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > --- Jennifer Burgess <ranspenny@y...> wrote:
                    > > > Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 15:33:42 -0800 (PST)
                    > > > From: Jennifer Burgess <ranspenny@y...>
                    > > > Subject: I need opinions
                    > > > To: zookeeeper@y...
                    > > >
                    > > > Hi everyone.... I have an issue I would like
                    > some
                    > > > feedback on. We have a new keeper at our zoo.
                    > He
                    > > > has
                    > > > no experience in the zoo field and only a little
                    > > > with
                    > > > animals mostly reptiles. (we're hard up for
                    > help)
                    > > > anyway... the particular area of the zoo he's
                    > > > working
                    > > > on includes animals like.... White Handed
                    > Gibbons,
                    > > > Ring- Tailed Lemurs, Turkey Vulture, New Guinea
                    > > > Singing Dog, Cockatoos, and White Tigers. Out
                    > of
                    > > > these animals there are 2 that he is having a
                    > really
                    > > > hard time with. One of our White Tigers jumps
                    > and
                    > > > roars at him all the time. Hair stands up and
                    > > > everything... This behavior was like that since
                    > day
                    > > > 1
                    > > > and seems to be getting worse. This is the
                    > first
                    > > > time
                    > > > the tiger has EVER done this. (male, 4 years
                    > old)
                    > > > The
                    > > > other animal is our White Handed Gibbon. (41
                    > years
                    > > > old, male) He dislikes men in general and is
                    > giving
                    > > > the keeper the same hard time he gives all men.
                    > It
                    > > > has come to my attention that the keeper in
                    > anger
                    > > > towards these animals is yelling and cursing at
                    > > > them.
                    > > > Here's an example... He bent down and tried to
                    > > > "talk
                    > > > sweet" to the tiger and the tiger jumped up and
                    > > > roared
                    > > > at him. He stood up yelled, F**K you then!
                    > another
                    > > > example.... He offered the gibbon a canister of
                    > > > raisins outside the fence so he could get his
                    > own
                    > > > treat and the gibbon went after his hand instead
                    > and
                    > > > he shouted the same thing and removed the treats
                    > and
                    > > > now refuses to offer him any treats at all. He
                    > > > often
                    > > > says that certain animals are "cool" with him
                    > and
                    > > > others that are not are mean and nasty. I have
                    > > > tried
                    > > > to explain to the keeper that these animals have
                    > to
                    > > > get used to him on their terms not his. Pushing
                    > > > yourself on them will not work. He doesn't seem
                    > to
                    > > > get it. Now, please understand that I am not
                    > > > "little
                    > > > miss sweet thing" that never utters a foul word.
                    > I
                    > > > cuss on a daily basis. There has been occasions
                    > > > where
                    > > > I have gotten frustrated with animals that won't
                    > > > cooperate like.... our llama that likes to
                    > stand
                    > > > where you need to rake, will eat my hair, and
                    > burp
                    > > > in
                    > > > your face. Normally this results in me saying
                    > > > something like... "Will you please leave me the
                    > > > hell
                    > > > alone!" in a tone similar to begging. Sometimes
                    > I
                    > > > even
                    > > > jump up and down like a kid not getting anything
                    > in
                    > > > a
                    > > > candy store until I take hold of my senses and
                    > think
                    > > > of another approach to try. All this though is
                    > more
                    > > > out of frustration never anger. I have a hard
                    > time
                    > > > ever being angry at my animals. His reaction to
                    > the
                    > > > animals really bothers me and I'm trying to
                    > decide
                    > > > the
                    > > > proper action to take. Anyway.... this is my
                    > > > problem
                    > > > and I would LOVE some opinions!
                    > > >
                    > > > Thanks so much, Jenn
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > __________________________________________________
                    > > > Do You Yahoo!?
                    > > > Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
                    > > > http://greetings.yahoo.com
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > __________________________________________________
                    > > Do You Yahoo!?
                    > > Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
                    > > http://greetings.yahoo.com
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    __________________________________________________
                    Do You Yahoo!?
                    Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
                    http://greetings.yahoo.com



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                  • Claire Waite
                    Jennifer, I echo the sentiments of most of the other members of this group. This is EXACTLY the forum for looking for advice whether it be with a keeper
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jan 3, 2002
                      Jennifer,
                      I echo the sentiments of most of the other members of
                      this group. This is EXACTLY the forum for looking for
                      advice whether it be with a keeper problem or animal
                      concerns. Don't worry about the negative comments.

                      Claire
                      Heritage Park Zoo
                      Prescott, AZ

                      --- Jennifer Burgess <ranspenny@...> wrote:
                      > To everyone,
                      >
                      > I can't begin to express how embarrassed and hurt I
                      > feel. It was never my intentions to lower the
                      > standards of this forum. I am extremely sorry to
                      > all
                      > of you that I have offended especially to you that
                      > felt compelled to leave the group. I posted that
                      > message with the hopes of getting objective
                      > solutions
                      > to a sensitive subject from other keepers who had
                      > experienced something similar. I obviously let my
                      > personal frustrations cloud my judgment. In the
                      > future I will only use this forum for truly
                      > professional inquiries. Again, you have my
                      > sincerest
                      > apologies.
                      >
                      > Jenn
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- carnivoreau <twosharp@...> wrote:
                      > > A group of zookeepers liasing internationally can
                      > be
                      > > such a useful
                      > > tool when used appropriately. However, when this
                      > > forum is used in a
                      > > manner that is reminiscent of lunchroom gossiping
                      > it
                      > > becomes quite
                      > > pathetic. I believe the subject below falls under
                      > > the latter
                      > > category.
                      > >
                      > > The comments are entirely unprofessional both for
                      > > yourself and the
                      > > institution for which you are employed. And while
                      > I
                      > > won't offer any
                      > > comments on the behaviour of the "new keeper" I
                      > > certainly hope that
                      > > he does not view your e-mails. There are laws in
                      > > place to protect
                      > > peoples rights in employment situations and by
                      > > airing your dirty
                      > > laundry publicly, you have broken several of them
                      > > (on second
                      > > thoughts, perhaps it would be better if he did see
                      > > them).
                      > >
                      > > This letter has prompted me to cancel my
                      > > subscription to this group
                      > > as I have no time for such childishness.
                      > >
                      > > To the professional keepers out there, keep making
                      > a
                      > > difference and I
                      > > sincerely apologise that I will no longer
                      > > participate in discussions
                      > > under this group.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > David Schaap
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In zookeeper@y..., Jennifer Burgess
                      > > <ranspenny@y...> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > --- Jennifer Burgess <ranspenny@y...> wrote:
                      > > > > Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 15:33:42 -0800 (PST)
                      > > > > From: Jennifer Burgess <ranspenny@y...>
                      > > > > Subject: I need opinions
                      > > > > To: zookeeeper@y...
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Hi everyone.... I have an issue I would like
                      > > some
                      > > > > feedback on. We have a new keeper at our zoo.
                      >
                      > > He
                      > > > > has
                      > > > > no experience in the zoo field and only a
                      > little
                      > > > > with
                      > > > > animals mostly reptiles. (we're hard up for
                      > > help)
                      > > > > anyway... the particular area of the zoo he's
                      > > > > working
                      > > > > on includes animals like.... White Handed
                      > > Gibbons,
                      > > > > Ring- Tailed Lemurs, Turkey Vulture, New
                      > Guinea
                      > > > > Singing Dog, Cockatoos, and White Tigers. Out
                      > > of
                      > > > > these animals there are 2 that he is having a
                      > > really
                      > > > > hard time with. One of our White Tigers jumps
                      > > and
                      > > > > roars at him all the time. Hair stands up and
                      > > > > everything... This behavior was like that
                      > since
                      > > day
                      > > > > 1
                      > > > > and seems to be getting worse. This is the
                      > > first
                      > > > > time
                      > > > > the tiger has EVER done this. (male, 4 years
                      > > old)
                      > > > > The
                      > > > > other animal is our White Handed Gibbon. (41
                      > > years
                      > > > > old, male) He dislikes men in general and is
                      > > giving
                      > > > > the keeper the same hard time he gives all
                      > men.
                      > > It
                      > > > > has come to my attention that the keeper in
                      > > anger
                      > > > > towards these animals is yelling and cursing
                      > at
                      > > > > them.
                      > > > > Here's an example... He bent down and tried
                      > to
                      > > > > "talk
                      > > > > sweet" to the tiger and the tiger jumped up
                      > and
                      > > > > roared
                      > > > > at him. He stood up yelled, F**K you then!
                      > > another
                      > > > > example.... He offered the gibbon a canister
                      > of
                      > > > > raisins outside the fence so he could get his
                      > > own
                      > > > > treat and the gibbon went after his hand
                      > instead
                      > > and
                      > > > > he shouted the same thing and removed the
                      > treats
                      > > and
                      > > > > now refuses to offer him any treats at all.
                      > He
                      > > > > often
                      > > > > says that certain animals are "cool" with him
                      > > and
                      > > > > others that are not are mean and nasty. I
                      > have
                      > > > > tried
                      > > > > to explain to the keeper that these animals
                      > have
                      > > to
                      > > > > get used to him on their terms not his.
                      > Pushing
                      > > > > yourself on them will not work. He doesn't
                      > seem
                      > > to
                      > > > > get it. Now, please understand that I am not
                      > > > > "little
                      > > > > miss sweet thing" that never utters a foul
                      > word.
                      > > I
                      > > > > cuss on a daily basis. There has been
                      > occasions
                      > > > > where
                      > > > > I have gotten frustrated with animals that
                      > won't
                      > > > > cooperate like.... our llama that likes to
                      > > stand
                      > > > > where you need to rake, will eat my hair, and
                      > > burp
                      > > > > in
                      > > > > your face. Normally this results in me saying
                      > > > > something like... "Will you please leave me
                      > the
                      > > > > hell
                      > > > > alone!" in a tone similar to begging.
                      > Sometimes
                      > > I
                      > > > > even
                      > > > > jump up and down like a kid not getting
                      > anything
                      > > in
                      > > > > a
                      > > > > candy store until I take hold of my senses and
                      > > think
                      > > > > of another approach to try. All this though
                      > is
                      > > more
                      > > > > out of frustration never anger. I have a hard
                      > > time
                      > > > > ever being angry at my animals. His reaction
                      > to
                      > > the
                      > > > > animals really bothers me and I'm trying to
                      > > decide
                      > > > > the
                      > > > > proper action to take. Anyway.... this is my
                      > > > > problem
                      > > > > and I would LOVE some opinions!
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Thanks so much, Jenn
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > __________________________________________________
                      > > > > Do You Yahoo!?
                      > > > > Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
                      > > > > http://greetings.yahoo.com
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > __________________________________________________
                      > > > Do You Yahoo!?
                      > > > Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
                      > > > http://greetings.yahoo.com
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > __________________________________________________
                      > Do You Yahoo!?
                      > Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
                      > http://greetings.yahoo.com
                      >
                      >


                      __________________________________________________
                      Do You Yahoo!?
                      Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
                      http://greetings.yahoo.com
                    • Alison L Shaub
                      Ok, here s how it is. I work at the same zoo as Jenn. We are a staff of 5 (well, 4 now). The staff consists of a curator and 3 keepers. Jenn is our senior
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jan 3, 2002
                        Ok, here's how it is. I work at the same zoo as Jenn.
                        We are a staff of 5 (well, 4 now). The staff
                        consists of a curator and 3 keepers. Jenn is our
                        senior keeper. She was asked, by our boss, to train
                        this ill-tempered keeper. To me, that conveys a sense
                        of trust and confidence in Jenn's skills. She is not
                        a childish person. Zoo keeping is her life, as it is
                        for many of us. She presented her problems with the
                        trainee to the forum for peer feedback. She wanted to
                        use your reactions to the problem to kind of
                        "calibrate" her own reactions to this person. He
                        initiated a heated discussion with her after her
                        attempts to reason, rationalize, explain, train, etc
                        the proper care of the exotics. He seemed to think
                        that his age (42, I believe) and his gender deemed him
                        wiser than Jenn (she's 26) although he has had 2
                        months of experience with animals and she has worked
                        with animals since she was a teenager. Jenn was a lot
                        more reasonable, relaxed, and diplomatic than I ever
                        could have been (I'm a bit of a hothead) and I admire
                        her for that. This trainee was asked several times by
                        Jenn to try different ways of interacting with the
                        animals to get better results. Not only did he refuse
                        outright, he even went so far as to blame the
                        incumbent keepers for the animals reactions to him.
                        Every animal in the zoo tolerates Jenn beautifully and
                        she can work with them no matter what the
                        circumstances. That is because of her experience and
                        knowledge and nobody should begrudge her that. It is
                        disheartening to me that one member's misconstruance
                        has shaken Jenn's confidence in herself. She has no
                        reason to be embarrassed. She should be proud that
                        she acted in the manner of a seasoned professional
                        when faced with the typical schoolyard bully. As
                        always, thank you for putting up with my
                        stream-of-consciousness posts.

                        Alison

                        __________________________________________________
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                        Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
                        http://greetings.yahoo.com
                      • Jennifer Burgess
                        Al, I don t even have to tell you but, I will.... Your the best! Thanks, Jenn ... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jan 4, 2002
                          Al, I don't even have to tell you but, I will....
                          Your the best!
                          Thanks, Jenn

                          --- Alison L Shaub <kevinsgirl214@...> wrote:
                          > Ok, here's how it is. I work at the same zoo as
                          > Jenn.
                          > We are a staff of 5 (well, 4 now). The staff
                          > consists of a curator and 3 keepers. Jenn is our
                          > senior keeper. She was asked, by our boss, to train
                          > this ill-tempered keeper. To me, that conveys a
                          > sense
                          > of trust and confidence in Jenn's skills. She is
                          > not
                          > a childish person. Zoo keeping is her life, as it
                          > is
                          > for many of us. She presented her problems with the
                          > trainee to the forum for peer feedback. She wanted
                          > to
                          > use your reactions to the problem to kind of
                          > "calibrate" her own reactions to this person. He
                          > initiated a heated discussion with her after her
                          > attempts to reason, rationalize, explain, train, etc
                          > the proper care of the exotics. He seemed to think
                          > that his age (42, I believe) and his gender deemed
                          > him
                          > wiser than Jenn (she's 26) although he has had 2
                          > months of experience with animals and she has worked
                          > with animals since she was a teenager. Jenn was a
                          > lot
                          > more reasonable, relaxed, and diplomatic than I ever
                          > could have been (I'm a bit of a hothead) and I
                          > admire
                          > her for that. This trainee was asked several times
                          > by
                          > Jenn to try different ways of interacting with the
                          > animals to get better results. Not only did he
                          > refuse
                          > outright, he even went so far as to blame the
                          > incumbent keepers for the animals reactions to him.
                          > Every animal in the zoo tolerates Jenn beautifully
                          > and
                          > she can work with them no matter what the
                          > circumstances. That is because of her experience
                          > and
                          > knowledge and nobody should begrudge her that. It
                          > is
                          > disheartening to me that one member's misconstruance
                          > has shaken Jenn's confidence in herself. She has no
                          > reason to be embarrassed. She should be proud that
                          > she acted in the manner of a seasoned professional
                          > when faced with the typical schoolyard bully. As
                          > always, thank you for putting up with my
                          > stream-of-consciousness posts.
                          >
                          > Alison
                          >
                          > __________________________________________________
                          > Do You Yahoo!?
                          > Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
                          > http://greetings.yahoo.com
                          >
                          >


                          __________________________________________________
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