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Misconcept of Buddhism as Superstitious

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  • [PKS Web] shian
    THE POST- 65ERS Religious tensions within home By Li Xueying
    Message 1 of 3 , Mar 13 9:45 PM
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      THE POST-'65ERS
      Religious tensions within home
      By Li Xueying  (The Straits Times, Singapore 11 Mar 2005) 

      WHAT'S in a bag of joss sticks? 

      Too much, it seems. While shopping for Chinese New Year groceries this year, my mother bought some incense. It's customary, she said, to burn offerings to protect the family in the coming year. The bag was passed to my younger brother. He refused to touch it. He had, you see, converted to Christianity two years ago, and is now an active member in a charismatic church. He believes joss sticks and paper money are pagan. Carrying the bag would be wrong.

      My family is agnostic. Burning incense is reserved for Chinese New Year, Qing Ming Festival and our grandparents' death anniversaries. To us, it is not so much a religious ritual as it is a cultural custom. 

      But already there is some uneasiness within my family. What more for families who are Buddhist or Taoist - the faiths of a majority of pre-'65 Singaporeans? This is an inter-generational tableau playing out in many families.

      As church leaders tell me, tensions do arise when they win over young converts. Strain often arises in a family when a member converts to another religion, no matter which. 

      But because Christianity is fast gaining popularity among the post-'65 Chinese, it has become the religion that often comes up against the traditional faiths of their parents.The proportion of Christians among the Chinese increased from 2.4 per cent in 1921 to 10.6 per cent in 1980. By 2000, 17 per cent were Christians, overtaking Taoists as the second largest group after the Buddhists. In contrast, Malays and Indians have largely stayed with their traditional faiths. It is also rarer that a Chinese converts to Islam or Hinduism.

      So what accounts for the growing affinity for Christianity among younger Chinese?

      First, the post-'65ers are, by and large, a better-educated generation than their parents. Socialised into an English-stream system, they tend to be attracted to Christianity, perceived as a modern religion. They view their parents' faiths as superstitious and illogical, as sociologists Eddie Kuo and Tong Chee Kiong noted in a 1990 Census monograph. Second, as the monograph notes, the evangelical Christian movement has been 'particularly active since the early 1980s'. Today, half of the Christians are converts, compared to the 90 per cent of Buddhists, Muslims and others born into their respective faiths.

      This has led to what Prof Kuo calls 'an inherent tension' in families. He told me in an interview: 'In Singapore, things change so fast there is no time to adjust. In other countries, a change in religion may take place over a few generations so there is a buffer zone. Families here are forced to confront the change overnight.' 

      And so, difficulties arise. For instance, Taoist parents may unthinkingly light joss sticks, whose incense wafts into their children's room.

      I know of an eldest son who refused to hold the joss sticks at his Buddhist father's funeral. His family is not speaking to him. 

      Parents are hurt when children believe that they - non-Christian believers - are destined for hell. It doesn't help when some parents take the hardline route, and ban their children from church. One man, now a pastor, was thrown out of his home.

      As a society, Singapore has done a wonderful job in maintaining harmony among the diverse religions.

      The Government is insistent on the cultivation of a common space, while the religious groups themselves are assiduous in avoiding stepping on one another's toes.

      But it's different at home, behind closed doors. The emotional bonds between loved ones tear down the walls of politically correct niceties. Harsh words are said, camps are drawn. 

      Some churches recognise this potential conflict zone. So City Harvest Church, for example, makes its members who are aged below 21 get a parental consent form signed before they can attend church.

      But what happens if religion itself is the source of disharmony between family members?

      There is no easy answer, and it probably can never be resolved. The family has to work out some mechanism to cope with the differences so they will never be brought to boiling point. Pastor Lawrence Lim of New Creation Church said: 'We counsel the kids to be gracious, educate their parents so they understand Christianity. Then, the misunderstanding will be lessened.'

      Communication - and respect - has to go both ways. As a friend, whose mother is a Buddhist, said: 'I have heart-to-heart talks with my mum about our religions.' 

      And compromise. Be open. A Catholic friend has no qualms holding joss sticks at funerals. 'It's a sign of respect for them. God understands.' Indeed. For what is a bag of joss sticks, except for the meaning that you invest in it?

      E-mail: xueying@...


       
      A Reply (Publication Pending) 

      Dear Ms Li Xue Ying,

      I refer to your article, "What's in a bag of joss sticks", published on 11 March 2005. I would like to share with you my personal experience and perspective.

      I have been a Buddhist now, for over 12 years. The term we use to describe ourselves is "Zheng Xin Fou Jiao Tu", or "Buddhists who have proper understanding of the Buddha's teachings". What led me to this path, you see, has quite a bit of an irony.

      I was about 9 years old when my Catholic tuition teacher, on top of our usual lessons on math, science and english, would teach us Christian lessons, telling us reasons why her faith is superior to Buddhism. Being young, I respectfully listened to what she has to say., though I did not know any better. What she did not know was that she aroused my curiosity to discover for myself if what she said was true.

      I finally got the chance to do so in my teens, spending time reading up on Buddhism, discussing it with other Buddhists. Only then did I realise that what my tuition teacher and other evangelistical Christians told me about Buddhism was false. Buddhism is not the backward superstitious religion they have tried to portray it to be. Buddhism is, instead, a very profound and wonderful religion. I do not blame them because they, like me as a child, did not know any better about what Buddhism is. They were not even able to differentiate Buddhist beliefs from traditional Chinese folk beliefs.

      Many of the pre-65s' Chinese, like my parents, are simple folks who worked hard to raise their children. They had little education and even less time for deeper religious thoughts. What they carried over for their children were rituals and practices that helped them to connect to the their ancestry and what they sincerely believed to be the divine. Although I now know many of these practices are not Buddhist, I have no issue following them through, if only to make my parents happy, especially knowing how upset they would be if I were to do otherwise.

      On a personal note, I find the Buddha's teachings to be very relevant to our modern world. The Buddha taught that the cause of our problems of warfare, corruption, environmental inbalance, murder, adultery, family violence, compulsive gambling etc, are caused by our craving, hatred and delusion. Thus, the whole of the Buddha's teachings is a system geared towards helping us let go of these three "poisons", and to cultivate universal compassion and wisdom. It is worth noting that there has been no major war fought in the name of Buddhism, and that it is currently the fastest growing religion in US, UK, Australia and the West in general. This growth is a result of the West's discovery of the Buddha's timeless wisdom, of His recipe for a truly happy and meaningful life.

      The Buddha also taught us that we should not believe in any teachings just because it has been passed down as a tradition, or simply because it is written in any holy scriptures. We are urged to take up a belief only after careful investigation, when you know that it will benefit oneself and others. So I would encourage everyone not to blindly believe what anyone, including me, has told you. Keep an open mind and open heart, go and investigate each religion with all the facts at hand.

      I have found the religion that resonates in my heart. I hope all readers find yours too.

      Regards
      Tok MengHaw

    • Toh Jean
      I remember several years ago when my sister began attending sunday churches services and started to hang out frequently with Christian friends. That was after
      Message 2 of 3 , Mar 15 10:02 AM
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        I remember several years ago when my sister began attending sunday churches services and started to hang out frequently with Christian friends. That was after she had ended a seven year relationship and had found friendships and support from a group of her Christian friends. My parents were really worried. They become paranoid, on the possibility of her converting to Christianity especially after spotting a Bible in her room. But no one really stopped her. For she was really happier.
         
        After a while, we observed that my sister had stopped going to church. I asked her about it one day and she told me that she can't bear to donate 10% of her pay each month to the church. But it had been a good experience.
         
        I grew up in a Taoist family. Paying respect with joss sticks to my ancestors and deities or burning paper money during Chinese New Year, Ching Ming festival, Zhong Yuan jie etc etc are parts and parcel of my life while growing up. But Taoist is more than that, and I have fond memories of my childhood with Taoist rituals as part of my way of life then. Hence, even though i become a Buddhist when i was thirteen, i have never feel the need to deliberately dissociate or distinguish myself from this religion. When you understand the reason why certain practices are being carried out, even if it is not your belief, you learn to accept it as it is.
         
        Interestingly, i was chatting with a French customer last Sunday. He remarked that he was born a Christian although it's not his personal belief. On the other hand, he rather admire Buddhism and its philosophy and found it a most "modern, peaceful and scientific" religion and perhaps that's why it is "fastest growing religion in Europe".
         
        Finally, i am not sure that we are really losing more Buddhist followers. I am referring to true Buddhist who believes in the Dharma and not Buddhist by birth. (Incidentally, i grew up in a Taoist family but my birthcert stated my religion as Buddhism). I sure do know many young Buddhists are attending dharma schools across the island and i personally know many Buddhist by choice from my uni.
         
        JT
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 1:45 PM
        Subject: [zeph] Misconcept of Buddhism as Superstitious


        THE POST-'65ERS
        Religious tensions within home
        By Li Xueying  (The Straits Times, Singapore 11 Mar 2005) 

        WHAT'S in a bag of joss sticks? 

        Too much, it seems. While shopping for Chinese New Year groceries this year, my mother bought some incense. It's customary, she said, to burn offerings to protect the family in the coming year. The bag was passed to my younger brother. He refused to touch it. He had, you see, converted to Christianity two years ago, and is now an active member in a charismatic church. He believes joss sticks and paper money are pagan. Carrying the bag would be wrong.

        My family is agnostic. Burning incense is reserved for Chinese New Year, Qing Ming Festival and our grandparents' death anniversaries. To us, it is not so much a religious ritual as it is a cultural custom. 

        But already there is some uneasiness within my family. What more for families who are Buddhist or Taoist - the faiths of a majority of pre-'65 Singaporeans? This is an inter-generational tableau playing out in many families.

        As church leaders tell me, tensions do arise when they win over young converts. Strain often arises in a family when a member converts to another religion, no matter which. 

        But because Christianity is fast gaining popularity among the post-'65 Chinese, it has become the religion that often comes up against the traditional faiths of their parents.The proportion of Christians among the Chinese increased from 2.4 per cent in 1921 to 10.6 per cent in 1980. By 2000, 17 per cent were Christians, overtaking Taoists as the second largest group after the Buddhists. In contrast, Malays and Indians have largely stayed with their traditional faiths. It is also rarer that a Chinese converts to Islam or Hinduism.

        So what accounts for the growing affinity for Christianity among younger Chinese?

        First, the post-'65ers are, by and large, a better-educated generation than their parents. Socialised into an English-stream system, they tend to be attracted to Christianity, perceived as a modern religion. They view their parents' faiths as superstitious and illogical, as sociologists Eddie Kuo and Tong Chee Kiong noted in a 1990 Census monograph. Second, as the monograph notes, the evangelical Christian movement has been 'particularly active since the early 1980s'. Today, half of the Christians are converts, compared to the 90 per cent of Buddhists, Muslims and others born into their respective faiths.

        This has led to what Prof Kuo calls 'an inherent tension' in families. He told me in an interview: 'In Singapore, things change so fast there is no time to adjust. In other countries, a change in religion may take place over a few generations so there is a buffer zone. Families here are forced to confront the change overnight.' 

        And so, difficulties arise. For instance, Taoist parents may unthinkingly light joss sticks, whose incense wafts into their children's room.

        I know of an eldest son who refused to hold the joss sticks at his Buddhist father's funeral. His family is not speaking to him. 

        Parents are hurt when children believe that they - non-Christian believers - are destined for hell. It doesn't help when some parents take the hardline route, and ban their children from church. One man, now a pastor, was thrown out of his home.

        As a society, Singapore has done a wonderful job in maintaining harmony among the diverse religions.

        The Government is insistent on the cultivation of a common space, while the religious groups themselves are assiduous in avoiding stepping on one another's toes.

        But it's different at home, behind closed doors. The emotional bonds between loved ones tear down the walls of politically correct niceties. Harsh words are said, camps are drawn. 

        Some churches recognise this potential conflict zone. So City Harvest Church, for example, makes its members who are aged below 21 get a parental consent form signed before they can attend church.

        But what happens if religion itself is the source of disharmony between family members?

        There is no easy answer, and it probably can never be resolved. The family has to work out some mechanism to cope with the differences so they will never be brought to boiling point. Pastor Lawrence Lim of New Creation Church said: 'We counsel the kids to be gracious, educate their parents so they understand Christianity. Then, the misunderstanding will be lessened.'

        Communication - and respect - has to go both ways. As a friend, whose mother is a Buddhist, said: 'I have heart-to-heart talks with my mum about our religions.' 

        And compromise. Be open. A Catholic friend has no qualms holding joss sticks at funerals. 'It's a sign of respect for them. God understands.' Indeed. For what is a bag of joss sticks, except for the meaning that you invest in it?

        E-mail: xueying@...


         
        A Reply (Publication Pending) 

        Dear Ms Li Xue Ying,

        I refer to your article, "What's in a bag of joss sticks", published on 11 March 2005. I would like to share with you my personal experience and perspective.

        I have been a Buddhist now, for over 12 years. The term we use to describe ourselves is "Zheng Xin Fou Jiao Tu", or "Buddhists who have proper understanding of the Buddha's teachings". What led me to this path, you see, has quite a bit of an irony.

        I was about 9 years old when my Catholic tuition teacher, on top of our usual lessons on math, science and english, would teach us Christian lessons, telling us reasons why her faith is superior to Buddhism. Being young, I respectfully listened to what she has to say., though I did not know any better. What she did not know was that she aroused my curiosity to discover for myself if what she said was true.

        I finally got the chance to do so in my teens, spending time reading up on Buddhism, discussing it with other Buddhists. Only then did I realise that what my tuition teacher and other evangelistical Christians told me about Buddhism was false. Buddhism is not the backward superstitious religion they have tried to portray it to be. Buddhism is, instead, a very profound and wonderful religion. I do not blame them because they, like me as a child, did not know any better about what Buddhism is. They were not even able to differentiate Buddhist beliefs from traditional Chinese folk beliefs.

        Many of the pre-65s' Chinese, like my parents, are simple folks who worked hard to raise their children. They had little education and even less time for deeper religious thoughts. What they carried over for their children were rituals and practices that helped them to connect to the their ancestry and what they sincerely believed to be the divine. Although I now know many of these practices are not Buddhist, I have no issue following them through, if only to make my parents happy, especially knowing how upset they would be if I were to do otherwise.

        On a personal note, I find the Buddha's teachings to be very relevant to our modern world. The Buddha taught that the cause of our problems of warfare, corruption, environmental inbalance, murder, adultery, family violence, compulsive gambling etc, are caused by our craving, hatred and delusion. Thus, the whole of the Buddha's teachings is a system geared towards helping us let go of these three "poisons", and to cultivate universal compassion and wisdom. It is worth noting that there has been no major war fought in the name of Buddhism, and that it is currently the fastest growing religion in US, UK, Australia and the West in general. This growth is a result of the West's discovery of the Buddha's timeless wisdom, of His recipe for a truly happy and meaningful life.

        The Buddha also taught us that we should not believe in any teachings just because it has been passed down as a tradition, or simply because it is written in any holy scriptures. We are urged to take up a belief only after careful investigation, when you know that it will benefit oneself and others. So I would encourage everyone not to blindly believe what anyone, including me, has told you. Keep an open mind and open heart, go and investigate each religion with all the facts at hand.

        I have found the religion that resonates in my heart. I hope all readers find yours too.

        Regards
        Tok MengHaw



        TDE-Weekly ~ http://TheDailyEnlightenment.com
        ZephList ~ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/zeph
        Blog Community ~ http://moonpointer.com






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      • Art Hansen
        I agree with the French customer. I find CG Jung borrows heavily from Buddhism and Taoism in his behavioral psychology. Also when I was in treatment for
        Message 3 of 3 , Mar 19 2:40 PM
        • 0 Attachment
          I agree with the French customer. I find CG Jung borrows heavily from Buddhism and Taoism in his behavioral psychology. Also when I was in treatment for depression, the Cognitive Behavior Therapy echoed Buddhism as well.
           
          I was born Christian. I do not disown Christianity, but Buddhism is closer to my heart and my soul.
           
          The Christian faiths in USA also worry about declining memberships. Maybe this is a phenomenon occurring in all organized religions.
           
           
          Art Hansen
          Lutheran Buddhist
          -----Original Message-----
          From: Toh Jean [mailto:kjiom2003@...]
          Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 10:03 AM
          To: zeph@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [zeph] Misconcept of Buddhism as Superstitious

          I remember several years ago when my sister began attending sunday churches services and started to hang out frequently with Christian friends. That was after she had ended a seven year relationship and had found friendships and support from a group of her Christian friends. My parents were really worried. They become paranoid, on the possibility of her converting to Christianity especially after spotting a Bible in her room. But no one really stopped her. For she was really happier.
           
          After a while, we observed that my sister had stopped going to church. I asked her about it one day and she told me that she can't bear to donate 10% of her pay each month to the church. But it had been a good experience.
           
          I grew up in a Taoist family. Paying respect with joss sticks to my ancestors and deities or burning paper money during Chinese New Year, Ching Ming festival, Zhong Yuan jie etc etc are parts and parcel of my life while growing up. But Taoist is more than that, and I have fond memories of my childhood with Taoist rituals as part of my way of life then. Hence, even though i become a Buddhist when i was thirteen, i have never feel the need to deliberately dissociate or distinguish myself from this religion. When you understand the reason why certain practices are being carried out, even if it is not your belief, you learn to accept it as it is.
           
          Interestingly, i was chatting with a French customer last Sunday. He remarked that he was born a Christian although it's not his personal belief. On the other hand, he rather admire Buddhism and its philosophy and found it a most "modern, peaceful and scientific" religion and perhaps that's why it is "fastest growing religion in Europe".
           
          Finally, i am not sure that we are really losing more Buddhist followers. I am referring to true Buddhist who believes in the Dharma and not Buddhist by birth. (Incidentally, i grew up in a Taoist family but my birthcert stated my religion as Buddhism). I sure do know many young Buddhists are attending dharma schools across the island and i personally know many Buddhist by choice from my uni.
           
          JT
           
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 1:45 PM
          Subject: [zeph] Misconcept of Buddhism as Superstitious


          THE POST-'65ERS
          Religious tensions within home
          By Li Xueying  (The Straits Times, Singapore 11 Mar 2005) 

          WHAT'S in a bag of joss sticks? 

          Too much, it seems. While shopping for Chinese New Year groceries this year, my mother bought some incense. It's customary, she said, to burn offerings to protect the family in the coming year. The bag was passed to my younger brother. He refused to touch it. He had, you see, converted to Christianity two years ago, and is now an active member in a charismatic church. He believes joss sticks and paper money are pagan. Carrying the bag would be wrong.

          My family is agnostic. Burning incense is reserved for Chinese New Year, Qing Ming Festival and our grandparents' death anniversaries. To us, it is not so much a religious ritual as it is a cultural custom. 

          But already there is some uneasiness within my family. What more for families who are Buddhist or Taoist - the faiths of a majority of pre-'65 Singaporeans? This is an inter-generational tableau playing out in many families.

          As church leaders tell me, tensions do arise when they win over young converts. Strain often arises in a family when a member converts to another religion, no matter which. 

          But because Christianity is fast gaining popularity among the post-'65 Chinese, it has become the religion that often comes up against the traditional faiths of their parents.The proportion of Christians among the Chinese increased from 2.4 per cent in 1921 to 10.6 per cent in 1980. By 2000, 17 per cent were Christians, overtaking Taoists as the second largest group after the Buddhists. In contrast, Malays and Indians have largely stayed with their traditional faiths. It is also rarer that a Chinese converts to Islam or Hinduism.

          So what accounts for the growing affinity for Christianity among younger Chinese?

          First, the post-'65ers are, by and large, a better-educated generation than their parents. Socialised into an English-stream system, they tend to be attracted to Christianity, perceived as a modern religion. They view their parents' faiths as superstitious and illogical, as sociologists Eddie Kuo and Tong Chee Kiong noted in a 1990 Census monograph. Second, as the monograph notes, the evangelical Christian movement has been 'particularly active since the early 1980s'. Today, half of the Christians are converts, compared to the 90 per cent of Buddhists, Muslims and others born into their respective faiths.

          This has led to what Prof Kuo calls 'an inherent tension' in families. He told me in an interview: 'In Singapore, things change so fast there is no time to adjust. In other countries, a change in religion may take place over a few generations so there is a buffer zone. Families here are forced to confront the change overnight.' 

          And so, difficulties arise. For instance, Taoist parents may unthinkingly light joss sticks, whose incense wafts into their children's room.

          I know of an eldest son who refused to hold the joss sticks at his Buddhist father's funeral. His family is not speaking to him. 

          Parents are hurt when children believe that they - non-Christian believers - are destined for hell. It doesn't help when some parents take the hardline route, and ban their children from church. One man, now a pastor, was thrown out of his home.

          As a society, Singapore has done a wonderful job in maintaining harmony among the diverse religions.

          The Government is insistent on the cultivation of a common space, while the religious groups themselves are assiduous in avoiding stepping on one another's toes.

          But it's different at home, behind closed doors. The emotional bonds between loved ones tear down the walls of politically correct niceties. Harsh words are said, camps are drawn. 

          Some churches recognise this potential conflict zone. So City Harvest Church, for example, makes its members who are aged below 21 get a parental consent form signed before they can attend church.

          But what happens if religion itself is the source of disharmony between family members?

          There is no easy answer, and it probably can never be resolved. The family has to work out some mechanism to cope with the differences so they will never be brought to boiling point. Pastor Lawrence Lim of New Creation Church said: 'We counsel the kids to be gracious, educate their parents so they understand Christianity. Then, the misunderstanding will be lessened.'

          Communication - and respect - has to go both ways. As a friend, whose mother is a Buddhist, said: 'I have heart-to-heart talks with my mum about our religions.' 

          And compromise. Be open. A Catholic friend has no qualms holding joss sticks at funerals. 'It's a sign of respect for them. God understands.' Indeed. For what is a bag of joss sticks, except for the meaning that you invest in it?

          E-mail: xueying@...


           
          A Reply (Publication Pending) 

          Dear Ms Li Xue Ying,

          I refer to your article, "What's in a bag of joss sticks", published on 11 March 2005. I would like to share with you my personal experience and perspective.

          I have been a Buddhist now, for over 12 years. The term we use to describe ourselves is "Zheng Xin Fou Jiao Tu", or "Buddhists who have proper understanding of the Buddha's teachings". What led me to this path, you see, has quite a bit of an irony.

          I was about 9 years old when my Catholic tuition teacher, on top of our usual lessons on math, science and english, would teach us Christian lessons, telling us reasons why her faith is superior to Buddhism. Being young, I respectfully listened to what she has to say., though I did not know any better. What she did not know was that she aroused my curiosity to discover for myself if what she said was true.

          I finally got the chance to do so in my teens, spending time reading up on Buddhism, discussing it with other Buddhists. Only then did I realise that what my tuition teacher and other evangelistical Christians told me about Buddhism was false. Buddhism is not the backward superstitious religion they have tried to portray it to be. Buddhism is, instead, a very profound and wonderful religion. I do not blame them because they, like me as a child, did not know any better about what Buddhism is. They were not even able to differentiate Buddhist beliefs from traditional Chinese folk beliefs.

          Many of the pre-65s' Chinese, like my parents, are simple folks who worked hard to raise their children. They had little education and even less time for deeper religious thoughts. What they carried over for their children were rituals and practices that helped them to connect to the their ancestry and what they sincerely believed to be the divine. Although I now know many of these practices are not Buddhist, I have no issue following them through, if only to make my parents happy, especially knowing how upset they would be if I were to do otherwise.

          On a personal note, I find the Buddha's teachings to be very relevant to our modern world. The Buddha taught that the cause of our problems of warfare, corruption, environmental inbalance, murder, adultery, family violence, compulsive gambling etc, are caused by our craving, hatred and delusion. Thus, the whole of the Buddha's teachings is a system geared towards helping us let go of these three "poisons", and to cultivate universal compassion and wisdom. It is worth noting that there has been no major war fought in the name of Buddhism, and that it is currently the fastest growing religion in US, UK, Australia and the West in general. This growth is a result of the West's discovery of the Buddha's timeless wisdom, of His recipe for a truly happy and meaningful life.

          The Buddha also taught us that we should not believe in any teachings just because it has been passed down as a tradition, or simply because it is written in any holy scriptures. We are urged to take up a belief only after careful investigation, when you know that it will benefit oneself and others. So I would encourage everyone not to blindly believe what anyone, including me, has told you. Keep an open mind and open heart, go and investigate each religion with all the facts at hand.

          I have found the religion that resonates in my heart. I hope all readers find yours too.

          Regards
          Tok MengHaw



          TDE-Weekly ~ http://TheDailyEnlightenment.com
          ZephList ~ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/zeph
          Blog Community ~ http://moonpointer.com




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