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Help with setting up a turnout control panel

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  • jkpeter_629
    I m just starting a Z scale layout (my first real model layout) and I m using Rokuhan track. The turnouts are wired for their controller switches, but I d
    Message 1 of 17 , Jan 16, 2014
      I'm just starting a Z scale layout (my first real model layout) and I'm using Rokuhan track.  The turnouts are wired for their controller switches, but I'd like to setup my own.  Can I use some kind of switch (DPDT or ?) and wire up a low power supply to run them somehow?


      Thanks
      James
    • David Mummery
      I d recommend sticking with the Rok controllers, very solid and great stuff; just my 2¢. Dave Mummery http://tractionmadness.blogspot.com/ Sent from my
      Message 2 of 17 , Jan 16, 2014
        I'd recommend sticking with the Rok controllers, very solid and great stuff; just my 2¢.

        Dave Mummery


        Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


        jkpeter_629@... wrote:

         

        I'm just starting a Z scale layout (my first real model layout) and I'm using Rokuhan track.  The turnouts are wired for their controller switches, but I'd like to setup my own.  Can I use some kind of switch (DPDT or ?) and wire up a low power supply to run them somehow?


        Thanks
        James

      • Harbormaster
        This discussion is an opportunity to ask a question. If you use the ROKUHAN Y switch connectors can you cascade a series of switches (in say a switch yard)
        Message 3 of 17 , Jan 16, 2014
          This discussion is an opportunity to ask a question.

          If you use the ROKUHAN "Y" switch connectors can you "cascade" a series of switches (in say a switch yard) to set routes? And, would you need more than one controller?

          Jim Shiff
          -----Original Message-----
          From: David Mummery [mailto:d_mummery@...]
          Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2014 03:00 PM
          To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Help with setting up a turnout control panel

          I'd recommend sticking with the Rok controllers, very solid and great stuff; just my 2¢.

          Dave Mummery

          http://tractionmadness.blogspot.com/

          Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

          jkpeter_629@... wrote:

          I'm just starting a Z scale layout (my first real model layout) and I'm using Rokuhan track. The turnouts are wired for their controller switches, but I'd like to setup my own. Can I use some kind of switch (DPDT or ?) and wire up a low power supply to run them somehow?


          Thanks
          James
        • BAZ
          The turnouts function the same as the märklin and HO/Atlas: a *momentary* Pushbutton is needed. You can by DPDT momentary (center off). Jim, I suspect so but
          Message 4 of 17 , Jan 16, 2014
            The turnouts function the same as the märklin and HO/Atlas: a *momentary* Pushbutton is needed. You can by DPDT momentary (center off).

            Jim, I suspect so but it believe you would have to do it with Diode laddering.


            Jeff

            Sent 'from the road'

            On Jan 16, 2014, at 3:00 PM, David Mummery <d_mummery@...> wrote:

             

            I'd recommend sticking with the Rok controllers, very solid and great stuff; just my 2¢.

            Dave Mummery


            Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


            jkpeter_629@... wrote:

             

            I'm just starting a Z scale layout (my first real model layout) and I'm using Rokuhan track.  The turnouts are wired for their controller switches, but I'd like to setup my own.  Can I use some kind of switch (DPDT or ?) and wire up a low power supply to run them somehow?


            Thanks
            James

          • Harbormaster
            Thanks Jeff, for the 2015 NMRA/NTS in Portland we ll try to build a Portland Marine Terminal switching yard as a 90degree curved/corner (4x6) Zbend module to
            Message 5 of 17 , Jan 16, 2014
              Thanks Jeff, for the 2015 NMRA/NTS in Portland we'll try to build a Portland Marine Terminal switching yard as a 90degree curved/corner (4x6) Zbend module to display our locomotives, rolling stock and industrial models; Intermodal, Chemical, Petroleum, Ore, Smelting, etc. It will have a cascade of eight parallel tracks and four runarounds all within the twin main lines. Container Wharf, Ferry Terminal, Smelter and Refinery, Power Plant with Coal, Gas, and Petroleum storage. All the structures mentioned are finished and were demo'd in 2004 at the NMRA/NTS. A Diesel Service Facility with shops will be included. Our time problem is laying, proving, and dressing the trackwork and adjacent surfaces. Any suggestions would be helpful.
            • tchadnj
              I ve been looking at a DPDT momentary switches at Amazon for use with my Rokuhan switches. This may fit your needs if it is spring-loaded to return to center
              Message 6 of 17 , Jan 16, 2014
                I've been looking at a DPDT momentary switches at Amazon for use with my Rokuhan switches. This may fit your needs if it is spring-loaded to return to center off position. If any members have used this I'd appreciate your comments as to its suitability.
                 
                 
                Rick
                 
                In a message dated 1/16/2014 6:48:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, sjbazman49@... writes:
                 

                The turnouts function the same as the märklin and HO/Atlas: a *momentary* Pushbutton is needed. You can by DPDT momentary (center off).

                Jim, I suspect so but it believe you would have to do it with Diode laddering.


                Jeff

                Sent 'from the road'

                On Jan 16, 2014, at 3:00 PM, David Mummery <d_mummery@...> wrote:

                 

                I'd recommend sticking with the Rok controllers, very solid and great stuff; just my 2¢.

                Dave Mummery


                Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


                jkpeter_629@... wrote:

                 

                I'm just starting a Z scale layout (my first real model layout) and I'm using Rokuhan track.  The turnouts are wired for their controller switches, but I'd like to setup my own.  Can I use some kind of switch (DPDT or ?) and wire up a low power supply to run them somehow?


                Thanks
                James

              • garthah
                JIm the problem with diode matrix type control of routing switches is the current and voltage involved in most commercial systems far exceeds the rating of
                Message 7 of 17 , Jan 17, 2014

                  JIm  the problem with diode matrix type control of routing switches is the current and voltage involved in most commercial systems far exceeds the rating of the small coil in the Rokuhan turnouts. Using a Y connector you can reliably control 4 turnouts to one control lever more than that and you will get misfiring and this is if you use the turnouts control switches on the C001 and C003 train controllers or the stand allone turnout control lever with its own Rokuhan power supply which is the same unit used with the  Train controller. The Rokuhan controller is very versatile device as it can be used in various ways. I can be used as a stand alone device with it own power source or it can be cascaded or stacked on the side of any Rokuhan Controller.The power is micro amps at 6vdc .  For doing your own control panel David K Smith had a very good tutorial on wiring your own turnout controls.  . .The blog spot posting seems to have disappeared so not sure if anyone has a copy of that or not. basically he used a 6vdc wall transformer with .75 amps as the power source and a spring loaded center off momentary contact DTDP micro switch to control the turnout.  The switch is  wired to that in one position the the A and B wires are getting A+B- and in the other direction you are getting A-B+ so you see the turnout is controlled by reversing the polarity of the voltage being applied to the coil and that in turn determines whether the rare earth magnet inside the track base on the throw arm is attracted or repelled.from the coil.  The coil is very small in diameter and is built using very fine enameled wire so is very low current  coil rated in micro amps and can not sustain continued power or constant power, it needs just a momentary pulse of power to change the coil and move the magnet. 


                  best regards Garth. . 

                • trainssd
                  Garth, I just tried powering my Rokuhan switches for the first time. They are indeed momentary, and they can overheat with too much voltage or too much
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jan 19, 2014

                    Garth, I just tried powering my Rokuhan switches for the first time.


                    They are indeed momentary, and they can overheat with too much voltage or too much operation.


                    I found an old post of yours on Z central station that states that they operate differently:


                    " The internal switch configuration cuts power to the turnout motor once it
                    has reached it's destination at either end of travel preventing burn
                    out. so you don't need to turn off the power to the switch once it
                    reaches is destination."


                    http://www.zcentralstation.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=39&id=10658&Itemid=212


                    Clearly you have the right info now, but did they ever operate that way, or was this a different product?


                    Still figuring out how to DCC control them.


                    My notes are at: http://www.elmassian.com/z-scale-trains/z-track/rokuhan-track


                    Greg


                  • BAZ
                    If the coil will take DC then Digitrax DS 64 or the DS54 (chip version) will work, as it can be set to bipolar- or twin-coil. Both versions only pulse the
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jan 20, 2014
                      If the coil will take DC then Digitrax DS 64 or the DS54 (chip version) will work, as it can be set to bipolar- or twin-coil. Both versions only pulse the outputs. I need to take a look but I think they can also switch AC.


                      Jeff

                      Sent 'from the road'

                      On Jan 19, 2014, at 10:34 PM, <greg@...> wrote:

                       

                      Garth, I just tried powering my Rokuhan switches for the first time.


                      They are indeed momentary, and they can overheat with too much voltage or too much operation.


                      I found an old post of yours on Z central station that states that they operate differently:


                      " The internal switch configuration cuts power to the turnout motor once it
                      has reached it's destination at either end of travel preventing burn
                      out. so you don't need to turn off the power to the switch once it
                      reaches is destination."


                      http://www.zcentralstation.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=39&id=10658&Itemid=212


                      Clearly you have the right info now, but did they ever operate that way, or was this a different product?


                      Still figuring out how to DCC control them.


                      My notes are at: http://www.elmassian.com/z-scale-trains/z-track/rokuhan-track


                      Greg


                    • ahellary
                      Hi there I use a mixture of ds54’s and cml electronics dac10/ dac 20 and I must admit the the dac 20 is the better option …. And its slightly cheaper than
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jan 20, 2014
                        Hi there







                        I use a mixture of ds54’s and cml electronics dac10/ dac 20 and I must admit the the dac 20 is the better option …. And its slightly cheaper than the ds option



                        Tony the worm keeper

                        From: z_scale@yahoogroups.com [mailto:z_scale@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of BAZ
                        Sent: 20 January 2014 08:58
                        To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                        Cc: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                        Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Help with setting up a turnout control panel





                        If the coil will take DC then Digitrax DS 64 or the DS54 (chip version) will work, as it can be set to bipolar- or twin-coil. Both versions only pulse the outputs. I need to take a look but I think they can also switch AC.



                        Jeff



                        Sent 'from the road'


                        On Jan 19, 2014, at 10:34 PM, <greg@...> wrote:



                        Garth, I just tried powering my Rokuhan switches for the first time.



                        They are indeed momentary, and they can overheat with too much voltage or too much operation.



                        I found an old post of yours on Z central station that states that they operate differently:



                        " The internal switch configuration cuts power to the turnout motor once it
                        has reached it's destination at either end of travel preventing burn
                        out. so you don't need to turn off the power to the switch once it
                        reaches is destination."



                        http://www.zcentralstation.com/index.php?option=com_kunena <http://www.zcentralstation.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=39&id=10658&Itemid=212> &func=view&catid=39&id=10658&Itemid=212



                        Clearly you have the right info now, but did they ever operate that way, or was this a different product?



                        Still figuring out how to DCC control them.



                        My notes are at: http://www.elmassian.com/z-scale-trains/z-track/rokuhan-track



                        Greg







                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • trainssd
                        Jeff, the DS-64 will indeed work in non-pulsed mode and DC polarity reversal, that is how I am using them on my G scale layout, I have 7 of them, so I know
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jan 20, 2014

                          Jeff, the DS-64 will indeed work in non-pulsed mode and DC polarity reversal, that is how I am using them on my G scale layout, I have 7 of them, so I know this works. I also know they will pulse the outputs too.

                          So the statement that they "only pulse the outputs" is not correct, sorry.

                          What I do not know, until I research it, is if it will do BOTH pulsed and polarity reversal at the SAME time.

                          Getting close to lunch, maybe I can read up online, but actually programming one and observing it is paramount to not melting down my tiny switch motors, got one hot the other day and it did NOT like it!

                          Greg

                        • trainssd
                          Further reading reveals this: you set the DS64 for either solenoid or stall type... their language. solenoid is pulsed output, stall is continuous. The
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jan 20, 2014

                            Further reading reveals this:

                            you set the DS64 for either solenoid or stall type... their language.

                            solenoid is pulsed output, stall is continuous.

                            The "revelation" is that the outputs in EITHER mode are capable of polarity reversal or "dual coil" with a common. (their terminology is 3 wire solenoid, or 2 wire bipolar)

                            So, you can have 4 combinations, one of which will be the 2 wire bipolar momentary I need. Cool.

                            This this is not small, since my application is to put the electronics on the underside of a G scale flat car, with the Z scale layout on top, but at least I have one electronic solution.

                            Regards, Greg

                          • trainssd
                            Whoops... found the DS51k1 decoder, a little bitty thing that is made for Kato Unitrack, and fits in their turnout housing. Ordered 3, may be just the ticket
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jan 20, 2014

                              Whoops... found the DS51k1 decoder, a little bitty thing that is made for Kato Unitrack, and fits in their turnout housing. Ordered 3, may be just the ticket for Rokuhan turnouts.


                              It has 2 track leads, a programming lead and 2 leads to the switch motor.

                              Greg



                            • garthah
                              That was an early sample I had not the first production units. Garth
                              Message 14 of 17 , Jan 22, 2014

                                That was an early sample I had not the first production units. 


                                Garth

                              • trainssd
                                Ahh, thanks Garth, I was very curious how they could have added the power disconnect circuitry i such a small package. Would have liked to have seen how they
                                Message 15 of 17 , Jan 24, 2014

                                  Ahh, thanks Garth, I was very curious how they could have added the "power disconnect" circuitry i such a small package. Would have liked to have seen how they did it.

                                  I've had one of three of my turnouts work sluggishly on 6v, the other two work great at 6v.

                                  The current at 10v seems excessive, but of course it all depends on the length of the pulse.

                                  I got my DS51k1 decoders, and am going to use a diode network to drop the output voltage down to about 6 volts and test, will post my results here. My PowerCab seems to put out about 13 volts DCC, but will put the scope on all of this and get accurate readings to report.

                                  Regards, Greg



                                • BAZ
                                  I replace the Power Cab supply with a 12v 3A wart. The original Power Cabs shipped with a 13.8 1.5A supply. Not only was the voltage too high but the current
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Jan 25, 2014
                                    I replace the Power Cab supply with a 12v 3A wart. The original Power Cabs shipped with a 13.8 1.5A supply. Not only was the voltage too high but the current was below the Power Cab's 2A limit, thus completely shutting down and restarting the Power Cab, a several second process !  That will get you a volt and a half but still should put some 3A diode strings of diodes in the decoder supply. A pair of 5-6 Zeners would do the trick but the higher current ones are harder to find.

                                    NMRA decoder's are supposed to work at 7.5 V but I wouldn't push that.

                                    Since each decoder output pair is much lower current than the total, why not use a pair of 1A typical 5-6 volts zeners should work.

                                    If you are using a 3 wire output (not in this case, just a single Zener or couple of diodes in the Blue lead is all that would be needed.



                                    Jeff

                                    Sent 'from the road'

                                    On Jan 24, 2014, at 8:11 PM, <greg@...> wrote:

                                     

                                    Ahh, thanks Garth, I was very curious how they could have added the "power disconnect" circuitry i such a small package. Would have liked to have seen how they did it.

                                    I've had one of three of my turnouts work sluggishly on 6v, the other two work great at 6v.

                                    The current at 10v seems excessive, but of course it all depends on the length of the pulse.

                                    I got my DS51k1 decoders, and am going to use a diode network to drop the output voltage down to about 6 volts and test, will post my results here. My PowerCab seems to put out about 13 volts DCC, but will put the scope on all of this and get accurate readings to report.

                                    Regards, Greg



                                  • trainssd
                                    Sorry, I was not clear.... I will drop the output voltage from the decoder, not the main power. Since the 13 volts is sort of standard DCC for us (even though
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Jan 27, 2014

                                      Sorry, I was not clear.... I will drop the output voltage from the decoder, not the main power.


                                      Since the 13 volts is sort of standard DCC for us (even though Z should use less) I prefer to make my stuff work on what others have in the main case.


                                      Also, dropping the main track voltage can make some decoders iffy...


                                      A small diode network will suffice, the ones that involve a full wave bridge are most compact.


                                      Greg

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