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Re: [Z_Scale] Z scale rivets?

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  • Erwin Dunbar
    On 1/35, 1/48/ 1/72, 1/76 I use a small Needle. I push into the Plastic and i makes a small bump around the hole. When Painted the hole is filled and it looks
    Message 1 of 6 , May 19, 2013
      On 1/35, 1/48/ 1/72, 1/76 I use a small Needle. I push into the Plastic and
      i makes a small bump around the hole. When Painted the hole is filled and it
      looks like a Rivet. I have never done it in 1/220 scale. Good luck Don
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Brian" <cornbeltroute@...>
      To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 1:17 PM
      Subject: [Z_Scale] Z scale rivets?


      > I've begun converting my 1:1 scale NE-5 caboose CAD drawing to Z scale.
      > It's an interesting project for me. I look forward to seeing what results
      > on the mill table.
      >
      > As an aside, though, the other day as a test, I CNC mill cut a couple
      > dozen Z scale rivets, .0022" diameter and .0022" tall. Even with my
      > magnifier on, I couldn't find 'em on the styrene sheet after the cut
      > finished.
      >
      > I think either they were sheared off during cutting because the plastic is
      > too soft and they were too small, or they're just too small to be seen.
      > Since the cut only required 90 seconds, I'll try it on a harder material,
      > acrylic.
      >
      > But, what is the common practice in Z scale, are rivets usually included
      > on model products, or not? I'm inclined to follow Joe S.'s decision for
      > his project and not include rivets.
      >
      > There is another option for rivets I can experiment with, if Z scalers are
      > interested:
      >
      > Rivet innies instead of outies.
      >
      > Using a pyramid-shaped cutter, drive the point into the material just deep
      > enough to make a hole .0022" wide at the surface. Weathering, then, would
      > reveal such dimples maybe (if they're just not too small) and they would
      > look like rivets unless placed under a microscope.
      >
      > But, could even they be seen at two feet? If not, why bother?
      >
      > Just attempting to discover more about Z scale. Thanks much.
      >
      > -Brian Chapman
      > Evansdale, Iowa
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Z-scale: minimum siZe, MAXIMUM enjoyment!
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
    • Alan Cox
      ... For etching it s easy enough to do but I can see it being a problem with some of the other techniques. I do put rivets on etches or sometimes marks on the
      Message 2 of 6 , May 19, 2013
        > But, what is the common practice in Z scale, are rivets usually included on model products, or not? I'm inclined to follow Joe S.'s decision for his project and not include rivets.

        For etching it's easy enough to do but I can see it being a problem with
        some of the other techniques. I do put rivets on etches or sometimes
        marks on the back so you can tap rivets through (eg when they can't be
        etched on directly). Likewise on 3D print although its pretty tight in Z
        or N to do that with current materials.

        > There is another option for rivets I can experiment with, if Z scalers are interested:
        >
        > Rivet innies instead of outies.

        IMHO it can sometimes work and sometimes look weird.

        > But, could even they be seen at two feet? If not, why bother?

        It's certainly possible to add rivets after the fact given sufficient
        dedication even in Z scale. A tiny bit of CA glue, a very fine pin and a
        steady hand (or a jig) will do the trick.

        I'm not sure rivets matter that much in Z - at least not to most
        modellers. Given they generally use the hideous fat rtr track and wheels
        there are other priorities than rivets for finescaling !

        In N I'd say the mattered though.

        Alan
      • BAZ
        Divots actually look amazingly like rivets. I have lots of pix but no time to dig them up. All the laser kits use divots. The plastic likely gave way, but also
        Message 3 of 6 , May 19, 2013
          Divots actually look amazingly like rivets. I have lots of pix but no time to dig them up. All the laser kits use divots.

          The plastic likely gave way, but also type of cut head (2 or 4 flute, side versus end/combo, etc.). Try a bevel cutter and slower move at decent cutting speed. Your quill or table may actually have more 'vibration' that reduces that oo2 down to near zero. You certainly should see oo2 with any magnifier!

          Jeff
          SF Bay Area Z

          Sent 'from the road'

          On May 19, 2013, at 3:49 PM, Alan Cox <alan@...> wrote:

          > > But, what is the common practice in Z scale, are rivets usually included on model products, or not? I'm inclined to follow Joe S.'s decision for his project and not include rivets.
          >
          > For etching it's easy enough to do but I can see it being a problem with
          > some of the other techniques. I do put rivets on etches or sometimes
          > marks on the back so you can tap rivets through (eg when they can't be
          > etched on directly). Likewise on 3D print although its pretty tight in Z
          > or N to do that with current materials.
          >
          > > There is another option for rivets I can experiment with, if Z scalers are interested:
          > >
          > > Rivet innies instead of outies.
          >
          > IMHO it can sometimes work and sometimes look weird.
          >
          > > But, could even they be seen at two feet? If not, why bother?
          >
          > It's certainly possible to add rivets after the fact given sufficient
          > dedication even in Z scale. A tiny bit of CA glue, a very fine pin and a
          > steady hand (or a jig) will do the trick.
          >
          > I'm not sure rivets matter that much in Z - at least not to most
          > modellers. Given they generally use the hideous fat rtr track and wheels
          > there are other priorities than rivets for finescaling !
          >
          > In N I'd say the mattered though.
          >
          > Alan
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • dpstripe
          This is just my opinion, but until quite recently, even in injection molded products, the practice was to produce over sized rivets, to give the feel of the
          Message 4 of 6 , May 19, 2013
            This is just my opinion, but until quite recently, even in injection molded products, the practice was to produce over sized rivets, to give the "feel" of the proto-type. This works out on most things, but on others, they sort of over do it a bit. More recent injection items have gone more prototypical. That being said, here is a picture of a Micro-trains Norteastern caboose:

            http://www.zscalemonster.com/mt/caboose/535-00-190.jpg

            While the rivets might be appealing to some people, would it be noticed if they were never there in the first place? Especially if the major seems were still visible?

            Just my opinion.
            Dan S.



            -----Original Message-----
            From: Brian <cornbeltroute@...>
            To: z_scale <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sun, May 19, 2013 3:17 pm
            Subject: [Z_Scale] Z scale rivets?




            I've begun converting my 1:1 scale NE-5 caboose CAD drawing to Z scale. It's an interesting project for me. I look forward to seeing what results on the mill table.

            As an aside, though, the other day as a test, I CNC mill cut a couple dozen Z scale rivets, .0022" diameter and .0022" tall. Even with my magnifier on, I couldn't find 'em on the styrene sheet after the cut finished.

            I think either they were sheared off during cutting because the plastic is too soft and they were too small, or they're just too small to be seen. Since the cut only required 90 seconds, I'll try it on a harder material, acrylic.

            But, what is the common practice in Z scale, are rivets usually included on model products, or not? I'm inclined to follow Joe S.'s decision for his project and not include rivets.

            There is another option for rivets I can experiment with, if Z scalers are interested:

            Rivet innies instead of outies.

            Using a pyramid-shaped cutter, drive the point into the material just deep enough to make a hole .0022" wide at the surface. Weathering, then, would reveal such dimples maybe (if they're just not too small) and they would look like rivets unless placed under a microscope.

            But, could even they be seen at two feet? If not, why bother?

            Just attempting to discover more about Z scale. Thanks much.

            -Brian Chapman
            Evansdale, Iowa







            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • BAZ
            In the Tooling world, the rivets are actual holes, filled with plastic. In at least the N and especially Z scale, they are not drilled rather done by EDM
            Message 5 of 6 , May 20, 2013
              In the Tooling world, the rivets are actual holes, filled with plastic. In at least the N and especially Z scale, they are not 'drilled' rather done by EDM (Electron Discharge Machining), essentially arcing a hole slowly in the surface. It's getting better. From the injection side, there is also a reliability factor in that there can be issues with filling all holes uniformly or not tearing them off.

              AZL's containers were incredibly peppered with rivet detail ! While oversized (practicality), they sure looked *really* good to me and were a welcome addition. Then again, so we rarely see them on the metal bracing overlay for say brace side box or hoppers.

              I'll take then in any flavor but for laser work, it's easy to divot. It's easy to get down to o.001" with the beam.

              Jeff

              Sent 'from the road'

              On May 19, 2013, at 10:46 PM, dpstripe@... wrote:

              >
              > This is just my opinion, but until quite recently, even in injection molded products, the practice was to produce over sized rivets, to give the "feel" of the proto-type. This works out on most things, but on others, they sort of over do it a bit. More recent injection items have gone more prototypical. That being said, here is a picture of a Micro-trains Norteastern caboose:
              >
              > http://www.zscalemonster.com/mt/caboose/535-00-190.jpg
              >
              > While the rivets might be appealing to some people, would it be noticed if they were never there in the first place? Especially if the major seems were still visible?
              >
              > Just my opinion.
              > Dan S.
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Brian <cornbeltroute@...>
              > To: z_scale <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Sun, May 19, 2013 3:17 pm
              > Subject: [Z_Scale] Z scale rivets?
              >
              > I've begun converting my 1:1 scale NE-5 caboose CAD drawing to Z scale. It's an interesting project for me. I look forward to seeing what results on the mill table.
              >
              > As an aside, though, the other day as a test, I CNC mill cut a couple dozen Z scale rivets, .0022" diameter and .0022" tall. Even with my magnifier on, I couldn't find 'em on the styrene sheet after the cut finished.
              >
              > I think either they were sheared off during cutting because the plastic is too soft and they were too small, or they're just too small to be seen. Since the cut only required 90 seconds, I'll try it on a harder material, acrylic.
              >
              > But, what is the common practice in Z scale, are rivets usually included on model products, or not? I'm inclined to follow Joe S.'s decision for his project and not include rivets.
              >
              > There is another option for rivets I can experiment with, if Z scalers are interested:
              >
              > Rivet innies instead of outies.
              >
              > Using a pyramid-shaped cutter, drive the point into the material just deep enough to make a hole .0022" wide at the surface. Weathering, then, would reveal such dimples maybe (if they're just not too small) and they would look like rivets unless placed under a microscope.
              >
              > But, could even they be seen at two feet? If not, why bother?
              >
              > Just attempting to discover more about Z scale. Thanks much.
              >
              > -Brian Chapman
              > Evansdale, Iowa
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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