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Re: electric pick-up problems Wheel spacing

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  • mark2playz
    Bret, Kinda complicated answer. The back-to-back measurement should be 0.214 +0.002 -0.007 inches per the NMRA Standard 4.2. But you may want to get a copy of
    Message 1 of 8 , Apr 29, 2013
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      Bret,
      Kinda complicated answer. The back-to-back measurement should be 0.214 +0.002 -0.007 inches per the NMRA Standard 4.2. But you may want to get a copy of the fill spec from nmra.org. As I tried to point out to the Z Standards group a couple years back, the tolerance on the standard dimensions do allow for wheel sets that won't work well.

      Hope this helps,
      Mark

      --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Bret" <azbret59@...> wrote:
      >
      > I have been repairing z scale engines for people. I always have trouble with the engines being sloppy between the rails causing terrible electric pick-up problems... I always find that the wheel sets are squeezed together making the engines jumpy and not able to have good contact.. Does anyone know what the correct wheel spacing measurement is to fit the track??
      > THX Bret
      >
    • BAZ
      Well . . . the back-to-back sets a guide for inside turnout guard rails but doesn t account the variation in the flange and tread profile. Even the
      Message 2 of 8 , Apr 29, 2013
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        Well . . . the back-to-back sets a guide for inside turnout guard rails but doesn't account the variation in the flange and tread profile. Even the manufacturers have issues, with manufacturing tolerance on wheels to turnouts. Märklin locos, turnouts and Rokohan track have never had gauge issues.

        I use both the Nn3 standard gauge (via Northwest Short Line) and MTL's track/coupler gauge. I find that if any manufacturers flange (that maximal diameter part) it's in the *middle* of the notch, it run on anything. A few thou either way (the width of that notch) and you can have issues.

        Rodney's tools made a wheel gauge tool. Needs a chamfer gradient files on one edge to allow it to get on under gauges axles. Still, check the flange. At least it makes the wheels parallel (some just put a screwdriver in there and wedge the wheel out, causing wobbling.

        Jeff
        SF Bay Area Z


        Sent 'from the road'

        On Apr 29, 2013, at 7:38 AM, "mark2playz" <mark.markham@...> wrote:

        > Bret,
        > Kinda complicated answer. The back-to-back measurement should be 0.214 +0.002 -0.007 inches per the NMRA Standard 4.2. But you may want to get a copy of the fill spec from nmra.org. As I tried to point out to the Z Standards group a couple years back, the tolerance on the standard dimensions do allow for wheel sets that won't work well.
        >
        > Hope this helps,
        > Mark
        >
        > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Bret" <azbret59@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > I have been repairing z scale engines for people. I always have trouble with the engines being sloppy between the rails causing terrible electric pick-up problems... I always find that the wheel sets are squeezed together making the engines jumpy and not able to have good contact.. Does anyone know what the correct wheel spacing measurement is to fit the track??
        > > THX Bret
        > >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • mark2playz
        Jeff, I agree back-to-back isn t the best number which is why I recommended the S-4.2 document. But since it is specified as a derived value per the standard
        Message 3 of 8 , Apr 29, 2013
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          Jeff,
          I agree back-to-back isn't the best number which is why I recommended the S-4.2 document. But since it is specified as a derived value per the standard it is a little more useful than for guard track placement. It should include the variation of wheel placement and flange width (and implies a tread variation, if one assumes the goal is for the assembly to fit in the truck). But I'll bet a Mikado that at least one manufacturer uses it as a manufacturing standard since it's an easy production measurement.
          I use the NZT clearance gauge as well as MTL's track/coupler gauge, but since we don't know the manufacturing tolerances for them, I'm not sure I recommend them to others. I prefer to rely on my digital micrometer.

          Mark

          --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, BAZ <sjbazman49@...> wrote:
          >
          > Well . . . the back-to-back sets a guide for inside turnout guard rails but doesn't account the variation in the flange and tread profile. Even the manufacturers have issues, with manufacturing tolerance on wheels to turnouts. Märklin locos, turnouts and Rokohan track have never had gauge issues.
          >
          > I use both the Nn3 standard gauge (via Northwest Short Line) and MTL's track/coupler gauge. I find that if any manufacturers flange (that maximal diameter part) it's in the *middle* of the notch, it run on anything. A few thou either way (the width of that notch) and you can have issues.
          >
          > Rodney's tools made a wheel gauge tool. Needs a chamfer gradient files on one edge to allow it to get on under gauges axles. Still, check the flange. At least it makes the wheels parallel (some just put a screwdriver in there and wedge the wheel out, causing wobbling.
          >
          > Jeff
          > SF Bay Area Z
          >
        • de Champeaux Dominique
          Unfortunately there is no real standard for Z scale wheel gauge. Maybe there s a NMRA recommended value but as far as I know there is no available NMRA track
          Message 4 of 8 , Apr 30, 2013
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            Unfortunately there is no real standard for Z scale wheel gauge. Maybe there's a NMRA recommended value but as far as I know there is no available NMRA track and wheel gauge. But one can use the Micro-Trains track and wheel gauge (#988 00 032) in order to have a wheel spacing that matches at least with MTL track and turnouts.

            Dom








            --- En date de : Lun 29.4.13, Bret <azbret59@...> a écrit :

            > De: Bret <azbret59@...>
            > Objet: [Z_Scale] electric pick-up problems Wheel spacing
            > À: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Lundi 29 avril 2013, 15h00
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            > I have been repairing z scale engines for people. I
            > always have trouble with the engines being sloppy between
            > the rails causing terrible electric pick-up problems... I
            > always find that the wheel sets are squeezed together making
            > the engines jumpy and not able to have good contact.. Does
            > anyone know what the correct wheel spacing measurement is to
            > fit the track??
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            > THX Bret
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          • mark2playz
            Dom, The NMRA standard document S-4.2 is: http://www.nmra.org/standards/sandrp/pdf/S-4.2%202010.02.24.pdf I know this standard has been around for at least 25
            Message 5 of 8 , Apr 30, 2013
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              Dom,
              The NMRA standard document S-4.2 is: http://www.nmra.org/standards/sandrp/pdf/S-4.2%202010.02.24.pdf
              I know this standard has been around for at least 25 years as I have a paper copy from the mid eighties. Also, the NMRA has recently issued at least one warrant of compliance for an MTL frieght car. So it is being used. I really haven't measured much of my rolling stock, so I don't know how common compliance is.
              There is a European standard in the NEM310 series. I don't know much more as my railroad German is poor and my railroad French nonexistent.
              Last year I had the time to really study the NMRA standard and Jeff is right: if a wheel set is manufactured to the wrong directions of tolerance, one can have a set that meets the standard that don't work. I brought it up to the Z Standards committee last year and still waiting to hear from them.

              Mark

              --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, de Champeaux Dominique <ddechamp71@...> wrote:
              >
              > Unfortunately there is no real standard for Z scale wheel gauge. Maybe there's a NMRA recommended value but as far as I know there is no available NMRA track and wheel gauge. But one can use the Micro-Trains track and wheel gauge (#988 00 032) in order to have a wheel spacing that matches at least with MTL track and turnouts.
              >
              > Dom
              >
              >
            • de Champeaux Dominique
              Thanks for your input, Mark. But indeed I was (and still am) wondering about the existence of a gauge following NMRA recommendations. I ve no knowledge of such
              Message 6 of 8 , Apr 30, 2013
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                Thanks for your input, Mark. But indeed I was (and still am) wondering about the existence of a gauge following NMRA recommendations. I've no knowledge of such a device, that's why I'm sticking to my MTL sample.
                Dom
                 
                 
                 
                 


                --- En date de : Mar 30.4.13, mark2playz <mark.markham@...> a écrit :


                De: mark2playz <mark.markham@...>
                Objet: Re: Re : [Z_Scale] electric pick-up problems Wheel spacing
                À: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Mardi 30 avril 2013, 16h36



                 



                Dom,
                The NMRA standard document S-4.2 is: http://www.nmra.org/standards/sandrp/pdf/S-4.2%202010.02.24.pdf
                I know this standard has been around for at least 25 years as I have a paper copy from the mid eighties. Also, the NMRA has recently issued at least one warrant of compliance for an MTL frieght car. So it is being used. I really haven't measured much of my rolling stock, so I don't know how common compliance is.
                There is a European standard in the NEM310 series. I don't know much more as my railroad German is poor and my railroad French nonexistent.
                Last year I had the time to really study the NMRA standard and Jeff is right: if a wheel set is manufactured to the wrong directions of tolerance, one can have a set that meets the standard that don't work. I brought it up to the Z Standards committee last year and still waiting to hear from them.

                Mark

                --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, de Champeaux Dominique <ddechamp71@...> wrote:
                >
                > Unfortunately there is no real standard for Z scale wheel gauge. Maybe there's a NMRA recommended value but as far as I know there is no available NMRA track and wheel gauge. But one can use the Micro-Trains track and wheel gauge (#988 00 032) in order to have a wheel spacing that matches at least with MTL track and turnouts.
                >
                > Dom
                >
                >








                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • mark2playz
                Dom, As I understand it, DKS looked into such a gauge when he did the Z clearance gauges, but the costs of doing it right was prohibitively expensive. Mark
                Message 7 of 8 , Apr 30, 2013
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                  Dom,
                  As I understand it, DKS looked into such a gauge when he did the Z clearance gauges, but the costs of doing it right was prohibitively expensive.

                  Mark

                  --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, de Champeaux Dominique <ddechamp71@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Thanks for your input, Mark. But indeed I was (and still am) wondering about the existence of a gauge following NMRA recommendations. I've no knowledge of such a device, that's why I'm sticking to my MTL sample.
                  > Dom
                  >  
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                  > --- En date de : Mar 30.4.13, mark2playz <mark.markham@...> a écrit :
                  >
                  >
                  > De: mark2playz <mark.markham@...>
                  > Objet: Re: Re : [Z_Scale] electric pick-up problems Wheel spacing
                  > À: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Mardi 30 avril 2013, 16h36
                  >
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                  > Dom,
                  > The NMRA standard document S-4.2 is: http://www.nmra.org/standards/sandrp/pdf/S-4.2%202010.02.24.pdf
                  > I know this standard has been around for at least 25 years as I have a paper copy from the mid eighties. Also, the NMRA has recently issued at least one warrant of compliance for an MTL frieght car. So it is being used. I really haven't measured much of my rolling stock, so I don't know how common compliance is.
                  > There is a European standard in the NEM310 series. I don't know much more as my railroad German is poor and my railroad French nonexistent.
                  > Last year I had the time to really study the NMRA standard and Jeff is right: if a wheel set is manufactured to the wrong directions of tolerance, one can have a set that meets the standard that don't work. I brought it up to the Z Standards committee last year and still waiting to hear from them.
                  >
                  > Mark
                  >
                  > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, de Champeaux Dominique <ddechamp71@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Unfortunately there is no real standard for Z scale wheel gauge. Maybe there's a NMRA recommended value but as far as I know there is no available NMRA track and wheel gauge. But one can use the Micro-Trains track and wheel gauge (#988 00 032) in order to have a wheel spacing that matches at least with MTL track and turnouts.
                  > >
                  > > Dom
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