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Re: [Z_Scale] Home made speed controler

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  • Lee Barry
    John,  First and foremost let me welcome you to the land of Oz oops Z. I purchased one of the controllers that Rob Klutz of Z Track magazine and AZL
    Message 1 of 27 , Sep 6, 2012
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      John,
       First and foremost let me welcome you to the land of Oz oops Z. I purchased one of the controllers that Rob Klutz of Z Track magazine and AZL advertised. I got it in Sept/Oct 2010, while having my 37x27x10 layout built by Jim O'Connell of Santee,Ca. I asked Jim aboutit and he recomended to me to get the one that uses either a 9volt battery or the WalPak. He also added extra wire to the one going to the track as my layout only has one plug in, don't make that mistake, put in either 3 or 4, if you don't you'll wish you did. He also put a "male plug-in on the extended wire and a female one on the layout. I have had no trouble with mine. I have run an engine,and 4 cars and a caboose for almost 8 hours on one 9 volt battery. You also might consider buying one of those battery charging sets from WalMart or anywhere they sell them, get the one that will charge all different volts of batteries. I have gotten one yet but am planning on it. Contact Rob and talk
      or e-mail him. I love mine. Again welcome to the world of Z. If you have a question feel free to ask it. There are no stupid questions, only us that ask 'em, ha,ha. Lee Barry Z_SCALE2@.... e-mail me if you want Robs info.

      --- On Thu, 9/6/12, John C <jac1@...> wrote:


      From: John C <jac1@...>
      Subject: [Z_Scale] Home made speed controler
      To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Thursday, September 6, 2012, 6:46 AM



       



      First off I'm new on here and to the world of Z Scale. I picked up a Markin Fun Set and I was hooked.
      I am making a small briefcase set up from scratch and I was wondering if anyone has any plans for a speed controler like the noch 87060. It looks to me like it is only a 9v battery, a dpdt switch, and a potentiometer. Am I missing something? I do not want to fry my new loco right off the bat.








      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jeff
      Wrong ! It will *not* destroy your motor! On coreless motors (MTL GP s, SD-40 & AZL GP-z and SD s only), it *may* cause *some* heating. On all of there other
      Message 2 of 27 , Sep 6, 2012
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        Wrong ! It will *not* "destroy" your motor! On coreless motors (MTL GP's, SD-40 & AZL GP-z and SD's only), it *may* cause *some* heating. On all of there other locos, it will not as they are Permanent Magnet motors (a.k.a. "Can" motors). The problem is most prevalent when the motor is stalled (or heavily loaded), not when running normally.

        Virtually *every* power pack out there is some form of pulsed power! Put an oscilloscope on them and see. Nary a one has pure DC ! (Motors do not run efficiently or well with below rated voltage (e.g. 1-2 volts) so Pulse Power was developed way back when and now, almost every power supply is . . . dah da da da dah . . . PWM! Millions of DCC powered locos out there.


        Jeff M
        SF Bay Area Z

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Lee Barry <z_scale2@...>
        Sender: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 09:03:34
        To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
        Reply-To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Home made speed controler

        Another word of caution, do not use any PULSE settings on any controller or "power pack". It will destroy an engines motor. I am not a victim thanks to some good friends on this site. I was gonna use my "sound and power" transformer I used with my N scale layout and was told I could but not to use the "pulse" switch. Its still in the box where it has been since 2006 when I sold out my N collection. Lee

        --- On Thu, 9/6/12, John C <jac1@...> wrote:


        From: John C <jac1@...>
        Subject: [Z_Scale] Home made speed controler
        To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Thursday, September 6, 2012, 6:46 AM



         



        First off I'm new on here and to the world of Z Scale. I picked up a Markin Fun Set and I was hooked.
        I am making a small briefcase set up from scratch and I was wondering if anyone has any plans for a speed controler like the noch 87060. It looks to me like it is only a 9v battery, a dpdt switch, and a potentiometer. Am I missing something? I do not want to fry my new loco right off the bat.








        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        ------------------------------------

        Z-scale: minimum siZe, MAXIMUM enjoyment!
        Yahoo! Groups Links
      • Lee Barry
        (gentlemen, please trim your posts to just the quote and response for the courtesy of people with monitors less than 10 feet tall, ha ha - Moderators) then
        Message 3 of 27 , Sep 6, 2012
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          (gentlemen, please trim your posts to just the quote and response for the courtesy of people with monitors less than 10 feet tall, ha ha - Moderators)

          then when I started in Z in 2009 why di Rob Klutz,Jim O'Connell, Loren Snyder tell me it would ruin my engine motors. Do they not know of which they speak. Not trying to be HTGAW ( hard to get along with ) but that is what I was told. Sorry to disagree. Do you use pulse with your engines to give them the realistic look os starting slow, rather than moving a dial to do it ? Lee Barry

          --- On Thu, 9/6/12, Jeff <sjbazman49@...> wrote:


          From: Jeff <sjbazman49@...>
          Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Home made speed controler
          To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Thursday, September 6, 2012, 6:01 PM


          Wrong ! It will *not* "destroy" your motor! On coreless motors (MTL GP's, SD-40 & AZL GP-z and SD's only), it *may* cause *some* heating. On all of there other locos, it will not as they are Permanent Magnet motors (a.k.a. "Can" motors). The problem is most prevalent when the motor is stalled (or heavily loaded), not when running normally.

          Virtually *every* power pack out there is some form of pulsed power! Put an oscilloscope on them and see. Nary a one has pure DC ! (Motors do not run efficiently or well with below rated voltage (e.g. 1-2 volts) so Pulse Power was developed way back when and now, almost every power supply is . . . dah da da da dah . . . PWM! Millions of DCC powered locos out there.


          Jeff M
          SF Bay Area Z
        • Jeff
          I don t think they used ruin but the warnings on the MTL boxes have been there a long time. None of the 3 are electronics guys (I have know them personally
          Message 4 of 27 , Sep 6, 2012
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            I don't think they used 'ruin' but the warnings on the MTL boxes have been there a long time. None of the 3 are electronics guys (I have know them personally for a long time). But as Sellers, you certainly want to make sure you don't have returns :)

            All of the basic controllers will start out with some sort of combinination of DC+ some level of pulses. If you are using a Z-thek Snail, Joerger or other sold by Rob *Kluz* and others, these will all put near full battery/DC power to the track/loco at the slowest speed. The pulse on most all simple controllers is 30-150x per second. Let's use 100x per second. So it would pulse it 100x per second but only 'on' for say 100th of that 'on' time or 1%. You get a 'full' power pulse but not 'on' the entire time. So, the motor only moves a little. But it gets 'hammered' essentially full power but only a very short time. This gives the motor great effeciency to move at very slow rotational speed.
            As you turn up the 'speed', the 'on' time is increased, but still 100x per second. And the motor turns faster. Etc.

            Next page on your monitor . . .


            Jeff M
            SF Bay Area Z

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Lee Barry <z_scale2@...>
            Sender: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 11:08:50
            To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
            Reply-To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Home made speed controler

            (gentlemen, please trim your posts to just the quote and response for the courtesy of people with monitors less than 10 feet tall, ha ha - Moderators)

            then when I started in Z in 2009 why di Rob Klutz,Jim O'Connell, Loren Snyder tell me it would ruin my engine motors. Do they not know of which they speak. Not trying to be HTGAW ( hard to get along with ) but that is what I was told. Sorry to disagree. Do you use pulse with your engines to give them the realistic look os starting slow, rather than moving a dial to do it ? Lee Barry

            --- On Thu, 9/6/12, Jeff <sjbazman49@...> wrote:


            From: Jeff <sjbazman49@...>
            Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Home made speed controler
            To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Thursday, September 6, 2012, 6:01 PM


            Wrong ! It will *not* "destroy" your motor! On coreless motors (MTL GP's, SD-40 & AZL GP-z and SD's only), it *may* cause *some* heating. On all of there other locos, it will not as they are Permanent Magnet motors (a.k.a. "Can" motors). The problem is most prevalent when the motor is stalled (or heavily loaded), not when running normally.

            Virtually *every* power pack out there is some form of pulsed power! Put an oscilloscope on them and see. Nary a one has pure DC ! (Motors do not run efficiently or well with below rated voltage (e.g. 1-2 volts) so Pulse Power was developed way back when and now, almost every power supply is . . . dah da da da dah . . . PWM! Millions of DCC powered locos out there.


            Jeff M
            SF Bay Area Z


            ------------------------------------

            Z-scale: minimum siZe, MAXIMUM enjoyment!
            Yahoo! Groups Links
          • Lee Barry
            Jeff, thanks for the info. So that means I can use my MRC Sound & Power I used for my N scale and as long as I set the power to the track below 9 volts say
            Message 5 of 27 , Sep 6, 2012
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              Jeff, thanks for the info. So that means I can use my MRC Sound & Power I used for my N scale and as long as I set the power to the track below 9 volts say 8-81/2 Volts I can use 
              it. Let me know. If you need all of the info on the thing I'll get back with on it.
               Now as to having trouble with returning something thats not right, I did return an engine to Loren, he messed with it and could not get it right. He took it to MTL and they goit it right or replaced it. I have not had any problems with either of the two in this regard or any regard. Now as to Jim O'Connell I have not had any problems with the layout he built me in July-Oct,2010. As you can see in the pictures I posted on line it is a beautiful piece of work. I too know how sellars are, I don't even go on E-Bay as they are looking for suckers there. The only thing I wished was that when I had the money to have a layout built I would have gotten it 48"x36" inlieu of the 37"x27" so I could run SD40-2s on it. I can run them on mine but they look funny and almost hit the tunnel portal when they come out of it, but as Jim told me when I asked him about it "a miss is as good as a mile". I would also like to use longer cars than 40' but they too look funny on
              the curves, kinda reminds me of those Lionel 85' passenger cars on the curves. Lee 


              --- On Thu, 9/6/12, Jeff <sjbazman49@...> wrote:


              From: Jeff <sjbazman49@...>
              Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Home made speed controler
              To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thursday, September 6, 2012, 6:36 PM

              I don't think they used 'ruin' but the warnings on the MTL boxes have been there a long time. None of the 3 are electronics guys (I have know them personally for a long time). But as Sellers, you certainly want to make sure you don't have returns :)

              All of the basic controllers will start out with some sort of combinination of DC+ some level of pulses. If you are using a Z-thek Snail, Joerger or other sold by Rob *Kluz* and others, these will all put near full battery/DC power to the track/loco at the slowest speed. The pulse on most all simple controllers is 30-150x per second. Let's use 100x per second. So it would pulse it 100x per second but only 'on' for say 100th of that 'on' time or 1%. You get a 'full' power pulse but not 'on' the entire time. So, the motor only moves a little. But it gets 'hammered' essentially full power but only a very short time. This gives the motor great effeciency to move at very slow rotational speed.
              As you turn up the 'speed', the 'on' time is increased, but still 100x per second. And the motor turns faster. Etc.

              Next page on your monitor . . .
            • John C
              Thanks for all of the information but none of it answered my question. I am building a briefcase setup and I want to build the control into the layout, I
              Message 6 of 27 , Sep 6, 2012
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                Thanks for all of the information but none of it answered my question. I am building a briefcase setup and I want to build the control into the layout, I looked at the snail controler but I would have to tear it apart to use it. I want to use a 9v battery only. It is only about 18.5 x 13.5 inches. I am looking for a wiring diagram to to wire in a poteniometer for speed and a toggle for forward/reverse I can order just what I want from NOCH but I would prefer to build it myself.
              • mark2playz
                John, Welcome to Z. I ve posted the most basic schematic possible for your need: z controller.jpg. No protection circuit, no power/direction indicator. If you
                Message 7 of 27 , Sep 6, 2012
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                  John,
                  Welcome to Z. I've posted the most basic schematic possible for your need: z controller.jpg. No protection circuit, no power/direction indicator. If you don't already have the components. I think you'll find they'll cost more than one of the snail controllers. Good luck and I hope this helps.

                  Mark

                  --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "John C" <jac1@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Thanks for all of the information but none of it answered my question. I am building a briefcase setup and I want to build the control into the layout, I looked at the snail controler but I would have to tear it apart to use it. I want to use a 9v battery only. It is only about 18.5 x 13.5 inches. I am looking for a wiring diagram to to wire in a poteniometer for speed and a toggle for forward/reverse I can order just what I want from NOCH but I would prefer to build it myself.
                  >
                • Jeff
                  you can t just use a battery and resistor. Depending on the load, the resistor drops more or less voltage. So, the loco runs ever more slowly up a hill and
                  Message 8 of 27 , Sep 6, 2012
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                    you can't just use a battery and resistor. Depending on the load, the resistor
                    drops more or less voltage. So, the loco runs ever more slowly up a hill and
                    very fast down. It will jerk or even stall when it gets binding spots. The power
                    lost in the resistor could be 1 or more Watts ( near a nite light bulb
                    equivalent).  You need an electronic regulator.  A simple $1 LM317 would do, but
                    without some trickery, it can only go down to 1.5 v so a loco would never stop
                    and, you still dissapate heat (less battery life). There are 1000's of 555 timer
                    circuites on the Internet to make PWM that you could try and emulate the small
                    controllers.

                    The small controllers do cost some money but the PC board inside is very small
                    and would easily fit in anything. I have them in several small layouts.  Your
                    time to investigate and experiment and fry or go into the unknow gotcha is worth
                    the simplicity of taking the power and knob nuts off to mount it where ever.
                     Jeff
                    SF Bay Area Z




                    ________________________________
                    From: John C <jac1@...>
                    To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thu, September 6, 2012 5:16:24 PM
                    Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: Home made speed controler

                    Thanks for all of the information but none of it answered my question. I am
                    building a briefcase setup and I want to build the control into the layout, I
                    looked at the snail controler but I would have to tear it apart to use it. I
                    want to use a 9v battery only. It is only about 18.5 x 13.5 inches. I am looking
                    for a wiring diagram to to wire in a poteniometer for speed and a toggle for
                    forward/reverse I can order just what I want from NOCH but I would prefer to
                    build it myself.



                    ------------------------------------

                    Z-scale:  minimum siZe, MAXIMUM enjoyment!
                    Yahoo! Groups Links



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Jeff
                    If he runs 1 MTL F7, it will almost run at half way with that 100 ohm pot.  With 1 AZL or MTL GP, it will hardly slow down.  Jeff SF Bay Area Z
                    Message 9 of 27 , Sep 6, 2012
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                      If he runs 1 MTL F7, it will almost run at half way with that 100 ohm
                      pot.  With 1 AZL or MTL GP, it will hardly slow down.
                       Jeff
                      SF Bay Area Z




                      ________________________________
                      From: mark2playz <mark.markham@...>
                      To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thu, September 6, 2012 6:22:26 PM
                      Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: Home made speed controler

                      John,
                        Welcome to Z. I've posted the most basic schematic possible for your need: z
                      controller.jpg. No protection circuit, no power/direction indicator. If you
                      don't already have the components. I think you'll find they'll cost more than
                      one of the snail controllers. Good luck and I hope this helps.

                      Mark

                      --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "John C" <jac1@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Thanks for all of the information but none of it answered my question. I am
                      >building a briefcase setup and I want to build the control into the layout, I
                      >looked at the snail controler but I would have to tear it apart to use it. I
                      >want to use a 9v battery only. It is only about 18.5 x 13.5 inches. I am looking
                      >for a wiring diagram to to wire in a poteniometer for speed and a toggle for
                      >forward/reverse I can order just what I want from NOCH but I would prefer to
                      >build it myself.
                      >




                      ------------------------------------

                      Z-scale:  minimum siZe, MAXIMUM enjoyment!
                      Yahoo! Groups Links



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • mark2playz
                      Jeff, A battery and resistor works...just not very well. I think that in a layout this size, going up and down a hill won t be much of an issue. I use 317s
                      Message 10 of 27 , Sep 6, 2012
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                        Jeff,
                        A battery and resistor works...just not very well. I think that in a layout this size, going up and down a hill won't be much of an issue.
                        I use '317s all the time, but after adding short-circuit diodes, a polarity diode, and transient supression passives, it's not all that simple and I wouldn't encourage it's use.
                        The December 1977 issue of Model RR has a good piece for a DC controller with options for Z.
                        Since a 2 wt control is as big as the snail circuit and buying the components from scratch cost about as much, I'd probably just install a snail unit.

                        Mark

                        --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Jeff <sjbazman49@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > you can't just use a battery and resistor. Depending on the load, the resistor
                        > drops more or less voltage. So, the loco runs ever more slowly up a hill and
                        > very fast down. It will jerk or even stall when it gets binding spots. The power
                        > lost in the resistor could be 1 or more Watts ( near a nite light bulb
                        > equivalent).  You need an electronic regulator.  A simple $1 LM317 would do, but
                        > without some trickery, it can only go down to 1.5 v so a loco would never stop
                        > and, you still dissapate heat (less battery life). There are 1000's of 555 timer
                        > circuites on the Internet to make PWM that you could try and emulate the small
                        > controllers.
                        >
                        > The small controllers do cost some money but the PC board inside is very small
                        > and would easily fit in anything. I have them in several small layouts.  Your
                        > time to investigate and experiment and fry or go into the unknow gotcha is worth
                        > the simplicity of taking the power and knob nuts off to mount it where ever.
                        >  Jeff
                        > SF Bay Area Z
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ________________________________
                        > From: John C <jac1@...>
                        > To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Thu, September 6, 2012 5:16:24 PM
                        > Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: Home made speed controler
                        >
                        > Thanks for all of the information but none of it answered my question. I am
                        > building a briefcase setup and I want to build the control into the layout, I
                        > looked at the snail controler but I would have to tear it apart to use it. I
                        > want to use a 9v battery only. It is only about 18.5 x 13.5 inches. I am looking
                        > for a wiring diagram to to wire in a poteniometer for speed and a toggle for
                        > forward/reverse I can order just what I want from NOCH but I would prefer to
                        > build it myself.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Z-scale:  minimum siZe, MAXIMUM enjoyment!
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • John C
                        Thanks everyone, you guys are great. I guess I will just order that snail speed controler. I can just take it apart and mount it in the layout.
                        Message 11 of 27 , Sep 6, 2012
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                          Thanks everyone, you guys are great. I guess I will just order that snail speed controler. I can just take it apart and mount it in the layout.
                        • Alan Cox
                          On Fri, 07 Sep 2012 00:09:42 -0000 ... There is a reason that battery controllers don t do this. They generate the reference voltage by running power through
                          Message 12 of 27 , Sep 7, 2012
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                            On Fri, 07 Sep 2012 00:09:42 -0000
                            "John C" <jac1@...> wrote:

                            > Thanks for all of the information but none of it answered my question. I am building a briefcase setup and I want to build the control into the layout, I looked at the snail controler but I would have to tear it apart to use it. I want to use a 9v battery only. It is only about 18.5 x 13.5 inches. I am looking for a wiring diagram to to wire in a poteniometer for speed and a toggle for forward/reverse I can order just what I want from NOCH but I would prefer to build it myself.

                            There is a reason that battery controllers don't do this. They generate
                            the reference voltage by running power through the potentiometer and
                            tapping off it with the knob. If you do that with a battery it will very
                            rapidly go flat. You need a rather more efficient and complex controller
                            to do battery with speed control.

                            Alan
                          • viktor_kovacs
                            Hi, What you are looking for is called the LM317 voltage regulator ic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LM317 This is what marklin is using for it s wall adapter
                            Message 13 of 27 , Sep 7, 2012
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                              Hi,

                              What you are looking for is called the LM317 voltage
                              regulator ic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LM317
                              This is what marklin is using for it's wall adapter
                              controllers, but it can be run from a battery or anything
                              that puts out DC. The extra components you will need are
                              a potmeter for regulating the speed, a dptt switch to
                              switch the direction (wiring was posted for this, it's
                              called an on-off-on switch) and optionally 2 capacitors
                              in parallel to filter the noise. It is a 3 pin chip, so
                              it's very easy to wire it up and really cheap. Adding
                              a protection diode between the circuit and the battery
                              prevents frying the circuit if the batter is connected
                              with the wrong polarity. The circuit should looke like
                              the following: battery, diode, regulator ic with
                              potmeter and capacitors (see LM317 datasheet for
                              example), dptt on-off-on switch, tracks. Essentially
                              this is what marklin sells as it's official Z scale
                              controller. (they just integrated the direction
                              switching into the knob that regulates the speed)

                              The good side of this regulator ic is that it puts out a
                              smooth dc voltage regardless of the load. The bad side is
                              that it's burning the rest of the power off, so the train
                              could be run for the same time regardless of the speed.
                              It's also safe for locomotives with pager motors, that
                              couldn't the the full 9V of the battery or the pwm signal
                              of more modern regulators.

                              best wishes: Viktor

                              --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "John C" <jac1@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Thanks for all of the information but none of it answered my question. I am building a briefcase setup and I want to build the control into the layout, I looked at the snail controler but I would have to tear it apart to use it. I want to use a 9v battery only. It is only about 18.5 x 13.5 inches. I am looking for a wiring diagram to to wire in a poteniometer for speed and a toggle for forward/reverse I can order just what I want from NOCH but I would prefer to build it myself.
                              >
                            • Lee Barry
                              orry to have misunderstood you, although it did lead to a lot of conversation about controllers. Lee CEO LZPMRR ... From: John C Subject:
                              Message 14 of 27 , Sep 7, 2012
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                                orry to have misunderstood you, although it did lead to a lot of conversation about controllers. Lee CEO LZPMRR

                                --- On Fri, 9/7/12, John C <jac1@...> wrote:

                                From: John C <jac1@...>
                                Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: Home made speed controler
                                To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Friday, September 7, 2012, 12:09 AM

                                Thanks for all of the information but none of it answered my question. I am building a briefcase setup and I want to build the control into the layout, I looked at the snail controler but I would have to tear it apart to use it. I want to use a 9v battery only. It is only about 18.5 x 13.5 inches. I am looking for a wiring diagram to to wire in a poteniometer for speed and a toggle for forward/reverse I can order just what I want from NOCH but I would prefer to build it myself.
                              • ddechamp71@yahoo.fr
                                Pulse power is no problem as long as peak voltage remains under our small Z motors limitations. There begins to be some o heating problems on our small motorZ
                                Message 15 of 27 , Sep 7, 2012
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                                  Pulse power is no problem as long as peak voltage remains under our small Z motors' limitations. There begins to be some o'heating problems on our small motorZ when one uses pulse power coming from O or HO power packs, delivering crest voltages of 12V or more.. I've already fried 3 Faulhaber motors with this kind of stuff.
                                  Dom






                                  Ce message a été envoyé depuis un terminal BlackBerry de Bouygues Telecom

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: "Jeff" <sjbazman49@...>
                                  Sender: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 18:01:17
                                  To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Reply-To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Home made speed controler

                                  Wrong ! It will *not* "destroy" your motor! On coreless motors (MTL GP's, SD-40 & AZL GP-z and SD's only), it *may* cause *some* heating. On all of there other locos, it will not as they are Permanent Magnet motors (a.k.a. "Can" motors). The problem is most prevalent when the motor is stalled (or heavily loaded), not when running normally.

                                  Virtually *every* power pack out there is some form of pulsed power! Put an oscilloscope on them and see. Nary a one has pure DC ! (Motors do not run efficiently or well with below rated voltage (e.g. 1-2 volts) so Pulse Power was developed way back when and now, almost every power supply is . . . dah da da da dah . . . PWM! Millions of DCC powered locos out there.


                                  Jeff M
                                  SF Bay Area Z

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: Lee Barry <z_scale2@...>
                                  Sender: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 09:03:34
                                  To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Reply-To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Home made speed controler

                                  Another word of caution, do not use any PULSE settings on any controller or "power pack". It will destroy an engines motor. I am not a victim thanks to some good friends on this site. I was gonna use my "sound and power" transformer I used with my N scale layout and was told I could but not to use the "pulse" switch. Its still in the box where it has been since 2006 when I sold out my N collection. Lee

                                  --- On Thu, 9/6/12, John C <jac1@...> wrote:


                                  From: John C <jac1@...>
                                  Subject: [Z_Scale] Home made speed controler
                                  To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Thursday, September 6, 2012, 6:46 AM



                                   



                                  First off I'm new on here and to the world of Z Scale. I picked up a Markin Fun Set and I was hooked.
                                  I am making a small briefcase set up from scratch and I was wondering if anyone has any plans for a speed controler like the noch 87060. It looks to me like it is only a 9v battery, a dpdt switch, and a potentiometer. Am I missing something? I do not want to fry my new loco right off the bat.








                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                                  Z-scale: minimum siZe, MAXIMUM enjoyment!
                                  Yahoo! Groups Links





                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Jeff
                                  Using an HO or ** O ** power pack ?!? Jeff M SF Bay Area Z ... From: ddechamp71@yahoo.fr Sender: z_scale@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 14:00:37 To:
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Sep 7, 2012
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Using an HO or ** O ** power pack ?!?

                                    Jeff M
                                    SF Bay Area Z

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: ddechamp71@...
                                    Sender: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 14:00:37
                                    To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Reply-To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Home made speed controler

                                    Pulse power is no problem as long as peak voltage remains under our small Z motors' limitations. There begins to be some o'heating problems on our small motorZ when one uses pulse power coming from O or HO power packs, delivering crest voltages of 12V or more.. I've already fried 3 Faulhaber motors with this kind of stuff.
                                    Dom






                                    Ce message a été envoyé depuis un terminal BlackBerry de Bouygues Telecom

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: "Jeff" <sjbazman49@...>
                                    Sender: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 18:01:17
                                    To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Reply-To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Home made speed controler

                                    Wrong ! It will *not* "destroy" your motor! On coreless motors (MTL GP's, SD-40 & AZL GP-z and SD's only), it *may* cause *some* heating. On all of there other locos, it will not as they are Permanent Magnet motors (a.k.a. "Can" motors). The problem is most prevalent when the motor is stalled (or heavily loaded), not when running normally.

                                    Virtually *every* power pack out there is some form of pulsed power! Put an oscilloscope on them and see. Nary a one has pure DC ! (Motors do not run efficiently or well with below rated voltage (e.g. 1-2 volts) so Pulse Power was developed way back when and now, almost every power supply is . . . dah da da da dah . . . PWM! Millions of DCC powered locos out there.


                                    Jeff M
                                    SF Bay Area Z

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Lee Barry <z_scale2@...>
                                    Sender: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 09:03:34
                                    To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Reply-To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Home made speed controler

                                    Another word of caution, do not use any PULSE settings on any controller or "power pack". It will destroy an engines motor. I am not a victim thanks to some good friends on this site. I was gonna use my "sound and power" transformer I used with my N scale layout and was told I could but not to use the "pulse" switch. Its still in the box where it has been since 2006 when I sold out my N collection. Lee

                                    --- On Thu, 9/6/12, John C <jac1@...> wrote:


                                    From: John C <jac1@...>
                                    Subject: [Z_Scale] Home made speed controler
                                    To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Thursday, September 6, 2012, 6:46 AM



                                     



                                    First off I'm new on here and to the world of Z Scale. I picked up a Markin Fun Set and I was hooked.
                                    I am making a small briefcase set up from scratch and I was wondering if anyone has any plans for a speed controler like the noch 87060. It looks to me like it is only a 9v battery, a dpdt switch, and a potentiometer. Am I missing something? I do not want to fry my new loco right off the bat.








                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                    ------------------------------------

                                    Z-scale: minimum siZe, MAXIMUM enjoyment!
                                    Yahoo! Groups Links





                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                    ------------------------------------

                                    Z-scale: minimum siZe, MAXIMUM enjoyment!
                                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  • de Champeaux Dominique
                                    Yep. That was first my case before I purchased a power pack done for Z scale, from Oli Passmann in Germany. Dissatisfied with Marklin s and its too high
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Sep 7, 2012
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Yep. That was first my case before I purchased a power pack done for Z scale, from Oli Passmann in Germany. Dissatisfied with Marklin's and its too high starting voltage, I first went to a system made for HO, from a french crafstman. I fried 3 motors from some of my AZL locos, although I remained below an indicated 8V. I suspect its pulse power's peak voltage was nevertheless close to 12V, thus badly damaging my motors. I don't use it anymore. I'm only relying to Passmann's, and although my locos' motors growl at low voltage, I've not the least o'heating nor damage of any kind on my motors with it (and its low speed performance is really stunning..)..
                                       
                                      Dom
                                       
                                       
                                       


                                      --- En date de : Ven 7.9.12, Jeff <sjbazman49@...> a écrit :


                                      De: Jeff <sjbazman49@...>
                                      Objet: Re: [Z_Scale] Home made speed controler
                                      À: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                      Date: Vendredi 7 septembre 2012, 16h28



                                       



                                      Using an HO or ** O ** power pack ?!?

                                      Jeff M
                                      SF Bay Area Z



                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • viktor_kovacs
                                      Hi, Yes, I had some very good results with a 50Hz modulation. This is actually line voltage frequency and while it s audible, it can t fry anyting. For lower
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Sep 7, 2012
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Hi,

                                        Yes, I had some very good results with a 50Hz modulation.
                                        This is actually line voltage frequency and while it's
                                        audible, it can't fry anyting. For lower max. voltage
                                        locomotives (for example one with a 3V pager motor)
                                        a large filter capacitor could flat out the voltage
                                        by sacrificing slow speed crawling (the filter could
                                        be made hand switchable).

                                        I've also run z scale locomotives with an old piko H0
                                        power pack, because it's a linear controller. But a
                                        derailment could destoy some locos because while the
                                        voltage is low, the maximal current is still too high.

                                        For high output voltage pwm controllers, it is possible
                                        to drop the output volage with a diode chain. The diodes
                                        should be connected back to back in pairs and then
                                        serially into the output line, with each standard diode
                                        pair dropping about 0.7V. This way a higher rated
                                        pack could be used with Z scale locomotives, just make
                                        sure that it has good short circuit protection.

                                        However I would suggest getting a Z scale japanese pack
                                        because they are relatively cheap and contain all the
                                        mentioned functionality.

                                        best wishes: Viktor

                                        --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, de Champeaux Dominique <ddechamp71@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Yep. That was first my case before I purchased a power pack done for Z scale, from Oli Passmann in Germany. Dissatisfied with Marklin's and its too high starting voltage, I first went to a system made for HO, from a french crafstman. I fried 3 motors from some of my AZL locos, although I remained below an indicated 8V. I suspect its pulse power's peak voltage was nevertheless close to 12V, thus badly damaging my motors. I don't use it anymore. I'm only relying to Passmann's, and although my locos' motors growl at low voltage, I've not the least o'heating nor damage of any kind on my motors with it (and its low speed performance is really stunning..)..
                                        >  
                                        > Dom
                                        >  
                                        >  
                                        >  
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- En date de : Ven 7.9.12, Jeff <sjbazman49@...> a écrit :
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > De: Jeff <sjbazman49@...>
                                        > Objet: Re: [Z_Scale] Home made speed controler
                                        > À: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Date: Vendredi 7 septembre 2012, 16h28
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >  
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Using an HO or ** O ** power pack ?!?
                                        >
                                        > Jeff M
                                        > SF Bay Area Z
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                      • Alan Cox
                                        On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 02:16:28 -0000 ... The usual recommendation for coreless motors is to use 10KHz or higher and that is what the modern kit I ve seen in fact
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Sep 8, 2012
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                                          On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 02:16:28 -0000
                                          "viktor_kovacs" <viktor_kovacs@...> wrote:

                                          > Hi,
                                          >
                                          > Yes, I had some very good results with a 50Hz modulation.
                                          > This is actually line voltage frequency and while it's
                                          > audible, it can't fry anyting.

                                          The usual recommendation for coreless motors is to use 10KHz or higher
                                          and that is what the modern kit I've seen in fact does.

                                          Alan
                                        • Jeff
                                          Alan, which kit uses the ~10Khz ? All I have seen are only ~30 to ~150 Hz. Jeff M SF Bay Area Z ... From: Alan Cox Sender:
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Sep 8, 2012
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Alan, which kit uses the ~10Khz ? All I have seen are only ~30 to ~150 Hz.

                                            Jeff M
                                            SF Bay Area Z

                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: Alan Cox <alan@...>
                                            Sender: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                            Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2012 18:21:05
                                            To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Reply-To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                            Cc: <viktor_kovacs@...>
                                            Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: Home made speed controler

                                            On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 02:16:28 -0000
                                            "viktor_kovacs" <viktor_kovacs@...> wrote:

                                            > Hi,
                                            >
                                            > Yes, I had some very good results with a 50Hz modulation.
                                            > This is actually line voltage frequency and while it's
                                            > audible, it can't fry anyting.

                                            The usual recommendation for coreless motors is to use 10KHz or higher
                                            and that is what the modern kit I've seen in fact does.

                                            Alan


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                                            Z-scale: minimum siZe, MAXIMUM enjoyment!
                                            Yahoo! Groups Links
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