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Re: [Z_Scale] Why 1:220 ?

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  • Lee Barry
    I thought you were. Boy how disheartened you made me, ha ha. ... From: ztrack@aol.com Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Why 1:220 ? To:
    Message 1 of 22 , Sep 1, 2012
      I thought you were. Boy how disheartened you made me, ha ha.

      --- On Sat, 9/1/12, ztrack@... <ztrack@...> wrote:


      From: ztrack@... <ztrack@...>
      Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Why 1:220 ?
      To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Saturday, September 1, 2012, 6:53 PM


      I had heard that Marklin engineers looked at the smallest trains that was feasible to produce with the technology at the time. Their calculations came up with a track gauge of 6.5mm, which equated to 1:220. This was over 25% smaller than N scale which was still in it's infancy.

      Marklin had actually looked at producing N scale in 1968 but stopped
      production in lieu of going to Z scale. They had a few prototypes that showed off during that period.

      Another interesting note is the motors Marklin uses. These originated as slot car motors. They were readily available at that time.

      Somewhere in my notes. I have the name of the chief engineer who developed Z. His is the true father of Z scale.

      Rob

      Ztrack Magazine Ltd.
      Distributor American Z Line
      Authorized MTL, Full Throttle, Tenshodo
      and Rokuhan dealer.
      www.ztrack.com
      www.ztrackcenter.com
      www.ztrackresale.com
      www.rokuhan-store.com
      6142 Northcliff Blvd
      Dublin OH 43016
      (614) 764-1703









      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Kevin Brady
      Hi all, True! In late 60 s and early 70 s I and several friends had HO size slot cars(Aurora)?Which as one can imagine had tiny motors,which we use to modify
      Message 2 of 22 , Sep 1, 2012
        Hi all,
        True! In late 60's and early 70's I and several friends had HO size
        slot cars(Aurora)?Which as one can imagine had tiny motors,which we use to
        modify for -speed- :-) So I think that was the reason for M to go about
        Z,.....

        Kev

        On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 2:53 PM, <ztrack@...> wrote:

        > **
        >
        >
        > I had heard that Marklin engineers looked at the smallest trains that was
        > feasible to produce with the technology at the time. Their calculations
        > came
        > up with a track gauge of 6.5mm, which equated to 1:220. This was over 25%
        > smaller than N scale which was still in it's infancy.
        >
        > Marklin had actually looked at producing N scale in 1968 but stopped
        > production in lieu of going to Z scale. They had a few prototypes that
        > showed off
        > during that period.
        >
        > Another interesting note is the motors Marklin uses. These originated as
        > slot car motors. They were readily available at that time.
        >
        > Somewhere in my notes. I have the name of the chief engineer who developed
        > Z. His is the true father of Z scale.
        >
        > Rob
        >
        > Ztrack Magazine Ltd.
        > Distributor American Z Line
        > Authorized MTL, Full Throttle, Tenshodo
        > and Rokuhan dealer.
        > www.ztrack.com
        > www.ztrackcenter.com
        > www.ztrackresale.com
        > www.rokuhan-store.com
        > 6142 Northcliff Blvd
        > Dublin OH 43016
        > (614) 764-1703
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >



        --
        Dr. Dirt's Weathering Service


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Kevin Brady
        Hi all, see:http://www.guidetozscale.com/html/history_of_z-scale.html Best,Kev ... -- Dr. Dirt s Weathering Service [Non-text portions of this message have
        Message 3 of 22 , Sep 1, 2012
          Hi all,

          see:http://www.guidetozscale.com/html/history_of_z-scale.html

          Best,Kev

          On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 2:53 PM, <ztrack@...> wrote:

          > **
          >
          >
          > I had heard that Marklin engineers looked at the smallest trains that was
          > feasible to produce with the technology at the time. Their calculations
          > came
          > up with a track gauge of 6.5mm, which equated to 1:220. This was over 25%
          > smaller than N scale which was still in it's infancy.
          >
          > Marklin had actually looked at producing N scale in 1968 but stopped
          > production in lieu of going to Z scale. They had a few prototypes that
          > showed off
          > during that period.
          >
          > Another interesting note is the motors Marklin uses. These originated as
          > slot car motors. They were readily available at that time.
          >
          > Somewhere in my notes. I have the name of the chief engineer who developed
          > Z. His is the true father of Z scale.
          >
          > Rob
          >
          > Ztrack Magazine Ltd.
          > Distributor American Z Line
          > Authorized MTL, Full Throttle, Tenshodo
          > and Rokuhan dealer.
          > www.ztrack.com
          > www.ztrackcenter.com
          > www.ztrackresale.com
          > www.rokuhan-store.com
          > 6142 Northcliff Blvd
          > Dublin OH 43016
          > (614) 764-1703
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >



          --
          Dr. Dirt's Weathering Service


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Lee Barry
          thanks for the info Kevin ... From: Kevin Brady Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Why 1:220 ? To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, September 1,
          Message 4 of 22 , Sep 1, 2012
            thanks for the info Kevin

            --- On Sat, 9/1/12, Kevin Brady <kbvrod@...> wrote:


            From: Kevin Brady <kbvrod@...>
            Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Why 1:220 ?
            To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Saturday, September 1, 2012, 7:07 PM


            Hi all,

            see:http://www.guidetozscale.com/html/history_of_z-scale.html

            Best,Kev
          • ztrack@aol.com
            Thanks for posting the link! I was looking for that... Rob Ztrack Magazine Ltd. Distributor American Z Line Authorized MTL, Full Throttle, Tenshodo and Rokuhan
            Message 5 of 22 , Sep 1, 2012
              Thanks for posting the link! I was looking for that...

              Rob



              Ztrack Magazine Ltd.
              Distributor American Z Line
              Authorized MTL, Full Throttle, Tenshodo
              and Rokuhan dealer.
              www.ztrack.com
              www.ztrackcenter.com
              www.ztrackresale.com
              www.rokuhan-store.com
              6142 Northcliff Blvd
              Dublin OH 43016
              (614) 764-1703

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Kevin Brady
              Hi Lee,all, Your most welcome! All the best,Kevin. ... -- Dr. Dirt s Weathering Service [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              Message 6 of 22 , Sep 1, 2012
                Hi Lee,all,
                Your most welcome!
                All the best,Kevin.

                On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 3:14 PM, Lee Barry <z_scale2@...> wrote:

                > **
                >
                >
                > thanks for the info Kevin
                >
                > --- On Sat, 9/1/12, Kevin Brady <kbvrod@...> wrote:
                >
                > From: Kevin Brady <kbvrod@...>
                >
                > Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Why 1:220 ?
                > To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                > Date: Saturday, September 1, 2012, 7:07 PM
                >
                >
                > Hi all,
                >
                > see:http://www.guidetozscale.com/html/history_of_z-scale.html
                >
                > Best,Kev
                >
                >
                >



                --
                Dr. Dirt's Weathering Service


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Loren Snyder
                Reynard, Some good and interesting info has been posted and I think we are all enjoying catching up on our Z history. We certainly have a wealth of product
                Message 7 of 22 , Sep 1, 2012
                  Reynard,

                  Some good and interesting info has been posted and I think we are all
                  enjoying catching up on our Z history.

                  We certainly have a wealth of product lines compared to the early days of Z.

                  A great time to be modeling,

                  Loren




                  -------Original Message-------

                  From: Reynard Wellman
                  Date: 9/1/2012 10:56:50 AM
                  To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Why 1:220 ?

                  Hi Loren,
                  I also suspect that it had something to do with the
                  track gauge of exactly 6.5 mm that Marklin came up with
                  and the diameter of the available motors that would
                  work within that range.

                  We Electro/Mechanical folks have to design around numbers
                  for solids. (Organics are another matter entirely, just add water
                  and fertilizers ;>)

                  Reynard
                  http://www.micronart.com



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Alan Cox
                  On Sat, 1 Sep 2012 14:53:09 -0400 (EDT) ... On the business side it s been said in several places they did it because they wanted their own scale or system
                  Message 8 of 22 , Sep 1, 2012
                    On Sat, 1 Sep 2012 14:53:09 -0400 (EDT)
                    ztrack@... wrote:

                    > I had heard that Marklin engineers looked at the smallest trains that was
                    > feasible to produce with the technology at the time. Their calculations came
                    > up with a track gauge of 6.5mm, which equated to 1:220. This was over 25%
                    > smaller than N scale which was still in it's infancy.

                    On the business side it's been said in several places they did it because
                    they wanted their "own" scale or system so they could get more money out
                    of it than joining the standards. Just as they've always done with their
                    weird AC HO control systems.

                    Alan
                  • Alan Cox
                    ... But not always sane ones. CD capacity came from the length of a particular classical piece. T scale model trains come from someone looking at the top of
                    Message 9 of 22 , Sep 1, 2012
                      > We Electro/Mechanical folks have to design around numbers
                      > for solids. (Organics are another matter entirely, just add water
                      > and fertilizers ;>)

                      But not always sane ones. CD capacity came from the length of a
                      particular classical piece. T scale model trains come from someone
                      looking at the top of their laptop and thinking I want my trainset to fit
                      that space.
                    • Kevin Brady
                      Hi Alan,all, Read Prey by Michael Crichton. That might help or hurt. :-) Best,Kev ... -- Dr. Dirt s Weathering Service [Non-text portions of this message
                      Message 10 of 22 , Sep 1, 2012
                        Hi Alan,all,
                        Read 'Prey" by Michael Crichton.

                        That might help or hurt. :-)

                        Best,Kev

                        On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 4:17 PM, Alan Cox <alan@...> wrote:

                        > **
                        >
                        >
                        > > We Electro/Mechanical folks have to design around numbers
                        > > for solids. (Organics are another matter entirely, just add water
                        > > and fertilizers ;>)
                        >
                        > But not always sane ones. CD capacity came from the length of a
                        > particular classical piece. T scale model trains come from someone
                        > looking at the top of their laptop and thinking I want my trainset to fit
                        > that space.
                        >
                        >
                        >



                        --
                        Dr. Dirt's Weathering Service


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Larry
                        Here is a rough translation taken from the Koll s Intro portion of the book on Maerklin Z scale. Please excuse all the errors. I did say rough Quote: From the
                        Message 11 of 22 , Sep 1, 2012
                          Here is a rough translation taken from the Koll's Intro portion of the
                          book on Maerklin Z scale.

                          Please excuse all the errors. I did say rough

                          Quote:

                          From the outset there were toy railways in different sizes. Also the
                          tracks had different mass, so that the locomotives and car manufacturer
                          on the tracks of the other one could not drive. That changed only, after
                          Maerklin had standardized the track widths and most offerers had adapted.

                          Already 1895 offered "l" (45 mm) to Maerklin apart from the then most
                          common track width the larger systems "2" (51 mm) and "3"(72 mm), which
                          were manufactured however in very small numbers of items after
                          vorbestellung and therefore today are extremely rare. The track width
                          "0" (32 mm), likewise already 1895 in the program, could be offered
                          clearly more cheaply. Still smaller courses were offered to 1902 by the
                          Nuernberger company Schoenner: "00" (30 mm) and "000" (23 mm). There
                          were however in addition no switches. 1912 brought then a table course,
                          the "Liliput railway" (23 mm) to Maerklin, which was offered to 1932.
                          Also it did not possess switches, which did not promote its success. The
                          production of smaller courses made problems, because one could make the
                          drive smaller at that time not yet at will.1923 appeared then the first
                          toy course in the track width 16.5 mm, of Bing in Nuernberg manufactured
                          for the Englishman W. J. Bassett Bassett-Lowke. 1925 manufactured the
                          French company JEP their "Mignon trains" with same track width. Only
                          1935, ten years later, came the companies Trix and Maerklin nearly at
                          the same time with its track width 00 (16.5 mm. Yardstick 1:87). Saving
                          in material and thus a small price, as well as space saving, were the
                          motives for the introduction on the market. The toy courses had not
                          formed themselves as table courses angepriesen at that time and yet as
                          model courses. This changed however in the run the time, when one was
                          able to manufacture ever nature-more faithful models.

                          The stationary model railway facility had become now the worthwhile goal
                          of the railway friends, but it caused a very large space requirement,
                          wanted one also only to some extent realistic railway facilities to
                          develop. Also after that 2. World war was not missing it at attempts to
                          make the toy railway smaller further. Thus the "Mignon" railway from
                          1947 to 1950 (track width 10 mm became. Yardstick 1:150) offered,
                          obviously their time too far ahead. 1950 saw many model railway friends
                          in the track width "TT" (12 mm, yardstick 1:120) the chance to carry out
                          a realistic model railway facility. The company Rokal developed within a
                          short time a rich model course program, which however 1971 was stopped.
                          In the GDR the track width "TT" came 1958 on the market and could create
                          itself a large friend circle, which is still very active also today.

                          1959 appeared Trix with unpowered soil runners "Minitrix" on a scale
                          1:180. 1961 came Arnold with the electrical "Arnold Rapido" (9 mm.
                          Yardstick 1:200), which was improved from year to year and then the
                          yardstick 1:160, track width "N" received. 1964 brought also the company
                          Piko a course in track width "N" and Minitrix electric appeared now with
                          track system.

                          Meat man came 1968 first with a truck course and one year later also
                          with tracks into track width "N". In this yardstick now a large railway
                          facility at small place could be realized very well. To today continuous
                          success of the track width "N" appeared fast and led also in Goeppingen,
                          with Maerklin to activities.

                          one began 1962 with the development of a course in track width "N",
                          which was final with production stage two years later. One was not
                          convinced however of an economic success and began with the development
                          of a still smaller model railway. Investigations on the dependence of
                          the manufacturing costs on the yardstick had resulted in that a
                          continuous lowering of the costs with the reduction took place. If one
                          made smaller however too strongly, the costs rose again dramatically.
                          Maerklin selected a yardstick, which lay still reliably in the range of
                          economy: 1:220 (track width 6.5 mm).

                          one cleared first the model course municipality in the magazine Miba for
                          1968 up over the fact that Maerklin had the trace "N" in the drawer, but
                          is evenly not convinced of this track width. That worked something
                          disconcerting, where itself nevertheless straight only meat man had
                          decided to mix together with "N" could not however success in the long
                          run not stop.

                          The considerations assumed with Maerklin

                          1. should be obtained during the introduction of a new track width a
                          maximum space gain. Here the yardstick 1:220 of the track width "Z"
                          offers clear advantages in relation to the yardstick 1:160 of the track
                          width "N".

                          2. It would be more economical to create its own standard to be than an
                          offerer under many with the track width "N".

                          3. The however position with the superlativ "smallest electric train of
                          the world" would offer large advantages in press and advertisement.

                          4. It could not be correct for a market leader with large tradition to
                          attach itself to a trend but one would have to make a trend.

                          5. One would select children as a Kem target group not, but adults.

                          6. The "mini club" should be positioned as gift.

                          7. One the women strengthened to respond, because Mrs. small, nice
                          things to like.

                          Unquote.


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • dks2855
                          And the last of the floppy discs, the 3-1/2 inch, was designed to fit into a standard shirt pocket. A few others: Barometric pressure in inches, temperature in
                          Message 12 of 22 , Sep 1, 2012
                            And the last of the floppy discs, the 3-1/2 inch, was designed to fit into a standard shirt pocket.

                            A few others:
                            Barometric pressure in inches, temperature in Fahrenheit degrees, AM and FM broadcast bands, all were totally arbitrary--someone just made a few tick marks on a stick, or used whatever hardware was at hand to start sending and receiving radio transmissions with no regard for the frequency.

                            Regards,
                            David

                            --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Alan Cox <alan@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > We Electro/Mechanical folks have to design around numbers
                            > > for solids. (Organics are another matter entirely, just add water
                            > > and fertilizers ;>)
                            >
                            > But not always sane ones. CD capacity came from the length of a
                            > particular classical piece. T scale model trains come from someone
                            > looking at the top of their laptop and thinking I want my trainset to fit
                            > that space.
                            >
                          • Uwe Liermann
                            Hello Larry, thank you for your translation... ... Meat man means the modeltrain manufacturer Fleischmann :
                            Message 13 of 22 , Sep 2, 2012
                              Hello Larry,

                              thank you for your translation...

                              > Please excuse all the errors. I did say rough

                              that's ok with me, until I came to this line:

                              > Meat man came 1968 first with a truck course...

                              "Meat man" means the modeltrain manufacturer "Fleischmann":

                              http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleischmann_%28Unternehmen%29

                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleischmann_%28model_railroads%29

                              ...but I have to admit that "Meat man" is the direct translation for the
                              pure words. I don't know which translation software you used, since I
                              got the correct result ("Fleischmann" = "Fleischmann") in Google.


                              An interesting detail for Fleischmann can be found in the German
                              Wikipedia text. Fleischmann also had a slotcar system from 1967 until
                              1989, which is stated to be better then the market leader Carrera:

                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrera_%28slot_car_brand%29

                              and that the model quality from Fleischmann slotcars were better then
                              all other brands, except the Maerklin Sprint system.

                              GreetingZ

                              Uwe
                            • mark2playz
                              All, Thanks for a lot of interesting info. I was hoping for an interesting story: a rational fraction of some obsure european scale (like O vs. HO ) or a
                              Message 14 of 22 , Sep 4, 2012
                                All,
                                Thanks for a lot of interesting info. I was hoping for an "interesting" story: a rational fraction of some obsure european scale (like "O" vs. "HO") or a story like David's that rolling stock had to fit in the pocket.

                                Mark

                                --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "dks2855" <david@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > And the last of the floppy discs, the 3-1/2 inch, was designed to fit into a standard shirt pocket.
                                >
                                > A few others:
                                > Barometric pressure in inches, temperature in Fahrenheit degrees, AM and FM broadcast bands, all were totally arbitrary--someone just made a few tick marks on a stick, or used whatever hardware was at hand to start sending and receiving radio transmissions with no regard for the frequency.
                                >
                                > Regards,
                                > David
                                >
                                > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Alan Cox <alan@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > > We Electro/Mechanical folks have to design around numbers
                                > > > for solids. (Organics are another matter entirely, just add water
                                > > > and fertilizers ;>)
                                > >
                                > > But not always sane ones. CD capacity came from the length of a
                                > > particular classical piece. T scale model trains come from someone
                                > > looking at the top of their laptop and thinking I want my trainset to fit
                                > > that space.
                                > >
                                >
                              • Rick Saviano
                                Beethoven s 9th, to be precise; Mrs. Sony didn t want to have to switch CDs: Sony had initially preferred a smaller diameter, but soon after the beginning of
                                Message 15 of 22 , Sep 4, 2012
                                  Beethoven's 9th, to be precise; "Mrs. Sony" didn't want to have to
                                  switch CDs:

                                  Sony had initially preferred a smaller diameter, but soon after the
                                  beginning of the collaboration started to argue vehemently for a
                                  diameter of 120mm. Sony’s argument was simple and compelling: to
                                  maximize the consumer appear of a switch to the new technology, any
                                  major piece of music needed to fit on a single CD…Beethoven’s Ninth
                                  Symphony was quickly identified as the point of reference — according to
                                  some accounts, it was the favorite piece of Sony vice-president Norio
                                  Ohga’s wife. And thorough research identified the 1951 recording by the
                                  orchestra of the Bayreuther Festspiele under Wilhelm Furtwängler, at
                                  seventy-four minutes, as the slowest performance of the Ninth Symphony
                                  on record. And so, according to the official history, Sony and Philips
                                  top executives agreed in their May 1980 meeting that “a diameter of 12
                                  centimeters was required for this playing time.”


                                  http://www.neatorama.com/2011/04/03/what-determined-the-length-of-an-audio-cd/

                                  - Rick Saviano



                                  On 9/4/2012 9:48 AM, mark2playz wrote:
                                  > But not always sane ones. CD capacity came from the length of a
                                  > particular classical piece.
                                • FT. Dewey
                                  Beethoven s 9th, to be precise; Mrs. Sony didn t want to have to switch CDs: Good thing it wasn t Wagner s Ring Cycle !!
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Sep 5, 2012
                                    "Beethoven's 9th, to be precise; "Mrs. Sony" didn't want to have to
                                    switch CDs:"

                                    Good thing it wasn't Wagner's Ring Cycle !!
                                                                                                                                 DEWEY

                                     
                                    Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train.
                                    o o o o o o o . . . ______________________________
                                    o _____ || |
                                    .][__n_n_|DD[ ====_____ | |
                                    >(________|__|_[_________]_|____________________________|
                                    _/oo OOOOO oo` ooo ooo 'o!o!o o!o!o`
                                    -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+


                                    ________________________________
                                    From: Rick Saviano <saviano@...>
                                    To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Tuesday, September 4, 2012 7:49 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: Why 1:220 ?

                                    Beethoven's 9th, to be precise; "Mrs. Sony" didn't want to have to
                                    switch CDs:

                                    Sony had initially preferred a smaller diameter, but soon after the
                                    beginning of the collaboration started to argue vehemently for a
                                    diameter of 120mm. Sony’s argument was simple and compelling: to
                                    maximize the consumer appear of a switch to the new technology, any
                                    major piece of music needed to fit on a single CD…Beethoven’s Ninth
                                    Symphony was quickly identified as the point of reference — according to
                                    some accounts, it was the favorite piece of Sony vice-president Norio
                                    Ohga’s wife. And thorough research identified the 1951 recording by the
                                    orchestra of the Bayreuther Festspiele under Wilhelm Furtwängler, at
                                    seventy-four minutes, as the slowest performance of the Ninth Symphony
                                    on record. And so, according to the official history, Sony and Philips
                                    top executives agreed in their May 1980 meeting that “a diameter of 12
                                    centimeters was required for this playing time.”


                                    http://www.neatorama.com/2011/04/03/what-determined-the-length-of-an-audio-cd/

                                    - Rick Saviano



                                    On 9/4/2012 9:48 AM, mark2playz wrote:
                                    > But not always sane ones. CD capacity came from the length of a
                                    > particular classical piece.



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