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Module Wiring, bus wire size (etc.)

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  • sj_baz_man
    OK, I ll fire the first salvo. Note the etc. so you guys can get ay off topic, as usual. Z-Bend Track standards call for 18 gauge (o.8mm^2) is called for.
    Message 1 of 6 , Jul 4, 2012
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      OK, I'll fire the first salvo. Note the 'etc.' so you guys can get ay off topic, as usual.

      Z-Bend Track standards call for 18 gauge (o.8mm^2) is called for. This was primarily for forward looking operations, like mega-module layouts and primariy DCC which, at the time, were 5 and 10 Amp systems.

      18 gauge wire is capable of carrying apprx 14 Amps. HOWEVER, there are many, many factors. DC, or high frequencys "AC" used in DCC. How long of a run (1 foot or 100's). Number of connectors, etc. Placing an 18 gauge wire across a car battery will take ~1-5 seconds before it 'fuses' (seperates at it's weakest point). This is radical but reinforces the 'design for the wekest link'. Many of the modules I see use #26 solid twisted pairs stripped from Ethernet cable. Thats a no-no as the solid wire is highly fragile (does NOT survive flexing!) and the much smaller wire *severely* limits current in case of a short - a BIG no-no wioth DCC operations where the Booster is designed to electronically shut down from excessive current. Other modules use clear 'speaker wire' often only #22. Still technically too small.

      http://www.rbeelectronics.com/wtable.htm

      Here's a techie chart to show various factors:
      http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

      Here's a good derating site:
      http://www.te.com/documentation/whitepapers/pdf/Specifying_Current_for_The_Real_World.pdf

      Jeff
      SF Bay Area Z
    • Loren Snyder
      Whoa Jeff, You really took me seriously......I was only kidding about starting a discussion on wiring. However, your info is pertinent and valuable for those
      Message 2 of 6 , Jul 4, 2012
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        Whoa Jeff,

        You really took me seriously......I was only kidding about starting a
        discussion on wiring. However, your info is pertinent and valuable for
        those who might be wondering about such an issue.

        Thanks again to you, Mickie, Matt, Hien, and Robert for coming up to Medford
        and adding a lot to our Z scale time.
        I think some of the N scale folks are just jealous, that's all.

        Loren




        -------Original Message-------

        From: sj_baz_man
        Date: 7/4/2012 11:24:57 AM
        To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [Z_Scale] Module Wiring, bus wire size (etc.)

        OK, I'll fire the first salvo. Note the 'etc.' so you guys can get ay off
        topic, as usual.

        Z-Bend Track standards call for 18 gauge (o.8mm^2) is called for. This was
        primarily for forward looking operations, like mega-module layouts and
        primariy DCC which, at the time, were 5 and 10 Amp systems.

        18 gauge wire is capable of carrying apprx 14 Amps. HOWEVER, there are many,
        many factors. DC, or high frequencys "AC" used in DCC. How long of a run
        (1 foot or 100's). Number of connectors, etc. Placing an 18 gauge wire
        across a car battery will take ~1-5 seconds before it 'fuses' (seperates at
        it's weakest point). This is radical but reinforces the 'design for the
        wekest link'. Many of the modules I see use #26 solid twisted pairs
        stripped from Ethernet cable. Thats a no-no as the solid wire is highly
        fragile (does NOT survive flexing!) and the much smaller wire *severely*
        limits current in case of a short - a BIG no-no wioth DCC operations where
        the Booster is designed to electronically shut down from excessive current.
        Other modules use clear 'speaker wire' often only #22. Still technically
        too small.

        http://www.rbeelectronics.com/wtable.htm

        Here's a techie chart to show various factors:
        http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

        Here's a good derating site:
        http://www.te
        com/documentation/whitepapers/pdf/Specifying_Current_for_The_Real_World.pdf

        Jeff
        SF Bay Area Z




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • David Mummery
        Hey Jeff, So then your saying the 14 ga stranded I m using for buss is good? Dave Mummery http://27squaresof220ing.blogspot.com/
        Message 3 of 6 , Jul 4, 2012
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          Hey Jeff,

          So then your saying the 14 ga stranded I'm using for buss is good?

          Dave Mummery

          http://27squaresof220ing.blogspot.com/
          http://tractionmadness.blogspot.com/

          Sent from my U.S. Cellular BlackBerry® smartphone

          -----Original Message-----
          From: sj_baz_man <sjbazman49@...>
          Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 18:24:54
          To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
          Subject: [Z_Scale] Module Wiring, bus wire size (etc.)

           



          OK, I'll fire the first salvo. Note the 'etc.' so you guys can get ay off topic, as usual.

          Z-Bend Track standards call for 18 gauge (o.8mm^2) is called for. This was primarily for forward looking operations, like mega-module layouts and primariy DCC which, at the time, were 5 and 10 Amp systems.

          18 gauge wire is capable of carrying apprx 14 Amps. HOWEVER, there are many, many factors. DC, or high frequencys "AC" used in DCC. How long of a run (1 foot or 100's). Number of connectors, etc. Placing an 18 gauge wire across a car battery will take ~1-5 seconds before it 'fuses' (seperates at it's weakest point). This is radical but reinforces the 'design for the wekest link'. Many of the modules I see use #26 solid twisted pairs stripped from Ethernet cable. Thats a no-no as the solid wire is highly fragile (does NOT survive flexing!) and the much smaller wire *severely* limits current in case of a short - a BIG no-no wioth DCC operations where the Booster is designed to electronically shut down from excessive current. Other modules use clear 'speaker wire' often only #22. Still technically too small.

          http://www.rbeelectronics.com/wtable.htm

          Here's a techie chart to show various factors:
          http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

          Here's a good derating site:
          http://www.te.com/documentation/whitepapers/pdf/Specifying_Current_for_The_Real_World.pdf

          Jeff
          SF Bay Area Z
        • sj_baz_man
          Lets look at the real world. MTL GP s and AZL locos draw only ~o.05 Amps. 10 of them draw only ~o.5 Amps. So, they ll all run on anything used to wire. But,
          Message 4 of 6 , Jul 4, 2012
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            Lets look at the real world. MTL GP's and AZL locos draw only ~o.05 Amps. 10 of them draw only ~o.5 Amps. So, they'll all run on anything used to wire. But, lets look at a couple of things. MTL's F7's draw o.1-o.5 Amps - each - as do many Märklin permanent magnet motors, especially with poor lube, well used commutators, worn brushes, etc. NOW, 10 of these say o.5 Amps is now up to 5 Amps. Even with one loco or even a metal wheel set shorting in a turnout will be limited to the wiring (and track rail) resistance.

            So wire your modules correctly using larger 18 gauge wires and feeders every few feet to the rails (NOTE: you do not have to solder rail joiners - that is more for running reliably [no dead track] rather than continuous track power). Rail resistance is higher than wire (see tables like:

            http://www.wiringfordcc.com/trakwire.htm (links in red on right)

            http://www.wiringfordcc.com/track_2.htm#a26 (see section links on right)

            Jeff
            SF Bay Area Z



            --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "sj_baz_man" <sjbazman49@...> wrote:
            >
            > OK, I'll fire the first salvo. Note the 'etc.' so you guys can get ay off topic, as usual.
            >
            > Z-Bend Track standards call for 18 gauge (o.8mm^2) is called for. This was primarily for forward looking operations, like mega-module layouts and primariy DCC which, at the time, were 5 and 10 Amp systems.
            >
            > 18 gauge wire is capable of carrying apprx 14 Amps. HOWEVER, there are many, many factors. DC, or high frequencys "AC" used in DCC. How long of a run (1 foot or 100's). Number of connectors, etc. Placing an 18 gauge wire across a car battery will take ~1-5 seconds before it 'fuses' (seperates at it's weakest point). This is radical but reinforces the 'design for the wekest link'. Many of the modules I see use #26 solid twisted pairs stripped from Ethernet cable. Thats a no-no as the solid wire is highly fragile (does NOT survive flexing!) and the much smaller wire *severely* limits current in case of a short - a BIG no-no wioth DCC operations where the Booster is designed to electronically shut down from excessive current. Other modules use clear 'speaker wire' often only #22. Still technically too small.
            >
            > http://www.rbeelectronics.com/wtable.htm
            >
            > Here's a techie chart to show various factors:
            > http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm
            >
            > Here's a good derating site:
            > http://www.te.com/documentation/whitepapers/pdf/Specifying_Current_for_The_Real_World.pdf
            >
            > Jeff
            > SF Bay Area Z
            >
          • sj_baz_man
            Dave, can I tap into that room feeder ? :) Actually, since we run a 5 Amp DCC, I have 14 gauge for a few feet to the Electronic circuit breakers. After that,
            Message 5 of 6 , Jul 4, 2012
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              Dave, can I tap into that room feeder ? :)

              Actually, since we run a 5 Amp DCC, I have 14 gauge for a few feet to the Electronic circuit breakers. After that, it is 18 gauge from one end of the module to the other and the Z-Bend Track (ZBT) cables, 18" long. 22 gauge to the local track feeders.

              Module interconnects use 3 pins for each single 18 gauge wire, per ZBT wiring practices.


              --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "David Mummery " <d_mummery@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hey Jeff,
              >
              > So then your saying the 14 ga stranded I'm using for buss is good?
              >
              > Dave Mummery
              >
              > http://27squaresof220ing.blogspot.com/
              > http://tractionmadness.blogspot.com/
              >
              > Sent from my U.S. Cellular BlackBerry® smartphone
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: sj_baz_man <sjbazman49@...>
              > Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 18:24:54
              > To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
              > Subject: [Z_Scale] Module Wiring, bus wire size (etc.)
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              > OK, I'll fire the first salvo. Note the 'etc.' so you guys can get ay off topic, as usual.
              >
              > Z-Bend Track standards call for 18 gauge (o.8mm^2) is called for. This was primarily for forward looking operations, like mega-module layouts and primariy DCC which, at the time, were 5 and 10 Amp systems.
              >
              > 18 gauge wire is capable of carrying apprx 14 Amps. HOWEVER, there are many, many factors. DC, or high frequencys "AC" used in DCC. How long of a run (1 foot or 100's). Number of connectors, etc. Placing an 18 gauge wire across a car battery will take ~1-5 seconds before it 'fuses' (seperates at it's weakest point). This is radical but reinforces the 'design for the wekest link'. Many of the modules I see use #26 solid twisted pairs stripped from Ethernet cable. Thats a no-no as the solid wire is highly fragile (does NOT survive flexing!) and the much smaller wire *severely* limits current in case of a short - a BIG no-no wioth DCC operations where the Booster is designed to electronically shut down from excessive current. Other modules use clear 'speaker wire' often only #22. Still technically too small.
              >
              > http://www.rbeelectronics.com/wtable.htm
              >
              > Here's a techie chart to show various factors:
              > http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm
              >
              > Here's a good derating site:
              > http://www.te.com/documentation/whitepapers/pdf/Specifying_Current_for_The_Real_World.pdf
              >
              > Jeff
              > SF Bay Area Z
              >
            • David Mummery
              Hey Jeff and Gang Jeff, step right up and plug in, LOL! 2 reasons I use 14 gau stranded; its what I have a monster spool of and a little over kill in DCC never
              Message 6 of 6 , Jul 5, 2012
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                Hey Jeff and Gang

                Jeff, step right up and plug in, LOL!
                2 reasons I use 14 gau stranded; its what I have a monster spool of and a little over kill in DCC never hurt anything, LOL.
                Hope every one had a safe and fun 4th!
                Dave


                Dave Mummery

                http://27squaresof220ing.blogspot.com/
                http://tractionmadness.blogspot.com/

                Sent from my U.S. Cellular BlackBerry® smartphone

                -----Original Message-----
                From: sj_baz_man <sjbazman49@...>
                Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 19:05:42
                To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: Module Wiring, bus wire size (etc.)

                 



                Dave, can I tap into that room feeder ? :)

                Actually, since we run a 5 Amp DCC, I have 14 gauge for a few feet to the Electronic circuit breakers. After that, it is 18 gauge from one end of the module to the other and the Z-Bend Track (ZBT) cables, 18" long. 22 gauge to the local track feeders.

                Module interconnects use 3 pins for each single 18 gauge wire, per ZBT wiring practices.

                --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com <mailto:z_scale%40yahoogroups.com> , "David Mummery " <d_mummery@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hey Jeff,
                >
                > So then your saying the 14 ga stranded I'm using for buss is good?
                >
                > Dave Mummery
                >
                > http://27squaresof220ing.blogspot.com/
                > http://tractionmadness.blogspot.com/
                >
                > Sent from my U.S. Cellular BlackBerry® smartphone
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: sj_baz_man <sjbazman49@...>
                > Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 18:24:54
                > To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com <mailto:z_scale%40yahoogroups.com> >
                > Subject: [Z_Scale] Module Wiring, bus wire size (etc.)
                >
                >  
                >
                >
                >
                > OK, I'll fire the first salvo. Note the 'etc.' so you guys can get ay off topic, as usual.
                >
                > Z-Bend Track standards call for 18 gauge (o.8mm^2) is called for. This was primarily for forward looking operations, like mega-module layouts and primariy DCC which, at the time, were 5 and 10 Amp systems.
                >
                > 18 gauge wire is capable of carrying apprx 14 Amps. HOWEVER, there are many, many factors. DC, or high frequencys "AC" used in DCC. How long of a run (1 foot or 100's). Number of connectors, etc. Placing an 18 gauge wire across a car battery will take ~1-5 seconds before it 'fuses' (seperates at it's weakest point). This is radical but reinforces the 'design for the wekest link'. Many of the modules I see use #26 solid twisted pairs stripped from Ethernet cable. Thats a no-no as the solid wire is highly fragile (does NOT survive flexing!) and the much smaller wire *severely* limits current in case of a short - a BIG no-no wioth DCC operations where the Booster is designed to electronically shut down from excessive current. Other modules use clear 'speaker wire' often only #22. Still technically too small.
                >
                > http://www.rbeelectronics.com/wtable.htm
                >
                > Here's a techie chart to show various factors:
                > http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm
                >
                > Here's a good derating site:
                > http://www.te.com/documentation/whitepapers/pdf/Specifying_Current_for_The_Real_World.pdf
                >
                > Jeff
                > SF Bay Area Z
                >
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