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New Z Scale structure.

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  • downtowndeco@montana.com
    To those of you who get ZTracks magazine, please check out our ad. It shows what will be our first Z Scale structure. Those who do not get the magazine but
    Message 1 of 30 , Oct 30, 2001
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      To those of you who get ZTracks magazine, please check out our ad. It
      shows what will be our first Z Scale structure. Those who do not get
      the magazine but would like flyer should drop me a note. Thanks,

      Randy Pepprock
      Downtown Deco
      downtowndeco@...
    • Scott A. Whitmire
      Even though that s a photo of the HO scale bulding, it s awesome. It would look great on a corner with an F-7 rolling by. It would look even better on the same
      Message 2 of 30 , Oct 30, 2001
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        Even though that's a photo of the HO scale bulding, it's awesome.

        It would look great on a corner with an F-7 rolling by. It would look
        even better on the same corner with consist of four C44-9Ws pulling
        a hundred or so loaded lumber cars :-)

        (Ugh, just realized that four C44-9Ws is getting into used car
        territory).

        At 10/30/01 06:19 PM, you wrote:
        >To those of you who get ZTracks magazine, please check out our ad. It
        >shows what will be our first Z Scale structure. Those who do not get
        >the magazine but would like flyer should drop me a note. Thanks,
        >
        >Randy Pepprock
        >Downtown Deco
        >downtowndeco@...
        >
        >
        >
        >"Z" WARNING! HANDLE WITH CARE! Highly addictive in Small DoseZ!
        >
        >
        >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

        Scott Whitmire
      • ted_lamar@peoplesoft.com
        THanks, Randy. I just subscribed to Ztrack last week....Will the add run through a few issues? Thanks, Ted LaMar 1443 Perez Drive Pacifica, CA 94044-4217
        Message 3 of 30 , Oct 31, 2001
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          THanks, Randy.

          I just subscribed to Ztrack last week....Will the add run through a few
          issues?

          Thanks,

          Ted LaMar
          1443 Perez Drive
          Pacifica, CA 94044-4217
          (Address in case you send them out snail mail)



          downtowndeco@m
          ontana.com To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
          cc:
          10/30/2001 Subject: [z_scale] New Z Scale structure.
          06:19 PM
          Please respond
          to z_scale






          To those of you who get ZTracks magazine, please check out our ad. It
          shows what will be our first Z Scale structure. Those who do not get
          the magazine but would like flyer should drop me a note. Thanks,

          Randy Pepprock
          Downtown Deco
          downtowndeco@...



          "Z" WARNING! HANDLE WITH CARE! Highly addictive in Small DoseZ!


          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        • downtowndeco
          I m still finishing the masters for our first Z Scale structure and hope to have it ready to ship by the end of January. I do have to report however, that I
          Message 4 of 30 , Dec 9, 2001
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            I'm still finishing the masters for our first Z Scale structure and
            hope to have it ready to ship by the end of January. I do have to
            report however, that I have gotten an amazingly small response to our
            ad in Z Tracks and doubt that we will do another Z Scale structure if
            I can't get a little more interest in our offerings. No fault of Z
            Tracks, which is a fine magazine, I guess what we are offering is not
            what Z Scalers are looking for. I've gotten less than a dozen calls
            or letters of interest since first announced we would be trying
            something in Z. In that same time period, I've sold over 1000 HO
            kits. You do the math! In any case, no hard feelings here, we'll do
            the one structure in any case, but I don't think we'll be putting
            much energy in offering new products if the market is not there. If
            you would like to see what building I'm talking about, see our ad in
            the current Z Tracks mag or visit our site, www.downtowndeco.com to
            see the HO version of the structure (DD1010). Any ideas on how we
            could sell a few more of these? I'd like to offer one or two
            structures a year (in Z) if I could sell a few more of them. Thanks
            for your input.

            Randy Pepprock
            Downtown Deco
            downtowndeco@...
          • jmac_han
            Honestly, Randy, the price you re asking makes it a no go as far as I m concerned. I was quite disappointed to see that your plan was to sell a 100 unit
            Message 5 of 30 , Dec 9, 2001
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              Honestly, Randy, the price you're asking makes it a no go as far
              as I'm concerned. I was quite disappointed to see that your plan
              was to sell a 100 unit collectible (in the style of David Winter
              cottages) rather than an affordable resin structure. I saw the ad
              and shook my head. You won't get any of my business and I
              certainly wouldn't recommend your product to anyone purely on
              the pricing approach that you have chosen. I'm trying to
              encourage people to take up Z scale model railroading, not
              limited run collectible buildings that happen to be in Z scale.

              You got off to a good start by asking the list what types of
              structures we were looking for. Too bad you didn't ask us about
              the price range we would be willing to support. Looks to me like
              you didn't do your homework or else you got some poor
              marketing advice.

              I wouldn't give up on Z. You don't have to sell a completely
              painted and finished model. Most of us are used to painting
              resin kits. I suggest that you examine some DPM "N" scale kits
              to get an idea of what should do well with US prototype
              modelers.

              Best wishes for the holidays,
              Jeffrey MacHan
              Chief Imagineer
              Val Ease Central Railroad



              --- In z_scale@y..., "downtowndeco" <downtowndeco@m...>
              wrote:
              > I'm still finishing the masters for our first Z Scale structure and
              > hope to have it ready to ship by the end of January. I do have to
              > report however, that I have gotten an amazingly small
              response to our
              > ad in Z Tracks and doubt that we will do another Z Scale
              structure if
              > I can't get a little more interest in our offerings. No fault of Z
              > Tracks, which is a fine magazine, I guess what we are offering
              is not
              > what Z Scalers are looking for. I've gotten less than a dozen
              calls
              > or letters of interest since first announced we would be trying
              > something in Z. In that same time period, I've sold over 1000
              HO
              > kits. You do the math! In any case, no hard feelings here, we'll
              do
              > the one structure in any case, but I don't think we'll be putting
              > much energy in offering new products if the market is not there.
              If
              > you would like to see what building I'm talking about, see our
              ad in
              > the current Z Tracks mag or visit our site,
              www.downtowndeco.com to
              > see the HO version of the structure (DD1010). Any ideas on
              how we
              > could sell a few more of these? I'd like to offer one or two
              > structures a year (in Z) if I could sell a few more of them.
              Thanks
              > for your input.
              >
              > Randy Pepprock
              > Downtown Deco
              > downtowndeco@m...
            • Reynard Wellman
              Hello Randy, I, for one, am going to purchase your structure once it is released. We have to agree with you about the very limited interest Z scalers have in
              Message 6 of 30 , Dec 10, 2001
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                Hello Randy,

                I, for one, am going to purchase your structure once it is released.

                We have to agree with you about the very limited interest Z scalers have in
                model kits.

                We have Z scale stuff sitting around on the inventory shelves that, strictly
                as a figure of speech, is "starting to grow mold".

                Despite the fact that most of the Z scalers on the list are very active and
                supportive of new structures, there aren't enough of them to sustain Z scale
                product lines. Also, Z scale, despite what some may say, is a collector's
                scale and manufacturers are starting to recognize this sad fact. When
                something as important as a locomotive can barely sustain sales of 300
                units, these units will become precious when they are no longer available.

                The price of your Z scale structure kit is reasonable for such a limited
                market. People who have not had the experience of designing, manufacturing,
                advertising and shipping these items have not the faintest idea how much
                labor and capital goes into these products. Just because Z scale is small,
                it does not follow that the cost of producing them would be that much less.

                We plan to continue to produce a very limited quantity of products for Z
                scale and once that market has tapered off, we will discontinue them and the
                remaining kits will go onto the "collectors" market. The reserve might well
                exceed the original price the kits were offered at.

                Ztrack is the best Z scale magazine in the USA and is a remarkable
                achievement. But advertising response has been so quiet that we also have
                become discouraged about mounting further campaigns.

                Yours in mutual interest,
                Reynard Wellman
                Chief Designer, Owner - Micron Art
                http://www.micronart.com


                >Randy Pepprock wrote:

                I'm still finishing the masters for our first Z Scale structure and
                hope to have it ready to ship by the end of January. I do have to
                report however, that I have gotten an amazingly small response to our
                ad in Z Tracks and doubt that we will do another Z Scale structure if
                I can't get a little more interest in our offerings. No fault of Z
                Tracks, which is a fine magazine, I guess what we are offering is not
                what Z Scalers are looking for. I've gotten less than a dozen calls
                or letters of interest since first announced we would be trying
                something in Z. In that same time period, I've sold over 1000 HO
                kits. You do the math! In any case, no hard feelings here, we'll do
                the one structure in any case, but I don't think we'll be putting
                much energy in offering new products if the market is not there. If
                you would like to see what building I'm talking about, see our ad in
                the current Z Tracks mag or visit our site, www.downtowndeco.com to
                see the HO version of the structure (DD1010). Any ideas on how we
                could sell a few more of these? I'd like to offer one or two
                structures a year (in Z) if I could sell a few more of them. Thanks
                for your input.

                Randy Pepprock
                Downtown Deco
                downtowndeco@...


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              • jmac_han
                Hello Reynard, Once again I find myself in slight disagreement with almost everything you say except for a few details. First, don t assume that because the
                Message 7 of 30 , Dec 10, 2001
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                  Hello Reynard,

                  Once again I find myself in slight disagreement with almost
                  everything you say except for a few details. First, don't assume
                  that because the market does not react favorably to a new a product
                  that there is a problem with the market. It's usually the other way
                  round. The product might not meet a need, it might be poorly
                  designed, it might be priced incorrectly (perceived value for cost),
                  it might be mislabeled (ie. kit when it is a hand painted
                  collectible) or the target market might be wrong.


                  --- In z_scale@y..., Reynard Wellman <micron@m...> wrote:
                  > Hello Randy,
                  >
                  > I, for one, am going to purchase your structure once it is released.
                  >
                  > We have to agree with you about the very limited interest Z scalers
                  have in
                  > model kits.

                  How can this be true? Every layout needs structures. Very few
                  modelers that I know go to the trouble of scratch building every
                  structure on the layout. There must be an interest for model kits.

                  The lack of interest may be for certain kinds of structures (kits or
                  otherwise). If the kit needs a moderate to high level of skill to
                  build or if the market thinks that the kit is difficult to build, the
                  kit is likely to fail commercially since it would tend to appeal to
                  the small craftsman segment and not necessarily to the larger
                  collector segment. If the structure is hand-painted and finished to
                  a level of detail that blows everything else away, the modeler might
                  hesitate to add it to the layout. Kitbashing is alive and well in Z
                  and many modelers use N scale styrene kits as a starting point.

                  As I recall, once upon a time I was interested in adding your station
                  or stone works kits to the Val Ease Central. When I asked you about
                  them at NTS2001 you discouraged me from buying them saying that they
                  were too detailed for the structures that I already had on the
                  layout! Strange sales strategy. Who knows I might have "upgraded"
                  my whole layout to Micron Art standards. As a result, I don't have
                  any MA kits and I have no plans to purchase any.

                  >
                  > We have Z scale stuff sitting around on the inventory shelves that,
                  strictly
                  > as a figure of speech, is "starting to grow mold".
                  >
                  > Despite the fact that most of the Z scalers on the list are very
                  active and
                  > supportive of new structures, there aren't enough of them to
                  sustain Z scale
                  > product lines.

                  This is probably true of "certain" z product lines. I would say that
                  it depends on the type of product and the "real" market for these
                  failing lines. I have heard from one new manufacturer of Z
                  structures that the response from the Z community appears to be very
                  positive, so much so that the line is expanding.


                  Also, Z scale, despite what some may say, is a collector's
                  > scale and manufacturers are starting to recognize this sad fact.
                  When
                  > something as important as a locomotive can barely sustain sales of
                  300
                  > units, these units will become precious when they are no longer
                  available.
                  >

                  I agree with you on this one. The collector segment sustains Z for
                  us runners. I submit that the runner segment also helps to fill the
                  ranks of the collector segment. I had no intention of collecting
                  when I started in Z. Now despite my futile attempts to resist I have
                  a very modest (20 car) collection which is bound to grow. It appears
                  to me that it is an important marketing strategy for the major
                  manufacturers to support both segments in order to maintain the
                  viability of the scale.


                  > The price of your Z scale structure kit is reasonable for such a
                  limited
                  > market.

                  I agree the price is reasonable for the "real" market for this
                  collectible, which may become a one off from this manufacturer. It
                  seemed to me that the manufacturer originally implied that he was
                  targeting the general Z modeling community. Are the readers of
                  Ztrack likely to buy such a model? I guess not. There are many US
                  prototype modelers and collectors in Europe, the birthplace of Z.
                  Perhaps the message of the availability of this collectible has not
                  reached them yet.


                  >People who have not had the experience of designing, manufacturing,
                  > advertising and shipping these items have not the faintest idea how
                  much
                  > labor and capital goes into these products. Just because Z scale is
                  small,
                  > it does not follow that the cost of producing them would be that
                  much less.
                  >

                  There may be more people than you realize who have a faint idea of
                  the investment needed to produce such products. In fact, you have
                  provided much valuable information in previous posts on the costs one
                  might expect. My opinion (and that's all it is)is that Downtown Deco
                  missed the boat on the type of product we were looking for and didn't
                  do enough research before making a final product spec decision and
                  spending money on advertising.

                  > We plan to continue to produce a very limited quantity of products
                  for Z
                  > scale and once that market has tapered off, we will discontinue
                  them and the
                  > remaining kits will go onto the "collectors" market. The reserve
                  might well
                  > exceed the original price the kits were offered at.
                  >
                  > Ztrack is the best Z scale magazine in the USA and is a remarkable
                  > achievement. But advertising response has been so quiet that we
                  also have
                  > become discouraged about mounting further campaigns.

                  Here one has to consider the reach of the advertising medium. I
                  assume that you know how many people subscribe to Ztrack. Let's say
                  1 in 5 readers notices your ad and that 1 in 10 of them might be
                  interested in making a purchase. That works out to about 1 in 50
                  subscribers. Unfortunately the numbers support your conclusion about
                  the poor response. So how do you reach more people and more
                  importantly, how do you reach more potential buyers?

                  I enjoy our debates, Reynard, and I sincerely wish you great success
                  in your business endeavors.

                  Happy holidays,

                  Jeffrey MacHan
                • Hans Riddervold
                  Hi, Reynard and group, My other line (besides American Z Line) is H0e and is called Norwegian Rail Miniatures. I have reproduced steam locomotives, passenger
                  Message 8 of 30 , Dec 10, 2001
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                    Hi, Reynard and group,
                    My other line (besides American Z Line) is H0e and is called Norwegian Rail
                    Miniatures. I have reproduced steam locomotives, passenger coaches, freight
                    cars and structures from a railroad called Urskog-Hølandsbanen. What I found
                    is basically everyone wants the locomotive, fewer wants the cars and very
                    few wants the structures. This is symptomatic. It is also a shame, since the
                    structures (I have used resin) are a great compliment to the trains. They
                    also cost far less. My suggestion is to always pick up structures, because
                    they come and go.
                    I am still in the beginning stages of my own Z layout, but the layout will
                    include a lot of structures (U.S. structures that is).
                    Sincerely,

                    Hans Riddervold

                    -----Opprinnelig melding-----
                    Fra: Reynard Wellman [mailto:micron@...]
                    Sendt: 10. desember 2001 15:27
                    Til: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                    Emne: Re: [z_scale] New Z Scale structure.

                    Hello Randy,

                    I, for one, am going to purchase your structure once it is released.

                    We have to agree with you about the very limited interest Z scalers have in
                    model kits.

                    We have Z scale stuff sitting around on the inventory shelves that, strictly
                    as a figure of speech, is "starting to grow mold".

                    Despite the fact that most of the Z scalers on the list are very active and
                    supportive of new structures, there aren't enough of them to sustain Z scale
                    product lines. Also, Z scale, despite what some may say, is a collector's
                    scale and manufacturers are starting to recognize this sad fact. When
                    something as important as a locomotive can barely sustain sales of 300
                    units, these units will become precious when they are no longer available.

                    The price of your Z scale structure kit is reasonable for such a limited
                    market. People who have not had the experience of designing, manufacturing,
                    advertising and shipping these items have not the faintest idea how much
                    labor and capital goes into these products. Just because Z scale is small,
                    it does not follow that the cost of producing them would be that much less.

                    We plan to continue to produce a very limited quantity of products for Z
                    scale and once that market has tapered off, we will discontinue them and the
                    remaining kits will go onto the "collectors" market. The reserve might well
                    exceed the original price the kits were offered at.

                    Ztrack is the best Z scale magazine in the USA and is a remarkable
                    achievement. But advertising response has been so quiet that we also have
                    become discouraged about mounting further campaigns.

                    Yours in mutual interest,
                    Reynard Wellman
                    Chief Designer, Owner - Micron Art
                    http://www.micronart.com


                    >Randy Pepprock wrote:

                    I'm still finishing the masters for our first Z Scale structure and
                    hope to have it ready to ship by the end of January. I do have to
                    report however, that I have gotten an amazingly small response to our
                    ad in Z Tracks and doubt that we will do another Z Scale structure if
                    I can't get a little more interest in our offerings. No fault of Z
                    Tracks, which is a fine magazine, I guess what we are offering is not
                    what Z Scalers are looking for. I've gotten less than a dozen calls
                    or letters of interest since first announced we would be trying
                    something in Z. In that same time period, I've sold over 1000 HO
                    kits. You do the math! In any case, no hard feelings here, we'll do
                    the one structure in any case, but I don't think we'll be putting
                    much energy in offering new products if the market is not there. If
                    you would like to see what building I'm talking about, see our ad in
                    the current Z Tracks mag or visit our site, www.downtowndeco.com to
                    see the HO version of the structure (DD1010). Any ideas on how we
                    could sell a few more of these? I'd like to offer one or two
                    structures a year (in Z) if I could sell a few more of them. Thanks
                    for your input.

                    Randy Pepprock
                    Downtown Deco
                    downtowndeco@...


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                  • Curtis Campbell
                    Hello everyone, and happy holidays! It has been several months since I last posted, but the Christmas season heightens my hobby interest, and winter is my main
                    Message 9 of 30 , Dec 10, 2001
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                      Hello everyone, and happy holidays!

                      It has been several months since I last posted, but the Christmas season
                      heightens my hobby interest, and winter is my main time for trains, as it is
                      usually too cold to do anything else. Over the past year, it would appear
                      that Z has made amazing leaps forward. The NTS seems as though it was a
                      great Z success and I must say that the last issue of ZTrack was fantastic.
                      Many new products have come out of the highest quality. The AZL PA's and
                      C-44's are exquisite!!! Pennzee's hoppers are very very good and most
                      importantly affordable. And of course, FR continues to produce wonderful
                      models of the highest quality in any scale. I commend Harald for his
                      efforts. His rolling stock is affordable too, for the kind of quality you
                      get!

                      It is important to remember that Z is still a very new thing. As such,
                      manufacturers need to remember what gets us hooked. LOCOMOTIVES...and
                      particularly ones in a railroad we know or want to model. I am from
                      Baltimore, and I love the B&O, C&O, Chessie System, PRR, Conrail, NS, and
                      CSX. These are the roads I know, and want to model. I generally buy things
                      with these road names when I can and if funds are available, sometimes
                      regardless of cost. Rolling stock comes after Locomotives, as you need
                      these to have a train. Again I prefer my favorite roads. Last for me, and
                      most folks getting started, is the buildings, and scenery type stuff.

                      Right now the problem for me is putting together stereotypical consists.
                      For instance, the new PA units are great, but with the exception of SP there
                      are no matching locos and rolling stock. (There is an SP daylight PA by
                      AZL, and SP daylight streamliner cars by Marklin...good luck with the
                      coupling change-out, either way!!!!!!!) I got the PRR PA. It may be ok
                      with the long anticipated ACL passenger set by Marklin. This would be a
                      correct lash-up, as PRR ran through trains for the ACL (NY-Miami) but I'd
                      really like to see PRR cars behind this unit. To do this, I will have to
                      purchase other passenger cars and paint them (which would be fun), or hope
                      and pray that marklin makes some PRR equipment someday. Or perhaps someone
                      else will.

                      Same problem for my C-44's. I have an NS unit, but there really isn't any
                      NS rolling stock out there. Funds permitted a second C-44 just recently,
                      and I will be making this a Conrail unit. I hope to get a third, and that
                      will become a CSX unit. Thankfully, Harald makes some wonderful cars to
                      pull behind these gems. Gunderson Husky stack cars, and his new CSX hopper.
                      I plan on purchasing many of these, both RTR and kits. I can then lash-up
                      a CR/NS train of TTX Gunderson Husky intermodel, or a CR/CSX unit coal
                      train, or intermodel.

                      This problem exists for others as well. The UP guys (you are lucky, what a
                      great RR) have C-44's and PA's with really no matching rolling stock.
                      Pennzee, is smart, they have produced hoppers for the MTL F-7's that are out
                      there. AZL, Pennzee, and FR seem to be somewhat on the same page now. They
                      are starting to put out stuff that matches up. Marklin is great, BUT, I
                      really think that they will be overtaken in the US market by the other three
                      mentioned because the MTL F-7 is more prototypical. Marklin's rolling stock
                      is fudged as well. They are the only steam game in town, but the same 2-8-2
                      and 4-6-2 body will eventually wear on the consumer. I won't buy any more
                      of their stuff unless they get original again.

                      I am a new modeler, with some limited skills. It is hard to free lance
                      locos and rolling stock, but buildings I can manage. I say, give us locos
                      and rolling stock, not buildings, and other stuff. Not that I don't want
                      them, I do, but we need to get more people hooked. To do that we need more
                      motive power choices and their accompanying cars. The more people we appeal
                      to the bigger the market for the other stuff. Even in HO or N, there is far
                      more demand for the trains, than there is for the other stuff.

                      Thanks for putting up with my endless ponderings. I'll try to share my
                      free-lancing with you when I figure out how to use the computer...Curtis
                      Campbell

                      ===== Original Message from Hans Riddervold <z_scale@yahoogroups.com> at
                      12/10/01 11:14 am
                      >Hi, Reynard and group,
                      >My other line (besides American Z Line) is H0e and is called Norwegian Rail
                      >Miniatures. I have reproduced steam locomotives, passenger coaches, freight
                      >cars and structures from a railroad called Urskog-Hølandsbanen. What I found
                      >is basically everyone wants the locomotive, fewer wants the cars and very
                      >few wants the structures. This is symptomatic. It is also a shame, since the
                      >structures (I have used resin) are a great compliment to the trains. They
                      >also cost far less. My suggestion is to always pick up structures, because
                      >they come and go.
                      >I am still in the beginning stages of my own Z layout, but the layout will
                      >include a lot of structures (U.S. structures that is).
                      >Sincerely,
                      >
                      >Hans Riddervold
                      >
                      >-----Opprinnelig melding-----
                      >Fra: Reynard Wellman [mailto:micron@...]
                      >Sendt: 10. desember 2001 15:27
                      >Til: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                      >Emne: Re: [z_scale] New Z Scale structure.
                      >
                      >Hello Randy,
                      >
                      >I, for one, am going to purchase your structure once it is released.
                      >
                      >We have to agree with you about the very limited interest Z scalers have in
                      >model kits.
                      >
                      >We have Z scale stuff sitting around on the inventory shelves that, strictly
                      >as a figure of speech, is "starting to grow mold".
                      >
                      >Despite the fact that most of the Z scalers on the list are very active and
                      >supportive of new structures, there aren't enough of them to sustain Z scale
                      >product lines. Also, Z scale, despite what some may say, is a collector's
                      >scale and manufacturers are starting to recognize this sad fact. When
                      >something as important as a locomotive can barely sustain sales of 300
                      >units, these units will become precious when they are no longer available.
                      >
                      >The price of your Z scale structure kit is reasonable for such a limited
                      >market. People who have not had the experience of designing, manufacturing,
                      >advertising and shipping these items have not the faintest idea how much
                      >labor and capital goes into these products. Just because Z scale is small,
                      >it does not follow that the cost of producing them would be that much less.
                      >
                      >We plan to continue to produce a very limited quantity of products for Z
                      >scale and once that market has tapered off, we will discontinue them and the
                      >remaining kits will go onto the "collectors" market. The reserve might well
                      >exceed the original price the kits were offered at.
                      >
                      >Ztrack is the best Z scale magazine in the USA and is a remarkable
                      >achievement. But advertising response has been so quiet that we also have
                      >become discouraged about mounting further campaigns.
                      >
                      >Yours in mutual interest,
                      >Reynard Wellman
                      >Chief Designer, Owner - Micron Art
                      >http://www.micronart.com
                      >
                      >
                      >>Randy Pepprock wrote:
                      >
                      >I'm still finishing the masters for our first Z Scale structure and
                      >hope to have it ready to ship by the end of January. I do have to
                      >report however, that I have gotten an amazingly small response to our
                      >ad in Z Tracks and doubt that we will do another Z Scale structure if
                      >I can't get a little more interest in our offerings. No fault of Z
                      >Tracks, which is a fine magazine, I guess what we are offering is not
                      >what Z Scalers are looking for. I've gotten less than a dozen calls
                      >or letters of interest since first announced we would be trying
                      >something in Z. In that same time period, I've sold over 1000 HO
                      >kits. You do the math! In any case, no hard feelings here, we'll do
                      >the one structure in any case, but I don't think we'll be putting
                      >much energy in offering new products if the market is not there. If
                      >you would like to see what building I'm talking about, see our ad in
                      >the current Z Tracks mag or visit our site, www.downtowndeco.com to
                      >see the HO version of the structure (DD1010). Any ideas on how we
                      >could sell a few more of these? I'd like to offer one or two
                      >structures a year (in Z) if I could sell a few more of them. Thanks
                      >for your input.
                      >
                      >Randy Pepprock
                      >Downtown Deco
                      >downtowndeco@...
                      >
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                    • Reynard Wellman
                      Jeffrey, You offer interesting arguments and I am listening. However, I must disagree with you about using our products on your award winning ValEaseCentral
                      Message 10 of 30 , Dec 10, 2001
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                        Jeffrey,

                        You offer interesting arguments and I am listening. However, I must disagree
                        with you about using our products on your award winning ValEaseCentral
                        railroad. To me it looked like a very complete well designed artistic
                        statement with many scratch built and kit bashed structures. But most of
                        these plastic and styrene structures are less sharp in definition than
                        photo-etched brass. Having the Metal Foundry on your layout would disturb
                        the balance of your design. Layout building is an art, and I like your
                        VEC layout as it is.

                        What I would hope would be that in the future you would purchase Micron Art
                        kits and Miller Engineering kits and DowntownDeco kits for any new layouts
                        you may plan to build. Making a blanket statement that you will not purchase
                        our kits does hurt though, and just continues to feed my insecurities about
                        the whole Z scale market. As for price, I cannot help you there. The bulk of
                        our sales are to dealers and we absolutely will not undercut them to sell
                        off products. Also, I am selling thousands of N scale kits to returning
                        customers who have no problem with the price or the skill needed to build
                        them. N scale is actually supporting our limited Z scale runs.

                        As for the difficulty of building photo-etched kits - hogwash. Sure you can
                        purchase some plastic kits that snap together faster than the metal kits.
                        But the metal kits are not that hard to build, they just take more time to
                        build because there is so much more detail in them. Look at some of those
                        cast resin block houses up against one of Chris Miller's Victorian houses.
                        It like the difference between night and day. Real elegance versus out of
                        scale lumps. It is a difference in style. I do not believe that one is
                        better than the other, it is just my personal taste.

                        I think DowntownDeco's structures are perfect for our needs and you will see
                        them on my layout once I can get my hands on them. I would purchase every Z
                        scale
                        version of them if they come out. The detail is sharp, the signs are
                        wonderful.
                        However, I am not surprised that the Z scale community has responded that
                        well.
                        Randy will probably have more luck once the items are actually available.

                        I like your honest comments though, they keep us on our toes.

                        Thanks and Happy Holidays,
                        Reynard
                        http://www.micronart.com

                        Hello Reynard,

                        Once again I find myself in slight disagreement with almost
                        everything you say except for a few details. First, don't assume
                        that because the market does not react favorably to a new a product
                        that there is a problem with the market. It's usually the other way
                        round. The product might not meet a need, it might be poorly
                        designed, it might be priced incorrectly (perceived value for cost),
                        it might be mislabeled (ie. kit when it is a hand painted
                        collectible) or the target market might be wrong.


                        --- In z_scale@y..., Reynard Wellman <micron@m...> wrote:
                        > Hello Randy,
                        >
                        > I, for one, am going to purchase your structure once it is released.
                        >
                        > We have to agree with you about the very limited interest Z scalers
                        have in
                        > model kits.

                        How can this be true? Every layout needs structures. Very few
                        modelers that I know go to the trouble of scratch building every
                        structure on the layout. There must be an interest for model kits.

                        The lack of interest may be for certain kinds of structures (kits or
                        otherwise). If the kit needs a moderate to high level of skill to
                        build or if the market thinks that the kit is difficult to build, the
                        kit is likely to fail commercially since it would tend to appeal to
                        the small craftsman segment and not necessarily to the larger
                        collector segment. If the structure is hand-painted and finished to
                        a level of detail that blows everything else away, the modeler might
                        hesitate to add it to the layout. Kitbashing is alive and well in Z
                        and many modelers use N scale styrene kits as a starting point.

                        As I recall, once upon a time I was interested in adding your station
                        or stone works kits to the Val Ease Central. When I asked you about
                        them at NTS2001 you discouraged me from buying them saying that they
                        were too detailed for the structures that I already had on the
                        layout! Strange sales strategy. Who knows I might have "upgraded"
                        my whole layout to Micron Art standards. As a result, I don't have
                        any MA kits and I have no plans to purchase any.

                        >
                        > We have Z scale stuff sitting around on the inventory shelves that,
                        strictly
                        > as a figure of speech, is "starting to grow mold".
                        >
                        > Despite the fact that most of the Z scalers on the list are very
                        active and
                        > supportive of new structures, there aren't enough of them to
                        sustain Z scale
                        > product lines.

                        This is probably true of "certain" z product lines. I would say that
                        it depends on the type of product and the "real" market for these
                        failing lines. I have heard from one new manufacturer of Z
                        structures that the response from the Z community appears to be very
                        positive, so much so that the line is expanding.


                        Also, Z scale, despite what some may say, is a collector's
                        > scale and manufacturers are starting to recognize this sad fact.
                        When
                        > something as important as a locomotive can barely sustain sales of
                        300
                        > units, these units will become precious when they are no longer
                        available.
                        >

                        I agree with you on this one. The collector segment sustains Z for
                        us runners. I submit that the runner segment also helps to fill the
                        ranks of the collector segment. I had no intention of collecting
                        when I started in Z. Now despite my futile attempts to resist I have
                        a very modest (20 car) collection which is bound to grow. It appears
                        to me that it is an important marketing strategy for the major
                        manufacturers to support both segments in order to maintain the
                        viability of the scale.


                        > The price of your Z scale structure kit is reasonable for such a
                        limited
                        > market.

                        I agree the price is reasonable for the "real" market for this
                        collectible, which may become a one off from this manufacturer. It
                        seemed to me that the manufacturer originally implied that he was
                        targeting the general Z modeling community. Are the readers of
                        Ztrack likely to buy such a model? I guess not. There are many US
                        prototype modelers and collectors in Europe, the birthplace of Z.
                        Perhaps the message of the availability of this collectible has not
                        reached them yet.


                        >People who have not had the experience of designing, manufacturing,
                        > advertising and shipping these items have not the faintest idea how
                        much
                        > labor and capital goes into these products. Just because Z scale is
                        small,
                        > it does not follow that the cost of producing them would be that
                        much less.
                        >

                        There may be more people than you realize who have a faint idea of
                        the investment needed to produce such products. In fact, you have
                        provided much valuable information in previous posts on the costs one
                        might expect. My opinion (and that's all it is)is that Downtown Deco
                        missed the boat on the type of product we were looking for and didn't
                        do enough research before making a final product spec decision and
                        spending money on advertising.

                        > We plan to continue to produce a very limited quantity of products
                        for Z
                        > scale and once that market has tapered off, we will discontinue
                        them and the
                        > remaining kits will go onto the "collectors" market. The reserve
                        might well
                        > exceed the original price the kits were offered at.
                        >
                        > Ztrack is the best Z scale magazine in the USA and is a remarkable
                        > achievement. But advertising response has been so quiet that we
                        also have
                        > become discouraged about mounting further campaigns.

                        Here one has to consider the reach of the advertising medium. I
                        assume that you know how many people subscribe to Ztrack. Let's say
                        1 in 5 readers notices your ad and that 1 in 10 of them might be
                        interested in making a purchase. That works out to about 1 in 50
                        subscribers. Unfortunately the numbers support your conclusion about
                        the poor response. So how do you reach more people and more
                        importantly, how do you reach more potential buyers?

                        I enjoy our debates, Reynard, and I sincerely wish you great success
                        in your business endeavors.

                        Happy holidays,

                        Jeffrey MacHan


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                      • tony
                        hi all I think that you are all missing the point....the main market for Z gauge is not in the USA but in Europe and European outline... until you produce
                        Message 11 of 30 , Dec 10, 2001
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                          hi all

                          I think that you are all missing the point....the main market for Z gauge is
                          not in the USA but in Europe and European outline... until you produce items
                          for this market you are not going to see large volumes

                          Tony the mad uk z'er with digitrax
                          chief,dt400,bdl16's,rx4's,dac-10's,ds54,and winlok

                          now with added web page at http://pilsenwurst.nccnet.co.uk
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Curtis Campbell" <ccampbell@...>
                          To: "Hans Riddervold" <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 5:14 PM
                          Subject: RE: [z_scale] New Z Scale structure.


                          Hello everyone, and happy holidays!

                          It has been several months since I last posted, but the Christmas season
                          heightens my hobby interest, and winter is my main time for trains, as it is
                          usually too cold to do anything else. Over the past year, it would appear
                          that Z has made amazing leaps forward. The NTS seems as though it was a
                          great Z success and I must say that the last issue of ZTrack was fantastic.
                          Many new products have come out of the highest quality. The AZL PA's and
                          C-44's are exquisite!!! Pennzee's hoppers are very very good and most
                          importantly affordable. And of course, FR continues to produce wonderful
                          models of the highest quality in any scale. I commend Harald for his
                          efforts. His rolling stock is affordable too, for the kind of quality you
                          get!

                          It is important to remember that Z is still a very new thing. As such,
                          manufacturers need to remember what gets us hooked. LOCOMOTIVES...and
                          particularly ones in a railroad we know or want to model. I am from
                          Baltimore, and I love the B&O, C&O, Chessie System, PRR, Conrail, NS, and
                          CSX. These are the roads I know, and want to model. I generally buy things
                          with these road names when I can and if funds are available, sometimes
                          regardless of cost. Rolling stock comes after Locomotives, as you need
                          these to have a train. Again I prefer my favorite roads. Last for me, and
                          most folks getting started, is the buildings, and scenery type stuff.

                          Right now the problem for me is putting together stereotypical consists.
                          For instance, the new PA units are great, but with the exception of SP there
                          are no matching locos and rolling stock. (There is an SP daylight PA by
                          AZL, and SP daylight streamliner cars by Marklin...good luck with the
                          coupling change-out, either way!!!!!!!) I got the PRR PA. It may be ok
                          with the long anticipated ACL passenger set by Marklin. This would be a
                          correct lash-up, as PRR ran through trains for the ACL (NY-Miami) but I'd
                          really like to see PRR cars behind this unit. To do this, I will have to
                          purchase other passenger cars and paint them (which would be fun), or hope
                          and pray that marklin makes some PRR equipment someday. Or perhaps someone
                          else will.

                          Same problem for my C-44's. I have an NS unit, but there really isn't any
                          NS rolling stock out there. Funds permitted a second C-44 just recently,
                          and I will be making this a Conrail unit. I hope to get a third, and that
                          will become a CSX unit. Thankfully, Harald makes some wonderful cars to
                          pull behind these gems. Gunderson Husky stack cars, and his new CSX hopper.
                          I plan on purchasing many of these, both RTR and kits. I can then lash-up
                          a CR/NS train of TTX Gunderson Husky intermodel, or a CR/CSX unit coal
                          train, or intermodel.

                          This problem exists for others as well. The UP guys (you are lucky, what a
                          great RR) have C-44's and PA's with really no matching rolling stock.
                          Pennzee, is smart, they have produced hoppers for the MTL F-7's that are out
                          there. AZL, Pennzee, and FR seem to be somewhat on the same page now. They
                          are starting to put out stuff that matches up. Marklin is great, BUT, I
                          really think that they will be overtaken in the US market by the other three
                          mentioned because the MTL F-7 is more prototypical. Marklin's rolling stock
                          is fudged as well. They are the only steam game in town, but the same 2-8-2
                          and 4-6-2 body will eventually wear on the consumer. I won't buy any more
                          of their stuff unless they get original again.

                          I am a new modeler, with some limited skills. It is hard to free lance
                          locos and rolling stock, but buildings I can manage. I say, give us locos
                          and rolling stock, not buildings, and other stuff. Not that I don't want
                          them, I do, but we need to get more people hooked. To do that we need more
                          motive power choices and their accompanying cars. The more people we appeal
                          to the bigger the market for the other stuff. Even in HO or N, there is far
                          more demand for the trains, than there is for the other stuff.

                          Thanks for putting up with my endless ponderings. I'll try to share my
                          free-lancing with you when I figure out how to use the computer...Curtis
                          Campbell

                          ===== Original Message from Hans Riddervold <z_scale@yahoogroups.com> at
                          12/10/01 11:14 am
                          >Hi, Reynard and group,
                          >My other line (besides American Z Line) is H0e and is called Norwegian Rail
                          >Miniatures. I have reproduced steam locomotives, passenger coaches, freight
                          >cars and structures from a railroad called Urskog-Hølandsbanen. What I
                          found
                          >is basically everyone wants the locomotive, fewer wants the cars and very
                          >few wants the structures. This is symptomatic. It is also a shame, since
                          the
                          >structures (I have used resin) are a great compliment to the trains. They
                          >also cost far less. My suggestion is to always pick up structures, because
                          >they come and go.
                          >I am still in the beginning stages of my own Z layout, but the layout will
                          >include a lot of structures (U.S. structures that is).
                          >Sincerely,
                          >
                          >Hans Riddervold
                          >
                          >-----Opprinnelig melding-----
                          >Fra: Reynard Wellman [mailto:micron@...]
                          >Sendt: 10. desember 2001 15:27
                          >Til: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                          >Emne: Re: [z_scale] New Z Scale structure.
                          >
                          >Hello Randy,
                          >
                          >I, for one, am going to purchase your structure once it is released.
                          >
                          >We have to agree with you about the very limited interest Z scalers have in
                          >model kits.
                          >
                          >We have Z scale stuff sitting around on the inventory shelves that,
                          strictly
                          >as a figure of speech, is "starting to grow mold".
                          >
                          >Despite the fact that most of the Z scalers on the list are very active and
                          >supportive of new structures, there aren't enough of them to sustain Z
                          scale
                          >product lines. Also, Z scale, despite what some may say, is a collector's
                          >scale and manufacturers are starting to recognize this sad fact. When
                          >something as important as a locomotive can barely sustain sales of 300
                          >units, these units will become precious when they are no longer available.
                          >
                          >The price of your Z scale structure kit is reasonable for such a limited
                          >market. People who have not had the experience of designing, manufacturing,
                          >advertising and shipping these items have not the faintest idea how much
                          >labor and capital goes into these products. Just because Z scale is small,
                          >it does not follow that the cost of producing them would be that much less.
                          >
                          >We plan to continue to produce a very limited quantity of products for Z
                          >scale and once that market has tapered off, we will discontinue them and
                          the
                          >remaining kits will go onto the "collectors" market. The reserve might
                          well
                          >exceed the original price the kits were offered at.
                          >
                          >Ztrack is the best Z scale magazine in the USA and is a remarkable
                          >achievement. But advertising response has been so quiet that we also have
                          >become discouraged about mounting further campaigns.
                          >
                          >Yours in mutual interest,
                          >Reynard Wellman
                          >Chief Designer, Owner - Micron Art
                          >http://www.micronart.com
                          >
                          >
                          >>Randy Pepprock wrote:
                          >
                          >I'm still finishing the masters for our first Z Scale structure and
                          >hope to have it ready to ship by the end of January. I do have to
                          >report however, that I have gotten an amazingly small response to our
                          >ad in Z Tracks and doubt that we will do another Z Scale structure if
                          >I can't get a little more interest in our offerings. No fault of Z
                          >Tracks, which is a fine magazine, I guess what we are offering is not
                          >what Z Scalers are looking for. I've gotten less than a dozen calls
                          >or letters of interest since first announced we would be trying
                          >something in Z. In that same time period, I've sold over 1000 HO
                          >kits. You do the math! In any case, no hard feelings here, we'll do
                          >the one structure in any case, but I don't think we'll be putting
                          >much energy in offering new products if the market is not there. If
                          >you would like to see what building I'm talking about, see our ad in
                          >the current Z Tracks mag or visit our site, www.downtowndeco.com to
                          >see the HO version of the structure (DD1010). Any ideas on how we
                          >could sell a few more of these? I'd like to offer one or two
                          >structures a year (in Z) if I could sell a few more of them. Thanks
                          >for your input.
                          >
                          >Randy Pepprock
                          >Downtown Deco
                          >downtowndeco@...
                          >
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                        • Reynard Wellman
                          Hello Tony, Marklin, Kibri and Halwa already have injection molding machines squeezing out tons of European style plastic for their markets. I wouldn t know
                          Message 12 of 30 , Dec 10, 2001
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                            Hello Tony,

                            Marklin, Kibri and Halwa already have injection molding machines squeezing
                            out tons of European style plastic for their markets. I wouldn't know where
                            to begin. Any specific suggestions? What do the Europeans need that I can
                            find accurate, to scale drawings for? What would we produce for them that
                            they don't already have?

                            Just wondering,
                            Reynard

                            >hi all

                            I think that you are all missing the point....the main market for Z gauge is
                            not in the USA but in Europe and European outline... until you produce items
                            for this market you are not going to see large volumes

                            Tony the mad uk z'er with digitrax
                            chief,dt400,bdl16's,rx4's,dac-10's,ds54,and winlok






                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • tony
                            Hi there .... that s not what I was saying what I was making the point of was that if you want large volumes then that s what you have to produce ...... but
                            Message 13 of 30 , Dec 10, 2001
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                              Hi there ....

                              that's not what I was saying what I was making the point of was that if you
                              want large volumes then that's what you have to produce ...... but one thing
                              lacking is telegraph poles and small things like phone booths fencing waste
                              bins, road signs rail signs road markings etc etc all the small stuff

                              Tony


                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Reynard Wellman" <micron@...>
                              To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 6:51 PM
                              Subject: Re: [z_scale] New Z Scale structure.


                              > Hello Tony,
                              >
                              > Marklin, Kibri and Halwa already have injection molding machines squeezing
                              > out tons of European style plastic for their markets. I wouldn't know
                              where
                              > to begin. Any specific suggestions? What do the Europeans need that I can
                              > find accurate, to scale drawings for? What would we produce for them that
                              > they don't already have?
                              >
                              > Just wondering,
                              > Reynard
                              >
                              > >hi all
                              >
                              > I think that you are all missing the point....the main market for Z gauge
                              is
                              > not in the USA but in Europe and European outline... until you produce
                              items
                              > for this market you are not going to see large volumes
                              >
                              > Tony the mad uk z'er with digitrax
                              > chief,dt400,bdl16's,rx4's,dac-10's,ds54,and winlok
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > "Z" WARNING! HANDLE WITH CARE! Highly addictive in Small DoseZ!
                              >
                              >
                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • ztrack@aol.com
                              Tony, I am not too sure that is the case anymore. True, Z scale in huge in Europe and well respected, but the real growth area of Z scale is North American
                              Message 14 of 30 , Dec 10, 2001
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                                Tony,

                                I am not too sure that is the case anymore. True, Z scale in huge in Europe
                                and well respected, but the real growth area of Z scale is North American
                                prototype.

                                Lets face it, Kibri, Vollmer, etc have failed to release any new kits for the
                                Z market. True, they have re-released kits under new names, but no new tool
                                and die work. Märklin of course is leading the way with numerous new items
                                for the European Z market, but after Märklin, the only other manufactures
                                offering European Z scale tends to be smaller, low volume manufacturers.

                                On the North American front, larger, high volume Z manufacturers are
                                increasing. You have Micro-Trains, Pennzee and even to some extent, American
                                Z Lines. Pennzee is leading the way with new rolling stock, and their line of
                                Quickkits buildings. Volume is not a problem!

                                One noted smaller Z manufacturer has actually found that their new European Z
                                product sell in less volume their new North American Prototype items.

                                Trust me, this email is hard to write. I am a European modeler by heart and
                                would LOVE to see more European structures from Kibri, Vollmer, Faller, etc.
                                I have treasure the new items from Artitec for instance. But, from what I am
                                seeing, the growth of Z is really starting to fall in the North American
                                boundaries.

                                Rob Kluz

                                Ztrack Magazine, Ltd.
                                6142 Northcliff Blvd.
                                Dublin, OH 43016
                                Phone/Fax (614) 764-1703
                                www.ztrack.com
                              • Reynard Wellman
                                Hello Again Tony, Micron Art already makes Z scale railroad crossing signs, 12 to a kit with pre-cut brass poles. These will not break off like plastic or wood
                                Message 15 of 30 , Dec 10, 2001
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                                  Hello Again Tony,

                                  Micron Art already makes Z scale railroad crossing signs, 12 to a kit with
                                  pre-cut brass poles. These will not break off like plastic or wood crossing
                                  signs do because they are all brass. Go to http://www.micronart.com to see
                                  them under Z scale accessories. They are the easiest to build of all our
                                  kits, just four components per sign. Chris Miller makes brass telephone
                                  poles and telephone booths, go to http://www.microstru.com to see them.

                                  But none of this has anything to do with European prototype structures.

                                  Anyway, thanks for the input.

                                  Reynard

                                  >Hi there ....

                                  that's not what I was saying what I was making the point of was that if you
                                  want large volumes then that's what you have to produce ...... but one thing
                                  lacking is telegraph poles and small things like phone booths fencing waste
                                  bins, road signs rail signs road markings etc etc all the small stuff

                                  Tony


                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "Reynard Wellman" <micron@...>
                                  To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 6:51 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [z_scale] New Z Scale structure.


                                  > Hello Tony,
                                  >
                                  > Marklin, Kibri and Halwa already have injection molding machines squeezing
                                  > out tons of European style plastic for their markets. I wouldn't know
                                  where
                                  > to begin. Any specific suggestions? What do the Europeans need that I can
                                  > find accurate, to scale drawings for? What would we produce for them that
                                  > they don't already have?
                                  >
                                  > Just wondering,
                                  > Reynard
                                  >
                                  > >hi all
                                  >
                                  > I think that you are all missing the point....the main market for Z gauge
                                  is
                                  > not in the USA but in Europe and European outline... until you produce
                                  items
                                  > for this market you are not going to see large volumes
                                  >
                                  > Tony the mad uk z'er with digitrax
                                  > chief,dt400,bdl16's,rx4's,dac-10's,ds54,and winlok
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > "Z" WARNING! HANDLE WITH CARE! Highly addictive in Small DoseZ!
                                  >
                                  >
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                                  >
                                  >
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                                • tony
                                  hi again I know none of them had any thing to do with European prototypes well not strictly true as the signs would have to be but the poles etc are any where
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Dec 10, 2001
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    hi again

                                    I know none of them had any thing to do with European prototypes well not
                                    strictly true as the signs would have to be but the poles etc are any where
                                    type things that should sell well in any place .. also the brass etching
                                    telegraph poles lack depth so not really a runner

                                    Tony
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "Reynard Wellman" <micron@...>
                                    To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 7:23 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [z_scale] New Z Scale structure.


                                    > Hello Again Tony,
                                    >
                                    > Micron Art already makes Z scale railroad crossing signs, 12 to a kit with
                                    > pre-cut brass poles. These will not break off like plastic or wood
                                    crossing
                                    > signs do because they are all brass. Go to http://www.micronart.com to see
                                    > them under Z scale accessories. They are the easiest to build of all our
                                    > kits, just four components per sign. Chris Miller makes brass telephone
                                    > poles and telephone booths, go to http://www.microstru.com to see them.
                                    >
                                    > But none of this has anything to do with European prototype structures.
                                    >
                                    > Anyway, thanks for the input.
                                    >
                                    > Reynard
                                    >
                                    > >Hi there ....
                                    >
                                    > that's not what I was saying what I was making the point of was that if
                                    you
                                    > want large volumes then that's what you have to produce ...... but one
                                    thing
                                    > lacking is telegraph poles and small things like phone booths fencing
                                    waste
                                    > bins, road signs rail signs road markings etc etc all the small stuff
                                    >
                                    > Tony
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: "Reynard Wellman" <micron@...>
                                    > To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                                    > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 6:51 PM
                                    > Subject: Re: [z_scale] New Z Scale structure.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > > Hello Tony,
                                    > >
                                    > > Marklin, Kibri and Halwa already have injection molding machines
                                    squeezing
                                    > > out tons of European style plastic for their markets. I wouldn't know
                                    > where
                                    > > to begin. Any specific suggestions? What do the Europeans need that I
                                    can
                                    > > find accurate, to scale drawings for? What would we produce for them
                                    that
                                    > > they don't already have?
                                    > >
                                    > > Just wondering,
                                    > > Reynard
                                    > >
                                    > > >hi all
                                    > >
                                    > > I think that you are all missing the point....the main market for Z
                                    gauge
                                    > is
                                    > > not in the USA but in Europe and European outline... until you produce
                                    > items
                                    > > for this market you are not going to see large volumes
                                    > >
                                    > > Tony the mad uk z'er with digitrax
                                    > > chief,dt400,bdl16's,rx4's,dac-10's,ds54,and winlok
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > "Z" WARNING! HANDLE WITH CARE! Highly addictive in Small DoseZ!
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
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                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • Reynard Wellman
                                    Hello Rob, I knew that you would eventually chime in on this one. It s a good debate. Yes, I am very encouraged by the growth of American Z Line products and
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Dec 10, 2001
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Hello Rob,
                                      I knew that you would eventually chime in on this one. It's a good debate.

                                      Yes, I am very encouraged by the growth of American Z Line products and
                                      Penzee's great offerings. Trains and rolling stock are first and everyone
                                      knows that!

                                      However, we who produce structures and accessories are having a harder time
                                      of it (Z scale items only). I can name at least 5 companies that I have
                                      personally been in contact with who once produced Z scale structures and
                                      accessories but have now moved on to other interests. let's face it guys, if
                                      your not going to at least try the products, your not going to have us to
                                      kick around much longer. However, Micron Art does sell a lot of Z scale
                                      products and we will try to offer new structures and accessories as time
                                      goes by. We've had to continually downsize the amount of Z scale items
                                      produced and once the low breaking point is reached, we will stop offering
                                      new items for Z scale at their current low price. I'm staying in because I
                                      want little models for myself, they're cute.

                                      The fact that Downtown Deco is offering this large structure already built
                                      is very nice. The same structure in other scales is already keeping Randy
                                      Pepprock very busy. Looking at the HO version on his website made me very
                                      happy.

                                      I don't know anything about the European market. We get many orders from
                                      Europe. They like the American stuff. No complaints, no fussing about the
                                      price, no returns. We guarantee our products with replacement parts for
                                      broken parts - so far no one has returned anything, except for a certain
                                      dealer in Missouri.

                                      Sure hope that Kibri and Vollmer start making new products. We need them.

                                      Reynard

                                      >Tony,

                                      I am not too sure that is the case anymore. True, Z scale in huge in Europe
                                      and well respected, but the real growth area of Z scale is North American
                                      prototype.

                                      Lets face it, Kibri, Vollmer, etc have failed to release any new kits for
                                      the
                                      Z market. True, they have re-released kits under new names, but no new tool
                                      and die work. Märklin of course is leading the way with numerous new items
                                      for the European Z market, but after Märklin, the only other manufactures
                                      offering European Z scale tends to be smaller, low volume manufacturers.

                                      On the North American front, larger, high volume Z manufacturers are
                                      increasing. You have Micro-Trains, Pennzee and even to some extent, American
                                      Z Lines. Pennzee is leading the way with new rolling stock, and their line
                                      of
                                      Quickkits buildings. Volume is not a problem!

                                      One noted smaller Z manufacturer has actually found that their new European
                                      Z
                                      product sell in less volume their new North American Prototype items.

                                      Trust me, this email is hard to write. I am a European modeler by heart and
                                      would LOVE to see more European structures from Kibri, Vollmer, Faller, etc.
                                      I have treasure the new items from Artitec for instance. But, from what I am
                                      seeing, the growth of Z is really starting to fall in the North American
                                      boundaries.

                                      Rob Kluz

                                      Ztrack Magazine, Ltd.
                                      6142 Northcliff Blvd.
                                      Dublin, OH 43016
                                      Phone/Fax (614) 764-1703
                                      www.ztrack.com

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                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • zbendtrack@aol.com
                                      ... Actually, the answer to US signs may be no further away than your own computer. This two year old post may be of value to you. And, yes, I checked the
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Dec 10, 2001
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Tony:

                                        > ..... but one thing
                                        > lacking is [snip] small things like [snip] road signs, rail signs, etc etc
                                        > all the small stuff

                                        Actually, the answer to US signs may be no further away than your own
                                        computer. This two year old post may be of value to you. And, yes, I
                                        checked the links, they are still valid:

                                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/z_scale/message/332

                                        Let us know how your "speed limit," "left turn" and "no parking" signs come
                                        out.

                                        Bill Kronenberger
                                        Houston
                                      • WILLIAM AND BARBARA BROCK
                                        Reynard, I have to inject my $.02 here, because this is what I am looking for also. I am into the European market and am always looking for new things like
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Dec 10, 2001
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Reynard,

                                          I have to inject my $.02 here, because this is what I
                                          am looking for also. I am into the European market
                                          and am always looking for new things like gas
                                          stations, car dealerships, modern office buildings,
                                          commercial building, which would include storage
                                          warehouses, modern depots, modern manufacturing
                                          plants... etc. How far do you want to go with this?
                                          Just look at what the European manufactures are
                                          producing for HO scale! Similar concepts as DPM could
                                          be done in European modern building walls and roofs;
                                          which are different than US counter parts. Scale
                                          drawings? just buy the HO ones and use these to scale
                                          down. Unique models would be fine also, but the
                                          sources are there already and easy to use.

                                          already have injection
                                          > molding machines squeezing
                                          > out tons of European style plastic for their
                                          > markets.

                                          This I do not agree with at all. In the limited
                                          amount of European buildings that are manufactured,
                                          some of these are obviously the same design with a few
                                          things changed and marketed as a whole new item.

                                          specific suggestions?

                                          How specific do you want to get? The market is very
                                          much there; it just takes thought and I feel not being
                                          to specific, but rather something that catches your
                                          attention but that you might find in any town or city
                                          or any location for that matter.

                                          Just don't throw it up that the Europeans have taken
                                          care of the European side of model buildings. That is
                                          definitely not true! There is much to produce.

                                          Will
                                          --- Reynard Wellman <micron@...> wrote:
                                          > Hello Tony,
                                          >
                                          > Marklin, Kibri and Halwa already have injection
                                          > molding machines squeezing
                                          > out tons of European style plastic for their
                                          > markets. I wouldn't know where
                                          > to begin. Any specific suggestions? What do the
                                          > Europeans need that I can
                                          > find accurate, to scale drawings for? What would we
                                          > produce for them that
                                          > they don't already have?
                                          >
                                          > Just wondering,
                                          > Reynard
                                          >
                                          > >hi all
                                          >
                                          > I think that you are all missing the point....the
                                          > main market for Z gauge is
                                          > not in the USA but in Europe and European outline...
                                          > until you produce items
                                          > for this market you are not going to see large
                                          > volumes
                                          >
                                          > Tony the mad uk z'er with digitrax
                                          > chief,dt400,bdl16's,rx4's,dac-10's,ds54,and winlok
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                          > removed]
                                          >
                                          >


                                          =====
                                          WILLIAM BROCK

                                          __________________________________________________
                                          Do You Yahoo!?
                                          Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of
                                          your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com
                                          or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com
                                        • tony
                                          Rob You are wrong in some points that you make as there have been new structures by kibri(tanks and alike for the factory) brawa and vissemann have introduced
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Dec 10, 2001
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Rob

                                            You are wrong in some points that you make as there have been new structures
                                            by kibri(tanks and alike for the factory) brawa and vissemann have
                                            introduced new lighting ...... but no one does all the little things that
                                            you need

                                            Tony
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: <ztrack@...>
                                            To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 7:07 PM
                                            Subject: Re: [z_scale] New Z Scale structure.


                                            Tony,

                                            I am not too sure that is the case anymore. True, Z scale in huge in Europe
                                            and well respected, but the real growth area of Z scale is North American
                                            prototype.

                                            Lets face it, Kibri, Vollmer, etc have failed to release any new kits for
                                            the
                                            Z market. True, they have re-released kits under new names, but no new tool
                                            and die work. Märklin of course is leading the way with numerous new items
                                            for the European Z market, but after Märklin, the only other manufactures
                                            offering European Z scale tends to be smaller, low volume manufacturers.

                                            On the North American front, larger, high volume Z manufacturers are
                                            increasing. You have Micro-Trains, Pennzee and even to some extent, American
                                            Z Lines. Pennzee is leading the way with new rolling stock, and their line
                                            of
                                            Quickkits buildings. Volume is not a problem!

                                            One noted smaller Z manufacturer has actually found that their new European
                                            Z
                                            product sell in less volume their new North American Prototype items.

                                            Trust me, this email is hard to write. I am a European modeler by heart and
                                            would LOVE to see more European structures from Kibri, Vollmer, Faller, etc.
                                            I have treasure the new items from Artitec for instance. But, from what I am
                                            seeing, the growth of Z is really starting to fall in the North American
                                            boundaries.

                                            Rob Kluz

                                            Ztrack Magazine, Ltd.
                                            6142 Northcliff Blvd.
                                            Dublin, OH 43016
                                            Phone/Fax (614) 764-1703
                                            www.ztrack.com


                                            "Z" WARNING! HANDLE WITH CARE! Highly addictive in Small DoseZ!


                                            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                          • Kari Tanskanen
                                            ... Patience. Less than a dozen contacts is already one tenth of a limited production of 100 (if I remember correctly) and even before the model is available!
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Dec 11, 2001
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              downtowndeco wrote:
                                              >
                                              > I'm still finishing the masters for our first Z Scale structure and
                                              > hope to have it ready to ship by the end of January. I do have to
                                              > report however, that I have gotten an amazingly small response to our
                                              > ad in Z Tracks and doubt that we will do another Z Scale structure if
                                              > I can't get a little more interest in our offerings. No fault of Z
                                              > Tracks, which is a fine magazine, I guess what we are offering is not
                                              > what Z Scalers are looking for. I've gotten less than a dozen calls
                                              > or letters of interest since first announced we would be trying
                                              > something in Z.

                                              Patience. Less than a dozen contacts is already one tenth of a limited
                                              production of 100 (if I remember correctly) and even before the model
                                              is available! Collectors tend to buy locomotives right away when they
                                              are released. But layout builders buy structures when they are in that
                                              stage of work. If your budget was planned on the assumption that this
                                              product would sell out right away, you were expecting easy money.
                                              Ideals situation for customers would be that they were always available
                                              (like the ubiquitous Wintersdorf station of Märklin). At the moment
                                              the price of the factory seems to go beyond my budget (in the sense
                                              that I go and buy something else Z related) but who knows what I
                                              think year 2003.

                                              > The reason we are offering our first structure in a RTR form instead
                                              > of a kit is because in our conversations with stores that sell Z
                                              > Scale product (and as you know, there are not many of them) they told
                                              > us time and again that the only structures that sell at all in Z are
                                              > RTR versions.

                                              At least the response in this group was expecting a kit, although there
                                              wasn't too much of it. I know of Märklin's very cheap looking resin
                                              buildings. Are there other RTR versions around?

                                              ===========================================================================
                                              Kari Tanskanen ktanskan@...
                                              http://tappi.me.tut.fi/~ktanskan/photo/z/
                                              Tampere University of Technology Machine Design Laboratory
                                              ===========================================================================
                                            • Stuart Firth
                                              ... Try coating them in superglue before painting. That should cure some of your problems.
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Dec 11, 2001
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                > From: "tony" <ahellary@...>
                                                > Reply-To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                                > Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 20:15:54 -0000
                                                > To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                                                > Subject: Re: [z_scale] New Z Scale structure.
                                                >
                                                > hi again
                                                >
                                                > I know none of them had any thing to do with European prototypes well not
                                                > strictly true as the signs would have to be but the poles etc are any where
                                                > type things that should sell well in any place .. also the brass etching
                                                > telegraph poles lack depth so not really a runner

                                                Try coating them in 'superglue' before painting. That should cure some of
                                                your problems.
                                                >
                                                > Tony
                                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                                > From: "Reynard Wellman" <micron@...>
                                                > To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                                                > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 7:23 PM
                                                > Subject: Re: [z_scale] New Z Scale structure.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >> Hello Again Tony,
                                                >>
                                                >> Micron Art already makes Z scale railroad crossing signs, 12 to a kit with
                                                >> pre-cut brass poles. These will not break off like plastic or wood
                                                > crossing
                                                >> signs do because they are all brass. Go to http://www.micronart.com to see
                                                >> them under Z scale accessories. They are the easiest to build of all our
                                                >> kits, just four components per sign. Chris Miller makes brass telephone
                                                >> poles and telephone booths, go to http://www.microstru.com to see them.
                                                >>
                                                >> But none of this has anything to do with European prototype structures.
                                                >>
                                                >> Anyway, thanks for the input.
                                                >>
                                                >> Reynard
                                                >>
                                                >>> Hi there ....
                                                >>
                                                >> that's not what I was saying what I was making the point of was that if
                                                > you
                                                >> want large volumes then that's what you have to produce ...... but one
                                                > thing
                                                >> lacking is telegraph poles and small things like phone booths fencing
                                                > waste
                                                >> bins, road signs rail signs road markings etc etc all the small stuff
                                                >>
                                                >> Tony
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >> ----- Original Message -----
                                                >> From: "Reynard Wellman" <micron@...>
                                                >> To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                                                >> Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 6:51 PM
                                                >> Subject: Re: [z_scale] New Z Scale structure.
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >>> Hello Tony,
                                                >>>
                                                >>> Marklin, Kibri and Halwa already have injection molding machines
                                                > squeezing
                                                >>> out tons of European style plastic for their markets. I wouldn't know
                                                >> where
                                                >>> to begin. Any specific suggestions? What do the Europeans need that I
                                                > can
                                                >>> find accurate, to scale drawings for? What would we produce for them
                                                > that
                                                >>> they don't already have?
                                                >>>
                                                >>> Just wondering,
                                                >>> Reynard
                                                >>>
                                                >>>> hi all
                                                >>>
                                                >>> I think that you are all missing the point....the main market for Z
                                                > gauge
                                                >> is
                                                >>> not in the USA but in Europe and European outline... until you produce
                                                >> items
                                                >>> for this market you are not going to see large volumes
                                                >>>
                                                >>> Tony the mad uk z'er with digitrax
                                                >>> chief,dt400,bdl16's,rx4's,dac-10's,ds54,and winlok
                                                >>>
                                                >>>
                                                >>>
                                                >>>
                                                >>>
                                                >>>
                                                >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                >>>
                                                >>>
                                                >>>
                                                >>> "Z" WARNING! HANDLE WITH CARE! Highly addictive in Small DoseZ!
                                                >>>
                                                >>>
                                                >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                                > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                                >>>
                                                >>>
                                                >>>
                                                >>>
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT
                                                >>
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                                                >>
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                                                >> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >> "Z" WARNING! HANDLE WITH CARE! Highly addictive in Small DoseZ!
                                                >>
                                                >>
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                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >
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                                                > "Z" WARNING! HANDLE WITH CARE! Highly addictive in Small DoseZ!
                                                >
                                                >
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                                                >
                                                >
                                              • ahellary@nccnet.co.uk
                                                thays not really a soloution ... what about real poles... there must be some somewhere Tony ... well not ... any where ... etching ... some of ... a kit with
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Dec 11, 2001
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  thays not really a soloution ... what about real poles... there must
                                                  be some somewhere

                                                  Tony


                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > > From: "tony" <ahellary@...>
                                                  > > Reply-To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > > Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 20:15:54 -0000
                                                  > > To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                                                  > > Subject: Re: [z_scale] New Z Scale structure.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > hi again
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I know none of them had any thing to do with European prototypes
                                                  well not
                                                  > > strictly true as the signs would have to be but the poles etc are
                                                  any where
                                                  > > type things that should sell well in any place .. also the brass
                                                  etching
                                                  > > telegraph poles lack depth so not really a runner
                                                  >
                                                  > Try coating them in 'superglue' before painting. That should cure
                                                  some of
                                                  > your problems.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Tony
                                                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                  > > From: "Reynard Wellman" <micron@...>
                                                  > > To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                                                  > > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 7:23 PM
                                                  > > Subject: Re: [z_scale] New Z Scale structure.
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >> Hello Again Tony,
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >> Micron Art already makes Z scale railroad crossing signs, 12 to
                                                  a kit with
                                                  > >> pre-cut brass poles. These will not break off like plastic or
                                                  wood
                                                  > > crossing
                                                  > >> signs do because they are all brass. Go to
                                                  http://www.micronart.com to see
                                                  > >> them under Z scale accessories. They are the easiest to build of
                                                  all our
                                                  > >> kits, just four components per sign. Chris Miller makes brass
                                                  telephone
                                                  > >> poles and telephone booths, go to http://www.microstru.com to
                                                  see them.
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >> But none of this has anything to do with European prototype
                                                  structures.
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >> Anyway, thanks for the input.
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >> Reynard
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >>> Hi there ....
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >> that's not what I was saying what I was making the point of was
                                                  that if
                                                  > > you
                                                  > >> want large volumes then that's what you have to produce ......
                                                  but one
                                                  > > thing
                                                  > >> lacking is telegraph poles and small things like phone booths
                                                  fencing
                                                  > > waste
                                                  > >> bins, road signs rail signs road markings etc etc all the small
                                                  stuff
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >> Tony
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >> ----- Original Message -----
                                                  > >> From: "Reynard Wellman" <micron@...>
                                                  > >> To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                                                  > >> Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 6:51 PM
                                                  > >> Subject: Re: [z_scale] New Z Scale structure.
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >>> Hello Tony,
                                                  > >>>
                                                  > >>> Marklin, Kibri and Halwa already have injection molding machines
                                                  > > squeezing
                                                  > >>> out tons of European style plastic for their markets. I
                                                  wouldn't know
                                                  > >> where
                                                  > >>> to begin. Any specific suggestions? What do the Europeans need
                                                  that I
                                                  > > can
                                                  > >>> find accurate, to scale drawings for? What would we produce for
                                                  them
                                                  > > that
                                                  > >>> they don't already have?
                                                  > >>>
                                                  > >>> Just wondering,
                                                  > >>> Reynard
                                                  > >>>
                                                  > >>>> hi all
                                                  > >>>
                                                  > >>> I think that you are all missing the point....the main market
                                                  for Z
                                                  > > gauge
                                                  > >> is
                                                  > >>> not in the USA but in Europe and European outline... until you
                                                  produce
                                                  > >> items
                                                  > >>> for this market you are not going to see large volumes
                                                  > >>>
                                                  > >>> Tony the mad uk z'er with digitrax
                                                  > >>> chief,dt400,bdl16's,rx4's,dac-10's,ds54,and winlok
                                                  > >>>
                                                  > >>>
                                                  > >>>
                                                  > >>>
                                                  > >>>
                                                  > >>>
                                                  > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  > >>>
                                                  > >>>
                                                  > >>>
                                                  > >>> "Z" WARNING! HANDLE WITH CARE! Highly addictive in Small DoseZ!
                                                  > >>>
                                                  > >>>
                                                  > >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                                  > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                                  > >>>
                                                  > >>>
                                                  > >>>
                                                  > >>>
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >> "Z" WARNING! HANDLE WITH CARE! Highly addictive in Small DoseZ!
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                                                  Service
                                                  > >> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >> "Z" WARNING! HANDLE WITH CARE! Highly addictive in Small DoseZ!
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                                  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > "Z" WARNING! HANDLE WITH CARE! Highly addictive in Small DoseZ!
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                                  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
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                                                  >
                                                • Stuart Firth
                                                  ... In quoting and supporting the above, I recall the comments of a previous business partner of mine who blamed the lack of success of one of our lines
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Dec 11, 2001
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    > From: Reynard Wellman <micron@...>
                                                    > Reply-To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 11:16:29 -0600
                                                    > To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                                                    > Subject: Re: [z_scale] Re: New Z Scale structure.
                                                    >
                                                    > As for the difficulty of building photo-etched kits - hogwash. Sure you can
                                                    > purchase some plastic kits that snap together faster than the metal kits.
                                                    > But the metal kits are not that hard to build, they just take more time to
                                                    > build because there is so much more detail in them. Look at some of those
                                                    > cast resin block houses up against one of Chris Miller's Victorian houses.
                                                    > It like the difference between night and day. Real elegance versus out of
                                                    > scale lumps. It is a difference in style. I do not believe that one is
                                                    > better than the other, it is just my personal taste.


                                                    In quoting and supporting the above, I recall the comments of a previous
                                                    business partner of mine who blamed the lack of success of one of our lines
                                                    (Artitec, Dutch made, European prototype resin buildings and ships in HO, N
                                                    & Z) on the time that needed to be invested to produce a creditable result
                                                    from one of their kits.

                                                    My answer took the form of pointing out that a person's time 'engaged' in
                                                    their chosen hobby frequently constituted the sole justification for their
                                                    so doing....The journey outweighs the destination in importance, as Zen as
                                                    this may sound, for some of us.

                                                    I went on to say that the real added value was intrinsic in the skills that
                                                    needed to be negotiated and to be thought through to get to the best that we
                                                    were capable of at the time, and the leisure time that was purposefully
                                                    spent learning, innovating and using the mind for the processes of
                                                    synthesis.

                                                    Personally, I find this to be good therapy.

                                                    Anyway, it is one of the better remedies for the stressed world that we find
                                                    ourselves in, although I find it quite understandable that immersion in the
                                                    past, and it's recreation can be very comforting.

                                                    The prototype can be 'captured' without a great deal of doubt or inaccuracy.

                                                    In the times in which we live I think that we all wish that we could say the
                                                    same about the future!

                                                    Regards,

                                                    Stuart Firth

                                                    As an aside, I find it quite remarkable how many 'marketing gurus' that this
                                                    particular topic has extracted from the woodwork.

                                                    "I think that you are all missing the point....the main market for Z gauge
                                                    is
                                                    not in the USA but in Europe and European outline... until you produce items
                                                    for this market you are not going to see large volumes"
                                                  • Reynard Wellman
                                                    Hello William, I m all in favor of more. More takes time though or least a larger staff. That s why we have great scratch builders like Jeffrey MacHan not
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Dec 11, 2001
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      Hello William,

                                                      I'm all in favor of more. More takes time though or least a larger staff.
                                                      That's why we have great scratch builders like Jeffrey MacHan not letting
                                                      the absence of a structure get in way of completing his layouts.

                                                      As for copying other manufacturers models to fill out the line... well, a
                                                      little of that goes a long way and one must be careful not to step on the
                                                      copyright laws, but of more of concern to me is creating something new that
                                                      has never been modeled before or in modeling something that needs to be
                                                      improved in interpretation. If I can't do it better or at least more
                                                      accurately using original drawings, photographs and text, then I don't want
                                                      to do it all.

                                                      And like I said to Alex, Micron Art is busy filling out the steam era with
                                                      items for now. We will plow into the modern era later next year, just basic
                                                      stuff first.

                                                      Thanks for your ideas though, I'm downloading your email list of buildings
                                                      and will take them into serious consideration.

                                                      Best regards,
                                                      Reynard

                                                      >WILLIAM BROCK WROTE:

                                                      >Reynard,

                                                      I have to inject my $.02 here, because this is what I
                                                      am looking for also. I am into the European market
                                                      and am always looking for new things like gas
                                                      stations, car dealerships, modern office buildings,
                                                      commercial building, which would include storage
                                                      warehouses, modern depots, modern manufacturing
                                                      plants... etc. How far do you want to go with this?
                                                      Just look at what the European manufactures are
                                                      producing for HO scale! Similar concepts as DPM could
                                                      be done in European modern building walls and roofs;
                                                      which are different than US counter parts. Scale
                                                      drawings? just buy the HO ones and use these to scale
                                                      down. Unique models would be fine also, but the
                                                      sources are there already and easy to use.

                                                      snip...




                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    • ztrack@aol.com
                                                      Tony, The new offering from Kibri are actually the same tanks, fences, and other parts that have been recycled from their other kits. The one item from Kibri
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Dec 11, 2001
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                                                        Tony,

                                                        The new offering from Kibri are actually the same tanks, fences, and other
                                                        parts that have been recycled from their other kits. The one item from Kibri
                                                        which is truly new to Z scale is the walls, fountain, table (i.e., beer
                                                        garden) set. Though a nice offering, I would love to see some of the offering
                                                        available in HO and N scaled down to Z. I have heard that Kibri has
                                                        discontinued a number of kits. I am hoping we will see new kits replace them
                                                        in 2002.

                                                        Rob Kluz

                                                        Ztrack Magazine, Ltd.
                                                        6142 Northcliff Blvd.
                                                        Dublin, OH 43016
                                                        Phone/Fax (614) 764-1703
                                                        www.ztrack.com
                                                      • ahellary@nccnet.co.uk
                                                        rob even so your message was wrong then as was mine :) Tony ... and other ... from Kibri ... beer ... the offering ... replace them ... ~-- ... -~- ...
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Dec 11, 2001
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          rob

                                                          even so your message was wrong then as was mine :)

                                                          Tony

                                                          > Tony,
                                                          >
                                                          > The new offering from Kibri are actually the same tanks, fences,
                                                          and other
                                                          > parts that have been recycled from their other kits. The one item
                                                          from Kibri
                                                          > which is truly new to Z scale is the walls, fountain, table (i.e.,
                                                          beer
                                                          > garden) set. Though a nice offering, I would love to see some of
                                                          the offering
                                                          > available in HO and N scaled down to Z. I have heard that Kibri has
                                                          > discontinued a number of kits. I am hoping we will see new kits
                                                          replace them
                                                          > in 2002.
                                                          >
                                                          > Rob Kluz
                                                          >
                                                          > Ztrack Magazine, Ltd.
                                                          > 6142 Northcliff Blvd.
                                                          > Dublin, OH 43016
                                                          > Phone/Fax (614) 764-1703
                                                          > www.ztrack.com
                                                          >
                                                          > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------
                                                          ~-->
                                                          > Break free. Great
                                                          > American Smokeout
                                                          > http://us.click.yahoo.com/3vN8tD/.pSDAA/ySSFAA/YSTolB/TM
                                                          > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                          -~->
                                                          >
                                                          > "Z" WARNING! HANDLE WITH CARE! Highly addictive in Small DoseZ!
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                                          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                        • ztrack@aol.com
                                                          Tony, You are correct! I forgot about the wall sections in my fist email ;-). Rob Ztrack Magazine, Ltd. 6142 Northcliff Blvd. Dublin, OH 43016 Phone/Fax (614)
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Dec 11, 2001
                                                          • 0 Attachment
                                                            Tony,

                                                            You are correct! I forgot about the wall sections in my fist email ;-).

                                                            Rob

                                                            Ztrack Magazine, Ltd.
                                                            6142 Northcliff Blvd.
                                                            Dublin, OH 43016
                                                            Phone/Fax (614) 764-1703
                                                            www.ztrack.com
                                                          • WILLIAM AND BARBARA BROCK
                                                            Reynard, Thanks for downloading my list of buildings and taking these into serious consideration. I am definitely looking forward to your models of the
                                                            Message 29 of 30 , Dec 11, 2001
                                                            • 0 Attachment
                                                              Reynard,

                                                              Thanks for downloading my "list of buildings" and
                                                              taking these into serious consideration. I am
                                                              definitely looking forward to your models of the
                                                              future, as I do like the detail in your structures.
                                                              If I was modeling US prototype I would be all over
                                                              them.

                                                              But to add a little more to what I said previously, I
                                                              do understand that more takes time, expense, personel,
                                                              and frustration that comes along. For someone who
                                                              just wants to add something to the scale you are doing
                                                              good, especially being able to make money to offset
                                                              what you spend on the hobby. That is an ideal
                                                              situation.

                                                              Also, I understand about copyright laws. Just trying
                                                              to bring out the point, that buildings produced in
                                                              'the major scale' can find success in the smaller
                                                              scales. Additionally, with out 'beating the
                                                              deadhorse', everything has NOT been done in European
                                                              structures by European model manufactures. The
                                                              spectrum is wide open and if you find something that
                                                              intrigues go for it. However, if you want profit you
                                                              may have to look at something that is a little more
                                                              common, which can be found in any number of places
                                                              so-to-speak.

                                                              Yet and with that in mind, thanks again for your
                                                              consideration.

                                                              Will
                                                              --- Reynard Wellman <micron@...> wrote:
                                                              > Hello William,
                                                              >
                                                              > I'm all in favor of more. More takes time though or
                                                              > least a larger staff.
                                                              > That's why we have great scratch builders like
                                                              > Jeffrey MacHan not letting
                                                              > the absence of a structure get in way of completing
                                                              > his layouts.
                                                              >
                                                              > As for copying other manufacturers models to fill
                                                              > out the line... well, a
                                                              > little of that goes a long way and one must be
                                                              > careful not to step on the
                                                              > copyright laws, but of more of concern to me is
                                                              > creating something new that
                                                              > has never been modeled before or in modeling
                                                              > something that needs to be
                                                              > improved in interpretation. If I can't do it better
                                                              > or at least more
                                                              > accurately using original drawings, photographs and
                                                              > text, then I don't want
                                                              > to do it all.
                                                              >
                                                              > And like I said to Alex, Micron Art is busy filling
                                                              > out the steam era with
                                                              > items for now. We will plow into the modern era
                                                              > later next year, just basic
                                                              > stuff first.
                                                              >
                                                              > Thanks for your ideas though, I'm downloading your
                                                              > email list of buildings
                                                              > and will take them into serious consideration.
                                                              >
                                                              > Best regards,
                                                              > Reynard
                                                              >
                                                              > >WILLIAM BROCK WROTE:
                                                              >
                                                              > >Reynard,
                                                              >
                                                              > I have to inject my $.02 here, because this is what
                                                              > I
                                                              > am looking for also. I am into the European market
                                                              > and am always looking for new things like gas
                                                              > stations, car dealerships, modern office buildings,
                                                              > commercial building, which would include storage
                                                              > warehouses, modern depots, modern manufacturing
                                                              > plants... etc. How far do you want to go with this?
                                                              > Just look at what the European manufactures are
                                                              > producing for HO scale! Similar concepts as DPM
                                                              > could
                                                              > be done in European modern building walls and roofs;
                                                              > which are different than US counter parts. Scale
                                                              > drawings? just buy the HO ones and use these to
                                                              > scale
                                                              > down. Unique models would be fine also, but the
                                                              > sources are there already and easy to use.
                                                              >
                                                              > snip...
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                                              > removed]
                                                              >
                                                              >


                                                              =====
                                                              WILLIAM BROCK

                                                              __________________________________________________
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                                                            • Reynard Wellman
                                                              Hello William, I am pleased with your view of our products. I believe that once Z scale draws a larger variety of talents into the game, there will be more
                                                              Message 30 of 30 , Dec 11, 2001
                                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                                Hello William,

                                                                I am pleased with your view of our products. I believe that once Z scale
                                                                draws a larger variety of talents into the game, there will be more trains,
                                                                structures, etc to choose from.

                                                                (This next part of my note is a follow up to some discussions that were
                                                                posted yesterday and are not necessarily related to your emails)

                                                                At this point all new manufacturing attempted by those who are interested in
                                                                providing items for Z and N scale should be welcomed by our group and we
                                                                should in turn provide positive and critical feedback so that their products
                                                                can evolve to our complete satisfaction. One thing, however, that I believe
                                                                is going to be a nonsequitur to this process are complaints about prices.
                                                                This does not help improve products. If a competitor can provide it cheaper
                                                                and better then so be it, that's where your money should go.

                                                                Best regards,
                                                                Reynard
                                                                http://www.micronart.com

                                                                William Brock wrote:

                                                                >Reynard,

                                                                Thanks for downloading my "list of buildings" and
                                                                taking these into serious consideration. I am
                                                                definitely looking forward to your models of the
                                                                future, as I do like the detail in your structures.
                                                                If I was modeling US prototype I would be all over
                                                                them.

                                                                <snip



                                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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