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Re: [Z_Scale] Homemade catenary/overhead?

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  • reynard wellman
    Hello Kev, What is PB? 3/8 dowels? For Z scale that would be as thick as the columns of the Acropolis. Naturally, I think a US catenary layout would be so
    Message 1 of 9 , Jul 2, 2011
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      Hello Kev,

      What is PB?

      3/8" dowels? For Z scale that would be as thick as
      the columns of the Acropolis.

      Naturally, I think a US catenary layout would be so cool!
      Perhaps a bit of research of Penn's trackside utilities
      might be more helpful than anything I might say ;>)

      Wishing you the best of luck,

      Reynard
      On Jul 2, 2011, at 5:02 PM, Kevin Brady wrote:

      > Hi all,
      > Any thoughts on making overhead/catenary?Yes,this is a question
      > for mainly European modelers.Or PRR,or Milwaukee Road,... ;-)
      > I have in my Z-scale project,hidden masts in a mountain area that will run
      > an E-lok on the wire,in part of multi-train control,....
      > I am thinking to use 3/8" dowels as masts,drilling 1/4" hangers as overhead
      > and then using PB as a 'hanger' and then dual PB wire as,....the contact?
      >
      > Thanks for any help,Kev
      >
      > --
      > Dr. Dirt's Weathering Service
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • david.davidksmith
      PB is phosphor bronze wire. Regards, David http://davidksmith.com/modeling.htm
      Message 2 of 9 , Jul 2, 2011
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        PB is phosphor bronze wire.

        Regards,
        David

        http://davidksmith.com/modeling.htm

        --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, reynard wellman <micron@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello Kev,
        >
        > What is PB?
        >
        > 3/8" dowels? For Z scale that would be as thick as
        > the columns of the Acropolis.
        >
        > Naturally, I think a US catenary layout would be so cool!
        > Perhaps a bit of research of Penn's trackside utilities
        > might be more helpful than anything I might say ;>)
        >
        > Wishing you the best of luck,
        >
        > Reynard
        > On Jul 2, 2011, at 5:02 PM, Kevin Brady wrote:
        >
        > > Hi all,
        > > Any thoughts on making overhead/catenary?Yes,this is a question
        > > for mainly European modelers.Or PRR,or Milwaukee Road,... ;-)
        > > I have in my Z-scale project,hidden masts in a mountain area that will run
        > > an E-lok on the wire,in part of multi-train control,....
        > > I am thinking to use 3/8" dowels as masts,drilling 1/4" hangers as overhead
        > > and then using PB as a 'hanger' and then dual PB wire as,....the contact?
        > >
        > > Thanks for any help,Kev
        > >
        > > --
        > > Dr. Dirt's Weathering Service
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • reynard wellman
        Hi David, On another Z website a few years ago there were a few modelers building PBL dioramas and posting photos of them on the website. I couldn t for the
        Message 3 of 9 , Jul 2, 2011
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          Hi David,

          On another Z website a few years ago there
          were a few modelers building PBL dioramas
          and posting photos of them on the website.
          I couldn't for the life of me figure out what "PBL"
          meant so I asked the moderator what it was.
          Turns out it stood for "peanut butter lid" size
          dioramas.

          Abbreviations do befuddle me. phosphor bronze? Wouldn't that be
          Cu_Zn_P_ in various ratios?

          The periodic table is hard to memorize, especially
          when alloys get involved and bond themselves
          to each other.

          Don't take this too seriously...
          I'm always scratching my head ;>)

          Reynard

          On Jul 2, 2011, at 7:30 PM, david.davidksmith wrote:

          > PB is phosphor bronze wire.
          >
          > Regards,
          > David
          >
          > http://davidksmith.com/modeling.htm
          >
          > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, reynard wellman <micron@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hello Kev,
          > >
          > > What is PB?
          > >
          > > 3/8" dowels? For Z scale that would be as thick as
          > > the columns of the Acropolis.
          > >
          > > Naturally, I think a US catenary layout would be so cool!
          > > Perhaps a bit of research of Penn's trackside utilities
          > > might be more helpful than anything I might say ;>)
          > >
          > > Wishing you the best of luck,
          > >
          > > Reynard
          > > On Jul 2, 2011, at 5:02 PM, Kevin Brady wrote:
          > >
          > > > Hi all,
          > > > Any thoughts on making overhead/catenary?Yes,this is a question
          > > > for mainly European modelers.Or PRR,or Milwaukee Road,... ;-)
          > > > I have in my Z-scale project,hidden masts in a mountain area that will run
          > > > an E-lok on the wire,in part of multi-train control,....
          > > > I am thinking to use 3/8" dowels as masts,drilling 1/4" hangers as overhead
          > > > and then using PB as a 'hanger' and then dual PB wire as,....the contact?
          > > >
          > > > Thanks for any help,Kev
          > > >
          > > > --
          > > > Dr. Dirt's Weathering Service
          > > >
          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Alan Cox
          On Sat, 2 Jul 2011 18:09:42 -0500 ... [I hope he means phosphor/bronze not lead 8)] ... Fine brass tubing is probably a better bet assuming the prototype poles
          Message 4 of 9 , Jul 3, 2011
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            On Sat, 2 Jul 2011 18:09:42 -0500
            reynard wellman <micron@...> wrote:

            > Hello Kev,
            >
            > What is PB?

            [I hope he means phosphor/bronze not lead 8)]

            > 3/8" dowels? For Z scale that would be as thick as
            > the columns of the Acropolis.

            Fine brass tubing is probably a better bet assuming the prototype poles
            are solid and round. For squared girder you probably have to etch them.
            For solid shapes one way to do it is to make a master around a piece of
            brass rod and then cast from it. If you make sure the rod sticks out of
            the master top and bottom you can then put a rod into the mould and white
            metal or resin cast around it for strength.

            One good thing about making them out of metal is you don't need any
            unsightly magic feeders - you just feed power to the bottom of some of
            the posts and the rest just happens.

            > > and then using PB as a 'hanger' and then dual PB wire as,....the contact?

            I'm sceptical that you can avoid fine wire stretching, and no wire is
            going to be thin enough. I guess stainless steel might work ok but would
            be a pain to assemble as its horrid stuff to solder up.

            In N a lot of people use stretchy monofilaments for the wires which means
            they can be moved aside for cleaning and the like but does require the
            pantographs are set to skim just below the actual wire.

            Alan
          • Kevin Brady
            Hi all, Thanks to all for the responses and advise! ... Alan,yes :-),lead for rolling stock only! ... I apologize if I wasn t clear in my original post.These
            Message 5 of 9 , Jul 3, 2011
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              Hi all,
              Thanks to all for the responses and advise!

              >[I hope he means phosphor/bronze not lead 8)]<
              >

              Alan,yes :-),lead for rolling stock only!

              >
              >
              > >Fine brass tubing is probably a better bet assuming the prototype poles
              > are solid and round. For squared girder you probably have to etch them.
              > For solid shapes one way to do it is to make a master around a piece of
              > brass rod and then cast from it. If you make sure the rod sticks out of
              > the master top and bottom you can then put a rod into the mould and white
              > metal or resin cast around it for strength.<
              >

              I apologize if I wasn't clear in my original post.These are hidden,inside a
              mountain,they will not be seen.The reason I -have- to do this is that the
              E-loks will be running off the wire.And yes,I tried to talk the customer
              into DCC! 8~)))

              >
              > >One good thing about making them out of metal is you don't need any
              > unsightly magic feeders - you just feed power to the bottom of some of
              > the posts and the rest just happens.<
              >

              I thought of that,...

              >
              >
              >
              >
              > >I'm sceptical that you can avoid fine wire stretching, and no wire is
              > going to be thin enough. I guess stainless steel might work ok but would
              > be a pain to assemble as its horrid stuff to solder up.<
              >

              True,but again you will only been seen when you remove the
              mountain! Phosphor-bronze in both sheet and wire form is easy to work
              with/solder.

              >
              > >In N a lot of people use stretchy monofilaments for the wires which means
              > they can be moved aside for cleaning and the like but does require the
              > pantographs are set to skim just below the actual wire.<
              >

              HO folks too!

              My idea with the dowels is to use the 3/8" dowels as masts,drill a hole for
              the 1/4" 'hanger',glue,fashion a contact piece under the hanger,solder the
              wire to it.

              Thanks again all!

              Kev

              >
              >
              >
              >



              --
              Dr. Dirt's Weathering Service


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • richard_lai.geo
              Something I found from a Japanese website of a DIY catenary. I hope the photos are self-explanatory,
              Message 6 of 9 , Jul 3, 2011
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                Something I found from a Japanese website of a DIY catenary. I hope the photos are self-explanatory,

                <http://spur-z-room.com/modules/layout/index.php?content_id=9>
                <http://spur-z-room.com/modules/layout/index.php?content_id=10>


                --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Brady <kbvrod@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi all,
                > Any thoughts on making overhead/catenary?Yes,this is a question
                > for mainly European modelers.Or PRR,or Milwaukee Road,... ;-)
                > I have in my Z-scale project,hidden masts in a mountain area that will run
                > an E-lok on the wire,in part of multi-train control,....
                > I am thinking to use 3/8" dowels as masts,drilling 1/4" hangers as overhead
                > and then using PB as a 'hanger' and then dual PB wire as,....the contact?
                >
                > Thanks for any help,Kev
                >
                > --
                > Dr. Dirt's Weathering Service
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • reynard wellman
                Hi Alan, Good observations. I find the idea of modeling the Penn RR very alluring. I ve found that etched stainless steel is a poor conductor of juice. And
                Message 7 of 9 , Jul 3, 2011
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                  Hi Alan,

                  Good observations. I find the idea of modeling
                  the Penn RR very alluring.
                  I've found that etched stainless steel is a
                  poor conductor of juice. And yes, Pb is the periodic symbol
                  for lead, not for peanut butter or phosphor bronze. Pb (lead)
                  is also a poor conductor.

                  For it's tensile resilience, etched nickel/silver alloy
                  ( has no silver in it, it just looks like silver) is one way to
                  go for catenary lines, though it is a pricey alloy and takes
                  longer to etch, a factor that adds to the bottom line costs.
                  A good conductor.

                  Marklin already makes nice catenary, though Euro looking and
                  Euro costing. My Marklin Z scale GG1 is a stunningly beautiful loco
                  but they have no plans to release an American PRR style catenary for it.

                  BeCu (beryllium copper) is also a very good conductor but again,
                  priced out of the market right now if you can find it. fumes
                  from BeCu can be a health hazard.

                  Phosphor/bronze is a good choice. Great tensile resilience.
                  Also a good conductor. Pricing can be reasonable.

                  Steel "music" wire is tremendously resilient and will conduct
                  juice. It is also affordable. A combination of etched Hard brass,
                  brass tubing and then stringing the towers with music wire
                  or phosphor/bronze might fit the bill for a cost effective Z scale US catenary.

                  After the Holidays I'll discuss this with my metals suppliers to
                  see how far this could go.

                  regardZ,

                  Reynard
                  http://www.micronart.com
                  On Jul 3, 2011, at 7:30 AM, Alan Cox wrote:

                  > On Sat, 2 Jul 2011 18:09:42 -0500
                  > reynard wellman <micron@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > Hello Kev,
                  > >
                  > > What is PB?
                  >
                  > [I hope he means phosphor/bronze not lead 8)]
                  >
                  > > 3/8" dowels? For Z scale that would be as thick as
                  > > the columns of the Acropolis.
                  >
                  > Fine brass tubing is probably a better bet assuming the prototype poles
                  > are solid and round. For squared girder you probably have to etch them.
                  > For solid shapes one way to do it is to make a master around a piece of
                  > brass rod and then cast from it. If you make sure the rod sticks out of
                  > the master top and bottom you can then put a rod into the mould and white
                  > metal or resin cast around it for strength.
                  >
                  > One good thing about making them out of metal is you don't need any
                  > unsightly magic feeders - you just feed power to the bottom of some of
                  > the posts and the rest just happens.
                  >
                  > > > and then using PB as a 'hanger' and then dual PB wire as,....the contact?
                  >
                  > I'm sceptical that you can avoid fine wire stretching, and no wire is
                  > going to be thin enough. I guess stainless steel might work ok but would
                  > be a pain to assemble as its horrid stuff to solder up.
                  >
                  > In N a lot of people use stretchy monofilaments for the wires which means
                  > they can be moved aside for cleaning and the like but does require the
                  > pantographs are set to skim just below the actual wire.
                  >
                  > Alan
                  >



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • FR-model
                  Hi Kevin, A few years ago I made an etched stainless steel fret to build PRR-style catenary for David Barnblatt in Santa Monica, CA. The fret includes much
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jul 4, 2011
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                    Hi Kevin,

                    A few years ago I made an etched stainless steel fret to build
                    PRR-style catenary for David Barnblatt in Santa Monica, CA.
                    The fret includes much more parts than he can ever use in this life.
                    You should probably contact him.
                    At my webshop you can find Swiss and Scandinavian style catenary masts
                    only. They are surely useless for your purpose?

                    If you want to use electric operating catenary wire Sommerfeldt
                    N-scale expert wires #440-#444 are the best. They are thinn and
                    remarkable solid.

                    Harald


                    "Kevin Brady" <kbvrod@...> schrieb:

                    Hi all,
                    Any thoughts on making overhead/catenary?Yes,this is a question
                    for mainly European modelers.Or PRR,or Milwaukee Road,... ;-)
                    I have in my Z-scale project,hidden masts in a mountain area that will
                    run
                    an E-lok on the wire,in part of multi-train control,....
                    I am thinking to use 3/8" dowels as masts,drilling 1/4" hangers as
                    overhead
                    and then using PB as a 'hanger' and then dual PB wire as,....the
                    contact?
                    --
                    FREUDENREICH FEINWERKTECHNIK
                    Harald Thom-Freudenreich
                    Schwarzer Weg 1B
                    D-18190 Sanitz / Mecklenburg
                    Phone: +49 38209 49160 Fax: +49 38209 49161
                    e-mail: FR.model@... web: www.FR-model.de

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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