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Re: =?ISO-8859-14?B?UulmLjo=?= [Z_Scale] Re: Z Ops was Frustrated, Discouraged, and Disillusioned

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  • Alan Cox
    ... You need very clean well laid track, you need locos that will run nicely at very low speed and have been well tuned, you need level boards and sometimes to
    Message 1 of 18 , Jul 2, 2011
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      > With all due respect, Alan, the idea that "there isn't much difference between Z and other scales here so any switching
      > layout should work" is the assumption that lead me down the primrose path to my current dilemma. One does not have to build their own turnouts in HO or N scale to get the reliability required for a fair-sized yard or two. And with all the talk of Z-scale switching layout "plans", the only switching videos I've located are Dom's and this one from Small WonderZ:
      > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3yZOQUQ3so
      > Neither will be mistaken for a prototypical railroad yard.

      You need very clean well laid track, you need locos that will run nicely
      at very low speed and have been well tuned, you need level boards and
      sometimes to carefully have graphited the couplers.

      MTL turnouts are not the greatest but with diesels picking up off 8
      wheels you shouldn't be getting a problem because the trucks are
      independantly pivoting and rocking and the loco therefore should always
      have a good reliable power feed even without the electrofrog pointwork.
      If you are using small steam locos its a whole different ball game.

      Same in N, and you really need electrofrog pointwork in N if you using
      small shunting locos just the same (and in OO !).

      Prototypical switching really needs O or Gauge 1 for other reasons,
      notably you can't fly shunt in smaller scales because the physics doesn't
      work. But within those limits you shouldn't have a problem, and it's
      worth spending the time doing the detective work, checking all the point
      blades are properly powered, videoing the locos crossing problem switches
      and playing them slow motion to see what happens etc.

      Its a small high precision mechanical system, it has to be treated like
      one to get the best results.

      Alan
    • de Champeaux Dominique
      ... My pleasure Ron. That proves at least one thing, reliable operations are possible in Z scale. Dom
      Message 2 of 18 , Jul 3, 2011
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        >Thank you for sharing the useful information and video, Dom. THAT is the >type of operation (times 7.5) that I expected when I plunked down my >money.

        My pleasure Ron. That proves at least one thing, reliable operations are possible in Z scale.
        Dom
      • Ron Bingham
        True enough, Dom. It¹s also true that if one spends enough money, puts in enough time, does enough design work, and builds enough custom equipment . . .
        Message 3 of 18 , Jul 3, 2011
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          True enough, Dom. It¹s also true that if one spends enough money, puts in
          enough time, does enough design work, and builds enough custom equipment . .
          . walking on the moon is possible. I¹ve come across enough of your old
          posts re turnouts and electromagnets to know that you¹ve been working on
          obtaining reliable operation for some time.

          My point was (and is) that one can buy standard HO or N gauge track and
          equipment, assemble it meticulously and enjoy a layout design where a loco
          can leave its storage track, slowly travel through four turnouts in one
          direction, creep through another four turnouts in the other direction and
          arrive at the yard¹s interchange track reliably over and over again. Unless
          the standard Rokuhan turnouts prove to be as dependable as the hand-built
          Wright turnouts, this will not be the case in Z-scale and, God knows, it¹s
          certainly not the case right now.

          If one potential Z-scale modeler reads the above and decides to build a long
          mainline layout with minimal sidings/spurs, is that not a better outcome for
          Z-scale enthusiasts than to have that same person attempt a multi-turnout
          switching layout and become dissatisfied when it doesn¹t function reliably?

          Peace,

          Ron




          on 7/3/11 5:38 AM, de Champeaux Dominique at ddechamp71@... wrote:

          >
          >> >Thank you for sharing the useful information and video, Dom. THAT is the
          >> >type of operation (times 7.5) that I expected when I plunked down my >money.
          >
          > My pleasure Ron. That proves at least one thing, reliable operations are
          > possible in Z scale.
          > Dom
          >




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Alan Cox
          ... On your layout. Some of us are not having problems. So the question is why are you - what is different about your layout - is it a faulty turnout, is it a
          Message 4 of 18 , Jul 3, 2011
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            > My point was (and is) that one can buy standard HO or N gauge track and
            > equipment, assemble it meticulously and enjoy a layout design where a loco
            > can leave its storage track, slowly travel through four turnouts in one
            > direction, creep through another four turnouts in the other direction and
            > arrive at the yard¹s interchange track reliably over and over again. Unless
            > the standard Rokuhan turnouts prove to be as dependable as the hand-built
            > Wright turnouts, this will not be the case in Z-scale and, God knows, it¹s
            > certainly not the case right now.

            On your layout. Some of us are not having problems. So the question is
            why are you - what is different about your layout - is it a faulty
            turnout, is it a power issue, dirt, poor loco pickup from the MTL loco or
            something else ?

            You need to work out WHY your layout isn't functioning reliably not just
            blame the scale and point fingers randomly.

            The wright turnouts should only matter for small steam locos where (as
            with N) you need electrofrog because of the short wheelbase of the locos.

            (and for the Märklin tender locos whoever didn't fit tender pickups in
            the original really really has a lot to answer for !)

            Alan
          • Ron Bingham
            Alan, It¹s pretty obvious that you are having a difficult time seeing what I¹m seeing and the tone of this exchange is probably growing tedious to forum
            Message 5 of 18 , Jul 3, 2011
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              Alan, It¹s pretty obvious that you are having a difficult time seeing what
              I¹m seeing and the tone of this exchange is probably growing tedious to
              forum members. Let¹s just agree to disagree, Ron



              on 7/3/11 12:30 PM, Alan Cox at alan@... wrote:

              >
              >> > My point was (and is) that one can buy standard HO or N gauge track and
              >> > equipment, assemble it meticulously and enjoy a layout design where a loco
              >> > can leave its storage track, slowly travel through four turnouts in one
              >> > direction, creep through another four turnouts in the other direction and
              >> > arrive at the yard¹s interchange track reliably over and over again.
              >> Unless
              >> > the standard Rokuhan turnouts prove to be as dependable as the hand-built
              >> > Wright turnouts, this will not be the case in Z-scale and, God knows, it¹s
              >> > certainly not the case right now.
              >
              > On your layout. Some of us are not having problems. So the question is
              > why are you - what is different about your layout - is it a faulty
              > turnout, is it a power issue, dirt, poor loco pickup from the MTL loco or
              > something else ?
              >
              > You need to work out WHY your layout isn't functioning reliably not just
              > blame the scale and point fingers randomly.
              >
              > The wright turnouts should only matter for small steam locos where (as
              > with N) you need electrofrog because of the short wheelbase of the locos.
              >
              > (and for the Märklin tender locos whoever didn't fit tender pickups in
              > the original really really has a lot to answer for !)
              >
              > Alan



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • david.davidksmith
              With all due respect, Z Scale is *always* going to be more of a challenge than other scales. The *laws of physics* dictate that good performance will be more
              Message 6 of 18 , Jul 3, 2011
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                With all due respect, Z Scale is *always* going to be more of a challenge than other scales. The *laws of physics* dictate that good performance will be more difficult to achieve. It's not simply a matter of what the manufacturers produce, or what the modelers do with these products; it's a mix of many things.

                As evidenced by videos, superb operation is indeed possible in Z, but it requires much more work. It's simply not possible to shake a box and have a perfect layout pop out. It takes effort, patience and persistence. It requires considerably more focus on specifics, such as assembling the best trackwork possible, keeping it cleaner, and fine-tuning certain components, in particular switches and locomotives.

                Sure, it's possible to produce more reliable Z Scale products, but the price will reflect the greater precision, and it will rise to the point that no one will be able to afford it but a very select few. So, modelers must meet manufacturers halfway. It's unfair to point to other scales and expect Z Scale to perform the same. Likewise, it's unfair to point to manufacturers with expectations that their products must all work flawlessly.

                Bottom line, Z Scale is for those modelers who are willing and ready to work harder to achieve their goals, and is therefore definitely not for beginners. As for those just entering the scale, the last thing one should do is build a large, complex layout as a first effort. The best thing to do is start with a loop on a tabletop, and get used to handling the models. Add a few switches, and experiment some more. After a while, one may be ready to build a small starter layout.

                More than any other scale, Z requires that one walk before they can run. Most of all, if it's not fun meeting the extra challenges it poses, then it's not the right scale in which to work.

                Regards,
                David

                http://davidksmith.com/modeling.htm
              • Garth
                There is a video on u-tube of my 2 x 4 ft module with several loops of track and two cross overs to get from loop to the other. that is 4 switchesand I am
                Message 7 of 18 , Jul 3, 2011
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                  There is a video on u-tube of my 2 x 4 ft module with several loops of track and two cross overs to get from loop to the other. that is 4 switchesand I am using Rokuhan Classic track and I can run either a pair of D51 with a string of 40 freight cars and the Japanese ones are two axle types so very light. or I can run them with 8 passenger cars and the other tains I run are 35 cars from Micro Trains and either a pair of GP35 or SD40-2s and they run through those cross overs all day with no derailments or stalls.I do not run fast but scale 30 pmh. I can use a dingle engine and go through these turnouts without stalling as slow as the Joeger controller will move them is about 35 minutes to travel around the 2 x 4.
                  no hassle putting the track together and fastening it to the homosote base.So fare it exceeds all the other track combinations I have ever used.My second choice is Peco flex with Wright turnouts but it takes much more time to install and get operating. After that hand laid code 40 using material from Fasttracks is even better with Fasttrack jig built switches. but it is a allot of work, but it looks good but it doen't operate any better than the Rokuhan.Aside from that most people don't want to hand lay their track to get the performance they want so Rokuhan so far is the winner on ease of installation and good running ability that I have seen in Z or Nn3. If scale scenes are what you want and a better looking track then Fasttracks is the way to go, but be prepared for a steep learning curve as you start the process of handlaying track and building switches. If you want to run trains then Rokuhan is the answer in my book.

                  cheers Garth

                  --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Alan Cox <alan@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > My point was (and is) that one can buy standard HO or N gauge track and
                  > > equipment, assemble it meticulously and enjoy a layout design where a loco
                  > > can leave its storage track, slowly travel through four turnouts in one
                  > > direction, creep through another four turnouts in the other direction and
                  > > arrive at the yard¹s interchange track reliably over and over again. Unless
                  > > the standard Rokuhan turnouts prove to be as dependable as the hand-built
                  > > Wright turnouts, this will not be the case in Z-scale and, God knows, it¹s
                  > > certainly not the case right now.
                  >
                  > On your layout. Some of us are not having problems. So the question is
                  > why are you - what is different about your layout - is it a faulty
                  > turnout, is it a power issue, dirt, poor loco pickup from the MTL loco or
                  > something else ?
                  >
                  > You need to work out WHY your layout isn't functioning reliably not just
                  > blame the scale and point fingers randomly.
                  >
                  > The wright turnouts should only matter for small steam locos where (as
                  > with N) you need electrofrog because of the short wheelbase of the locos.
                  >
                  > (and for the Märklin tender locos whoever didn't fit tender pickups in
                  > the original really really has a lot to answer for !)
                  >
                  > Alan
                  >
                • reynard wellman
                  Hello David, You are right about needing patience, skill and I might add specialization to build and operate a nice Z scale layout. In a previous note I was
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jul 3, 2011
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                    Hello David,

                    You are right about needing patience, skill and I might add "specialization"
                    to build and operate a nice Z scale layout.

                    In a previous note I was looking into perhaps designing a US style catenary
                    system. It turns out that there are two things wrong with this for
                    me: 1] Marklin already has a complete line of catenary and it does not look
                    that much different from what one might find along the old Eastern US
                    electric railroad lines; 2] Double stack container cars will not clear such
                    a system. So the market for "catenary" also narrows down to a highly
                    specialized and I might add, expensive proposition.

                    So a Z scale US catenary layout should be a separate layout and should
                    use the Marklin materials.

                    Today US electrics (especially subways and elevated trains) use the third rail
                    system anyway, not catenary.

                    We can't be all things to all situations in manufacturing without
                    hitting a quality control issue. Adaptation of existing products and
                    incremental improvements from our own efforts is the way to go.

                    cheerZ,
                    Reynard
                    http://www.micronart.com
                    On Jul 3, 2011, at 2:33 PM, david.davidksmith wrote:

                    > With all due respect, Z Scale is *always* going to be more of a challenge than other scales. The *laws of physics* dictate that good performance will be more difficult to achieve. It's not simply a matter of what the manufacturers produce, or what the modelers do with these products; it's a mix of many things.
                    >
                    > As evidenced by videos, superb operation is indeed possible in Z, but it requires much more work. It's simply not possible to shake a box and have a perfect layout pop out. It takes effort, patience and persistence. It requires considerably more focus on specifics, such as assembling the best trackwork possible, keeping it cleaner, and fine-tuning certain components, in particular switches and locomotives.
                    >
                    > Sure, it's possible to produce more reliable Z Scale products, but the price will reflect the greater precision, and it will rise to the point that no one will be able to afford it but a very select few. So, modelers must meet manufacturers halfway. It's unfair to point to other scales and expect Z Scale to perform the same. Likewise, it's unfair to point to manufacturers with expectations that their products must all work flawlessly.
                    >
                    > Bottom line, Z Scale is for those modelers who are willing and ready to work harder to achieve their goals, and is therefore definitely not for beginners. As for those just entering the scale, the last thing one should do is build a large, complex layout as a first effort. The best thing to do is start with a loop on a tabletop, and get used to handling the models. Add a few switches, and experiment some more. After a while, one may be ready to build a small starter layout.
                    >
                    > More than any other scale, Z requires that one walk before they can run. Most of all, if it's not fun meeting the extra challenges it poses, then it's not the right scale in which to work.
                    >
                    > Regards,
                    > David
                    >
                    > http://davidksmith.com/modeling.htm
                    >
                    >



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Ell
                    ... Z-scale is very small. Dimensions and tolerances must therefore be tighter than in larger scales. Something such as a small misalignment in height where
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jul 3, 2011
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                      --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Bingham" <rebingham@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I'm sure there are group members who don't care for this less-than-happy talk right before a convention, but Z-scale has some issues that need to be fixed. And pretending, or worse, representing that they don't exist is not going to make things better.
                      >

                      Z-scale is very small. Dimensions and tolerances must therefore be tighter than in larger scales. Something such as a small misalignment in height where tracks join may have little effect in HO. That same sized misalignment in Z might cause a derailment. Mass doesn't scale linearly, it scales by volume (thus cubically). Z-scale equipment is very light in weight.

                      While Dom's video clearly shows switching can be done (nice work Dom), taking away the battery load in the gondola might have made the operation trickier as the gondola would have been much lighter. As others have pointed out, a lot of care has to be taken with the track work and the equipment.

                      Ell Geib
                    • Alan Cox
                      On Sun, 3 Jul 2011 15:38:39 -0500 ... Yes its amusing the US has gone the exact reverse direction of everyone else ;) The really different catenary is tramways
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jul 3, 2011
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                        On Sun, 3 Jul 2011 15:38:39 -0500
                        reynard wellman <micron@...> wrote:

                        > Hello David,
                        >
                        > You are right about needing patience, skill and I might add "specialization"
                        > to build and operate a nice Z scale layout.
                        >
                        > Today US electrics (especially subways and elevated trains) use the third rail
                        > system anyway, not catenary.

                        Yes its amusing the US has gone the exact reverse direction of everyone
                        else ;)

                        The really different catenary is tramways (which are a challenge in Z to
                        say the least), and the Japanese stuff which has a very very different
                        look.

                        Alan
                      • Alan Cox
                        ... Z scale track is the same height and thickness as reasonably standard N scale track. Z scale clearances and gauging are the same as in N. That s why out of
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jul 3, 2011
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                          > Z-scale is very small. Dimensions and tolerances must therefore be tighter than in larger scales. Something such as a small misalignment in height where tracks join may have little effect in HO. That same sized misalignment in Z might cause a derailment. Mass doesn't scale linearly, it scales by volume (thus cubically). Z-scale equipment is very light in weight.

                          Z scale track is the same height and thickness as reasonably standard N
                          scale track. Z scale clearances and gauging are the same as in N. That's
                          why out of the box it looks so much like a toy train compared with N.
                          It's a very coarse scale.

                          Mechanically there is little difference between Z and N except the weight
                          - and Märklin in particular used a lot of die casting to get reasonable
                          weights.

                          > While Dom's video clearly shows switching can be done (nice work Dom), taking away the battery load in the gondola might have made the operation trickier as the gondola would have been much lighter. As others have pointed out, a lot of care has to be taken with the track work and the equipment

                          That's not so much a weight issue as a rolling resistance issue -
                          momentumn helps but you have the same basic problem in N because decent
                          quality N generally uses high quality metal pinpoint wheels and so is a
                          similar level of resistance.

                          In both cases judicious tweaking works wonders.

                          Alan
                        • Alan Cox
                          On Sun, 03 Jul 2011 14:54:08 -0400 ... I m happy to disagree with you. However when you try and present that as fact on the list I am going to present the
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jul 3, 2011
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                            On Sun, 03 Jul 2011 14:54:08 -0400
                            Ron Bingham <rebingham@...> wrote:

                            > Alan, It¹s pretty obvious that you are having a difficult time seeing what
                            > I¹m seeing and the tone of this exchange is probably growing tedious to
                            > forum members. Let¹s just agree to disagree, Ron

                            I'm happy to disagree with you.

                            However when you try and present that as 'fact' on the list I am going to
                            present the other viewpoint because I don't want you putting people off Z
                            when its clear Z works or implying you need things like Wright turnouts
                            for diesels when you don't.

                            Alan
                          • Ron Bingham
                            Garth, Thank you for the encouragement. I ordered two Rokuhan turnouts from Z-scaleMonster.com yesterday to try out. I hope they will work as well as they
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jul 3, 2011
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                              Garth,

                              Thank you for the encouragement. I ordered two Rokuhan turnouts from
                              Z-scaleMonster.com yesterday to try out. I hope they will work as well as
                              they have for you. I really don¹t want to invest time and energy in
                              hand-laid track/turnouts. I have spent well in excess of $1000 and over six
                              months of my time of my layout and any angst that has leaked into my
                              comments is a result of my reluctance to have it all be in vain.

                              Best wishes,

                              Ron


                              on 7/3/11 3:34 PM, Garth at garth.a.hamilton@... wrote:

                              >
                              > There is a video on u-tube of my 2 x 4 ft module with several loops of track
                              > and two cross overs to get from loop to the other. that is 4 switchesand I am
                              > using Rokuhan Classic track and I can run either a pair of D51 with a string
                              > of 40 freight cars and the Japanese ones are two axle types so very light. or
                              > I can run them with 8 passenger cars and the other tains I run are 35 cars
                              > from Micro Trains and either a pair of GP35 or SD40-2s and they run through
                              > those cross overs all day with no derailments or stalls.I do not run fast but
                              > scale 30 pmh. I can use a dingle engine and go through these turnouts without
                              > stalling as slow as the Joeger controller will move them is about 35 minutes
                              > to travel around the 2 x 4.
                              > no hassle putting the track together and fastening it to the homosote base.So
                              > fare it exceeds all the other track combinations I have ever used.My second
                              > choice is Peco flex with Wright turnouts but it takes much more time to
                              > install and get operating. After that hand laid code 40 using material from
                              > Fasttracks is even better with Fasttrack jig built switches. but it is a allot
                              > of work, but it looks good but it doen't operate any better than the
                              > Rokuhan.Aside from that most people don't want to hand lay their track to get
                              > the performance they want so Rokuhan so far is the winner on ease of
                              > installation and good running ability that I have seen in Z or Nn3. If scale
                              > scenes are what you want and a better looking track then Fasttracks is the way
                              > to go, but be prepared for a steep learning curve as you start the process of
                              > handlaying track and building switches. If you want to run trains then Rokuhan
                              > is the answer in my book.
                              >
                              > cheers Garth
                              >
                              > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com <mailto:z_scale%40yahoogroups.com> , Alan Cox
                              > <alan@...> wrote:
                              >> >
                              >>> > > My point was (and is) that one can buy standard HO or N gauge track and
                              >>> > > equipment, assemble it meticulously and enjoy a layout design where a
                              >>> loco
                              >>> > > can leave its storage track, slowly travel through four turnouts in one
                              >>> > > direction, creep through another four turnouts in the other direction
                              and
                              >>> > > arrive at the yard¹s interchange track reliably over and over again.
                              >>> Unless
                              >>> > > the standard Rokuhan turnouts prove to be as dependable as the
                              >>> hand-built
                              >>> > > Wright turnouts, this will not be the case in Z-scale and, God knows,
                              >>> it¹s
                              >>> > > certainly not the case right now.
                              >> >
                              >> > On your layout. Some of us are not having problems. So the question is
                              >> > why are you - what is different about your layout - is it a faulty
                              >> > turnout, is it a power issue, dirt, poor loco pickup from the MTL loco or
                              >> > something else ?
                              >> >
                              >> > You need to work out WHY your layout isn't functioning reliably not just
                              >> > blame the scale and point fingers randomly.
                              >> >
                              >> > The wright turnouts should only matter for small steam locos where (as
                              >> > with N) you need electrofrog because of the short wheelbase of the locos.
                              >> >
                              >> > (and for the Märklin tender locos whoever didn't fit tender pickups in
                              >> > the original really really has a lot to answer for !)
                              >> >
                              >> > Alan
                              >> >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > .
                              >
                              >
                              >




                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Alex
                              Ron, I will echo Garth s and David s comments and praise for the Rokuhan product. And, you choose a great vendor to buy from (Anthony of Z Scale Monster is a
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jul 3, 2011
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                                Ron,

                                I will echo Garth's and David's comments and praise for the Rokuhan product. And, you choose a great vendor to buy from (Anthony of Z Scale Monster is a great guy and a honest seller).

                                Please keep in mind, the Rokuhan turn-outs are power-routing, not power everywhere.

                                If you are at all dissatisfied with your Rokuhan turn-outs... let me know and I will buy them from you (as long as the are not broken from a manufacturing defects). I do not work for Rokuhan, but I support their product and efforts 100%.

                                Alex


                                --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Ron Bingham <rebingham@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Garth,
                                >
                                > Thank you for the encouragement. I ordered two Rokuhan turnouts from
                                > Z-scaleMonster.com yesterday to try out. I hope they will work as well as
                                > they have for you. I really don¹t want to invest time and energy in
                                > hand-laid track/turnouts. I have spent well in excess of $1000 and over six
                                > months of my time of my layout and any angst that has leaked into my
                                > comments is a result of my reluctance to have it all be in vain.
                                >
                                > Best wishes,
                                >
                                > Ron
                              • Ron Bingham
                                Hello again Garth, I deleted what follows from my original response to your message as I felt the subject was probably getting beat to death. On second
                                Message 15 of 18 , Jul 3, 2011
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                                  Hello again Garth,

                                  I deleted what follows from my original response to your message as I felt
                                  the subject was probably getting beat to death. On second thought, it
                                  occurred to me that some members ­ along with Alan - might be thinking:
                                  what it is with this guy!!! . . . my layout runs just fine . . . he¹s got to
                                  be doing something wrong!!!!

                                  99% of the Z-scale videos I see show pikes with long mainlines and a siding
                                  or two with maybe 4 or 5 turnouts on the ³continuously operational portion²
                                  of the railroad.

                                  My layout- and had I known last December what I know now, I would NOT have
                                  done this ­ has numerous turnouts/crossovers to be traversed several times
                                  during a normal operating session. My MTL GP-9 must cross 8
                                  turnouts/crossovers ­ 4 in each direction ­ to pick up cars from the
                                  interchange track to begin each session. The loco and cars must then
                                  recross 8 turnovers ­ 4 in each direction ­ to set out cars for local
                                  switching. The remaining consist must cross 6 turnovers over the next 12
                                  feet (Alan and I agree on the non-metric system) to reach the yard at the
                                  other end of the short-line railroad. There are 7 turnovers at that yard
                                  which must be crossed/re-crossed to set out /pick up cars for the return
                                  trip.

                                  Aside from Frank Bergmans¹ video of his hand-laid, 6-turnout switching
                                  layout utilizing electromagnets, I have not seen a Z-scale layout in
                                  operation which comes anywhere close to this type of operation. And that¹s
                                  why I think I made a big mistake, of which maybe Rokuhan will bail me out if
                                  I get lucky.

                                  Prosit,

                                  Ron



                                  Garth,

                                  Thank you for the encouragement. I ordered two Rokuhan turnouts from
                                  Z-scaleMonster.com yesterday to try out. I hope they will work as well as
                                  they have for you. I really don¹t want to invest time and energy in
                                  hand-laid track/turnouts. I have spent well in excess of $1000 and over six
                                  months of my time of my layout and any angst that has leaked into my
                                  comments is a result of my reluctance to have it all be in vain.

                                  Best wishes,

                                  Ron


                                  on 7/3/11 3:34 PM, Garth at garth.a.hamilton@... wrote:

                                  >
                                  > There is a video on u-tube of my 2 x 4 ft module with several loops of track
                                  > and two cross overs to get from loop to the other. that is 4 switchesand I am
                                  > using Rokuhan Classic track and I can run either a pair of D51 with a string
                                  > of 40 freight cars and the Japanese ones are two axle types so very light. or
                                  > I can run them with 8 passenger cars and the other tains I run are 35 cars
                                  > from Micro Trains and either a pair of GP35 or SD40-2s and they run through
                                  > those cross overs all day with no derailments or stalls.I do not run fast but
                                  > scale 30 pmh. I can use a dingle engine and go through these turnouts without
                                  > stalling as slow as the Joeger controller will move them is about 35 minutes
                                  > to travel around the 2 x 4.
                                  > no hassle putting the track together and fastening it to the homosote base.So
                                  > fare it exceeds all the other track combinations I have ever used.My second
                                  > choice is Peco flex with Wright turnouts but it takes much more time to
                                  > install and get operating. After that hand laid code 40 using material from
                                  > Fasttracks is even better with Fasttrack jig built switches. but it is a allot
                                  > of work, but it looks good but it doen't operate any better than the
                                  > Rokuhan.Aside from that most people don't want to hand lay their track to get
                                  > the performance they want so Rokuhan so far is the winner on ease of
                                  > installation and good running ability that I have seen in Z or Nn3. If scale
                                  > scenes are what you want and a better looking track then Fasttracks is the way
                                  > to go, but be prepared for a steep learning curve as you start the process of
                                  > handlaying track and building switches. If you want to run trains then Rokuhan
                                  > is the answer in my book.
                                  >
                                  > cheers Garth
                                  >
                                  > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com <mailto:z_scale%40yahoogroups.com> , Alan Cox
                                  > <alan@...> wrote:
                                  >> >
                                  >>> > > My point was (and is) that one can buy standard HO or N gauge track and
                                  >>> > > equipment, assemble it meticulously and enjoy a layout design where a
                                  >>> loco
                                  >>> > > can leave its storage track, slowly travel through four turnouts in one
                                  >>> > > direction, creep through another four turnouts in the other direction
                                  and
                                  >>> > > arrive at the yard¹s interchange track reliably over and over again.
                                  >>> Unless
                                  >>> > > the standard Rokuhan turnouts prove to be as dependable as the
                                  >>> hand-built
                                  >>> > > Wright turnouts, this will not be the case in Z-scale and, God knows,
                                  >>> it¹s
                                  >>> > > certainly not the case right now.
                                  >> >
                                  >> > On your layout. Some of us are not having problems. So the question is
                                  >> > why are you - what is different about your layout - is it a faulty
                                  >> > turnout, is it a power issue, dirt, poor loco pickup from the MTL loco or
                                  >> > something else ?
                                  >> >
                                  >> > You need to work out WHY your layout isn't functioning reliably not just
                                  >> > blame the scale and point fingers randomly.
                                  >> >
                                  >> > The wright turnouts should only matter for small steam locos where (as
                                  >> > with N) you need electrofrog because of the short wheelbase of the locos.
                                  >> >
                                  >> > (and for the Märklin tender locos whoever didn't fit tender pickups in
                                  >> > the original really really has a lot to answer for !)
                                  >> >
                                  >> > Alan
                                  >> >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > .
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >




                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Ron Bingham
                                  Turnovers???!!!! I¹ve got to stop posting late at night when I¹m hungry. ... where a ... in one ... again. ... knows, ... or ... just ... [Non-text portions
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Jul 4, 2011
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                                    Turnovers???!!!! I¹ve got to stop posting late at night when I¹m hungry.



                                    on 7/3/11 11:07 PM, Ron Bingham at rebingham@... wrote:

                                    >
                                    > Hello again Garth,
                                    >
                                    > I deleted what follows from my original response to your message as I felt
                                    > the subject was probably getting beat to death. On second thought, it
                                    > occurred to me that some members ­ along with Alan - might be thinking:
                                    > what it is with this guy!!! . . . my layout runs just fine . . . he¹s got to
                                    > be doing something wrong!!!!
                                    >
                                    > 99% of the Z-scale videos I see show pikes with long mainlines and a siding
                                    > or two with maybe 4 or 5 turnouts on the ³continuously operational portion²
                                    > of the railroad.
                                    >
                                    > My layout- and had I known last December what I know now, I would NOT have
                                    > done this ­ has numerous turnouts/crossovers to be traversed several times
                                    > during a normal operating session. My MTL GP-9 must cross 8
                                    > turnouts/crossovers ­ 4 in each direction ­ to pick up cars from the
                                    > interchange track to begin each session. The loco and cars must then
                                    > recross 8 turnovers ­ 4 in each direction ­ to set out cars for local
                                    > switching. The remaining consist must cross 6 turnovers over the next 12
                                    > feet (Alan and I agree on the non-metric system) to reach the yard at the
                                    > other end of the short-line railroad. There are 7 turnovers at that yard
                                    > which must be crossed/re-crossed to set out /pick up cars for the return
                                    > trip.
                                    >
                                    > Aside from Frank Bergmans¹ video of his hand-laid, 6-turnout switching
                                    > layout utilizing electromagnets, I have not seen a Z-scale layout in
                                    > operation which comes anywhere close to this type of operation. And that¹s
                                    > why I think I made a big mistake, of which maybe Rokuhan will bail me out if
                                    > I get lucky.
                                    >
                                    > Prosit,
                                    >
                                    > Ron
                                    >
                                    > Garth,
                                    >
                                    > Thank you for the encouragement. I ordered two Rokuhan turnouts from
                                    > Z-scaleMonster.com yesterday to try out. I hope they will work as well as
                                    > they have for you. I really don¹t want to invest time and energy in
                                    > hand-laid track/turnouts. I have spent well in excess of $1000 and over six
                                    > months of my time of my layout and any angst that has leaked into my
                                    > comments is a result of my reluctance to have it all be in vain.
                                    >
                                    > Best wishes,
                                    >
                                    > Ron
                                    >
                                    > on 7/3/11 3:34 PM, Garth at garth.a.hamilton@...
                                    > <mailto:garth.a.hamilton%40gmail.com> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >> >
                                    >> > There is a video on u-tube of my 2 x 4 ft module with several loops of
                                    >> track
                                    >> > and two cross overs to get from loop to the other. that is 4 switchesand I
                                    >> am
                                    >> > using Rokuhan Classic track and I can run either a pair of D51 with a
                                    >> string
                                    >> > of 40 freight cars and the Japanese ones are two axle types so very light.
                                    >> or
                                    >> > I can run them with 8 passenger cars and the other tains I run are 35 cars
                                    >> > from Micro Trains and either a pair of GP35 or SD40-2s and they run through
                                    >> > those cross overs all day with no derailments or stalls.I do not run fast
                                    >> but
                                    >> > scale 30 pmh. I can use a dingle engine and go through these turnouts
                                    >> without
                                    >> > stalling as slow as the Joeger controller will move them is about 35
                                    >> minutes
                                    >> > to travel around the 2 x 4.
                                    >> > no hassle putting the track together and fastening it to the homosote
                                    >> base.So
                                    >> > fare it exceeds all the other track combinations I have ever used.My second
                                    >> > choice is Peco flex with Wright turnouts but it takes much more time to
                                    >> > install and get operating. After that hand laid code 40 using material from
                                    >> > Fasttracks is even better with Fasttrack jig built switches. but it is a
                                    >> allot
                                    >> > of work, but it looks good but it doen't operate any better than the
                                    >> > Rokuhan.Aside from that most people don't want to hand lay their track to
                                    >> get
                                    >> > the performance they want so Rokuhan so far is the winner on ease of
                                    >> > installation and good running ability that I have seen in Z or Nn3. If
                                    >> scale
                                    >> > scenes are what you want and a better looking track then Fasttracks is the
                                    >> way
                                    >> > to go, but be prepared for a steep learning curve as you start the process
                                    >> of
                                    >> > handlaying track and building switches. If you want to run trains then
                                    >> Rokuhan
                                    >> > is the answer in my book.
                                    >> >
                                    >> > cheers Garth
                                    >> >
                                    >> > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com <mailto:z_scale%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    >> <mailto:z_scale%40yahoogroups.com> , Alan Cox
                                    >> > <alan@...> wrote:
                                    >>>> >> >
                                    >>>>>> >>> > > My point was (and is) that one can buy standard HO or N gauge
                                    >>>>>> track and
                                    >>>>>> >>> > > equipment, assemble it meticulously and enjoy a layout design
                                    where a
                                    >>>> >>> loco
                                    >>>>>> >>> > > can leave its storage track, slowly travel through four turnouts
                                    in one
                                    >>>>>> >>> > > direction, creep through another four turnouts in the other
                                    >>>>>> direction
                                    > and
                                    >>>>>> >>> > > arrive at the yard¹s interchange track reliably over and over
                                    again.
                                    >>>> >>> Unless
                                    >>>>>> >>> > > the standard Rokuhan turnouts prove to be as dependable as the
                                    >>>> >>> hand-built
                                    >>>>>> >>> > > Wright turnouts, this will not be the case in Z-scale and, God
                                    knows,
                                    >>>> >>> it¹s
                                    >>>>>> >>> > > certainly not the case right now.
                                    >>>> >> >
                                    >>>> >> > On your layout. Some of us are not having problems. So the question is
                                    >>>> >> > why are you - what is different about your layout - is it a faulty
                                    >>>> >> > turnout, is it a power issue, dirt, poor loco pickup from the MTL loco
                                    or
                                    >>>> >> > something else ?
                                    >>>> >> >
                                    >>>> >> > You need to work out WHY your layout isn't functioning reliably not
                                    just
                                    >>>> >> > blame the scale and point fingers randomly.
                                    >>>> >> >
                                    >>>> >> > The wright turnouts should only matter for small steam locos where (as
                                    >>>> >> > with N) you need electrofrog because of the short wheelbase of the
                                    >>>> locos.
                                    >>>> >> >
                                    >>>> >> > (and for the Märklin tender locos whoever didn't fit tender pickups in
                                    >>>> >> > the original really really has a lot to answer for !)
                                    >>>> >> >
                                    >>>> >> > Alan
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >




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