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Re: [Z_Scale] A little history

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  • Tomas Dickinson
    i wouldnt make fun of the APTE, it is one of the greatest of the not so greats.... In gest, tomas.   ________________________________ From: Melissa Cull
    Message 1 of 30 , Sep 30, 2010
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      i wouldnt make fun of the APTE, it is one of the greatest of the not so
      greats....

      In gest, tomas.

       



      ________________________________
      From: Melissa Cull <melissa.cull@...>
      To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thu, 30 September, 2010 7:47:54 PM
      Subject: RE: [Z_Scale] A little history

       
      Hi Arnim,

      Thanks for the info on the Railex items, wonder if it could be motorized:-)

      I've got a great timeline poster with all those locomotives on right up to the
      flopped APTE......

      Kind RegardZ

      Melissa
      UK
      -----Original Message-----
      From: z_scale@yahoogroups.com [mailto:z_scale@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Arnim
      v. Herff
      Sent: 29 September 2010 23:32
      To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] A little history

      Am Montag, 27. September 2010 17:34:12 schrieb Melissa Cull:
      > Would love to see that working in Z Scale! Didn't Railex do a working
      > Stephenson's Rocket in Z Scale?

      No problem posting inf... Ooops. web page by Railex is not really working, but
      on other hand not really dead: http://www.railex.de/neu04.htm

      OK! Here we go.
      In 2004 Railex announced a set "Rainhill Trials" in Z- and N-scale containig
      the Rocket by Stepenson, the Sans Pareil by Hackworth and the Novelty by
      Braithwaite and Ericsson. The models are not motorized. The set is (was?)
      available fullcoloured or in pure brass. Additionally is offered a
      passenger-train with one open and two closed cars. One of the closed contains
      a motor. And a freight with two open and one boxed car. The later one
      contains a motor.

      I did not found a web-site containig pictures. But if you will use the
      picture-search by Google, you'll get the pictures of the above mentioned page
      in using terms "railex stephenson" as first results.

      Hope this helps.

      Greetings Arnim

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • de Champeaux Dominique
      Joining my voice with Garth s, I should add I m a little bit surprised that most Z scale manufacturers don t consider powering the tender rather than the loco
      Message 2 of 30 , Oct 2, 2010
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        Joining my voice with Garth's, I should add I'm a little bit surprised that most Z scale manufacturers don't consider powering the tender rather than the loco itself. Let's face it: it's quite rare for a steamer to move without its tender, if ever, and if we consider north american prototype many steamers were matched with a pretty big tender, maybe as tall as a F7 diesel loco. Starting from there it would be easy to power the tender shouldn't be?
         
        Dom
         
         


        --- En date de : Ven 1.10.10, Garth <garth.a.hamilton@...> a écrit :


        De: Garth <garth.a.hamilton@...>
        Objet: [Z_Scale] Re: A little history
        À: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Vendredi 1 octobre 2010, 14h34


         





        --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Alan Cox <alan@...> wrote:

        > snip
        > I don't hold out much hope for steam in Z with current technology. The
        > motors are too big for almost any steam, but a bigger problem would be
        > the connecting rods and valve gear. In N doing them roughly
        > prototypically is on the limit of acceptable robustness, in Z most of
        > them are very oversize, snip
        >
        > Alan
        >

        Alan

        Have you seen the Tenshodo D51 Mikado in Z?
        and there is a C62 Hudson on its way as well.

        cheerz Garth











        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Rick Saviano
        I can only speak from my grandson s experience with motorized Thomas the Tank Engine (actually, it was Emily that caused the problems) where the tenders
        Message 3 of 30 , Oct 2, 2010
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          I can only speak from my grandson's experience with motorized Thomas
          the Tank Engine (actually, it was Emily that caused the problems) where
          the tenders pushed the engines off the track. I supposed if Emily was
          weighted enough, it wouldn't have jumped the tracks, but it would have
          made a pretty lethal preschool weapon.

          - Rick Saviano

          On 10/2/2010 7:54 AM, Alan Cox wrote:

          > On Sat, 2 Oct 2010 13:22:53 +0100 (BST)
          > de Champeaux Dominique<ddechamp71@...> wrote:
          >
          >> Joining my voice with Garth's, I should add I'm a little bit surprised that most Z scale manufacturers don't consider powering the tender rather than the loco itself.
          > It's been tried with varying success in other scales.
          >
        • Alan Cox
          On Sat, 2 Oct 2010 13:22:53 +0100 (BST) ... It s been tried with varying success in other scales. The latest Bachmann N gauge UK outline models use a tender
          Message 4 of 30 , Oct 2, 2010
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            On Sat, 2 Oct 2010 13:22:53 +0100 (BST)
            de Champeaux Dominique <ddechamp71@...> wrote:

            > Joining my voice with Garth's, I should add I'm a little bit surprised that most Z scale manufacturers don't consider powering the tender rather than the loco itself. Let's face it: it's quite rare for a steamer to move without its tender, if ever, and if we consider north american prototype many steamers were matched with a pretty big tender, maybe as tall as a F7 diesel loco. Starting from there it would be easy to power the tender shouldn't be?

            It's been tried with varying success in other scales. The latest Bachmann
            N gauge UK outline models use a tender drive but this requires the
            locomotive itself is well weighted, extremely free wheeling, the wheels
            are almost perfectly round and the quartering right - otherwise the
            locomotive tends to skid down the track which looks seriously silly.

            Another approach that would also fit Z and is used is to put the motor in
            the tender and a drive shaft from it into the locomotive to the gearing
            and wheels. That lets you use a bigger motor (or flywheel), and avoids
            the problems with skidding while allowing you to put a lot of weight over
            the drive axles.

            Not yet seen anything that drives both.

            For custom stuff there are other tricks one of which is to power small
            locomotives with a tiny micromotor so it's not really able to haul much
            but itself (and tender if relevant) around but to hide a decent motor in
            a passenger coach or wagon. It can then run around trains, do a little
            shunting and apparently haul large trains, the latter work really being
            done by the hidden motor for the most part.
          • Melissa Cull
            Hi Tomas, I wasn t really making fun of the APTE as it was the forerunner to the Pendilino trains useed by Virgin Trains that are nice and smooth running. Like
            Message 5 of 30 , Oct 4, 2010
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              Hi Tomas,

              I wasn't really making fun of the APTE as it was the forerunner to the Pendilino trains useed by Virgin Trains that are nice and smooth running.

              Like the Ford Capri and my favourite sports car the beautiful E-Type Jaguar- a little ahead of it's time when technology wasn't quite there:-)

              Kind RegardZ

              Melissa
              UK

              -----Original Message-----
              From: z_scale@yahoogroups.com [mailto:z_scale@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Tomas Dickinson
              Sent: 30 September 2010 10:57
              To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] A little history



              i wouldnt make fun of the APTE, it is one of the greatest of the not so
              greats....

              In gest, tomas.



              ________________________________
              From: Melissa Cull <melissa.cull@...>
              To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, 30 September, 2010 7:47:54 PM
              Subject: RE: [Z_Scale] A little history


              Hi Arnim,

              Thanks for the info on the Railex items, wonder if it could be motorized:-)

              I've got a great timeline poster with all those locomotives on right up to the
              flopped APTE......

              Kind RegardZ

              Melissa
              UK
              -----Original Message-----
              From: z_scale@yahoogroups.com [mailto:z_scale@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Arnim
              v. Herff
              Sent: 29 September 2010 23:32
              To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] A little history

              Am Montag, 27. September 2010 17:34:12 schrieb Melissa Cull:
              > Would love to see that working in Z Scale! Didn't Railex do a working
              > Stephenson's Rocket in Z Scale?

              No problem posting inf... Ooops. web page by Railex is not really working, but
              on other hand not really dead: http://www.railex.de/neu04.htm

              OK! Here we go.
              In 2004 Railex announced a set "Rainhill Trials" in Z- and N-scale containig
              the Rocket by Stepenson, the Sans Pareil by Hackworth and the Novelty by
              Braithwaite and Ericsson. The models are not motorized. The set is (was?)
              available fullcoloured or in pure brass. Additionally is offered a
              passenger-train with one open and two closed cars. One of the closed contains
              a motor. And a freight with two open and one boxed car. The later one
              contains a motor.

              I did not found a web-site containig pictures. But if you will use the
              picture-search by Google, you'll get the pictures of the above mentioned page
              in using terms "railex stephenson" as first results.

              Hope this helps.

              Greetings Arnim

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Melissa Cull
              Hi Alan, Fabulous thanks for the UK T gauge link. Parts, chassis and even a UK brass loco kit - wow! I wish someone would sell parts like that for Z Scale for
              Message 6 of 30 , Oct 7, 2010
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                Hi Alan,

                Fabulous thanks for the UK T gauge link. Parts, chassis and even a UK brass
                loco kit - wow! I wish someone would sell parts like that for Z Scale for
                scratch and kit building rather than having to buy a whole new / second hand
                loco and chop it up.

                If as with any other scale manufacturers brought out etched super detailing
                kits in Z then we could have wonderful more to scale steam connecting rods
                and details. I see BLMA do super detailing for USA diesel locos and
                MicronArt do some ladders and brake wheels for wagons.

                As the Japanese being so dextrous with tiny weeny technology have brought
                out T Scale I can see them doing more in Z Scale too.

                Nano technology will break new boundries in tiny models eventually. Look
                what Willard White can do in the eye of a needle - truly stunning but
                totally impractical unless you have a mega expensive microscope to view.

                Overall Z scale still has better scale looking models than much UK N and OO
                scale. Modelling also in British N Scale and O Scale and an occasional
                dabble in OO scale - standards between manufacturers are so variable. I like
                to super detail proprietery, kitbash and scratchbuild to get what I want but
                I'm not a rivet counter more like art perspective if it looks right it is
                right.

                Kind RegardZ

                Melissa
                UK

                -----Original Message-----
                From: z_scale@yahoogroups.com [mailto:z_scale@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
                Alan Cox
                Sent: 01 October 2010 10:18
                To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] A little history



                See www.tgauge.co.uk

                They are UK based and sell all the chassis and parts including bogies etc
                for hacking up your own stuff. Note that for standard gauge the scale
                should be 1:480 and some people use it for that - so its even smaller than
                you might think - just under half Z.

                I don't hold out much hope for steam in Z with current technology. The
                motors are too big for almost any steam, but a bigger problem would be
                the connecting rods and valve gear. In N doing them roughly
                prototypically is on the limit of acceptable robustness, in Z most of
                them are very oversize, and in T you'd probably need materials out of a
                NASA lab !

                I'm surprised we've not seen any US style T stuff yet - the big bogie
                locos, and long bogie wagons are well suited to it.

                Alan



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Alan Cox
                ... You can make stainless steel rods easily enough - various companies like PPD will do etching for people on a small scale. For fine crankpins and the like
                Message 7 of 30 , Oct 7, 2010
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                  > kits in Z then we could have wonderful more to scale steam connecting rods
                  > and details. I see BLMA do super detailing for USA diesel locos and

                  You can make stainless steel rods easily enough - various companies like
                  PPD will do etching for people on a small scale. For fine crankpins and
                  the like the 2mm Scale Association ones are about the finest I know of in
                  the UK but sold to members only.

                  > As the Japanese being so dextrous with tiny weeny technology have brought
                  > out T Scale I can see them doing more in Z Scale too.

                  T is extremely crude in terms of rail and wheel standards, physics pretty
                  much demands it. Also no steamers not likely to be any for a while -
                  although I'd love to be proven wrong.

                  > Overall Z scale still has better scale looking models than much UK N and OO
                  > scale.

                  Most of my work is in N doing things like detailing work. The modern UK N
                  gauge is generally within a whisker of perfect scale and vastly superior
                  to any Z I've seen where certain vendors seem to have trouble even getting
                  the trucks the right length or in another vendors case in the right place.

                  So as a ruler wielding, photo analysing, running around with a tape
                  measure and rivet counting modeller - I'd disagree - although I'm not
                  sure it matters vastly providing you are careful with the trackwork. At
                  human viewing (as opposed to digicam from six inches) Z done nicely
                  creates wonderful 'train in landscape' vistas in very small spaces.

                  T track on the other hand is really hard to hide because of the relative
                  coarseness. It's great narrow gauge track but hard to use for its
                  intended purpose.

                  Alan
                • mark2playz
                  Alan, After seeing the MTL operation in Oregon, western labor doesn t have to be expensive labor. I was amazed at amount of quality manufacturing they do
                  Message 8 of 30 , Oct 7, 2010
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                    Alan,
                    After seeing the MTL operation in Oregon, western labor doesn't have to be expensive labor. I was amazed at amount of quality manufacturing they do in-house while still keeping prices low. I think the costs are determined more by smart management than cheap labor.
                    I agree that I don't mind paying for a reasonable mark-up for western labor costs...the job I save just might be my own!

                    Mark

                    --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Alan Cox <alan@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > On another topic about the prices for N scale vs Z scale,
                    > > there is another reason Z equipment can be slightly higher:
                    > > Engineering and assembly labor.
                    >
                    > And also the fact a lot of that labour is done in Western countries at
                    > higher cost. Personally that makes me somewhat happier even if my bank
                    > manager disagrees.
                    >
                    > And with the strikes in China, rapid wage rises and the pending trade war
                    > with the USA the pricing margin may well narrow quite a bit.
                    >
                    > Alan
                    >
                  • mark2playz
                    ... Hi Melissa, I ve had the opportunity to watch the ladies at MTL assembling the couplers (I think there is a video on youtube from the Z scale convention).
                    Message 9 of 30 , Oct 7, 2010
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                      --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Melissa Cull" <melissa.cull@...> wrote:
                      > ...
                      > I'd like the job in the MTL factory assembling all the tiny components,
                      > after working with assembling Suface Mount Devices (SMD / SMT) electronics Z
                      > scale is big - so very relaxing:-)
                      Hi Melissa,

                      I've had the opportunity to watch the ladies at MTL assembling the couplers (I think there is a video on youtube from the Z scale convention). Spend an afternoon doing that and I think you'd go running back to SMD.

                      Mark
                    • Melissa Cull
                      Hi Mark, I also used to do very tiny fiddly engineering and electronic assembly work before SMD work. As long as you do varied batches of work then its not too
                      Message 10 of 30 , Oct 8, 2010
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                        Hi Mark,

                        I also used to do very tiny fiddly engineering and electronic assembly work
                        before SMD work. As long as you do varied batches of work then its not too
                        monotonous and is quite theraputic. Unlike working with research computers
                        all day on clinical auditing databases. Developing databases is fine, data
                        entry is mind numbing - give me practical any day.

                        If MTL or Marklin had a UK manufacturing place or UK out working then I'd be
                        applying for a job faster than a steaming train:-)

                        Kind RegardZ

                        Melissa
                        UK





                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: z_scale@yahoogroups.com [mailto:z_scale@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
                        mark2playz
                        Sent: 07 October 2010 18:58
                        To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: A little history





                        --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Melissa Cull" <melissa.cull@...> wrote:
                        > ...
                        > I'd like the job in the MTL factory assembling all the tiny components,
                        > after working with assembling Suface Mount Devices (SMD / SMT)
                        electronics Z
                        > scale is big - so very relaxing:-)
                        Hi Melissa,

                        I've had the opportunity to watch the ladies at MTL assembling the
                        couplers (I think there is a video on youtube from the Z scale convention).
                        Spend an afternoon doing that and I think you'd go running back to SMD.

                        Mark






                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Melissa Cull
                        Hi Alan, I ve seen the 2mm scale Association items at exhibitions very nice. I was going to go down that route until I found Z Scale. I can see T scale is
                        Message 11 of 30 , Oct 8, 2010
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                          Hi Alan,

                          I've seen the 2mm scale Association items at exhibitions very nice. I was
                          going to go down that route until I found Z Scale.

                          I can see T scale is crude for it's scale but should make reasonable Narrow
                          Gauge in Z scale or even as a model garden train O scale. Can always put
                          finer wheels on etc.

                          I only rivet count in O scale or above as you can really see them in that
                          scale, especially on my scratchbuilt Sentinal Steam Shunter I'm building in
                          nickel silver and brass- real thing looks like a chain driven riveted metal
                          shed on wheels:-)

                          In smaller scales as with larger I measure thrice, cut once and like to be
                          as accurate as my eyesight allows.

                          Kind RegardZ

                          Melissa
                          UK




                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: z_scale@yahoogroups.com [mailto:z_scale@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
                          Alan Cox
                          Sent: 07 October 2010 17:18
                          To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] A little history



                          > kits in Z then we could have wonderful more to scale steam connecting
                          rods
                          > and details. I see BLMA do super detailing for USA diesel locos and

                          You can make stainless steel rods easily enough - various companies like
                          PPD will do etching for people on a small scale. For fine crankpins and
                          the like the 2mm Scale Association ones are about the finest I know of in
                          the UK but sold to members only.

                          > As the Japanese being so dextrous with tiny weeny technology have
                          brought
                          > out T Scale I can see them doing more in Z Scale too.

                          T is extremely crude in terms of rail and wheel standards, physics pretty
                          much demands it. Also no steamers not likely to be any for a while -
                          although I'd love to be proven wrong.

                          > Overall Z scale still has better scale looking models than much UK N and
                          OO
                          > scale.

                          Most of my work is in N doing things like detailing work. The modern UK N
                          gauge is generally within a whisker of perfect scale and vastly superior
                          to any Z I've seen where certain vendors seem to have trouble even getting
                          the trucks the right length or in another vendors case in the right place.

                          So as a ruler wielding, photo analysing, running around with a tape
                          measure and rivet counting modeller - I'd disagree - although I'm not
                          sure it matters vastly providing you are careful with the trackwork. At
                          human viewing (as opposed to digicam from six inches) Z done nicely
                          creates wonderful 'train in landscape' vistas in very small spaces.

                          T track on the other hand is really hard to hide because of the relative
                          coarseness. It's great narrow gauge track but hard to use for its
                          intended purpose.

                          Alan





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • mark2playz
                          ... Actually, I think you would. Having had the opportunity to visit the MTL factory, I had some thoughts of putting in a job application myself. Many of the
                          Message 12 of 30 , Oct 8, 2010
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                            --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Melissa Cull" <melissa.cull@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > ...If MTL or Marklin had a UK manufacturing place or UK out working then I'd be
                            > applying for a job faster than a steaming train:-)
                            >
                            > Kind RegardZ
                            >
                            > Melissa
                            > UK

                            Actually, I think you would. Having had the opportunity to visit the MTL factory, I had some thoughts of putting in a job application myself. Many of the techniques they use today, I used in IC manufacturing in the 90s.

                            Mark
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