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Re: [Z_Scale] A little history

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  • Tomas Dickinson
    i wouldnt make fun of the APTE, it is one of the greatest of the not so greats.... In gest, tomas.   ________________________________ From: Melissa Cull
    Message 1 of 30 , Sep 30 2:56 AM
      i wouldnt make fun of the APTE, it is one of the greatest of the not so
      greats....

      In gest, tomas.

       



      ________________________________
      From: Melissa Cull <melissa.cull@...>
      To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thu, 30 September, 2010 7:47:54 PM
      Subject: RE: [Z_Scale] A little history

       
      Hi Arnim,

      Thanks for the info on the Railex items, wonder if it could be motorized:-)

      I've got a great timeline poster with all those locomotives on right up to the
      flopped APTE......

      Kind RegardZ

      Melissa
      UK
      -----Original Message-----
      From: z_scale@yahoogroups.com [mailto:z_scale@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Arnim
      v. Herff
      Sent: 29 September 2010 23:32
      To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] A little history

      Am Montag, 27. September 2010 17:34:12 schrieb Melissa Cull:
      > Would love to see that working in Z Scale! Didn't Railex do a working
      > Stephenson's Rocket in Z Scale?

      No problem posting inf... Ooops. web page by Railex is not really working, but
      on other hand not really dead: http://www.railex.de/neu04.htm

      OK! Here we go.
      In 2004 Railex announced a set "Rainhill Trials" in Z- and N-scale containig
      the Rocket by Stepenson, the Sans Pareil by Hackworth and the Novelty by
      Braithwaite and Ericsson. The models are not motorized. The set is (was?)
      available fullcoloured or in pure brass. Additionally is offered a
      passenger-train with one open and two closed cars. One of the closed contains
      a motor. And a freight with two open and one boxed car. The later one
      contains a motor.

      I did not found a web-site containig pictures. But if you will use the
      picture-search by Google, you'll get the pictures of the above mentioned page
      in using terms "railex stephenson" as first results.

      Hope this helps.

      Greetings Arnim

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • reynard wellman
      Hi Garth, I agree, the Tenshodo locomotives are superb given that they are also affordable Z scale steam locomotives. Over the years I have received photos of
      Message 2 of 30 , Oct 1, 2010
        Hi Garth,
        I agree, the Tenshodo locomotives are superb given that
        they are also affordable Z scale steam locomotives.

        Over the years I have received photos of some of
        our kits that have been super-detailed by very skilled
        customers, who have won "Best In Show" at train shows.
        These folks use Sherline mills and lathes and often
        "found" materials to add even more realism to our models.
        The additional work requires patience, skill and weeks
        of time to perfect. If someone wants to see actual "to scale"
        drive rods and pins, it can be done but they should
        expect to spend a lot of time on each modification
        or expect to pay many more bucks for someone else
        to do the work for them.

        regardZ,
        Reynard
        http://www.micronart.com
        On Oct 1, 2010, at 7:34 AM, Garth wrote:

        >
        >
        > EDITED
        > >
        > > Alan
        > >
        >
        > Alan
        >
        > Have you seen the Tenshodo D51 Mikado in Z?
        > and there is a C62 Hudson on its way as well.
        >
        > cheerz Garth
        >
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • de Champeaux Dominique
        Joining my voice with Garth s, I should add I m a little bit surprised that most Z scale manufacturers don t consider powering the tender rather than the loco
        Message 3 of 30 , Oct 2, 2010
          Joining my voice with Garth's, I should add I'm a little bit surprised that most Z scale manufacturers don't consider powering the tender rather than the loco itself. Let's face it: it's quite rare for a steamer to move without its tender, if ever, and if we consider north american prototype many steamers were matched with a pretty big tender, maybe as tall as a F7 diesel loco. Starting from there it would be easy to power the tender shouldn't be?
           
          Dom
           
           


          --- En date de : Ven 1.10.10, Garth <garth.a.hamilton@...> a écrit :


          De: Garth <garth.a.hamilton@...>
          Objet: [Z_Scale] Re: A little history
          À: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Vendredi 1 octobre 2010, 14h34


           





          --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Alan Cox <alan@...> wrote:

          > snip
          > I don't hold out much hope for steam in Z with current technology. The
          > motors are too big for almost any steam, but a bigger problem would be
          > the connecting rods and valve gear. In N doing them roughly
          > prototypically is on the limit of acceptable robustness, in Z most of
          > them are very oversize, snip
          >
          > Alan
          >

          Alan

          Have you seen the Tenshodo D51 Mikado in Z?
          and there is a C62 Hudson on its way as well.

          cheerz Garth











          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Rick Saviano
          I can only speak from my grandson s experience with motorized Thomas the Tank Engine (actually, it was Emily that caused the problems) where the tenders
          Message 4 of 30 , Oct 2, 2010
            I can only speak from my grandson's experience with motorized Thomas
            the Tank Engine (actually, it was Emily that caused the problems) where
            the tenders pushed the engines off the track. I supposed if Emily was
            weighted enough, it wouldn't have jumped the tracks, but it would have
            made a pretty lethal preschool weapon.

            - Rick Saviano

            On 10/2/2010 7:54 AM, Alan Cox wrote:

            > On Sat, 2 Oct 2010 13:22:53 +0100 (BST)
            > de Champeaux Dominique<ddechamp71@...> wrote:
            >
            >> Joining my voice with Garth's, I should add I'm a little bit surprised that most Z scale manufacturers don't consider powering the tender rather than the loco itself.
            > It's been tried with varying success in other scales.
            >
          • Alan Cox
            On Sat, 2 Oct 2010 13:22:53 +0100 (BST) ... It s been tried with varying success in other scales. The latest Bachmann N gauge UK outline models use a tender
            Message 5 of 30 , Oct 2, 2010
              On Sat, 2 Oct 2010 13:22:53 +0100 (BST)
              de Champeaux Dominique <ddechamp71@...> wrote:

              > Joining my voice with Garth's, I should add I'm a little bit surprised that most Z scale manufacturers don't consider powering the tender rather than the loco itself. Let's face it: it's quite rare for a steamer to move without its tender, if ever, and if we consider north american prototype many steamers were matched with a pretty big tender, maybe as tall as a F7 diesel loco. Starting from there it would be easy to power the tender shouldn't be?

              It's been tried with varying success in other scales. The latest Bachmann
              N gauge UK outline models use a tender drive but this requires the
              locomotive itself is well weighted, extremely free wheeling, the wheels
              are almost perfectly round and the quartering right - otherwise the
              locomotive tends to skid down the track which looks seriously silly.

              Another approach that would also fit Z and is used is to put the motor in
              the tender and a drive shaft from it into the locomotive to the gearing
              and wheels. That lets you use a bigger motor (or flywheel), and avoids
              the problems with skidding while allowing you to put a lot of weight over
              the drive axles.

              Not yet seen anything that drives both.

              For custom stuff there are other tricks one of which is to power small
              locomotives with a tiny micromotor so it's not really able to haul much
              but itself (and tender if relevant) around but to hide a decent motor in
              a passenger coach or wagon. It can then run around trains, do a little
              shunting and apparently haul large trains, the latter work really being
              done by the hidden motor for the most part.
            • Melissa Cull
              Hi Tomas, I wasn t really making fun of the APTE as it was the forerunner to the Pendilino trains useed by Virgin Trains that are nice and smooth running. Like
              Message 6 of 30 , Oct 4, 2010
                Hi Tomas,

                I wasn't really making fun of the APTE as it was the forerunner to the Pendilino trains useed by Virgin Trains that are nice and smooth running.

                Like the Ford Capri and my favourite sports car the beautiful E-Type Jaguar- a little ahead of it's time when technology wasn't quite there:-)

                Kind RegardZ

                Melissa
                UK

                -----Original Message-----
                From: z_scale@yahoogroups.com [mailto:z_scale@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Tomas Dickinson
                Sent: 30 September 2010 10:57
                To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] A little history



                i wouldnt make fun of the APTE, it is one of the greatest of the not so
                greats....

                In gest, tomas.



                ________________________________
                From: Melissa Cull <melissa.cull@...>
                To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thu, 30 September, 2010 7:47:54 PM
                Subject: RE: [Z_Scale] A little history


                Hi Arnim,

                Thanks for the info on the Railex items, wonder if it could be motorized:-)

                I've got a great timeline poster with all those locomotives on right up to the
                flopped APTE......

                Kind RegardZ

                Melissa
                UK
                -----Original Message-----
                From: z_scale@yahoogroups.com [mailto:z_scale@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Arnim
                v. Herff
                Sent: 29 September 2010 23:32
                To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] A little history

                Am Montag, 27. September 2010 17:34:12 schrieb Melissa Cull:
                > Would love to see that working in Z Scale! Didn't Railex do a working
                > Stephenson's Rocket in Z Scale?

                No problem posting inf... Ooops. web page by Railex is not really working, but
                on other hand not really dead: http://www.railex.de/neu04.htm

                OK! Here we go.
                In 2004 Railex announced a set "Rainhill Trials" in Z- and N-scale containig
                the Rocket by Stepenson, the Sans Pareil by Hackworth and the Novelty by
                Braithwaite and Ericsson. The models are not motorized. The set is (was?)
                available fullcoloured or in pure brass. Additionally is offered a
                passenger-train with one open and two closed cars. One of the closed contains
                a motor. And a freight with two open and one boxed car. The later one
                contains a motor.

                I did not found a web-site containig pictures. But if you will use the
                picture-search by Google, you'll get the pictures of the above mentioned page
                in using terms "railex stephenson" as first results.

                Hope this helps.

                Greetings Arnim

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Melissa Cull
                Hi Alan, Fabulous thanks for the UK T gauge link. Parts, chassis and even a UK brass loco kit - wow! I wish someone would sell parts like that for Z Scale for
                Message 7 of 30 , Oct 7, 2010
                  Hi Alan,

                  Fabulous thanks for the UK T gauge link. Parts, chassis and even a UK brass
                  loco kit - wow! I wish someone would sell parts like that for Z Scale for
                  scratch and kit building rather than having to buy a whole new / second hand
                  loco and chop it up.

                  If as with any other scale manufacturers brought out etched super detailing
                  kits in Z then we could have wonderful more to scale steam connecting rods
                  and details. I see BLMA do super detailing for USA diesel locos and
                  MicronArt do some ladders and brake wheels for wagons.

                  As the Japanese being so dextrous with tiny weeny technology have brought
                  out T Scale I can see them doing more in Z Scale too.

                  Nano technology will break new boundries in tiny models eventually. Look
                  what Willard White can do in the eye of a needle - truly stunning but
                  totally impractical unless you have a mega expensive microscope to view.

                  Overall Z scale still has better scale looking models than much UK N and OO
                  scale. Modelling also in British N Scale and O Scale and an occasional
                  dabble in OO scale - standards between manufacturers are so variable. I like
                  to super detail proprietery, kitbash and scratchbuild to get what I want but
                  I'm not a rivet counter more like art perspective if it looks right it is
                  right.

                  Kind RegardZ

                  Melissa
                  UK

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: z_scale@yahoogroups.com [mailto:z_scale@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
                  Alan Cox
                  Sent: 01 October 2010 10:18
                  To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] A little history



                  See www.tgauge.co.uk

                  They are UK based and sell all the chassis and parts including bogies etc
                  for hacking up your own stuff. Note that for standard gauge the scale
                  should be 1:480 and some people use it for that - so its even smaller than
                  you might think - just under half Z.

                  I don't hold out much hope for steam in Z with current technology. The
                  motors are too big for almost any steam, but a bigger problem would be
                  the connecting rods and valve gear. In N doing them roughly
                  prototypically is on the limit of acceptable robustness, in Z most of
                  them are very oversize, and in T you'd probably need materials out of a
                  NASA lab !

                  I'm surprised we've not seen any US style T stuff yet - the big bogie
                  locos, and long bogie wagons are well suited to it.

                  Alan



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Alan Cox
                  ... You can make stainless steel rods easily enough - various companies like PPD will do etching for people on a small scale. For fine crankpins and the like
                  Message 8 of 30 , Oct 7, 2010
                    > kits in Z then we could have wonderful more to scale steam connecting rods
                    > and details. I see BLMA do super detailing for USA diesel locos and

                    You can make stainless steel rods easily enough - various companies like
                    PPD will do etching for people on a small scale. For fine crankpins and
                    the like the 2mm Scale Association ones are about the finest I know of in
                    the UK but sold to members only.

                    > As the Japanese being so dextrous with tiny weeny technology have brought
                    > out T Scale I can see them doing more in Z Scale too.

                    T is extremely crude in terms of rail and wheel standards, physics pretty
                    much demands it. Also no steamers not likely to be any for a while -
                    although I'd love to be proven wrong.

                    > Overall Z scale still has better scale looking models than much UK N and OO
                    > scale.

                    Most of my work is in N doing things like detailing work. The modern UK N
                    gauge is generally within a whisker of perfect scale and vastly superior
                    to any Z I've seen where certain vendors seem to have trouble even getting
                    the trucks the right length or in another vendors case in the right place.

                    So as a ruler wielding, photo analysing, running around with a tape
                    measure and rivet counting modeller - I'd disagree - although I'm not
                    sure it matters vastly providing you are careful with the trackwork. At
                    human viewing (as opposed to digicam from six inches) Z done nicely
                    creates wonderful 'train in landscape' vistas in very small spaces.

                    T track on the other hand is really hard to hide because of the relative
                    coarseness. It's great narrow gauge track but hard to use for its
                    intended purpose.

                    Alan
                  • mark2playz
                    Alan, After seeing the MTL operation in Oregon, western labor doesn t have to be expensive labor. I was amazed at amount of quality manufacturing they do
                    Message 9 of 30 , Oct 7, 2010
                      Alan,
                      After seeing the MTL operation in Oregon, western labor doesn't have to be expensive labor. I was amazed at amount of quality manufacturing they do in-house while still keeping prices low. I think the costs are determined more by smart management than cheap labor.
                      I agree that I don't mind paying for a reasonable mark-up for western labor costs...the job I save just might be my own!

                      Mark

                      --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Alan Cox <alan@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > On another topic about the prices for N scale vs Z scale,
                      > > there is another reason Z equipment can be slightly higher:
                      > > Engineering and assembly labor.
                      >
                      > And also the fact a lot of that labour is done in Western countries at
                      > higher cost. Personally that makes me somewhat happier even if my bank
                      > manager disagrees.
                      >
                      > And with the strikes in China, rapid wage rises and the pending trade war
                      > with the USA the pricing margin may well narrow quite a bit.
                      >
                      > Alan
                      >
                    • mark2playz
                      ... Hi Melissa, I ve had the opportunity to watch the ladies at MTL assembling the couplers (I think there is a video on youtube from the Z scale convention).
                      Message 10 of 30 , Oct 7, 2010
                        --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Melissa Cull" <melissa.cull@...> wrote:
                        > ...
                        > I'd like the job in the MTL factory assembling all the tiny components,
                        > after working with assembling Suface Mount Devices (SMD / SMT) electronics Z
                        > scale is big - so very relaxing:-)
                        Hi Melissa,

                        I've had the opportunity to watch the ladies at MTL assembling the couplers (I think there is a video on youtube from the Z scale convention). Spend an afternoon doing that and I think you'd go running back to SMD.

                        Mark
                      • Melissa Cull
                        Hi Mark, I also used to do very tiny fiddly engineering and electronic assembly work before SMD work. As long as you do varied batches of work then its not too
                        Message 11 of 30 , Oct 8, 2010
                          Hi Mark,

                          I also used to do very tiny fiddly engineering and electronic assembly work
                          before SMD work. As long as you do varied batches of work then its not too
                          monotonous and is quite theraputic. Unlike working with research computers
                          all day on clinical auditing databases. Developing databases is fine, data
                          entry is mind numbing - give me practical any day.

                          If MTL or Marklin had a UK manufacturing place or UK out working then I'd be
                          applying for a job faster than a steaming train:-)

                          Kind RegardZ

                          Melissa
                          UK





                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: z_scale@yahoogroups.com [mailto:z_scale@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
                          mark2playz
                          Sent: 07 October 2010 18:58
                          To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: A little history





                          --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Melissa Cull" <melissa.cull@...> wrote:
                          > ...
                          > I'd like the job in the MTL factory assembling all the tiny components,
                          > after working with assembling Suface Mount Devices (SMD / SMT)
                          electronics Z
                          > scale is big - so very relaxing:-)
                          Hi Melissa,

                          I've had the opportunity to watch the ladies at MTL assembling the
                          couplers (I think there is a video on youtube from the Z scale convention).
                          Spend an afternoon doing that and I think you'd go running back to SMD.

                          Mark






                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Melissa Cull
                          Hi Alan, I ve seen the 2mm scale Association items at exhibitions very nice. I was going to go down that route until I found Z Scale. I can see T scale is
                          Message 12 of 30 , Oct 8, 2010
                            Hi Alan,

                            I've seen the 2mm scale Association items at exhibitions very nice. I was
                            going to go down that route until I found Z Scale.

                            I can see T scale is crude for it's scale but should make reasonable Narrow
                            Gauge in Z scale or even as a model garden train O scale. Can always put
                            finer wheels on etc.

                            I only rivet count in O scale or above as you can really see them in that
                            scale, especially on my scratchbuilt Sentinal Steam Shunter I'm building in
                            nickel silver and brass- real thing looks like a chain driven riveted metal
                            shed on wheels:-)

                            In smaller scales as with larger I measure thrice, cut once and like to be
                            as accurate as my eyesight allows.

                            Kind RegardZ

                            Melissa
                            UK




                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: z_scale@yahoogroups.com [mailto:z_scale@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
                            Alan Cox
                            Sent: 07 October 2010 17:18
                            To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] A little history



                            > kits in Z then we could have wonderful more to scale steam connecting
                            rods
                            > and details. I see BLMA do super detailing for USA diesel locos and

                            You can make stainless steel rods easily enough - various companies like
                            PPD will do etching for people on a small scale. For fine crankpins and
                            the like the 2mm Scale Association ones are about the finest I know of in
                            the UK but sold to members only.

                            > As the Japanese being so dextrous with tiny weeny technology have
                            brought
                            > out T Scale I can see them doing more in Z Scale too.

                            T is extremely crude in terms of rail and wheel standards, physics pretty
                            much demands it. Also no steamers not likely to be any for a while -
                            although I'd love to be proven wrong.

                            > Overall Z scale still has better scale looking models than much UK N and
                            OO
                            > scale.

                            Most of my work is in N doing things like detailing work. The modern UK N
                            gauge is generally within a whisker of perfect scale and vastly superior
                            to any Z I've seen where certain vendors seem to have trouble even getting
                            the trucks the right length or in another vendors case in the right place.

                            So as a ruler wielding, photo analysing, running around with a tape
                            measure and rivet counting modeller - I'd disagree - although I'm not
                            sure it matters vastly providing you are careful with the trackwork. At
                            human viewing (as opposed to digicam from six inches) Z done nicely
                            creates wonderful 'train in landscape' vistas in very small spaces.

                            T track on the other hand is really hard to hide because of the relative
                            coarseness. It's great narrow gauge track but hard to use for its
                            intended purpose.

                            Alan





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • mark2playz
                            ... Actually, I think you would. Having had the opportunity to visit the MTL factory, I had some thoughts of putting in a job application myself. Many of the
                            Message 13 of 30 , Oct 8, 2010
                              --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Melissa Cull" <melissa.cull@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > ...If MTL or Marklin had a UK manufacturing place or UK out working then I'd be
                              > applying for a job faster than a steaming train:-)
                              >
                              > Kind RegardZ
                              >
                              > Melissa
                              > UK

                              Actually, I think you would. Having had the opportunity to visit the MTL factory, I had some thoughts of putting in a job application myself. Many of the techniques they use today, I used in IC manufacturing in the 90s.

                              Mark
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