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Re: [Z_Scale] A little history

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  • Tomas Dickinson
    i wouldnt make fun of the APTE, it is one of the greatest of the not so greats.... In gest, tomas.   ________________________________ From: Melissa Cull
    Message 1 of 30 , Sep 30, 2010
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      i wouldnt make fun of the APTE, it is one of the greatest of the not so
      greats....

      In gest, tomas.

       



      ________________________________
      From: Melissa Cull <melissa.cull@...>
      To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thu, 30 September, 2010 7:47:54 PM
      Subject: RE: [Z_Scale] A little history

       
      Hi Arnim,

      Thanks for the info on the Railex items, wonder if it could be motorized:-)

      I've got a great timeline poster with all those locomotives on right up to the
      flopped APTE......

      Kind RegardZ

      Melissa
      UK
      -----Original Message-----
      From: z_scale@yahoogroups.com [mailto:z_scale@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Arnim
      v. Herff
      Sent: 29 September 2010 23:32
      To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] A little history

      Am Montag, 27. September 2010 17:34:12 schrieb Melissa Cull:
      > Would love to see that working in Z Scale! Didn't Railex do a working
      > Stephenson's Rocket in Z Scale?

      No problem posting inf... Ooops. web page by Railex is not really working, but
      on other hand not really dead: http://www.railex.de/neu04.htm

      OK! Here we go.
      In 2004 Railex announced a set "Rainhill Trials" in Z- and N-scale containig
      the Rocket by Stepenson, the Sans Pareil by Hackworth and the Novelty by
      Braithwaite and Ericsson. The models are not motorized. The set is (was?)
      available fullcoloured or in pure brass. Additionally is offered a
      passenger-train with one open and two closed cars. One of the closed contains
      a motor. And a freight with two open and one boxed car. The later one
      contains a motor.

      I did not found a web-site containig pictures. But if you will use the
      picture-search by Google, you'll get the pictures of the above mentioned page
      in using terms "railex stephenson" as first results.

      Hope this helps.

      Greetings Arnim

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Alan Cox
      On Fri, 1 Oct 2010 08:23:15 +0100 ... See www.tgauge.co.uk They are UK based and sell all the chassis and parts including bogies etc for hacking up your own
      Message 2 of 30 , Oct 1, 2010
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        On Fri, 1 Oct 2010 08:23:15 +0100
        "Melissa Cull" <melissa.cull@...> wrote:

        > Hi Arnim,
        >
        > Dr Andreas Scheibe makes some great locomotives particularly the Glaskasten.
        >
        > I was hoping T gauge would release chassis or even steam locos. Any ideas on cost?
        >
        > Hope the T gauge chassis will be available in UK as that does open up some definite posibilities for some very Narrow Gauge Z Scale.

        See www.tgauge.co.uk

        They are UK based and sell all the chassis and parts including bogies etc
        for hacking up your own stuff. Note that for standard gauge the scale
        should be 1:480 and some people use it for that - so its even smaller than
        you might think - just under half Z.

        I don't hold out much hope for steam in Z with current technology. The
        motors are too big for almost any steam, but a bigger problem would be
        the connecting rods and valve gear. In N doing them roughly
        prototypically is on the limit of acceptable robustness, in Z most of
        them are very oversize, and in T you'd probably need materials out of a
        NASA lab !

        I'm surprised we've not seen any US style T stuff yet - the big bogie
        locos, and long bogie wagons are well suited to it.

        Alan
      • Garth
        ... Alan Have you seen the Tenshodo D51 Mikado in Z? and there is a C62 Hudson on its way as well. cheerz Garth
        Message 3 of 30 , Oct 1, 2010
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          --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Alan Cox <alan@...> wrote:

          > snip
          > I don't hold out much hope for steam in Z with current technology. The
          > motors are too big for almost any steam, but a bigger problem would be
          > the connecting rods and valve gear. In N doing them roughly
          > prototypically is on the limit of acceptable robustness, in Z most of
          > them are very oversize, snip
          >
          > Alan
          >

          Alan

          Have you seen the Tenshodo D51 Mikado in Z?
          and there is a C62 Hudson on its way as well.

          cheerz Garth
        • Alan Cox
          ... Yes - I think it proves the point quite nicely. It looks ok at a distance and its a marvellous bit of engineering but the crankpins are huge versus scale
          Message 4 of 30 , Oct 1, 2010
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            > Have you seen the Tenshodo D51 Mikado in Z?

            Yes - I think it proves the point quite nicely. It looks ok at a distance
            and its a marvellous bit of engineering but the crankpins are huge versus
            scale and the rodding looks way to heavy.

            Steam in T would be half the size again. At that point the smallest
            crankpins you can assemble commercially viably are about the size of the
            loco wheels !
          • reynard wellman
            Hi Garth, I agree, the Tenshodo locomotives are superb given that they are also affordable Z scale steam locomotives. Over the years I have received photos of
            Message 5 of 30 , Oct 1, 2010
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              Hi Garth,
              I agree, the Tenshodo locomotives are superb given that
              they are also affordable Z scale steam locomotives.

              Over the years I have received photos of some of
              our kits that have been super-detailed by very skilled
              customers, who have won "Best In Show" at train shows.
              These folks use Sherline mills and lathes and often
              "found" materials to add even more realism to our models.
              The additional work requires patience, skill and weeks
              of time to perfect. If someone wants to see actual "to scale"
              drive rods and pins, it can be done but they should
              expect to spend a lot of time on each modification
              or expect to pay many more bucks for someone else
              to do the work for them.

              regardZ,
              Reynard
              http://www.micronart.com
              On Oct 1, 2010, at 7:34 AM, Garth wrote:

              >
              >
              > EDITED
              > >
              > > Alan
              > >
              >
              > Alan
              >
              > Have you seen the Tenshodo D51 Mikado in Z?
              > and there is a C62 Hudson on its way as well.
              >
              > cheerz Garth
              >
              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • de Champeaux Dominique
              Joining my voice with Garth s, I should add I m a little bit surprised that most Z scale manufacturers don t consider powering the tender rather than the loco
              Message 6 of 30 , Oct 2, 2010
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                Joining my voice with Garth's, I should add I'm a little bit surprised that most Z scale manufacturers don't consider powering the tender rather than the loco itself. Let's face it: it's quite rare for a steamer to move without its tender, if ever, and if we consider north american prototype many steamers were matched with a pretty big tender, maybe as tall as a F7 diesel loco. Starting from there it would be easy to power the tender shouldn't be?
                 
                Dom
                 
                 


                --- En date de : Ven 1.10.10, Garth <garth.a.hamilton@...> a écrit :


                De: Garth <garth.a.hamilton@...>
                Objet: [Z_Scale] Re: A little history
                À: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Vendredi 1 octobre 2010, 14h34


                 





                --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Alan Cox <alan@...> wrote:

                > snip
                > I don't hold out much hope for steam in Z with current technology. The
                > motors are too big for almost any steam, but a bigger problem would be
                > the connecting rods and valve gear. In N doing them roughly
                > prototypically is on the limit of acceptable robustness, in Z most of
                > them are very oversize, snip
                >
                > Alan
                >

                Alan

                Have you seen the Tenshodo D51 Mikado in Z?
                and there is a C62 Hudson on its way as well.

                cheerz Garth











                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Rick Saviano
                I can only speak from my grandson s experience with motorized Thomas the Tank Engine (actually, it was Emily that caused the problems) where the tenders
                Message 7 of 30 , Oct 2, 2010
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                  I can only speak from my grandson's experience with motorized Thomas
                  the Tank Engine (actually, it was Emily that caused the problems) where
                  the tenders pushed the engines off the track. I supposed if Emily was
                  weighted enough, it wouldn't have jumped the tracks, but it would have
                  made a pretty lethal preschool weapon.

                  - Rick Saviano

                  On 10/2/2010 7:54 AM, Alan Cox wrote:

                  > On Sat, 2 Oct 2010 13:22:53 +0100 (BST)
                  > de Champeaux Dominique<ddechamp71@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >> Joining my voice with Garth's, I should add I'm a little bit surprised that most Z scale manufacturers don't consider powering the tender rather than the loco itself.
                  > It's been tried with varying success in other scales.
                  >
                • Alan Cox
                  On Sat, 2 Oct 2010 13:22:53 +0100 (BST) ... It s been tried with varying success in other scales. The latest Bachmann N gauge UK outline models use a tender
                  Message 8 of 30 , Oct 2, 2010
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                    On Sat, 2 Oct 2010 13:22:53 +0100 (BST)
                    de Champeaux Dominique <ddechamp71@...> wrote:

                    > Joining my voice with Garth's, I should add I'm a little bit surprised that most Z scale manufacturers don't consider powering the tender rather than the loco itself. Let's face it: it's quite rare for a steamer to move without its tender, if ever, and if we consider north american prototype many steamers were matched with a pretty big tender, maybe as tall as a F7 diesel loco. Starting from there it would be easy to power the tender shouldn't be?

                    It's been tried with varying success in other scales. The latest Bachmann
                    N gauge UK outline models use a tender drive but this requires the
                    locomotive itself is well weighted, extremely free wheeling, the wheels
                    are almost perfectly round and the quartering right - otherwise the
                    locomotive tends to skid down the track which looks seriously silly.

                    Another approach that would also fit Z and is used is to put the motor in
                    the tender and a drive shaft from it into the locomotive to the gearing
                    and wheels. That lets you use a bigger motor (or flywheel), and avoids
                    the problems with skidding while allowing you to put a lot of weight over
                    the drive axles.

                    Not yet seen anything that drives both.

                    For custom stuff there are other tricks one of which is to power small
                    locomotives with a tiny micromotor so it's not really able to haul much
                    but itself (and tender if relevant) around but to hide a decent motor in
                    a passenger coach or wagon. It can then run around trains, do a little
                    shunting and apparently haul large trains, the latter work really being
                    done by the hidden motor for the most part.
                  • Melissa Cull
                    Hi Tomas, I wasn t really making fun of the APTE as it was the forerunner to the Pendilino trains useed by Virgin Trains that are nice and smooth running. Like
                    Message 9 of 30 , Oct 4, 2010
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                      Hi Tomas,

                      I wasn't really making fun of the APTE as it was the forerunner to the Pendilino trains useed by Virgin Trains that are nice and smooth running.

                      Like the Ford Capri and my favourite sports car the beautiful E-Type Jaguar- a little ahead of it's time when technology wasn't quite there:-)

                      Kind RegardZ

                      Melissa
                      UK

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: z_scale@yahoogroups.com [mailto:z_scale@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Tomas Dickinson
                      Sent: 30 September 2010 10:57
                      To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] A little history



                      i wouldnt make fun of the APTE, it is one of the greatest of the not so
                      greats....

                      In gest, tomas.



                      ________________________________
                      From: Melissa Cull <melissa.cull@...>
                      To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thu, 30 September, 2010 7:47:54 PM
                      Subject: RE: [Z_Scale] A little history


                      Hi Arnim,

                      Thanks for the info on the Railex items, wonder if it could be motorized:-)

                      I've got a great timeline poster with all those locomotives on right up to the
                      flopped APTE......

                      Kind RegardZ

                      Melissa
                      UK
                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: z_scale@yahoogroups.com [mailto:z_scale@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Arnim
                      v. Herff
                      Sent: 29 September 2010 23:32
                      To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] A little history

                      Am Montag, 27. September 2010 17:34:12 schrieb Melissa Cull:
                      > Would love to see that working in Z Scale! Didn't Railex do a working
                      > Stephenson's Rocket in Z Scale?

                      No problem posting inf... Ooops. web page by Railex is not really working, but
                      on other hand not really dead: http://www.railex.de/neu04.htm

                      OK! Here we go.
                      In 2004 Railex announced a set "Rainhill Trials" in Z- and N-scale containig
                      the Rocket by Stepenson, the Sans Pareil by Hackworth and the Novelty by
                      Braithwaite and Ericsson. The models are not motorized. The set is (was?)
                      available fullcoloured or in pure brass. Additionally is offered a
                      passenger-train with one open and two closed cars. One of the closed contains
                      a motor. And a freight with two open and one boxed car. The later one
                      contains a motor.

                      I did not found a web-site containig pictures. But if you will use the
                      picture-search by Google, you'll get the pictures of the above mentioned page
                      in using terms "railex stephenson" as first results.

                      Hope this helps.

                      Greetings Arnim

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Melissa Cull
                      Hi Alan, Fabulous thanks for the UK T gauge link. Parts, chassis and even a UK brass loco kit - wow! I wish someone would sell parts like that for Z Scale for
                      Message 10 of 30 , Oct 7, 2010
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                        Hi Alan,

                        Fabulous thanks for the UK T gauge link. Parts, chassis and even a UK brass
                        loco kit - wow! I wish someone would sell parts like that for Z Scale for
                        scratch and kit building rather than having to buy a whole new / second hand
                        loco and chop it up.

                        If as with any other scale manufacturers brought out etched super detailing
                        kits in Z then we could have wonderful more to scale steam connecting rods
                        and details. I see BLMA do super detailing for USA diesel locos and
                        MicronArt do some ladders and brake wheels for wagons.

                        As the Japanese being so dextrous with tiny weeny technology have brought
                        out T Scale I can see them doing more in Z Scale too.

                        Nano technology will break new boundries in tiny models eventually. Look
                        what Willard White can do in the eye of a needle - truly stunning but
                        totally impractical unless you have a mega expensive microscope to view.

                        Overall Z scale still has better scale looking models than much UK N and OO
                        scale. Modelling also in British N Scale and O Scale and an occasional
                        dabble in OO scale - standards between manufacturers are so variable. I like
                        to super detail proprietery, kitbash and scratchbuild to get what I want but
                        I'm not a rivet counter more like art perspective if it looks right it is
                        right.

                        Kind RegardZ

                        Melissa
                        UK

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: z_scale@yahoogroups.com [mailto:z_scale@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
                        Alan Cox
                        Sent: 01 October 2010 10:18
                        To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] A little history



                        See www.tgauge.co.uk

                        They are UK based and sell all the chassis and parts including bogies etc
                        for hacking up your own stuff. Note that for standard gauge the scale
                        should be 1:480 and some people use it for that - so its even smaller than
                        you might think - just under half Z.

                        I don't hold out much hope for steam in Z with current technology. The
                        motors are too big for almost any steam, but a bigger problem would be
                        the connecting rods and valve gear. In N doing them roughly
                        prototypically is on the limit of acceptable robustness, in Z most of
                        them are very oversize, and in T you'd probably need materials out of a
                        NASA lab !

                        I'm surprised we've not seen any US style T stuff yet - the big bogie
                        locos, and long bogie wagons are well suited to it.

                        Alan



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Alan Cox
                        ... You can make stainless steel rods easily enough - various companies like PPD will do etching for people on a small scale. For fine crankpins and the like
                        Message 11 of 30 , Oct 7, 2010
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                          > kits in Z then we could have wonderful more to scale steam connecting rods
                          > and details. I see BLMA do super detailing for USA diesel locos and

                          You can make stainless steel rods easily enough - various companies like
                          PPD will do etching for people on a small scale. For fine crankpins and
                          the like the 2mm Scale Association ones are about the finest I know of in
                          the UK but sold to members only.

                          > As the Japanese being so dextrous with tiny weeny technology have brought
                          > out T Scale I can see them doing more in Z Scale too.

                          T is extremely crude in terms of rail and wheel standards, physics pretty
                          much demands it. Also no steamers not likely to be any for a while -
                          although I'd love to be proven wrong.

                          > Overall Z scale still has better scale looking models than much UK N and OO
                          > scale.

                          Most of my work is in N doing things like detailing work. The modern UK N
                          gauge is generally within a whisker of perfect scale and vastly superior
                          to any Z I've seen where certain vendors seem to have trouble even getting
                          the trucks the right length or in another vendors case in the right place.

                          So as a ruler wielding, photo analysing, running around with a tape
                          measure and rivet counting modeller - I'd disagree - although I'm not
                          sure it matters vastly providing you are careful with the trackwork. At
                          human viewing (as opposed to digicam from six inches) Z done nicely
                          creates wonderful 'train in landscape' vistas in very small spaces.

                          T track on the other hand is really hard to hide because of the relative
                          coarseness. It's great narrow gauge track but hard to use for its
                          intended purpose.

                          Alan
                        • mark2playz
                          Alan, After seeing the MTL operation in Oregon, western labor doesn t have to be expensive labor. I was amazed at amount of quality manufacturing they do
                          Message 12 of 30 , Oct 7, 2010
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                            Alan,
                            After seeing the MTL operation in Oregon, western labor doesn't have to be expensive labor. I was amazed at amount of quality manufacturing they do in-house while still keeping prices low. I think the costs are determined more by smart management than cheap labor.
                            I agree that I don't mind paying for a reasonable mark-up for western labor costs...the job I save just might be my own!

                            Mark

                            --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Alan Cox <alan@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > On another topic about the prices for N scale vs Z scale,
                            > > there is another reason Z equipment can be slightly higher:
                            > > Engineering and assembly labor.
                            >
                            > And also the fact a lot of that labour is done in Western countries at
                            > higher cost. Personally that makes me somewhat happier even if my bank
                            > manager disagrees.
                            >
                            > And with the strikes in China, rapid wage rises and the pending trade war
                            > with the USA the pricing margin may well narrow quite a bit.
                            >
                            > Alan
                            >
                          • mark2playz
                            ... Hi Melissa, I ve had the opportunity to watch the ladies at MTL assembling the couplers (I think there is a video on youtube from the Z scale convention).
                            Message 13 of 30 , Oct 7, 2010
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                              --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Melissa Cull" <melissa.cull@...> wrote:
                              > ...
                              > I'd like the job in the MTL factory assembling all the tiny components,
                              > after working with assembling Suface Mount Devices (SMD / SMT) electronics Z
                              > scale is big - so very relaxing:-)
                              Hi Melissa,

                              I've had the opportunity to watch the ladies at MTL assembling the couplers (I think there is a video on youtube from the Z scale convention). Spend an afternoon doing that and I think you'd go running back to SMD.

                              Mark
                            • Melissa Cull
                              Hi Mark, I also used to do very tiny fiddly engineering and electronic assembly work before SMD work. As long as you do varied batches of work then its not too
                              Message 14 of 30 , Oct 8, 2010
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                                Hi Mark,

                                I also used to do very tiny fiddly engineering and electronic assembly work
                                before SMD work. As long as you do varied batches of work then its not too
                                monotonous and is quite theraputic. Unlike working with research computers
                                all day on clinical auditing databases. Developing databases is fine, data
                                entry is mind numbing - give me practical any day.

                                If MTL or Marklin had a UK manufacturing place or UK out working then I'd be
                                applying for a job faster than a steaming train:-)

                                Kind RegardZ

                                Melissa
                                UK





                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: z_scale@yahoogroups.com [mailto:z_scale@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
                                mark2playz
                                Sent: 07 October 2010 18:58
                                To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: A little history





                                --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Melissa Cull" <melissa.cull@...> wrote:
                                > ...
                                > I'd like the job in the MTL factory assembling all the tiny components,
                                > after working with assembling Suface Mount Devices (SMD / SMT)
                                electronics Z
                                > scale is big - so very relaxing:-)
                                Hi Melissa,

                                I've had the opportunity to watch the ladies at MTL assembling the
                                couplers (I think there is a video on youtube from the Z scale convention).
                                Spend an afternoon doing that and I think you'd go running back to SMD.

                                Mark






                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Melissa Cull
                                Hi Alan, I ve seen the 2mm scale Association items at exhibitions very nice. I was going to go down that route until I found Z Scale. I can see T scale is
                                Message 15 of 30 , Oct 8, 2010
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                                  Hi Alan,

                                  I've seen the 2mm scale Association items at exhibitions very nice. I was
                                  going to go down that route until I found Z Scale.

                                  I can see T scale is crude for it's scale but should make reasonable Narrow
                                  Gauge in Z scale or even as a model garden train O scale. Can always put
                                  finer wheels on etc.

                                  I only rivet count in O scale or above as you can really see them in that
                                  scale, especially on my scratchbuilt Sentinal Steam Shunter I'm building in
                                  nickel silver and brass- real thing looks like a chain driven riveted metal
                                  shed on wheels:-)

                                  In smaller scales as with larger I measure thrice, cut once and like to be
                                  as accurate as my eyesight allows.

                                  Kind RegardZ

                                  Melissa
                                  UK




                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: z_scale@yahoogroups.com [mailto:z_scale@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
                                  Alan Cox
                                  Sent: 07 October 2010 17:18
                                  To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] A little history



                                  > kits in Z then we could have wonderful more to scale steam connecting
                                  rods
                                  > and details. I see BLMA do super detailing for USA diesel locos and

                                  You can make stainless steel rods easily enough - various companies like
                                  PPD will do etching for people on a small scale. For fine crankpins and
                                  the like the 2mm Scale Association ones are about the finest I know of in
                                  the UK but sold to members only.

                                  > As the Japanese being so dextrous with tiny weeny technology have
                                  brought
                                  > out T Scale I can see them doing more in Z Scale too.

                                  T is extremely crude in terms of rail and wheel standards, physics pretty
                                  much demands it. Also no steamers not likely to be any for a while -
                                  although I'd love to be proven wrong.

                                  > Overall Z scale still has better scale looking models than much UK N and
                                  OO
                                  > scale.

                                  Most of my work is in N doing things like detailing work. The modern UK N
                                  gauge is generally within a whisker of perfect scale and vastly superior
                                  to any Z I've seen where certain vendors seem to have trouble even getting
                                  the trucks the right length or in another vendors case in the right place.

                                  So as a ruler wielding, photo analysing, running around with a tape
                                  measure and rivet counting modeller - I'd disagree - although I'm not
                                  sure it matters vastly providing you are careful with the trackwork. At
                                  human viewing (as opposed to digicam from six inches) Z done nicely
                                  creates wonderful 'train in landscape' vistas in very small spaces.

                                  T track on the other hand is really hard to hide because of the relative
                                  coarseness. It's great narrow gauge track but hard to use for its
                                  intended purpose.

                                  Alan





                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • mark2playz
                                  ... Actually, I think you would. Having had the opportunity to visit the MTL factory, I had some thoughts of putting in a job application myself. Many of the
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Oct 8, 2010
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                                    --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Melissa Cull" <melissa.cull@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > ...If MTL or Marklin had a UK manufacturing place or UK out working then I'd be
                                    > applying for a job faster than a steaming train:-)
                                    >
                                    > Kind RegardZ
                                    >
                                    > Melissa
                                    > UK

                                    Actually, I think you would. Having had the opportunity to visit the MTL factory, I had some thoughts of putting in a job application myself. Many of the techniques they use today, I used in IC manufacturing in the 90s.

                                    Mark
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