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Status of Robert Dressel?

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  • Malcolm Cleaveland
    Does anybody know what s up with Robert Dressel? He owes me a large sum of $$$$$$, but will not answer my e-mails. The e-mail address I have for him is:
    Message 1 of 19 , Sep 15, 2010
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      Does anybody know what's up with Robert Dressel? He owes me a large sum
      of $$$$$$, but will not answer my e-mails. The e-mail address I have for
      him is: rdressel@...
      and my e-mails don't bounce. So I infer that he's getting them.

      CheerZ,
      -- Malcolm Z
    • Alan Cox
      On Wed, 15 Sep 2010 09:24:00 -0500 (CDT) ... Not always a reliable assumption - they may just be going into the spam bucket. Google is your friend however -
      Message 2 of 19 , Sep 15, 2010
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        On Wed, 15 Sep 2010 09:24:00 -0500 (CDT)
        Malcolm Cleaveland <mcleavel@...> wrote:

        > Does anybody know what's up with Robert Dressel? He owes me a large sum
        > of $$$$$$, but will not answer my e-mails. The e-mail address I have for
        > him is: rdressel@...
        > and my e-mails don't bounce. So I infer that he's getting them.

        Not always a reliable assumption - they may just be going into the spam
        bucket.

        Google is your friend however - and Google last saw him posting on the
        Atlas RR forum in June....
      • Malcolm Cleaveland
        Thanks, Alan. I guess I can kiss my $$$$ goodbye anyway, if he s got me listed for the spam bucket. I have been e-mailing him well before June. I ll try
        Message 3 of 19 , Sep 15, 2010
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          Thanks, Alan. I guess I can kiss my $$$$ goodbye anyway, if he's got me
          listed for the spam bucket. I have been e-mailing him well before June.
          I'll try posting on the Atlas RR forum.

          CheerZ,
          -- Malcolm Z

          > On Wed, 15 Sep 2010 09:24:00 -0500 (CDT)
          > Malcolm Cleaveland <mcleavel@...> wrote:
          >
          >> Does anybody know what's up with Robert Dressel? He owes me a large sum
          >> of $$$$$$, but will not answer my e-mails. The e-mail address I have for
          >> him is: rdressel@...
          >> and my e-mails don't bounce. So I infer that he's getting them.
          >
          > Not always a reliable assumption - they may just be going into the spam
          > bucket.
          >
          > Google is your friend however - and Google last saw him posting on the
          > Atlas RR forum in June....
          >
        • Elizabeth Hayes
          sounds like he is in the same boat as Alan Borg? To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com CC: mcleavel@uark.edu From: alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010
          Message 4 of 19 , Sep 21, 2010
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            sounds like he is in the same boat as Alan Borg?



            To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
            CC: mcleavel@...
            From: alan@...
            Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 16:20:00 +0100
            Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Status of Robert Dressel?






            On Wed, 15 Sep 2010 09:24:00 -0500 (CDT)
            Malcolm Cleaveland <mcleavel@...> wrote:

            > Does anybody know what's up with Robert Dressel? He owes me a large sum
            > of $$$$$$, but will not answer my e-mails. The e-mail address I have for
            > him is: rdressel@...
            > and my e-mails don't bounce. So I infer that he's getting them.

            Not always a reliable assumption - they may just be going into the spam
            bucket.

            Google is your friend however - and Google last saw him posting on the
            Atlas RR forum in June....




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Gert Velthuizen
            Guess you re right Elizabeth, From personal experience, helas. Still: 1) The reply by Loren makes sence: you don t know what the story behind a certain
            Message 5 of 19 , Sep 22, 2010
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              Guess you're right Elizabeth,



              From personal experience, helas. Still:

              1) The reply by Loren makes sence: you don't know what the story behind a certain behaviour is.

              2) There are always people making intentionally abuse of other people's good faith.

              3) Everything stands or falls with proper communication. If there is a situation it takes a lot of courage to step across your shame/guild/name it and tell the people who are not happy about you that there is a situation. As soon as they do tell you, lots of problems can be solved.



              Difficult situation to deal with, I have written of my believe in ever receiving an automax in Z scale....

              Hope someone is feeling good about it so I can think of it as charity.



              Have a wonderfull weekend



              Gert

              > To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
              > From: ehayes24@...
              > Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 01:57:28 +0000
              > Subject: RE: [Z_Scale] Status of Robert Dressel?
              >
              >
              > sounds like he is in the same boat as Alan Borg?
              >
              >
              >
              > To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
              > CC: mcleavel@...
              > From: alan@...
              > Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 16:20:00 +0100
              > Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Status of Robert Dressel?
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > On Wed, 15 Sep 2010 09:24:00 -0500 (CDT)
              > Malcolm Cleaveland <mcleavel@...> wrote:
              >
              > > Does anybody know what's up with Robert Dressel? He owes me a large sum
              > > of $$$$$$, but will not answer my e-mails. The e-mail address I have for
              > > him is: rdressel@...
              > > and my e-mails don't bounce. So I infer that he's getting them.
              >
              > Not always a reliable assumption - they may just be going into the spam
              > bucket.
              >
              > Google is your friend however - and Google last saw him posting on the
              > Atlas RR forum in June....
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Z-scale: minimum siZe, MAXIMUM enjoyment!
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • ztrack@aol.com
              All, This can be a touchy topic. I have seen my fair share of cheats come through are Z scale family. Each time this happens, they take more away then just the
              Message 6 of 19 , Sep 23, 2010
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                All,

                This can be a touchy topic. I have seen my fair share of cheats come
                through are Z scale family. Each time this happens, they take more away then just
                the money or products they absconded with. The take away trust.

                It is too easy to think the person on the other end of the keyboard is your
                friend, even though you never met them. But just use common sense. Here are
                some rules:

                1: If it is too good to be true, it probably is.

                2: If someone comes on the forum new, and promises the world, run. This
                person won't be around long and likely will take your hopes and cash with him.

                3: NEVER pay in full for custom work and spec projects. If someone requires
                money for parts and materials, then that is one thing. Only agree to pay
                for the parts and materials, with payment in full upon receipt.

                4: Never blindly send someone merchandise without cleared payment up front.
                Make sure you have money in hand. If this individual refuses to do so, then
                end the deal.

                5: Send ALL items in a method you can track and insure. One of the biggest
                frauds in our hobby is mail order. The old I never received it game. There
                is a reason why we send items the way we do for the cost we charge. It is
                protection.

                6: Make sure you have a good address, phone number and email address. Make
                sure you validate especially phone. You will need this if you don't receive
                what was promised

                7: Document everything. If values are large enough, legal action can be
                taken and should be considered an option. Ztrack works with a collection agency
                for just reasons and will turn over matters to layers if need be. Consumers
                have the same option.

                8: Don't rush to out someone on the forum without giving them every
                opportunity to make right.

                9: When it comes to outing, this can be sticky. We have to be careful that
                liable is not presented. It keep it factual. I would encourage others who
                were burned by the individual to come forward. We do need to protect
                ourselves. But also, don't drag it on. If these individuals are active on the forums,
                put them on the spot. Otherwise, they will continue to act with impunity on
                unsuspecting Z scalers.

                10: Keep the door open. If the individual makes right, then let the forums
                know. This is just as important as getting the word out on cheats. Almost
                everyone deserves a 2nd chance.

                I hope everyone takes to heart this advice. It is sad when members of this
                community fail to follow through. But, we have to be smart and make sure we
                protect ourselves.

                Rob


                Ztrack Magazine Ltd.
                www.ztrack.com
                www.ztrackcenter.com
                www.ztrackresale.com
                6142 Northcliff Blvd
                Dublin OH 43016
                (614) 764-1703


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • hasbro
                ... ... Rob, Your points on dealing with each other in business related issues is well stated and appropriate. After thinking about this a bit and
                Message 7 of 19 , Sep 23, 2010
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                  --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, ztrack@... wrote:
                  >
                  > All,
                  >
                  > This can be a touchy topic.
                  <snip>
                  > Rob

                  Rob,
                  Your points on dealing with each other in business related issues is well stated and appropriate.

                  After thinking about this a bit and seeing other responses by those with comments and those who have added other names to the list of alleged offenders, I offer the following thoughts and suggestion.....

                  We all will acknowledge that this world is becoming filled more and more with dishonest, hurtful individuals who if left to their own devices will in all likelihood, continue to behave in a manner that causes both physical, emotional, and economic harm.

                  Many now days don't want to or are unwilling to accept responsibility for their actions. In other words, they won't own their misdeeds. There is a very dire shortage of folks who are willing to be accountable for their actions.

                  Perhaps it is high time that we call out the dishonest. We as a Z family, even though it is a small community by the world's standards, have the ability amongst ourselves to monitor each other and hold each other accountable.

                  Maybe it is high time we make public anyone who has defrauded another member of our family. In other words, maybe we should collectively 'blow the whistle' on those who do not act honestly.

                  I realize this could easily become a platform for crucifying anyone we did not like personally and I know that each one of us has probably those on the side lines who dislike us for one reason or another.

                  If there was someone who had not dealt honestly with another, and after having made honest repeated attempts to settle the dispute,and having given the alleged offender ample opportunity to make things right, then the injured party should post the name of the offender for all the world to see.

                  We need to hold each other accountable in our business dealings and this could be a way to (and I hesitate to use the word 'police' each other) have each one of us be totally honest.

                  The main problem in being a self governing body is that people by nature are selfish and full of pent up envy and strife in general and it is easy to let our nature get the best of us and rule our actions and words.

                  If we can be totally honest with ourselves and consider the golden rule of 'doing unto others as we would have others do unto us' then perhaps we could make our Z community more honest, and have the highest standards of any modeling group.

                  So, maybe we should all become whistle blowers, but only after searching our own conscience and asking ourselves, "is this action on my part totally above board and meant only to protect and not to slander or hurt?

                  Enough of my sermonizing, but I just thought it was an opportunity to help the Z family become all it can be.

                  I am not inviting arrows be slung my way, but if there is anyone out there who feels I have wronged them in any way, I invite you to 'privately' address me with your concern.

                  For a better world..........is that possible?

                  Loren
                  Z Train Things and Stonebridge Models.
                • hasbro
                  ... Good points Rob, Maybe it is high time we start policing ourselves a bit more, not in a vindictive sort of way, but after having given the alleged
                  Message 8 of 19 , Sep 23, 2010
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                    --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, ztrack@... wrote:
                    >
                    > All,
                    >
                    > This can be a touchy topic. I have seen my fair share of cheats come
                    > through are Z scale family. Each time this happens, they take more away then just
                    > the money or products they absconded with. The take away trust.

                    <snip>

                    Good points Rob,

                    Maybe it is high time we start policing ourselves a bit more, not in a vindictive sort of way, but after having given the alleged offender ample opportunity to right the wrong and getting no response, then maybe posting names for the world to see would be the best way to monitor ourselves.

                    We all need to be accountable to the rest of the community.

                    "Own our actions"

                    What think ye?
                    Loren
                  • Garth
                    I have some grave concerns about this whole matter. I am not sure that I have an answer that will fill the bill so I offer the following for discussion and
                    Message 9 of 19 , Sep 23, 2010
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                      I have some grave concerns about this whole matter. I am not sure that I have an answer that will fill the bill so I offer the following for discussion and consideration.

                      I see a real concern in the possibility of abuse of our group and the easiness of forever marking a person whether earned or not. Yes I have been ripped off and by someone who I considered a friend as well as strangers in the past. While it has not changed the way I deal with people I consider friends it has perhaps tempered who I allow in that inside circle somewhat and it has tightened up how I deal with others at flea markets and with internet sales. Am I immune to this type of behavior, probably not, but it makes me feel better, that I am doing my bit to try and prevent it happening to me.

                      Human nature and the nature of the internet has created a society that frequently uses the keyboard to do their thinking and take their frustration out quickly for an easy fix to their frustration and it might not be justified in many cases and yet you have essentially defamed someone, which is liable, and they then have recourse to seek restitution from those who initiated the remarks and the medium they used to disseminate those remarks.

                      In the absence of the accused to defend themselves this naming process becomes a kangaroo court and the offender is tried and found guilty in absentia. I ask is this really what we are about?

                      thoughtfully yours
                      Garth Hamilton

                      --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "hasbro" <ljsnyder@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, ztrack@ wrote:
                      > >
                      > > All,
                      > >
                      > > This can be a touchy topic. I have seen my fair share of cheats come
                      > > through are Z scale family. Each time this happens, they take more away then just
                      > > the money or products they absconded with. The take away trust.
                      >
                      > <snip>
                      >
                      > Good points Rob,
                      >
                      > Maybe it is high time we start policing ourselves a bit more, not in a vindictive sort of way, but after having given the alleged offender ample opportunity to right the wrong and getting no response, then maybe posting names for the world to see would be the best way to monitor ourselves.
                      >
                      > We all need to be accountable to the rest of the community.
                      >
                      > "Own our actions"
                      >
                      > What think ye?
                      > Loren
                      >
                    • Don Avila
                      *..well, a name gets posted. Obviously the name owner can respond. If the response is legitimate I think the stigma will go away pretty promptly. OTOH no
                      Message 10 of 19 , Sep 23, 2010
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                        *..well, a name gets posted. Obviously the name owner can respond. If the
                        response is legitimate I think the stigma will go away pretty promptly.
                        OTOH no response pretty much says that maybe the complainer has a legitimate
                        complaint.

                        ...don


                        *
                        On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 4:50 PM, Garth <garth.a.hamilton@...> wrote:

                        >
                        >
                        > I have some grave concerns about this whole matter. I am not sure that I
                        > have an answer that will fill the bill so I offer the following for
                        > discussion and consideration.
                        >
                        > I see a real concern in the possibility of abuse of our group and the
                        > easiness of forever marking a person whether earned or not. Yes I have been
                        > ripped off and by someone who I considered a friend as well as strangers in
                        > the past. While it has not changed the way I deal with people I consider
                        > friends it has perhaps tempered who I allow in that inside circle somewhat
                        > and it has tightened up how I deal with others at flea markets and with
                        > internet sales. Am I immune to this type of behavior, probably not, but it
                        > makes me feel better, that I am doing my bit to try and prevent it happening
                        > to me.
                        >
                        > Human nature and the nature of the internet has created a society that
                        > frequently uses the keyboard to do their thinking and take their frustration
                        > out quickly for an easy fix to their frustration and it might not be
                        > justified in many cases and yet you have essentially defamed someone, which
                        > is liable, and they then have recourse to seek restitution from those who
                        > initiated the remarks and the medium they used to disseminate those remarks.
                        >
                        >
                        > In the absence of the accused to defend themselves this naming process
                        > becomes a kangaroo court and the offender is tried and found guilty in
                        > absentia. I ask is this really what we are about?
                        >
                        > thoughtfully yours
                        > Garth Hamilton
                        >
                        > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com <z_scale%40yahoogroups.com>, "hasbro"
                        > <ljsnyder@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com <z_scale%40yahoogroups.com>, ztrack@wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > All,
                        > > >
                        > > > This can be a touchy topic. I have seen my fair share of cheats come
                        > > > through are Z scale family. Each time this happens, they take more away
                        > then just
                        > > > the money or products they absconded with. The take away trust.
                        > >
                        > > <snip>
                        > >
                        > > Good points Rob,
                        > >
                        > > Maybe it is high time we start policing ourselves a bit more, not in a
                        > vindictive sort of way, but after having given the alleged offender ample
                        > opportunity to right the wrong and getting no response, then maybe posting
                        > names for the world to see would be the best way to monitor ourselves.
                        > >
                        > > We all need to be accountable to the rest of the community.
                        > >
                        > > "Own our actions"
                        > >
                        > > What think ye?
                        > > Loren
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >



                        --
                        *...don a* *- Northern Ohio, USA*


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Garth
                        Not everyone is a member if you can prove he is a member that might be legitimate but I still do not think silence should be a prerequisite for a guilty
                        Message 11 of 19 , Sep 23, 2010
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                          Not everyone is a member if you can prove he is a member that might be legitimate but I still do not think silence should be a prerequisite for a guilty finding.

                          cheerz Garth

                          --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Don Avila <zbarr474@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > *..well, a name gets posted. Obviously the name owner can respond. If the
                          > response is legitimate I think the stigma will go away pretty promptly.
                          > OTOH no response pretty much says that maybe the complainer has a legitimate
                          > complaint.
                          >
                          > ...don
                          >
                          >
                          > *
                          > On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 4:50 PM, Garth <garth.a.hamilton@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > I have some grave concerns about this whole matter. I am not sure that I
                          > > have an answer that will fill the bill so I offer the following for
                          > > discussion and consideration.
                          > >
                          > > I see a real concern in the possibility of abuse of our group and the
                          > > easiness of forever marking a person whether earned or not. Yes I have been
                          > > ripped off and by someone who I considered a friend as well as strangers in
                          > > the past. While it has not changed the way I deal with people I consider
                          > > friends it has perhaps tempered who I allow in that inside circle somewhat
                          > > and it has tightened up how I deal with others at flea markets and with
                          > > internet sales. Am I immune to this type of behavior, probably not, but it
                          > > makes me feel better, that I am doing my bit to try and prevent it happening
                          > > to me.
                          > >
                          > > Human nature and the nature of the internet has created a society that
                          > > frequently uses the keyboard to do their thinking and take their frustration
                          > > out quickly for an easy fix to their frustration and it might not be
                          > > justified in many cases and yet you have essentially defamed someone, which
                          > > is liable, and they then have recourse to seek restitution from those who
                          > > initiated the remarks and the medium they used to disseminate those remarks.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > In the absence of the accused to defend themselves this naming process
                          > > becomes a kangaroo court and the offender is tried and found guilty in
                          > > absentia. I ask is this really what we are about?
                          > >
                          > > thoughtfully yours
                          > > Garth Hamilton
                          > >
                          > > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com <z_scale%40yahoogroups.com>, "hasbro"
                          > > <ljsnyder@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com <z_scale%40yahoogroups.com>, ztrack@wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > All,
                          > > > >
                          > > > > This can be a touchy topic. I have seen my fair share of cheats come
                          > > > > through are Z scale family. Each time this happens, they take more away
                          > > then just
                          > > > > the money or products they absconded with. The take away trust.
                          > > >
                          > > > <snip>
                          > > >
                          > > > Good points Rob,
                          > > >
                          > > > Maybe it is high time we start policing ourselves a bit more, not in a
                          > > vindictive sort of way, but after having given the alleged offender ample
                          > > opportunity to right the wrong and getting no response, then maybe posting
                          > > names for the world to see would be the best way to monitor ourselves.
                          > > >
                          > > > We all need to be accountable to the rest of the community.
                          > > >
                          > > > "Own our actions"
                          > > >
                          > > > What think ye?
                          > > > Loren
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --
                          > *...don a* *- Northern Ohio, USA*
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • ronaldjhurley
                          I tend to agree with Garth here. We have to be very careful about potentially damaging comments concerning individuals. I think a better way is to have some
                          Message 12 of 19 , Sep 23, 2010
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                            I tend to agree with Garth here. We have to be very careful about potentially damaging comments concerning individuals. I think a better way is to have some sort of central clearing house modeled on the Better Business Bureau. Consumers can check on plumbers, car repair shops etc and see if complaints have been filed. Does such a thing exist for model railroad e-sellers? I don't know but it would seem to be useful. I could check on John Jones Enterprises before I send them my semi-hard earned cash.

                            ron
                          • Gert Velthuizen
                            My friends, Let s stop this negative energy item and move on with the good stuff: our common hobby, model railroading in Z scale. We have been warned enough I
                            Message 13 of 19 , Sep 23, 2010
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                              My friends,



                              Let's stop this negative energy item and move on with the good stuff: our common hobby, model railroading in Z scale.



                              We have been warned enough I guess, let's not get into the trap of one more step and be confronted with legal action. Don't waste anymore energy, bits and bites, forumspace or whatever on people who want to take advantage in not just the most decent way. There will always be people like that, but keep in mind that there are far, far, far more people out there with the RIGHT attitude and the RIGHT spirit. Let's all enjoy them. Focus on the really good stuff, the fun we all have!



                              Have a wonderfull weekend,



                              Gert


                              > To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                              > From: zbarr474@...
                              > Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 18:41:41 -0400
                              > Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: Status of bad purchasers and sellers?
                              >
                              > *..well, a name gets posted. Obviously the name owner can respond. If the
                              > response is legitimate I think the stigma will go away pretty promptly.
                              > OTOH no response pretty much says that maybe the complainer has a legitimate
                              > complaint.
                              >
                              > ...don
                              >
                              >
                              > *
                              > On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 4:50 PM, Garth <garth.a.hamilton@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > I have some grave concerns about this whole matter. I am not sure that I
                              > > have an answer that will fill the bill so I offer the following for
                              > > discussion and consideration.
                              > >
                              > > I see a real concern in the possibility of abuse of our group and the
                              > > easiness of forever marking a person whether earned or not. Yes I have been
                              > > ripped off and by someone who I considered a friend as well as strangers in
                              > > the past. While it has not changed the way I deal with people I consider
                              > > friends it has perhaps tempered who I allow in that inside circle somewhat
                              > > and it has tightened up how I deal with others at flea markets and with
                              > > internet sales. Am I immune to this type of behavior, probably not, but it
                              > > makes me feel better, that I am doing my bit to try and prevent it happening
                              > > to me.
                              > >
                              > > Human nature and the nature of the internet has created a society that
                              > > frequently uses the keyboard to do their thinking and take their frustration
                              > > out quickly for an easy fix to their frustration and it might not be
                              > > justified in many cases and yet you have essentially defamed someone, which
                              > > is liable, and they then have recourse to seek restitution from those who
                              > > initiated the remarks and the medium they used to disseminate those remarks.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > In the absence of the accused to defend themselves this naming process
                              > > becomes a kangaroo court and the offender is tried and found guilty in
                              > > absentia. I ask is this really what we are about?
                              > >
                              > > thoughtfully yours
                              > > Garth Hamilton
                              > >
                              > > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com <z_scale%40yahoogroups.com>, "hasbro"
                              > > <ljsnyder@...> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com <z_scale%40yahoogroups.com>, ztrack@wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > All,
                              > > > >
                              > > > > This can be a touchy topic. I have seen my fair share of cheats come
                              > > > > through are Z scale family. Each time this happens, they take more away
                              > > then just
                              > > > > the money or products they absconded with. The take away trust.
                              > > >
                              > > > <snip>
                              > > >
                              > > > Good points Rob,
                              > > >
                              > > > Maybe it is high time we start policing ourselves a bit more, not in a
                              > > vindictive sort of way, but after having given the alleged offender ample
                              > > opportunity to right the wrong and getting no response, then maybe posting
                              > > names for the world to see would be the best way to monitor ourselves.
                              > > >
                              > > > We all need to be accountable to the rest of the community.
                              > > >
                              > > > "Own our actions"
                              > > >
                              > > > What think ye?
                              > > > Loren
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --
                              > *...don a* *- Northern Ohio, USA*
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > Z-scale: minimum siZe, MAXIMUM enjoyment!
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Ray Cannon
                              Garth, I think you worry too much about the feelings of the perp s. It s more important that the rest of us are warned about the undependable vendors. So far I
                              Message 14 of 19 , Sep 24, 2010
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Garth,

                                I think you worry too much about the feelings of the perp's.

                                It's more important that the rest of us are warned about the undependable
                                vendors. So far I have not seen any comments about something which happened
                                "yesterday". The problems being reported have been going on for quite some
                                time.

                                There is already too much political correctness in this world.

                                Ray

                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "Garth" <garth.a.hamilton@...>
                                To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 4:50 PM
                                Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: Status of bad purchasers and sellers?


                                >I have some grave concerns about this whole matter. I am not sure that I
                                >have an answer that will fill the bill so I offer the following for
                                >discussion and consideration.
                                >
                                > I see a real concern in the possibility of abuse of our group and the
                                > easiness of forever marking a person whether earned or not. Yes I have
                                > been ripped off and by someone who I considered a friend as well as
                                > strangers in the past. While it has not changed the way I deal with people
                                > I consider friends it has perhaps tempered who I allow in that inside
                                > circle somewhat and it has tightened up how I deal with others at flea
                                > markets and with internet sales. Am I immune to this type of behavior,
                                > probably not, but it makes me feel better, that I am doing my bit to try
                                > and prevent it happening to me.
                                >
                                > Human nature and the nature of the internet has created a society that
                                > frequently uses the keyboard to do their thinking and take their
                                > frustration out quickly for an easy fix to their frustration and it might
                                > not be justified in many cases and yet you have essentially defamed
                                > someone, which is liable, and they then have recourse to seek restitution
                                > from those who initiated the remarks and the medium they used to
                                > disseminate those remarks.
                                >
                                > In the absence of the accused to defend themselves this naming process
                                > becomes a kangaroo court and the offender is tried and found guilty in
                                > absentia. I ask is this really what we are about?
                                >
                                > thoughtfully yours
                                > Garth Hamilton
                                >
                                > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "hasbro" <ljsnyder@...> wrote:
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >> --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, ztrack@ wrote:
                                >> >
                                >> > All,
                                >> >
                                >> > This can be a touchy topic. I have seen my fair share of cheats come
                                >> > through are Z scale family. Each time this happens, they take more away
                                >> > then just
                                >> > the money or products they absconded with. The take away trust.
                                >>
                                >> <snip>
                                >>
                                >> Good points Rob,
                                >>
                                >> Maybe it is high time we start policing ourselves a bit more, not in a
                                >> vindictive sort of way, but after having given the alleged offender ample
                                >> opportunity to right the wrong and getting no response, then maybe
                                >> posting names for the world to see would be the best way to monitor
                                >> ourselves.
                                >>
                                >> We all need to be accountable to the rest of the community.
                                >>
                                >> "Own our actions"
                                >>
                                >> What think ye?
                                >> Loren
                                >>
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------
                                >
                                > Z-scale: minimum siZe, MAXIMUM enjoyment!
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                              • de Champeaux Dominique
                                That sounds like, indeed... Dom
                                Message 15 of 19 , Sep 24, 2010
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  That sounds like, indeed... <rolling eyes>
                                  Dom



                                  > sounds like he is in the same boat as Alan Borg?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                  > CC: mcleavel@...
                                  > From: alan@...
                                  > Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 16:20:00 +0100

                                  > > Does anybody know what's up with Robert Dressel? He
                                  > owes me a large sum
                                  > > of $$$$$$, but will not answer my e-mails. The e-mail
                                  > address I have for
                                  > > him is: rdressel@...
                                  > > and my e-mails don't bounce. So I infer that he's
                                  > getting them.
                                  >
                                  > Not always a reliable assumption - they may just be going
                                  > into the spam
                                  > bucket.
                                  >
                                  > Google is your friend however - and Google last saw him
                                  > posting on the
                                  > Atlas RR forum in June....
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >    
                                  >         
                                  >           
                                  >  
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ------------------------------------
                                  >
                                  > Z-scale:  minimum siZe, MAXIMUM enjoyment!
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >     z_scale-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • de Champeaux Dominique
                                  And maybe we could ask our webmaster to add a permanent chapter in this forum (and we could do the same in Trainboard, Zcentralstation, etc) in which we
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Sep 24, 2010
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    And maybe we could ask our webmaster to add a permanent "chapter" in this forum (and we could do the same in Trainboard, Zcentralstation, etc) in which we could write any thief's name. Every guy seeming to lead to issues when speaking of deals. So every time one plans to do any business with other people, he just keeps an eye on the list in order to be sure of his deal... A sort of "black list" indeed.
                                     
                                    Dom
                                     
                                     
                                     


                                    --- En date de : Jeu 23.9.10, hasbro <ljsnyder@...> a écrit :


                                    De: hasbro <ljsnyder@...>
                                    Objet: [Z_Scale] Re: Status of Robert Dressel?
                                    À: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Jeudi 23 septembre 2010, 19h51


                                     





                                    --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, ztrack@... wrote:
                                    >
                                    > All,
                                    >
                                    > This can be a touchy topic. I have seen my fair share of cheats come
                                    > through are Z scale family. Each time this happens, they take more away then just
                                    > the money or products they absconded with. The take away trust.

                                    <snip>

                                    Good points Rob,

                                    Maybe it is high time we start policing ourselves a bit more, not in a vindictive sort of way, but after having given the alleged offender ample opportunity to right the wrong and getting no response, then maybe posting names for the world to see would be the best way to monitor ourselves.

                                    We all need to be accountable to the rest of the community.

                                    "Own our actions"

                                    What think ye?
                                    Loren











                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • de Champeaux Dominique
                                    Garth you re certainly right but speaking of these guys (Borg, Dressel, etc..), you can be sure that if their names appear here in this series of posts, it s
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Sep 24, 2010
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Garth you're certainly right but speaking of these guys (Borg, Dressel, etc..), you can be sure that if their names appear here in this series of posts, it's that because several z-scalers had issues with them. And I guess the beginning is still the same: the complainant customers/sellers, still waiting for their stuff/money, send numerous emails to which they obtain no reply (my case with Borg). First we see no harm for us. On the opposite we are concerned about the guy's health or anything else.
                                       
                                      But when finally we are aware that the guys is still wandering here and there and furthermore still having the same email/phone number/ home address, we get to the conclusion something has gone wrong in that guy's mind. And since there I see no concern about warning other people about any business with these.
                                       
                                      Dom
                                       
                                       
                                       

                                      --- En date de : Ven 24.9.10, Garth <garth.a.hamilton@...> a écrit :


                                      De: Garth <garth.a.hamilton@...>
                                      Objet: [Z_Scale] Re: Status of bad purchasers and sellers?
                                      À: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                      Date: Vendredi 24 septembre 2010, 2h14


                                       



                                      Not everyone is a member if you can prove he is a member that might be legitimate but I still do not think silence should be a prerequisite for a guilty finding.

                                      cheerz Garth

                                      --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Don Avila <zbarr474@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > *..well, a name gets posted. Obviously the name owner can respond. If the
                                      > response is legitimate I think the stigma will go away pretty promptly.
                                      > OTOH no response pretty much says that maybe the complainer has a legitimate
                                      > complaint.
                                      >
                                      > ...don
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > *
                                      > On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 4:50 PM, Garth <garth.a.hamilton@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > I have some grave concerns about this whole matter. I am not sure that I
                                      > > have an answer that will fill the bill so I offer the following for
                                      > > discussion and consideration.
                                      > >
                                      > > I see a real concern in the possibility of abuse of our group and the
                                      > > easiness of forever marking a person whether earned or not. Yes I have been
                                      > > ripped off and by someone who I considered a friend as well as strangers in
                                      > > the past. While it has not changed the way I deal with people I consider
                                      > > friends it has perhaps tempered who I allow in that inside circle somewhat
                                      > > and it has tightened up how I deal with others at flea markets and with
                                      > > internet sales. Am I immune to this type of behavior, probably not, but it
                                      > > makes me feel better, that I am doing my bit to try and prevent it happening
                                      > > to me.
                                      > >
                                      > > Human nature and the nature of the internet has created a society that
                                      > > frequently uses the keyboard to do their thinking and take their frustration
                                      > > out quickly for an easy fix to their frustration and it might not be
                                      > > justified in many cases and yet you have essentially defamed someone, which
                                      > > is liable, and they then have recourse to seek restitution from those who
                                      > > initiated the remarks and the medium they used to disseminate those remarks.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > In the absence of the accused to defend themselves this naming process
                                      > > becomes a kangaroo court and the offender is tried and found guilty in
                                      > > absentia. I ask is this really what we are about?
                                      > >
                                      > > thoughtfully yours
                                      > > Garth Hamilton
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com <z_scale%40yahoogroups.com>, "hasbro"
                                      > > <ljsnyder@> wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com <z_scale%40yahoogroups.com>, ztrack@wrote:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > All,
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > This can be a touchy topic. I have seen my fair share of cheats come
                                      > > > > through are Z scale family. Each time this happens, they take more away
                                      > > then just
                                      > > > > the money or products they absconded with. The take away trust.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > <snip>
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Good points Rob,
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Maybe it is high time we start policing ourselves a bit more, not in a
                                      > > vindictive sort of way, but after having given the alleged offender ample
                                      > > opportunity to right the wrong and getting no response, then maybe posting
                                      > > names for the world to see would be the best way to monitor ourselves.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > We all need to be accountable to the rest of the community.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > "Own our actions"
                                      > > >
                                      > > > What think ye?
                                      > > > Loren
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --
                                      > *...don a* *- Northern Ohio, USA*
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >











                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • de Champeaux Dominique
                                      OK Gert, just reading your mail I follow your statement. I revert to Z myself. And group, I will shortly show you what I have done of my guinea pig UP GP35
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Sep 24, 2010
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        OK Gert, just reading your mail I follow your statement. I revert to Z myself. And group, I will shortly show you what I have done of my "guinea pig" UP GP35 that now wears a Genesee & Wyoming paintscheme, prelude to full Ferrocarril Chiapas Mayab paintscheme and markings. <wink>
                                         
                                        Dom
                                         
                                         
                                         


                                        --- En date de : Ven 24.9.10, Gert Velthuizen <gertvelthuizen@...> a écrit :


                                        De: Gert Velthuizen <gertvelthuizen@...>
                                        Objet: RE: [Z_Scale] Re: Status of bad purchasers and sellers?
                                        À: "Z schaal wereldvrienden" <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Date: Vendredi 24 septembre 2010, 8h35


                                         




                                        My friends,

                                        Let's stop this negative energy item and move on with the good stuff: our common hobby, model railroading in Z scale.

                                        We have been warned enough I guess, let's not get into the trap of one more step and be confronted with legal action. Don't waste anymore energy, bits and bites, forumspace or whatever on people who want to take advantage in not just the most decent way. There will always be people like that, but keep in mind that there are far, far, far more people out there with the RIGHT attitude and the RIGHT spirit. Let's all enjoy them. Focus on the really good stuff, the fun we all have!

                                        Have a wonderfull weekend,

                                        Gert

                                        > To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                        > From: zbarr474@...
                                        > Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 18:41:41 -0400
                                        > Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: Status of bad purchasers and sellers?
                                        >
                                        > *..well, a name gets posted. Obviously the name owner can respond. If the
                                        > response is legitimate I think the stigma will go away pretty promptly.
                                        > OTOH no response pretty much says that maybe the complainer has a legitimate
                                        > complaint.
                                        >
                                        > ...don
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > *
                                        > On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 4:50 PM, Garth <garth.a.hamilton@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > I have some grave concerns about this whole matter. I am not sure that I
                                        > > have an answer that will fill the bill so I offer the following for
                                        > > discussion and consideration.
                                        > >
                                        > > I see a real concern in the possibility of abuse of our group and the
                                        > > easiness of forever marking a person whether earned or not. Yes I have been
                                        > > ripped off and by someone who I considered a friend as well as strangers in
                                        > > the past. While it has not changed the way I deal with people I consider
                                        > > friends it has perhaps tempered who I allow in that inside circle somewhat
                                        > > and it has tightened up how I deal with others at flea markets and with
                                        > > internet sales. Am I immune to this type of behavior, probably not, but it
                                        > > makes me feel better, that I am doing my bit to try and prevent it happening
                                        > > to me.
                                        > >
                                        > > Human nature and the nature of the internet has created a society that
                                        > > frequently uses the keyboard to do their thinking and take their frustration
                                        > > out quickly for an easy fix to their frustration and it might not be
                                        > > justified in many cases and yet you have essentially defamed someone, which
                                        > > is liable, and they then have recourse to seek restitution from those who
                                        > > initiated the remarks and the medium they used to disseminate those remarks.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > In the absence of the accused to defend themselves this naming process
                                        > > becomes a kangaroo court and the offender is tried and found guilty in
                                        > > absentia. I ask is this really what we are about?
                                        > >
                                        > > thoughtfully yours
                                        > > Garth Hamilton
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com <z_scale%40yahoogroups.com>, "hasbro"
                                        > > <ljsnyder@...> wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com <z_scale%40yahoogroups.com>, ztrack@wrote:
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > All,
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > This can be a touchy topic. I have seen my fair share of cheats come
                                        > > > > through are Z scale family. Each time this happens, they take more away
                                        > > then just
                                        > > > > the money or products they absconded with. The take away trust.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > <snip>
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Good points Rob,
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Maybe it is high time we start policing ourselves a bit more, not in a
                                        > > vindictive sort of way, but after having given the alleged offender ample
                                        > > opportunity to right the wrong and getting no response, then maybe posting
                                        > > names for the world to see would be the best way to monitor ourselves.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > We all need to be accountable to the rest of the community.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > "Own our actions"
                                        > > >
                                        > > > What think ye?
                                        > > > Loren
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --
                                        > *...don a* *- Northern Ohio, USA*
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ------------------------------------
                                        >
                                        > Z-scale: minimum siZe, MAXIMUM enjoyment!
                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Gert Velthuizen
                                        Dear friendZ, How much I agree the way of thinking of Loren, I do want to alert everyone not to bee too hasty. You might be too quick in your judgment and
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Oct 4, 2010
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Dear friendZ,



                                          How much I agree the way of thinking of Loren, I do want to alert everyone not to bee too hasty. You might be too quick in your judgment and speaking of them, there are judges who can take care of these people. These judges are pro's we are not!

                                          I was stunned with this writing of our honorable friend Loren, since the USA is known (at least with us at the other side of the Atlantic) for the easy steps towards legal action. His writing moves towards a way of "tar and feathers" (should make a nice miniscene of a layout...) and please be carefull with that, maybe better DON'T do this. The first mistake in the judgement of the Z scale forum can demolish everything since the "bad"guys have the tool of the legal system too!



                                          Keep in mind that your easier covered in shit than in gold.



                                          Don't give nasty guys the opportunity to rip you by using of the legal system.



                                          I still understand the hate feelings towards some people, try and not let them rip you of your mood, your humor, your hobby! Still the warmings are received in good order, but (for me too) just a little late, just hope we have saved loads of friendZ this shit.


                                          Once again I ask you to not spend anymore energy on these people, simply becasue they ar not worth it.



                                          Have a great time, I will,



                                          Gert








                                          To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                          From: ljsnyder@...
                                          Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 17:12:24 +0000
                                          Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: Making each one of us accountable to the group






                                          --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, ztrack@... wrote:
                                          >
                                          > All,
                                          >
                                          > This can be a touchy topic.
                                          <snip>
                                          > Rob

                                          Rob,
                                          Your points on dealing with each other in business related issues is well stated and appropriate.

                                          After thinking about this a bit and seeing other responses by those with comments and those who have added other names to the list of alleged offenders, I offer the following thoughts and suggestion.....

                                          We all will acknowledge that this world is becoming filled more and more with dishonest, hurtful individuals who if left to their own devices will in all likelihood, continue to behave in a manner that causes both physical, emotional, and economic harm.

                                          Many now days don't want to or are unwilling to accept responsibility for their actions. In other words, they won't own their misdeeds. There is a very dire shortage of folks who are willing to be accountable for their actions.

                                          Perhaps it is high time that we call out the dishonest. We as a Z family, even though it is a small community by the world's standards, have the ability amongst ourselves to monitor each other and hold each other accountable.

                                          Maybe it is high time we make public anyone who has defrauded another member of our family. In other words, maybe we should collectively 'blow the whistle' on those who do not act honestly.

                                          I realize this could easily become a platform for crucifying anyone we did not like personally and I know that each one of us has probably those on the side lines who dislike us for one reason or another.

                                          If there was someone who had not dealt honestly with another, and after having made honest repeated attempts to settle the dispute,and having given the alleged offender ample opportunity to make things right, then the injured party should post the name of the offender for all the world to see.

                                          We need to hold each other accountable in our business dealings and this could be a way to (and I hesitate to use the word 'police' each other) have each one of us be totally honest.

                                          The main problem in being a self governing body is that people by nature are selfish and full of pent up envy and strife in general and it is easy to let our nature get the best of us and rule our actions and words.

                                          If we can be totally honest with ourselves and consider the golden rule of 'doing unto others as we would have others do unto us' then perhaps we could make our Z community more honest, and have the highest standards of any modeling group.

                                          So, maybe we should all become whistle blowers, but only after searching our own conscience and asking ourselves, "is this action on my part totally above board and meant only to protect and not to slander or hurt?

                                          Enough of my sermonizing, but I just thought it was an opportunity to help the Z family become all it can be.

                                          I am not inviting arrows be slung my way, but if there is anyone out there who feels I have wronged them in any way, I invite you to 'privately' address me with your concern.

                                          For a better world..........is that possible?

                                          Loren
                                          Z Train Things and Stonebridge Models.






                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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