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Z SCALE

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  • tony_mrr
    CAN SOMEONE CONFORM FOR ME THAT THE WAY TO USE 3 MARKLIN Z POWER PACKS ON 3 CONNECTED BUT ISOLATED LOOPS IS TO CONNECT THE BROWN WIRE ON EACH PACK TO EACH
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 1 11:13 PM
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      CAN SOMEONE CONFORM FOR ME THAT THE WAY TO USE 3 MARKLIN Z POWER PACKS ON 3 CONNECTED BUT ISOLATED LOOPS IS TO CONNECT THE BROWN WIRE ON EACH PACK TO EACH OTHER AND TO ONE RAIL OF EACH LOOP AND THE RED OF EACH POWER PACK TO THE OTHER RAIL.

      SHOULD I CONNECT RED INSTEAD OF BROWN

      TONY
    • Garth
      Tony; You do not connect anything from one power pack to another. You connect the brown and red to opposite rials in one block which is totally isolated from
      Message 2 of 10 , Aug 2 6:14 AM
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        Tony;

        You do not connect anything from one power pack to another. You connect the brown and red to opposite rials in one block which is totally isolated from the others with insulators on the rails. When you run a train across the block boundary the polarity of the two power packs has to match or the engine will arrive at the block boundary and do a bit of a dance back and forth and if left you could burn out the motor.

        In Z the power to the track is DC so no interconnection between power packs is required with Marklin controllers if they were designed for Z.

        If you connect the power packs as you described the first and get then running then the first time you reversed one of them you would create a short circuit.

        SO again in DC operation each loop is totally isolated from the other and served by one power pack. There is wiring that allows you with block wiring allows you to choose which power pack you are going to sue for any one block but ensures that only one at a time is connect to any one block.

        cheerz Garth

        --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "tony_mrr" <tony_mrr@...> wrote:
        >
        > CAN SOMEONE CONFORM FOR ME THAT THE WAY TO USE 3 MARKLIN Z POWER PACKS ON 3 CONNECTED BUT ISOLATED LOOPS IS TO CONNECT THE BROWN WIRE ON EACH PACK TO EACH OTHER AND TO ONE RAIL OF EACH LOOP AND THE RED OF EACH POWER PACK TO THE OTHER RAIL.
        >
        > SHOULD I CONNECT RED INSTEAD OF BROWN
        >
        > TONY
        >
      • Tony Dalileo
        dear garth my layout only isolates only one rail using marklin 8588 isolation track. is there no way to have a common ground tony
        Message 3 of 10 , Aug 2 10:42 PM
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          dear garth

          my layout only isolates only one rail using marklin 8588 isolation track.

          is there no way to have a common ground


          tony



          --- On Mon, 8/2/10, Garth <garth.a.hamilton@...> wrote:

          > From: Garth <garth.a.hamilton@...>
          > Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: Z SCALE
          > To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Monday, August 2, 2010, 1:14 PM
          > Tony;
          >
          > You do not connect anything from one power pack to another.
          > You connect the brown and red to opposite rials in one block
          > which is totally isolated from the others with insulators on
          > the rails. When you run a train across the block boundary
          > the polarity of the two power packs has to match or the
          > engine will arrive at the block boundary and do a bit of a
          > dance back and forth and if left you could burn out the
          > motor.
          >
          > In Z the power to the track is DC so no interconnection
          > between power packs is required with Marklin controllers if
          > they were designed for Z.
          >
          > If you connect the power packs as you described the first
          > and get then running then the first time you reversed one of
          > them you would create a short circuit.
          >
          > SO again in DC operation each loop is totally isolated from
          > the other and served by one power pack. There is wiring that
          > allows you with block wiring allows you to choose which
          > power pack you are going to sue for any one block but
          > ensures that only one at a time is connect to any one block.
          >
          >
          > cheerz Garth
          >
          > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com,
          > "tony_mrr" <tony_mrr@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > CAN SOMEONE CONFORM FOR ME THAT THE WAY TO USE 3
          > MARKLIN Z POWER PACKS ON 3 CONNECTED BUT ISOLATED LOOPS IS
          > TO CONNECT THE BROWN WIRE ON EACH PACK TO EACH OTHER AND TO
          > ONE RAIL OF EACH LOOP AND THE RED OF EACH POWER PACK TO THE
          > OTHER RAIL.
          > >
          > > SHOULD I CONNECT RED INSTEAD OF BROWN
          > >
          > > TONY
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Z-scale:  minimum siZe, MAXIMUM enjoyment!
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >     z_scale-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >
        • Garth
          With DC track power you are switching the polarity of the power to the rails back and forth to make your engine go forward or backward. So you can use a common
          Message 4 of 10 , Aug 3 5:22 AM
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            With DC track power you are switching the polarity of the power to the rails back and forth to make your engine go forward or backward. So you can use a common only with one power pack as the supply source but not with multiple power packs because as soon as you change the direction of one power pack in a multiple power pack with common on one rail you create problem where you have one rail above ground/common and one below and if you try driving a loco across the gap between the two blocks you now have twice the voltage and amperage in the short and you do damage to your loco. The track power at the gap is trying to drive the engine on one side of the gap to the other and on reaching the other side to drive it back and next you know there is a puff of smoke and the motor is gone. The isolation track you talk of I have only seen it used to create automatic stop and go and signalling features not as block boundaries. I use the insulated rail joiners on both rails at a block boundary or cut the rails and fill the gap with epoxy to prevent track expansion from closing it.

            cheerz Garth

            --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Tony Dalileo <tony_mrr@...> wrote:
            >
            > dear garth
            >
            > my layout only isolates only one rail using marklin 8588 isolation track.
            >
            > is there no way to have a common ground
            >
            >
            > tony
            >
            >
            >
            > --- On Mon, 8/2/10, Garth <garth.a.hamilton@...> wrote:
            >
            > > From: Garth <garth.a.hamilton@...>
            > > Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: Z SCALE
            > > To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
            > > Date: Monday, August 2, 2010, 1:14 PM
            > > Tony;
            > >
            > > You do not connect anything from one power pack to another.
            > > You connect the brown and red to opposite rials in one block
            > > which is totally isolated from the others with insulators on
            > > the rails. When you run a train across the block boundary
            > > the polarity of the two power packs has to match or the
            > > engine will arrive at the block boundary and do a bit of a
            > > dance back and forth and if left you could burn out the
            > > motor.
            > >
            > > In Z the power to the track is DC so no interconnection
            > > between power packs is required with Marklin controllers if
            > > they were designed for Z.
            > >
            > > If you connect the power packs as you described the first
            > > and get then running then the first time you reversed one of
            > > them you would create a short circuit.
            > >
            > > SO again in DC operation each loop is totally isolated from
            > > the other and served by one power pack. There is wiring that
            > > allows you with block wiring allows you to choose which
            > > power pack you are going to sue for any one block but
            > > ensures that only one at a time is connect to any one block.
            > >
            > >
            > > cheerz Garth
            > >
            > > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com,
            > > "tony_mrr" <tony_mrr@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > CAN SOMEONE CONFORM FOR ME THAT THE WAY TO USE 3
            > > MARKLIN Z POWER PACKS ON 3 CONNECTED BUT ISOLATED LOOPS IS
            > > TO CONNECT THE BROWN WIRE ON EACH PACK TO EACH OTHER AND TO
            > > ONE RAIL OF EACH LOOP AND THE RED OF EACH POWER PACK TO THE
            > > OTHER RAIL.
            > > >
            > > > SHOULD I CONNECT RED INSTEAD OF BROWN
            > > >
            > > > TONY
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------
            > >
            > > Z-scale:  minimum siZe, MAXIMUM enjoyment!
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >     z_scale-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
          • Alan Cox
            On Mon, 2 Aug 2010 22:42:52 -0700 (PDT) ... You just need to be a bit more careful about when locomotives or stock can span the gaps. Avoiding a common ground
            Message 5 of 10 , Aug 3 6:24 AM
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              On Mon, 2 Aug 2010 22:42:52 -0700 (PDT)
              Tony Dalileo <tony_mrr@...> wrote:

              > dear garth
              >
              > my layout only isolates only one rail using marklin 8588 isolation track.
              >
              > is there no way to have a common ground

              You just need to be a bit more careful about when locomotives or stock
              can span the gaps. Avoiding a common ground doesn't really avoid that
              either - merely makes it less likely. Even without a common you can end
              up with a wheel across the gap on one rail and the voltage difference
              across the trucks the other side. Ditto with Maklin overhead and a loco
              on the track backwards.

              As far as I can tell (on the basis of having done this a few times)
              Märklin stock is at least engineered to survive brief incidents of this
              type. The modern Marklin power units also seem to be reasonably smart
              about shorts.

              For loops I see no reason to connect one side of the supplies together as
              it's not as if it makes the wiring much simpler - for block sections it
              can although there at least you can have an intermediate block which can
              be switched from one supply to the other - something you don't have room
              for between loops usually.

              Alan
            • Tony Dalileo
              dear garth thank you. can i cut a gap in the uncut rail on the isolation track to do the job. the marklin isolation pins dont hold track together very well
              Message 6 of 10 , Aug 3 9:04 AM
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                dear garth

                thank you. can i cut a gap in the uncut rail on the isolation track to do the job. the marklin isolation pins dont hold track together very well and the metal connector that comes on the marklin track are attached into the plastic and i cant get then off without damaging the track.

                how do you solve these problems

                tony

                --- On Tue, 8/3/10, Garth <garth.a.hamilton@...> wrote:

                > From: Garth <garth.a.hamilton@...>
                > Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: Z SCALE
                > To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                > Date: Tuesday, August 3, 2010, 12:22 PM
                > With DC track power you are switching
                > the polarity of the power to the rails back and forth to
                > make your engine go forward or backward. So you can use a
                > common only with one power pack as the supply source but not
                > with multiple power packs because as soon as you change the
                > direction of one power pack in a multiple power pack with
                > common on one rail you create problem where you have one
                > rail above ground/common and one below and if you try
                > driving a loco across the gap between the two blocks you now
                > have twice the voltage and amperage in the short and you do
                > damage to your loco. The track power at the gap is trying to
                > drive the engine on one side of the gap to the other and on
                > reaching the other side to drive it back and next you know
                > there is a puff of smoke and the motor is gone. The
                > isolation track you talk of I have only seen it used to
                > create automatic stop and go and signalling features not as
                > block boundaries. I use the insulated rail joiners on both
                > rails at a block boundary or cut the rails and fill the gap
                > with epoxy to prevent track expansion from closing it.
                >
                > cheerz Garth
                >
                > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com,
                > Tony Dalileo <tony_mrr@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > dear garth
                > >
                > > my layout only isolates only one rail using marklin
                > 8588 isolation track.
                > >
                > > is there no way to have a common ground
                > >
                > >
                > > tony
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > --- On Mon, 8/2/10, Garth <garth.a.hamilton@...>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > > From: Garth <garth.a.hamilton@...>
                > > > Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: Z SCALE
                > > > To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                > > > Date: Monday, August 2, 2010, 1:14 PM
                > > > Tony;
                > > >
                > > > You do not connect anything from one power pack
                > to another.
                > > > You connect the brown and red to opposite rials
                > in one block
                > > > which is totally isolated from the others with
                > insulators on
                > > > the rails. When you run a train across the block
                > boundary
                > > > the polarity of the two power packs has to match
                > or the
                > > > engine will arrive at the block boundary and do a
                > bit of a
                > > > dance back and forth and if left you could burn
                > out the
                > > > motor.
                > > >
                > > > In Z the power to the track is DC so no
                > interconnection
                > > > between power packs is required with Marklin
                > controllers if
                > > > they were designed for Z.
                > > >
                > > > If you connect the power packs as you described
                > the first
                > > > and get then running then the first time you
                > reversed one of
                > > > them you would create a short circuit.
                > > >
                > > > SO again in DC operation each loop is totally
                > isolated from
                > > > the other and served by one power pack. There is
                > wiring that
                > > > allows you with block wiring allows you to choose
                > which
                > > > power pack you are going to sue for any one block
                > but
                > > > ensures that only one at a time is connect to any
                > one block.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > cheerz Garth
                > > >
                > > > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com,
                > > > "tony_mrr" <tony_mrr@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > CAN SOMEONE CONFORM FOR ME THAT THE WAY TO
                > USE 3
                > > > MARKLIN Z POWER PACKS ON 3 CONNECTED BUT ISOLATED
                > LOOPS IS
                > > > TO CONNECT THE BROWN WIRE ON EACH PACK TO EACH
                > OTHER AND TO
                > > > ONE RAIL OF EACH LOOP AND THE RED OF EACH POWER
                > PACK TO THE
                > > > OTHER RAIL.
                > > > >
                > > > > SHOULD I CONNECT RED INSTEAD OF BROWN
                > > > >
                > > > > TONY
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > ------------------------------------
                > > >
                > > > Z-scale:  minimum siZe, MAXIMUM enjoyment!
                > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >     z_scale-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Z-scale:  minimum siZe, MAXIMUM enjoyment!
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >     z_scale-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                >
                >
                >
              • Tony Dalileo
                dear alan so the reason my engines run independantly on the 2 loops with 2 power packs is that i havent gone across the gap. i have burned out the front
                Message 7 of 10 , Aug 3 9:16 AM
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                  dear alan

                  so the reason my engines run independantly on the 2 loops with 2 power packs is that i havent gone across the gap. i have burned out the front lights on my a-b-a engine set.

                  what i dont understand is when both loops are in difference directions then i have the plus side of one pack connected to the neg side of the other pack via the common rail why dont i get a short?

                  could the fact that the powerpacks are connected to the tracks via a 8590 terminal track which has a interference isolated between the pack and track. i assume that its for radio interference prevention but could it also be isolating the power packs and somehow allows the opposite polarity of 2 packs to be connected and not short out


                  tony



                  --- On Tue, 8/3/10, Alan Cox <alan@...> wrote:

                  > From: Alan Cox <alan@...>
                  > Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: Z SCALE
                  > To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Tuesday, August 3, 2010, 1:24 PM
                  > On Mon, 2 Aug 2010 22:42:52 -0700
                  > (PDT)
                  > Tony Dalileo <tony_mrr@...>
                  > wrote:
                  >
                  > > dear garth
                  > >
                  > > my layout only isolates only one rail using marklin
                  > 8588 isolation track.
                  > >
                  > > is there no way to have a common ground
                  >
                  > You just need to be a bit more careful about when
                  > locomotives or stock
                  > can span the gaps. Avoiding a common ground doesn't really
                  > avoid that
                  > either - merely makes it less likely. Even without a common
                  > you can end
                  > up with a wheel across the gap on one rail and the voltage
                  > difference
                  > across the trucks the other side. Ditto with Maklin
                  > overhead and a loco
                  > on the track backwards.
                  >
                  > As far as I can tell (on the basis of having done this a
                  > few times)
                  > Märklin stock is at least engineered to survive brief
                  > incidents of this
                  > type. The modern Marklin power units also seem to be
                  > reasonably smart
                  > about shorts.
                  >
                  > For loops I see no reason to connect one side of the
                  > supplies together as
                  > it's not as if it makes the wiring much simpler - for block
                  > sections it
                  > can although there at least you can have an intermediate
                  > block which can
                  > be switched from one supply to the other - something you
                  > don't have room
                  > for between loops usually.
                  >
                  > Alan
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Z-scale:  minimum siZe, MAXIMUM enjoyment!
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >     z_scale-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Alan Cox
                  ... Short answer: because electricity doesn t work like that - it s all relative. So providing there is only one side cross connected anywhere (which is the
                  Message 8 of 10 , Aug 3 10:04 AM
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                    > what i dont understand is when both loops are in difference directions then i have the plus side of one pack connected to the neg side of the other pack via the common rail why dont i get a short?

                    Short answer: because electricity doesn't work like that - it's all
                    relative. So providing there is only one side cross connected anywhere
                    (which is the case with a common return and Märklin controllers as they
                    each have their own transformer) then if you join them together one one
                    side that simply becomes a common voltage between the two. Join both
                    together and bad things happen.

                    If you join one side together and then connect a voltmeter across the
                    other two you'd see a voltage that varied according to how you turned the
                    knobs. With one on zero and the other turned you will see the voltage for
                    that one (-8 to +8 or thereabouts), turn them both the same way and you
                    will see a low voltage or even 0 if they were turned the same amount.
                    That is of course the normal case when you run a train between loops -
                    there is little voltage difference between the two loops.

                    The bad case is if you turn the knobs in opposite directions, you will
                    then see up to + or -16v on the voltmeter, which is more than the models
                    are designed to take in normal use.

                    They are a good deal more robust than you might think however because
                    they are designed to survive a variety of situations where the model
                    carries more power than you would like - just as they get a certain
                    amount of 'will it bounce' considered in the design strength.

                    Other scenarios that are usually considered in designing models include

                    - derailment where one truck comes off the track and ends up with the
                    wheels shorting the other rail. At this point the short is through the
                    wires in the locomotive

                    - Similarly where a locomotive moves from one section to another which
                    already contains a locomotive that is currently not being fed power. At
                    that point the second locomotive is potentially being powered through
                    the wiring of the first.

                    - Running through electrofrog points the wrong way

                    - Putting a locomotive using overhead on the track the wrong way around

                    But 16v across a model designed for 8 isn't very good for it - especially
                    if its more than briefly.

                    Alan
                  • Tony Dalileo
                    thank you how come my meter reads 14v dc on a marklin z power pack with no load on the track when model max is 8v dc can i isolate the other rail by putting a
                    Message 9 of 10 , Aug 3 1:34 PM
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                      thank you
                      how come my meter reads 14v dc on a marklin z power pack with no load on the track when model max is 8v dc


                      can i isolate the other rail by putting a cut in the uncut rail on a marklin 8588 isolation track or will that not work


                      tony



                      --- On Tue, 8/3/10, Alan Cox <alan@...> wrote:

                      > From: Alan Cox <alan@...>
                      > Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: Z SCALE
                      > To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                      > Date: Tuesday, August 3, 2010, 5:04 PM
                      > > what i dont understand is when
                      > both loops are in difference directions then i have the plus
                      > side of one pack connected to the neg side of the other pack
                      > via the common rail why dont i get a short?
                      >
                      > Short answer: because electricity doesn't work like that -
                      > it's all
                      > relative. So providing there is only one side cross
                      > connected anywhere
                      > (which is the case with a common return and Märklin
                      > controllers as they
                      > each have their own transformer) then if you join them
                      > together one one
                      > side that simply becomes a common voltage between the two.
                      > Join both
                      > together and bad things happen.
                      >
                      > If you join one side together and then connect a voltmeter
                      > across the
                      > other two you'd see a voltage that varied according to how
                      > you turned the
                      > knobs. With one on zero and the other turned you will see
                      > the voltage for
                      > that one (-8 to +8 or thereabouts), turn them both the same
                      > way and you
                      > will see a low voltage or even 0 if they were turned the
                      > same amount.
                      > That is of course the normal case when you run a train
                      > between loops -
                      > there is little voltage difference between the two loops.
                      >
                      > The bad case is if you turn the knobs in opposite
                      > directions, you will
                      > then see up to + or -16v on the voltmeter, which is more
                      > than the models
                      > are designed to take in normal use.
                      >
                      > They are a good deal more robust than you might think
                      > however because
                      > they are designed to survive a variety of situations where
                      > the model
                      > carries more power than you would like - just as they get a
                      > certain
                      > amount of 'will it bounce' considered in the design
                      > strength.
                      >
                      > Other scenarios that are usually considered in designing
                      > models include
                      >
                      > - derailment where one truck comes off the track and ends
                      > up with the
                      >   wheels shorting the other rail. At this point the
                      > short is through the
                      >   wires in the locomotive
                      >
                      > - Similarly where a locomotive moves from one section to
                      > another which
                      >   already contains a locomotive that is currently not
                      > being fed power. At
                      >   that point the second locomotive is potentially
                      > being powered through
                      >   the wiring of the first.
                      >
                      > - Running through electrofrog points the wrong way
                      >
                      > - Putting a locomotive using overhead on the track the
                      > wrong way around
                      >
                      > But 16v across a model designed for 8 isn't very good for
                      > it - especially
                      > if its more than briefly.
                      >
                      > Alan
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Z-scale:  minimum siZe, MAXIMUM enjoyment!
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >     z_scale-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Alan Cox
                      On Tue, 3 Aug 2010 13:34:11 -0700 (PDT) ... Put a load on it. The newer ones are also quite smart and don t simply output 0-8v smoothed DC but know how to give
                      Message 10 of 10 , Aug 3 1:51 PM
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                        On Tue, 3 Aug 2010 13:34:11 -0700 (PDT)
                        Tony Dalileo <tony_mrr@...> wrote:

                        > thank you
                        > how come my meter reads 14v dc on a marklin z power pack with no load on the track when model max is 8v dc

                        Put a load on it.

                        The newer ones are also quite smart and don't simply output 0-8v smoothed
                        DC but know how to give better motor control than that.
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