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Re: D51 Japanese Mikado at show yesterday.

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  • fredshark@earthlink.net
    Garth, Thank you for the insight. I have to admit that I am a bit intimated by the scale warning from Hobby Search. However, I am using MTL track on my
    Message 1 of 28 , Feb 5, 2010
      Garth,

      Thank you for the insight. I have to admit that I am a bit intimated by the scale warning from Hobby Search. However, I am using MTL track on my layout as well. So a personal examination and trail is in order! Thanks again.

      Cheers,

      Jeff


      -----Original Message-----
      >
      >Hi Jeff;
      >
      >I suspect the problem with the Marklin Curved turnout is the same one many have with the other steamers and that is the font pilot comes off the rails when it hits the point of the rail to enter the smaller radius. It is very light and small so no room for any additional weight. As far as my running I have no problem with it on Micro Trains Roadbed track and switches and on Peco track with Wright turnouts and hand laid track and turnouts made using code 40 rail and FastTrack jigs.
      >
      >I have no Marklin track but since 2002 I have worked on the Golden Blackhawk and Central City RR at National shows so I am familiar with the track and that curved turnout can be troublesome for other engines as well when running against the points. If you are patient and gentle you can notch the rail so the point is hidden or set into the rail on the outside of the curved rail and this makes it perform better.
      >
      >cheerz Garth
      >
      >--- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, fredshark@... wrote:
      >>
      >> Garth wrote: I had my D51 at a train show yesterday and it ran for 5 and a half hours straight without a stop at 2.5 volts pulling ten cars never got warm and other than the voltage is too small for the LED to really light up it was quite a hit.
      >>
      >> Garth,
      >>
      >> On the Hobby Search web site, http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10092803, there is the caveat for the D51 that states "Cannot run through a Marklin curve point due to partial difference in scale size." Have you had any difficulty running this locomotive on Marklin, or MTL for that matter, track? Thank you.
      >>
      >> Cheers,
      >>
      >> Jeff Walsh
      >>
    • Loren Snyder
      Reynard, I just inquired on Train Board and will here also. Do you think some good looking shells can be made to fit the chassis? Even scratch built perhaps
      Message 2 of 28 , Feb 5, 2010
        Reynard,
        I just inquired on Train Board and will here also. Do you think some good
        looking shells can be made to fit the chassis? Even scratch built perhaps
        by the masters of tiny?
        Loren

        -------Original Message-------

        From: Reynard Wellman
        Date: 2/5/2010 3:18:01 PM
        To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: D51 Japanese Mikado at show yesterday.

        Hi Garth etal,
        This is a very cute and nicely detailed steamer.
        Here is my first assessment:
        I have used hand calipers to measure the gauge width of
        the Tenshodo D51 Mikado vs the Marklin Mikado.
        These are first measurements with a Mitutoyo Digital
        caliper and without the benefit of a large Optical Comparator.
        (So your measurements may vary).

        1] There is a difference in Gauge:
        D51 = .243", (6,17 mm)
        Marklin Mikado = .249" (6,32 mm).

        2] Wheel Flange depth:
        D51 = .020", (0,51 mm)
        Marklin Mikado = .030", (0,76 mm).

        I will test run the D51 through MTL roadbed track later this
        week when I have the time. So performance is not yet
        a part of this impression.

        Peculiar looking Arnold style couplers that are scaled down
        from the standard N scale type. (Neither Marklin or MTL type).

        Overall, a very likable little steamer. Looks like it belongs more
        in the 1/240 scale realm of choo-choos though and that might be
        an odd place to aim for. We'll see after the operations tests.

        regardZ,
        Reynard
        http://www.micronart.com


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • pray59_3
        I am overjoyed that everyone is hesitant to order their D51 s, as they are on sale till the 11th of February, so as each version come in stock the next few
        Message 3 of 28 , Feb 5, 2010
          I am overjoyed that everyone is hesitant to order their D51's, as they are on sale till the 11th of February, so as each version come in stock the next few days, they will be re-priced from 5% off to 20% off for SAL shipping bonus, and I will be snapping them up! I got 7 so far! haha!

          Oh, by the way, they really do look and run beautiful, and that 16 wheel electrical pickup just hands down trumps ALL OTHER Z SCALE LOCOMOTIVES MANUFACTURED TO DATE!

          In fact, this tender electrically wired to a small Marklin steamer (non tank versing please) would make it a super smooth runner, even if you just leave the tender motor free spinning due to the extra 8 wheel electrical pickup tender!

          Just think if you were able to mount the universal joint to an extended motor shaft on the back of the Marklin steamer's motor, and have a dual motored loco!

          -Robert Ray
        • Reynard Wellman
          Hi Garth etal, This is a very cute and nicely detailed steamer. Here is my first assessment: I have used hand calipers to measure the gauge width of the
          Message 4 of 28 , Feb 5, 2010
            Hi Garth etal,
            This is a very cute and nicely detailed steamer.
            Here is my first assessment:
            I have used hand calipers to measure the gauge width of
            the Tenshodo D51 Mikado vs the Marklin Mikado.
            These are first measurements with a Mitutoyo Digital
            caliper and without the benefit of a large Optical Comparator.
            (So your measurements may vary).

            1] There is a difference in Gauge:
            D51 = .243", (6,17 mm)
            Marklin Mikado = .249" (6,32 mm).

            2] Wheel Flange depth:
            D51 = .020", (0,51 mm)
            Marklin Mikado = .030", (0,76 mm).

            I will test run the D51 through MTL roadbed track later this
            week when I have the time. So performance is not yet
            a part of this impression.

            Peculiar looking Arnold style couplers that are scaled down
            from the standard N scale type. (Neither Marklin or MTL type).

            Overall, a very likable little steamer. Looks like it belongs more
            in the 1/240 scale realm of choo-choos though and that might be
            an odd place to aim for. We'll see after the operations tests.

            regardZ,
            Reynard
            http://www.micronart.com
            On Feb 5, 2010, at 9:45 AM, fredshark@... wrote:

            > Garth,
            >
            > Thank you for the insight. I have to admit that I am a bit
            > intimated by the scale warning from Hobby Search. However, I am
            > using MTL track on my layout as well. So a personal examination and
            > trail is in order! Thanks again.
            >
            > Cheers,
            >
            > Jeff
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > >
            > >Hi Jeff;
            > >
            > >I suspect the problem with the Marklin Curved turnout is the same
            > one many have with the other steamers and that is the font pilot
            > comes off the rails when it hits the point of the rail to enter the
            > smaller radius. It is very light and small so no room for any
            > additional weight. As far as my running I have no problem with it
            > on Micro Trains Roadbed track and switches and on Peco track with
            > Wright turnouts and hand laid track and turnouts made using code 40
            > rail and FastTrack jigs.
            > >
            > >I have no Marklin track but since 2002 I have worked on the Golden
            > Blackhawk and Central City RR at National shows so I am familiar
            > with the track and that curved turnout can be troublesome for other
            > engines as well when running against the points. If you are patient
            > and gentle you can notch the rail so the point is hidden or set
            > into the rail on the outside of the curved rail and this makes it
            > perform better.
            > >
            > >cheerz Garth
            > >
            > >--- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, fredshark@... wrote:
            > >>
            > >> Garth wrote: I had my D51 at a train show yesterday and it ran
            > for 5 and a half hours straight without a stop at 2.5 volts pulling
            > ten cars never got warm and other than the voltage is too small for
            > the LED to really light up it was quite a hit.
            > >>
            > >> Garth,
            > >>
            > >> On the Hobby Search web site, http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/
            > 10092803, there is the caveat for the D51 that states "Cannot run
            > through a Marklin curve point due to partial difference in scale
            > size." Have you had any difficulty running this locomotive on
            > Marklin, or MTL for that matter, track? Thank you.
            > >>
            > >> Cheers,
            > >>
            > >> Jeff Walsh
            > >>
            >
            >
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Arnim v. Herff
            ... Hello Reynard. The gauge of our favorite Yellow Steamer *must* be wrong, as the prototype rolls on Cape-gauge (1067mm). (An American loco by Märklin
            Message 5 of 28 , Feb 5, 2010
              Am Samstag, 6. Februar 2010 02:16:52 schrieb Reynard Wellman:
              > 1] There is a difference in Gauge:
              > D51 = .243", (6,17 mm)
              > Marklin Mikado = .249" (6,32 mm).

              > Overall, a very likable little steamer. Looks like it belongs more
              > in the 1/240 scale realm of choo-choos though and that might be
              > an odd place to aim for. We'll see after the operations tests.

              Hello Reynard.

              The gauge of our favorite "Yellow Steamer" *must* be wrong, as the prototype
              rolls on "Cape-gauge" (1067mm). (An American loco by Märklin isn't a model
              but a toy...) In Z scale it should be 4,85mm... So in our standard-gauge-eyes
              a correct scaled narrow-gauge engine looks too small. Especially if
              proportions between body and wheel-gauge are definitely wrong. I don't own
              the model, but maybe you are so kind and measure the length. The prototype is
              19730mm long (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JNR_Class_D51) and has a diameter
              of driving-wheels of 1400mm (http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%e5%9b%bd%e9%89%84D51%e5%bd%a2%e8%92%b8%e6%b0%97%e6%a9%9f%e9%96%a2%e8%bb%8a)*.
              Should be 89,7mm and 6,4mm in Z.

              Maybe your estimation about 1/240 is the same phenomena, like a correct scaled
              American Z diesel looks in my European eyes like scale 1/200... ;-)

              Greetings Arnim


              * If you doesn't use unicode-fonts, it is possible that this link doesn't
              work. Than click on the English page at the left frame in the box "languages"
              the first link - and copy-paste the URL into your favorite
              translation-service.
            • Garth
              Well I did not go hog wild but I had preordered one of the two and ordered the plain jane version also with some of the card stock buildings so that makes 4
              Message 6 of 28 , Feb 5, 2010
                Well I did not go hog wild but I had preordered one of the two and ordered the plain jane version also with some of the card stock buildings so that makes 4 for me.

                I am sure it would be easy to put another shell on top of this mechanism. Will have to do some research as to what engines had drivers this size and I am sure they are either narrow gauge or industrial not main line steam.

                As too power an existing Marklin USRA engine with this tender I think it should be a fairly easy conversion. On my Web site www.nn3.ca there are several pictures of early pioneers of Nn3 who used tender mounted motors to power their narrow gauge Colorado engines. The just used the motor shaft from a burned out Marklin motor and mounted a brass block where the motor was with a clearance hole for the old shaft and gear and then connected up to a piano wire drive to the tender.

                I think my next job is to remove the coupler pocket on the rear truck of the tender and body mount a 905 on the tender for better operating as the knuckle tends to pop up under load as the box was designed for the Rapido coupler which of course has to rise over the other one when coupling.

                <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AmV4U7ro9Q>

                The above link shows my D51 moving 19 Japanese Freight cars from Crown on my 2 x 4 show test track oval. The camera is the one in my Ipod so not very sharp video but the best I can do currently.

                cheerz Garth

                --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "pray59_3" <pray59@...> wrote:
                >
                > I am overjoyed that everyone is hesitant to order their D51's, as they are on sale till the 11th of February, so as each version come in stock the next few days, they will be re-priced from 5% off to 20% off for SAL shipping bonus, and I will be snapping them up! I got 7 so far! haha!
                >
                > Oh, by the way, they really do look and run beautiful, and that 16 wheel electrical pickup just hands down trumps ALL OTHER Z SCALE LOCOMOTIVES MANUFACTURED TO DATE!
                >
                > In fact, this tender electrically wired to a small Marklin steamer (non tank versing please) would make it a super smooth runner, even if you just leave the tender motor free spinning due to the extra 8 wheel electrical pickup tender!
                >
                > Just think if you were able to mount the universal joint to an extended motor shaft on the back of the Marklin steamer's motor, and have a dual motored loco!
                >
                > -Robert Ray
                >
              • dpstripe@aol.com
                Reynard, The rapido/arnold couplers that come installed on the loc are compatible with Pro Z. The Knuckle type that are packed in the bottom of the box will
                Message 7 of 28 , Feb 5, 2010
                  Reynard,
                  The rapido/arnold couplers that come installed on the loc are compatible
                  with Pro Z. The Knuckle type that are packed in the bottom of the box will
                  couple (by five finger method) to MT, AZL and FT couplers.
                  Dan S.


                  In a message dated 2/5/2010 6:18:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                  micron@... writes:

                  Peculiar looking Arnold style couplers that are scaled down
                  from the standard N scale type. (Neither Marklin or MTL type).



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Garth
                  The knuckle coupler in the D51 box will auto couple with Micro Trains couplers and you can see it happening in the video of the D51 I posted on U-Tube.
                  Message 8 of 28 , Feb 5, 2010
                    The knuckle coupler in the D51 box will auto couple with Micro Trains couplers and you can see it happening in the video of the D51 I posted on U-Tube.

                    <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AmV4U7ro9Q>

                    cheerz Garth

                    --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, dpstripe@... wrote:
                    >
                    > Reynard,
                    > The rapido/arnold couplers that come installed on the loc are compatible
                    > with Pro Z. The Knuckle type that are packed in the bottom of the box will
                    > couple (by five finger method) to MT, AZL and FT couplers.
                    > Dan S.
                    >
                    >
                    > In a message dated 2/5/2010 6:18:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                    > micron@... writes:
                    >
                    > Peculiar looking Arnold style couplers that are scaled down
                    > from the standard N scale type. (Neither Marklin or MTL type).
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • Reynard Wellman
                    Hello Robert, I see that you have already run the D51 and must say that I am very impressed! I did some comparison photos of various Z steam locomotives and
                    Message 9 of 28 , Feb 5, 2010
                      Hello Robert,
                      I see that you have already run the D51 and must
                      say that I am very impressed! I did some comparison
                      photos of various Z steam locomotives and must
                      say that the D51 actually does look to be right on scale!
                      http://www.micronart.com/D51_comparison.html

                      Did you say that it has 16 wheel pickups or am I
                      misreading your post ?!!! That will put all other makers
                      of Z locos on notice. That's the kind of engineering our
                      little scale requires because there is not much room
                      for error at these finer dimensions.

                      I will test mine tomorrow for sure! I am prepared to
                      rescind my idea that this loco is not 1/220. Perhaps
                      our run-of-the-mill locos are the ones a little out of whack!
                      This product may very well raise the quality standards and
                      expectations that we deserve.

                      Thanks for your note,
                      Reynard
                      http://www.micronart.com
                      On Feb 5, 2010, at 4:26 PM, pray59_3 wrote:

                      > I am overjoyed that everyone is hesitant to order their D51's, as
                      > they are on sale till the 11th of February, so as each version come
                      > in stock the next few days, they will be re-priced from 5% off to
                      > 20% off for SAL shipping bonus, and I will be snapping them up! I
                      > got 7 so far! haha!
                      >
                      > Oh, by the way, they really do look and run beautiful, and that 16
                      > wheel electrical pickup just hands down trumps ALL OTHER Z SCALE
                      > LOCOMOTIVES MANUFACTURED TO DATE!
                      >
                      > In fact, this tender electrically wired to a small Marklin steamer
                      > (non tank versing please) would make it a super smooth runner, even
                      > if you just leave the tender motor free spinning due to the extra 8
                      > wheel electrical pickup tender!
                      >
                      > Just think if you were able to mount the universal joint to an
                      > extended motor shaft on the back of the Marklin steamer's motor,
                      > and have a dual motored loco!
                      >
                      > -Robert Ray
                      >
                      >
                      >



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Loren Snyder
                      Robert, Just how many do you plan to purchase and more importantly........why? Just curious. Loren ... From: pray59_3 Date: 2/5/2010 4:29:50 PM To:
                      Message 10 of 28 , Feb 5, 2010
                        Robert,
                        Just how many do you plan to purchase and more importantly........why?
                        Just curious.
                        Loren

                        -------Original Message-------

                        From: pray59_3
                        Date: 2/5/2010 4:29:50 PM
                        To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: D51 Japanese Mikado at show yesterday.

                        I am overjoyed that everyone is hesitant to order their D51's, as they are
                        on sale till the 11th of February, so as each version come in stock the next
                        few days, they will be re-priced from 5% off to 20% off for SAL shipping
                        bonus, and I will be snapping them up! I got 7 so far! haha!

                        Oh, by the way, they really do look and run beautiful, and that 16 wheel
                        electrical pickup just hands down trumps ALL OTHER Z SCALE LOCOMOTIVES
                        MANUFACTURED TO DATE!

                        In fact, this tender electrically wired to a small Marklin steamer (non tank
                        versing please) would make it a super smooth runner, even if you just leave
                        the tender motor free spinning due to the extra 8 wheel electrical pickup
                        tender!

                        Just think if you were able to mount the universal joint to an extended
                        motor shaft on the back of the Marklin steamer's motor, and have a dual
                        motored loco!

                        -Robert Ray




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Reynard Wellman
                        Hello Arnim, Yes, you are correct. The Tenshodo D51 does scale closely to the dimensions cited on the Wikipedia page. The length of engine with the tender is
                        Message 11 of 28 , Feb 5, 2010
                          Hello Arnim,
                          Yes, you are correct. The Tenshodo D51 does
                          scale closely to the dimensions cited on
                          the Wikipedia page. The length of engine with the tender is
                          approx 3.58" to 3.62" (20 M if 1/1).
                          Wheel diameter is approx .25" (1M 40cm if 1/1).

                          However, without a $10,000 comparator it's almost
                          impossible to say exactly. So it looks like most of
                          our Z scale stuff is slightly larger in all directions
                          than represented. But whose splitting hairs and counting
                          rivets?

                          This has been fun. I can't wait to run this puppy!

                          warm regardZ,
                          Reynard
                          http://www.micronart.com
                          On Feb 5, 2010, at 5:20 PM, Arnim v. Herff wrote:

                          > Am Samstag, 6. Februar 2010 02:16:52 schrieb Reynard Wellman:
                          > > 1] There is a difference in Gauge:
                          > > D51 = .243", (6,17 mm)
                          > > Marklin Mikado = .249" (6,32 mm).
                          >
                          > > Overall, a very likable little steamer. Looks like it belongs more
                          > > in the 1/240 scale realm of choo-choos though and that might be
                          > > an odd place to aim for. We'll see after the operations tests.
                          >
                          > Hello Reynard.
                          >
                          > The gauge of our favorite "Yellow Steamer" *must* be wrong, as the
                          > prototype
                          > rolls on "Cape-gauge" (1067mm). (An American loco by Märklin isn't
                          > a model
                          > but a toy...) In Z scale it should be 4,85mm... So in our standard-
                          > gauge-eyes
                          > a correct scaled narrow-gauge engine looks too small. Especially if
                          > proportions between body and wheel-gauge are definitely wrong. I
                          > don't own
                          > the model, but maybe you are so kind and measure the length. The
                          > prototype is
                          > 19730mm long (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JNR_Class_D51) and has a
                          > diameter
                          > of driving-wheels of 1400mm (http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%e5%9b%bd%e9%89%84D51
                          > 形蒸気機関車)*.
                          > Should be 89,7mm and 6,4mm in Z.
                          >
                          > Maybe your estimation about 1/240 is the same phenomena, like a
                          > correct scaled
                          > American Z diesel looks in my European eyes like scale 1/200... ;-)
                          >
                          > Greetings Arnim
                          >
                          > * If you doesn't use unicode-fonts, it is possible that this link
                          > doesn't
                          > work. Than click on the English page at the left frame in the box
                          > "languages"
                          > the first link - and copy-paste the URL into your favorite
                          > translation-service.
                          >
                          >



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • David K. Smith
                          Reynard, I can confirm it has 16-wheel pickup. The drivers all pick up through a pair of thin contact strips embedded in the plastic frame. The tender wheels
                          Message 12 of 28 , Feb 6, 2010
                            Reynard, I can confirm it has 16-wheel pickup. The drivers all pick up through a pair of thin contact strips embedded in the plastic frame. The tender wheels follow pin-and-cup Kato style trucks, with contact strips embedded in the underframe. The mechanism design is ingenious, and is well suited for bashing into American and other locomotives, although the drivers are of an unusual style. Flanges are fine (2/3 of Marklin's), and there are even brake shoes between the drivers. I could easily envision two of them used to make an articulated, for example. I could see the mechanism chopped down to make an X-6-X as well.

                            --David
                            http://jamesriverbranch.net/
                            http://pinecreekrailroad.net/
                            http://1-220.blogspot.com/

                            --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Reynard Wellman <micron@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hello Robert,
                            > I see that you have already run the D51 and must
                            > say that I am very impressed! I did some comparison
                            > photos of various Z steam locomotives and must
                            > say that the D51 actually does look to be right on scale!
                            > http://www.micronart.com/D51_comparison.html
                            >
                            > Did you say that it has 16 wheel pickups or am I
                            > misreading your post ?!!! That will put all other makers
                            > of Z locos on notice. That's the kind of engineering our
                            > little scale requires because there is not much room
                            > for error at these finer dimensions.
                            >
                            > I will test mine tomorrow for sure! I am prepared to
                            > rescind my idea that this loco is not 1/220. Perhaps
                            > our run-of-the-mill locos are the ones a little out of whack!
                            > This product may very well raise the quality standards and
                            > expectations that we deserve.
                            >
                            > Thanks for your note,
                            > Reynard
                            > http://www.micronart.com
                            > On Feb 5, 2010, at 4:26 PM, pray59_3 wrote:
                            >
                            > > I am overjoyed that everyone is hesitant to order their D51's, as
                            > > they are on sale till the 11th of February, so as each version come
                            > > in stock the next few days, they will be re-priced from 5% off to
                            > > 20% off for SAL shipping bonus, and I will be snapping them up! I
                            > > got 7 so far! haha!
                            > >
                            > > Oh, by the way, they really do look and run beautiful, and that 16
                            > > wheel electrical pickup just hands down trumps ALL OTHER Z SCALE
                            > > LOCOMOTIVES MANUFACTURED TO DATE!
                            > >
                            > > In fact, this tender electrically wired to a small Marklin steamer
                            > > (non tank versing please) would make it a super smooth runner, even
                            > > if you just leave the tender motor free spinning due to the extra 8
                            > > wheel electrical pickup tender!
                            > >
                            > > Just think if you were able to mount the universal joint to an
                            > > extended motor shaft on the back of the Marklin steamer's motor,
                            > > and have a dual motored loco!
                            > >
                            > > -Robert Ray
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                          • Loren Snyder
                            Reynard, This loco does sound wonderful in comparison to many others, however one statement you made will surely come back to haunt steam lovers if
                            Message 13 of 28 , Feb 6, 2010
                              Reynard,

                              This loco does sound wonderful in comparison to many others, however one
                              statement you made will surely come back to haunt steam lovers if
                              manufacturers take your suggestion below seriously.

                              Don't get me wrong, I whole heartedly agree with you that steam lovers need
                              to make their wishes known regarding quality.
                              I'd suggest that almost anything is a possibility when it comes to
                              manufacturing, however, to design a beautifully running, realistic looking
                              steam loco here in the USA would end up costing much more than I think most
                              folks would be willing or able to pay for.

                              Shucks, I'll bet that many would gladly take on the project if they had the
                              money and expertise to make such a loco and could be assured they would
                              recoup their R&D costs when sales of said product commenced.

                              Now, if we were all rich, then money would be no object of concern......

                              Loren

                              -------Original Message-------

                              From: Reynard Wellman
                              Date: 2/6/2010 7:38:17 AM
                              To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: D51 Japanese Mikado at show yesterday.

                              My first impression is that this might very well be the product
                              to spur the steam runners to demand better engineering
                              from our Z scale manufacturers.

                              best regardZ,
                              Reynard


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • David K. Smith
                              Loren, I think the solution here is to encourage Tenshodo to consider American prototype steam. Perhaps if we could collectively demonstrate enough interest in
                              Message 14 of 28 , Feb 6, 2010
                                Loren, I think the solution here is to encourage Tenshodo to consider American prototype steam. Perhaps if we could collectively demonstrate enough interest in it, they may be open to suggestions. Just a thought...

                                --David
                                http://jamesriverbranch.net/
                                http://pinecreekrailroad.net/
                                http://1-220.blogspot.com/

                                --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Loren Snyder" <ljsnyder@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Reynard,
                                >
                                > This loco does sound wonderful in comparison to many others, however one
                                > statement you made will surely come back to haunt steam lovers if
                                > manufacturers take your suggestion below seriously.
                                >
                                > Don't get me wrong, I whole heartedly agree with you that steam lovers need
                                > to make their wishes known regarding quality.
                                > I'd suggest that almost anything is a possibility when it comes to
                                > manufacturing, however, to design a beautifully running, realistic looking
                                > steam loco here in the USA would end up costing much more than I think most
                                > folks would be willing or able to pay for.
                                >
                                > Shucks, I'll bet that many would gladly take on the project if they had the
                                > money and expertise to make such a loco and could be assured they would
                                > recoup their R&D costs when sales of said product commenced.
                                >
                                > Now, if we were all rich, then money would be no object of concern......
                                >
                                > Loren
                                >
                                > -------Original Message-------
                                >
                                > From: Reynard Wellman
                                > Date: 2/6/2010 7:38:17 AM
                                > To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: D51 Japanese Mikado at show yesterday.
                                >
                                > My first impression is that this might very well be the product
                                > to spur the steam runners to demand better engineering
                                > from our Z scale manufacturers.
                                >
                                > best regardZ,
                                > Reynard
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                              • Reynard Wellman
                                Hi David, I put my D51 thru its paces this morning, across turnouts thrown and un-thrown, backwards and forwards, at fast speeds and at slow speeds. Have not
                                Message 15 of 28 , Feb 6, 2010
                                  Hi David,
                                  I put my D51 thru its paces this morning, across turnouts
                                  thrown and un-thrown, backwards and forwards, at fast
                                  speeds and at slow speeds. Have not hauled any equipment
                                  yet because mine came with the Arnold style coupler mounted
                                  (though they do provide the awkward AZL type couplers in a
                                  plastic bag). I prefer the MTL couplers for all my rolling stock,
                                  so I'll be mounting those to the D51 when time allows.

                                  The only hiccups occur amidst the MTL turnout frogs which,
                                  incidentally, is a constant problem for all brands of steam
                                  locos in these turnouts. But the D51 simply blinks slightly and
                                  continues on as if nothing had happened. Amazing and
                                  consistent performance from a new locomotive! I attribute this
                                  fine performance to the 16 electrical pickups incorporated in
                                  the design of this product. Flange depth is perfect. Not only
                                  is this loco gauged correctly, it has a realistic driver appearance
                                  that makes the Marklin Mikado look toyish (though I still
                                  love my toyz!)

                                  I was also delighted to find the loco lighted. It seems that none
                                  of the other Z steam manufacturers seem to bother with
                                  illuminating a "top-of-boiler" mounted headlamp which back
                                  in the old days of HO scale was accomplished by simply
                                  providing a piece of lumunite plastic up into the projected fixture
                                  while the grain-of-wheat bulb was buried down in the boiler.
                                  Tenshodo had the good sense to go ahead with this feature
                                  nicety. Kudos again for Tenshodo!

                                  My first impression is that this might very well be the product
                                  to spur the steam runners to demand better engineering
                                  from our Z scale manufacturers.

                                  best regardZ,
                                  Reynard

                                  On Feb 6, 2010, at 12:10 AM, David K. Smith wrote:

                                  > Reynard, I can confirm it has 16-wheel pickup. The drivers all pick
                                  > up through a pair of thin contact strips embedded in the plastic
                                  > frame. The tender wheels follow pin-and-cup Kato style trucks, with
                                  > contact strips embedded in the underframe. The mechanism design is
                                  > ingenious, and is well suited for bashing into American and other
                                  > locomotives, although the drivers are of an unusual style. Flanges
                                  > are fine (2/3 of Marklin's), and there are even brake shoes between
                                  > the drivers. I could easily envision two of them used to make an
                                  > articulated, for example. I could see the mechanism chopped down to
                                  > make an X-6-X as well.
                                  >
                                  > --David
                                  > http://jamesriverbranch.net/
                                  > http://pinecreekrailroad.net/
                                  > http://1-220.blogspot.com/
                                  >
                                  > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Reynard Wellman <micron@...> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Hello Robert,
                                  > > I see that you have already run the D51 and must
                                  > > say that I am very impressed! I did some comparison
                                  > > photos of various Z steam locomotives and must
                                  > > say that the D51 actually does look to be right on scale!
                                  > > http://www.micronart.com/D51_comparison.html
                                  > >
                                  > > Did you say that it has 16 wheel pickups or am I
                                  > > misreading your post ?!!! That will put all other makers
                                  > > of Z locos on notice. That's the kind of engineering our
                                  > > little scale requires because there is not much room
                                  > > for error at these finer dimensions.
                                  > >
                                  > > I will test mine tomorrow for sure! I am prepared to
                                  > > rescind my idea that this loco is not 1/220. Perhaps
                                  > > our run-of-the-mill locos are the ones a little out of whack!
                                  > > This product may very well raise the quality standards and
                                  > > expectations that we deserve.
                                  > >
                                  > > Thanks for your note,
                                  > > Reynard
                                  > > http://www.micronart.com
                                  > > On Feb 5, 2010, at 4:26 PM, pray59_3 wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > > I am overjoyed that everyone is hesitant to order their D51's, as
                                  > > > they are on sale till the 11th of February, so as each version
                                  > come
                                  > > > in stock the next few days, they will be re-priced from 5% off to
                                  > > > 20% off for SAL shipping bonus, and I will be snapping them up! I
                                  > > > got 7 so far! haha!
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Oh, by the way, they really do look and run beautiful, and that 16
                                  > > > wheel electrical pickup just hands down trumps ALL OTHER Z SCALE
                                  > > > LOCOMOTIVES MANUFACTURED TO DATE!
                                  > > >
                                  > > > In fact, this tender electrically wired to a small Marklin steamer
                                  > > > (non tank versing please) would make it a super smooth runner,
                                  > even
                                  > > > if you just leave the tender motor free spinning due to the
                                  > extra 8
                                  > > > wheel electrical pickup tender!
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Just think if you were able to mount the universal joint to an
                                  > > > extended motor shaft on the back of the Marklin steamer's motor,
                                  > > > and have a dual motored loco!
                                  > > >
                                  > > > -Robert Ray
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • socalz44
                                  Well it is raining here in San Diego today, stuff is drying on the Northern Division so here are my two cents worth. First, I will agree with everyone that
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Feb 6, 2010
                                    Well it is raining here in San Diego today, stuff is drying on the Northern Division so here are my two cents worth. First, I will agree with everyone that this loco and it's coming varients are beauties and run well. Second, the problem I have is that they are just too small. They are going to look out of place on a North American layout. I suppose this is ok for kitbashers. But to invest money in locos that are "out of scale" here in NA is not money well spent in my opinion. Third, as mentioned before this can be a wake up call for NA style manufacturers to enter the fray. Don't hold your breath for that. Lastly, if and when Tenshodo realises through these purchases from NA of a Japanese loco that there would and should be a market for a reliable NA products here then maybe they will fill the void in our hobby. I feel Tenshodo is the best bet. Cheers, Jim CCRR

                                    --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Reynard Wellman <micron@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hi Loren,
                                    > As in horse racing, the old saw "competition improves
                                    > the breed" should be applied to our Z manufacturing
                                    > undertakings. Yes, price is a big, big factor when folks
                                    > are considering an item. But the value of "quality" eventually
                                    > enters into the equation. For instance, if you've bought yourself
                                    > a nice cheap chair that one day busted out from under
                                    > you (thus your hip got bruised) , you'll most likely never
                                    > to buy a cheap chair like that again. Believe me there is
                                    > some awful furniture out there!
                                    >
                                    > Doing the research and engineering, obtaining the right
                                    > kind of tooling and using the talents of smart employees
                                    > will always make for a positive ROI (return on investment)
                                    > not only for the maker, but for the customer as well.
                                    >
                                    > I am so pleased that we now have an example in
                                    > Z scale of a well made, cost effective STEAM locomotive
                                    > with this new Tenshodo D51 Mikado.
                                    >
                                    > warm regardZ,
                                    > Reynard
                                    > http://www.micronart.com
                                    >
                                    > On Feb 6, 2010, at 9:30 AM, David K. Smith wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > Loren, I think the solution here is to encourage Tenshodo to
                                    > > consider American prototype steam. Perhaps if we could collectively
                                    > > demonstrate enough interest in it, they may be open to suggestions.
                                    > > Just a thought...
                                    > >
                                    > > --David
                                    > > http://jamesriverbranch.net/
                                    > > http://pinecreekrailroad.net/
                                    > > http://1-220.blogspot.com/
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Loren Snyder" <ljsnyder@> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Reynard,
                                    > > >
                                    > > > This loco does sound wonderful in comparison to many others,
                                    > > however one
                                    > > > statement you made will surely come back to haunt steam lovers if
                                    > > > manufacturers take your suggestion below seriously.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Don't get me wrong, I whole heartedly agree with you that steam
                                    > > lovers need
                                    > > > to make their wishes known regarding quality.
                                    > > > I'd suggest that almost anything is a possibility when it comes to
                                    > > > manufacturing, however, to design a beautifully running,
                                    > > realistic looking
                                    > > > steam loco here in the USA would end up costing much more than I
                                    > > think most
                                    > > > folks would be willing or able to pay for.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Shucks, I'll bet that many would gladly take on the project if
                                    > > they had the
                                    > > > money and expertise to make such a loco and could be assured they
                                    > > would
                                    > > > recoup their R&D costs when sales of said product commenced.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Now, if we were all rich, then money would be no object of
                                    > > concern......
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Loren
                                    > > >
                                    > > > -------Original Message-------
                                    > > >
                                    > > > From: Reynard Wellman
                                    > > > Date: 2/6/2010 7:38:17 AM
                                    > > > To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > > Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: D51 Japanese Mikado at show yesterday.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > My first impression is that this might very well be the product
                                    > > > to spur the steam runners to demand better engineering
                                    > > > from our Z scale manufacturers.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > best regardZ,
                                    > > > Reynard
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                  • Reynard Wellman
                                    Hi Loren, As in horse racing, the old saw competition improves the breed should be applied to our Z manufacturing undertakings. Yes, price is a big, big
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Feb 6, 2010
                                      Hi Loren,
                                      As in horse racing, the old saw "competition improves
                                      the breed" should be applied to our Z manufacturing
                                      undertakings. Yes, price is a big, big factor when folks
                                      are considering an item. But the value of "quality" eventually
                                      enters into the equation. For instance, if you've bought yourself
                                      a nice cheap chair that one day busted out from under
                                      you (thus your hip got bruised) , you'll most likely never
                                      to buy a cheap chair like that again. Believe me there is
                                      some awful furniture out there!

                                      Doing the research and engineering, obtaining the right
                                      kind of tooling and using the talents of smart employees
                                      will always make for a positive ROI (return on investment)
                                      not only for the maker, but for the customer as well.

                                      I am so pleased that we now have an example in
                                      Z scale of a well made, cost effective STEAM locomotive
                                      with this new Tenshodo D51 Mikado.

                                      warm regardZ,
                                      Reynard
                                      http://www.micronart.com

                                      On Feb 6, 2010, at 9:30 AM, David K. Smith wrote:

                                      > Loren, I think the solution here is to encourage Tenshodo to
                                      > consider American prototype steam. Perhaps if we could collectively
                                      > demonstrate enough interest in it, they may be open to suggestions.
                                      > Just a thought...
                                      >
                                      > --David
                                      > http://jamesriverbranch.net/
                                      > http://pinecreekrailroad.net/
                                      > http://1-220.blogspot.com/
                                      >
                                      > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Loren Snyder" <ljsnyder@...> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Reynard,
                                      > >
                                      > > This loco does sound wonderful in comparison to many others,
                                      > however one
                                      > > statement you made will surely come back to haunt steam lovers if
                                      > > manufacturers take your suggestion below seriously.
                                      > >
                                      > > Don't get me wrong, I whole heartedly agree with you that steam
                                      > lovers need
                                      > > to make their wishes known regarding quality.
                                      > > I'd suggest that almost anything is a possibility when it comes to
                                      > > manufacturing, however, to design a beautifully running,
                                      > realistic looking
                                      > > steam loco here in the USA would end up costing much more than I
                                      > think most
                                      > > folks would be willing or able to pay for.
                                      > >
                                      > > Shucks, I'll bet that many would gladly take on the project if
                                      > they had the
                                      > > money and expertise to make such a loco and could be assured they
                                      > would
                                      > > recoup their R&D costs when sales of said product commenced.
                                      > >
                                      > > Now, if we were all rich, then money would be no object of
                                      > concern......
                                      > >
                                      > > Loren
                                      > >
                                      > > -------Original Message-------
                                      > >
                                      > > From: Reynard Wellman
                                      > > Date: 2/6/2010 7:38:17 AM
                                      > > To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: D51 Japanese Mikado at show yesterday.
                                      > >
                                      > > My first impression is that this might very well be the product
                                      > > to spur the steam runners to demand better engineering
                                      > > from our Z scale manufacturers.
                                      > >
                                      > > best regardZ,
                                      > > Reynard
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >



                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Garth
                                      It would be interesting to see just how many pieces Tenshodo made in the 8 variations of the Z-scale Mikado. Tenshodo has been making models in various scales
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Feb 6, 2010
                                        It would be interesting to see just how many pieces Tenshodo made in the 8 variations of the Z-scale Mikado.

                                        Tenshodo has been making models in various scales for years going back further than WWII. They were the superior brand in the 80's for No. American brass engines. As for R&D that is one place where they have already done it. This engine has been previously produced in 3 scales that I know of by Tenshodo in Brass in Japan. They may even have a vast resource of R&D from their HO and O gauge North American production days.

                                        I think it is this vast resource of engineering data they have amassed long before these engines died coupled with a good Chinese partner that have made this Z-Scale D51 possible at the price it is being offered at. If you are not familiar with the Japanese N-scale Market this engine came out at about the same price break as Kato and Micro Ace steam engines have been selling for in Japan for several years.

                                        I do not know how many are produced in a run but I know that with few exceptions they do not last for really long periods of time on the shelves of the hobby stores in Japan. In many cases the really popular releases reappear again after a few years.

                                        It was interesting to note that when I tallied up the total production of the various Steam Engines types produced just by Micro Ace in Japan since the late 1990's to the present, that it exceeds the total number of models produced for whole North American Market since the start of N-scale with Treble O in England in the late 1960's.

                                        cheerz Garth

                                        --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Loren Snyder" <ljsnyder@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Reynard,
                                        >
                                        > This loco does sound wonderful in comparison to many others, however one
                                        > statement you made will surely come back to haunt steam lovers if
                                        > manufacturers take your suggestion below seriously.
                                        >
                                        > Don't get me wrong, I whole heartedly agree with you that steam lovers need
                                        > to make their wishes known regarding quality.
                                        > I'd suggest that almost anything is a possibility when it comes to
                                        > manufacturing, however, to design a beautifully running, realistic looking
                                        > steam loco here in the USA would end up costing much more than I think most
                                        > folks would be willing or able to pay for.
                                        >
                                        > Shucks, I'll bet that many would gladly take on the project if they had the
                                        > money and expertise to make such a loco and could be assured they would
                                        > recoup their R&D costs when sales of said product commenced.
                                        >
                                        > Now, if we were all rich, then money would be no object of concern......
                                        >
                                        > Loren
                                        >
                                        > -------Original Message-------
                                        >
                                        > From: Reynard Wellman
                                        > Date: 2/6/2010 7:38:17 AM
                                        > To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: D51 Japanese Mikado at show yesterday.
                                        >
                                        > My first impression is that this might very well be the product
                                        > to spur the steam runners to demand better engineering
                                        > from our Z scale manufacturers.
                                        >
                                        > best regardZ,
                                        > Reynard
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                      • David K. Smith
                                        Jim, I don t agree that they look out of scale on a North American layout; they look more out of place due to being a Japanese prototype than due to their
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Feb 6, 2010
                                          Jim, I don't agree that they look "out of scale" on a North American layout; they look more out of place due to being a Japanese prototype than due to their size. Using them on a North American layout will absolutely require some kind of adaptation. There were many smaller, light American steamers for which this model could serve as a beginning. For example, leave off the leading and trailing trucks, and you've got a great start for a USRA 0-8-0. Likely the hardest parts to adapt may be the drivers, but I think Robert Ray has a simple solution for that.

                                          I will be very anxious to see what some adventurous bashers will be doing with this little gem. I know I've got some ideas already, but I'm not ready to spill the beans just yet.

                                          --David
                                          http://jamesriverbranch.net/
                                          http://pinecreekrailroad.net/
                                          http://1-220.blogspot.com/

                                          --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "socalz44" <jimo.crcmnvgtr@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Well it is raining here in San Diego today, stuff is drying on the Northern Division so here are my two cents worth. First, I will agree with everyone that this loco and it's coming varients are beauties and run well. Second, the problem I have is that they are just too small. They are going to look out of place on a North American layout. I suppose this is ok for kitbashers. But to invest money in locos that are "out of scale" here in NA is not money well spent in my opinion. Third, as mentioned before this can be a wake up call for NA style manufacturers to enter the fray. Don't hold your breath for that. Lastly, if and when Tenshodo realises through these purchases from NA of a Japanese loco that there would and should be a market for a reliable NA products here then maybe they will fill the void in our hobby. I feel Tenshodo is the best bet. Cheers, Jim CCRR
                                          >
                                          > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Reynard Wellman <micron@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Hi Loren,
                                          > > As in horse racing, the old saw "competition improves
                                          > > the breed" should be applied to our Z manufacturing
                                          > > undertakings. Yes, price is a big, big factor when folks
                                          > > are considering an item. But the value of "quality" eventually
                                          > > enters into the equation. For instance, if you've bought yourself
                                          > > a nice cheap chair that one day busted out from under
                                          > > you (thus your hip got bruised) , you'll most likely never
                                          > > to buy a cheap chair like that again. Believe me there is
                                          > > some awful furniture out there!
                                          > >
                                          > > Doing the research and engineering, obtaining the right
                                          > > kind of tooling and using the talents of smart employees
                                          > > will always make for a positive ROI (return on investment)
                                          > > not only for the maker, but for the customer as well.
                                          > >
                                          > > I am so pleased that we now have an example in
                                          > > Z scale of a well made, cost effective STEAM locomotive
                                          > > with this new Tenshodo D51 Mikado.
                                          > >
                                          > > warm regardZ,
                                          > > Reynard
                                          > > http://www.micronart.com
                                          > >
                                          > > On Feb 6, 2010, at 9:30 AM, David K. Smith wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > > Loren, I think the solution here is to encourage Tenshodo to
                                          > > > consider American prototype steam. Perhaps if we could collectively
                                          > > > demonstrate enough interest in it, they may be open to suggestions.
                                          > > > Just a thought...
                                          > > >
                                          > > > --David
                                          > > > http://jamesriverbranch.net/
                                          > > > http://pinecreekrailroad.net/
                                          > > > http://1-220.blogspot.com/
                                          > > >
                                          > > > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Loren Snyder" <ljsnyder@> wrote:
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Reynard,
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > This loco does sound wonderful in comparison to many others,
                                          > > > however one
                                          > > > > statement you made will surely come back to haunt steam lovers if
                                          > > > > manufacturers take your suggestion below seriously.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Don't get me wrong, I whole heartedly agree with you that steam
                                          > > > lovers need
                                          > > > > to make their wishes known regarding quality.
                                          > > > > I'd suggest that almost anything is a possibility when it comes to
                                          > > > > manufacturing, however, to design a beautifully running,
                                          > > > realistic looking
                                          > > > > steam loco here in the USA would end up costing much more than I
                                          > > > think most
                                          > > > > folks would be willing or able to pay for.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Shucks, I'll bet that many would gladly take on the project if
                                          > > > they had the
                                          > > > > money and expertise to make such a loco and could be assured they
                                          > > > would
                                          > > > > recoup their R&D costs when sales of said product commenced.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Now, if we were all rich, then money would be no object of
                                          > > > concern......
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Loren
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > -------Original Message-------
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > From: Reynard Wellman
                                          > > > > Date: 2/6/2010 7:38:17 AM
                                          > > > > To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > > > Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: D51 Japanese Mikado at show yesterday.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > My first impression is that this might very well be the product
                                          > > > > to spur the steam runners to demand better engineering
                                          > > > > from our Z scale manufacturers.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > best regardZ,
                                          > > > > Reynard
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          > > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          > >
                                          >
                                        • Karin E. Snyder
                                          Just got mine today and have posted comparison photos on both Trainboard and Z Central. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Feb 6, 2010
                                            Just got mine today and have posted comparison photos on both Trainboard and Z Central.

                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Loren Snyder
                                            David, I totally agree. I don t care who makes it............just make it right and for the right price, and we ll buy it. Loren ... From: David K. Smith
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Feb 6, 2010
                                              David,
                                              I totally agree. I don't care who makes it............just make it right
                                              and for the right price, and we'll buy it.
                                              Loren

                                              -------Original Message-------

                                              From: David K. Smith
                                              Date: 2/6/2010 9:30:24 AM
                                              To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: D51 Japanese Mikado at show yesterday.

                                              Loren, I think the solution here is to encourage Tenshodo to consider
                                              American prototype steam. Perhaps if we could collectively demonstrate
                                              enough interest in it, they may be open to suggestions. Just a thought...

                                              --David
                                              http://jamesriverbranch.net/
                                              http://pinecreekrailroad.net/
                                              http://1-220.blogspot.com/


                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Loren Snyder
                                              Reynard, I told my wife I thought they were butt ugly, (I m so very prejudiced toward NA steam), but I applaud the working mechanism. Pure beauty. Loren ...
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Feb 6, 2010
                                                Reynard,
                                                I told my wife I thought they were butt ugly, (I'm so very prejudiced toward
                                                NA steam), but I applaud the working mechanism. Pure beauty.
                                                Loren

                                                -------Original Message-------

                                                From: Reynard Wellman
                                                Date: 2/6/2010 10:04:10 AM
                                                To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: D51 Japanese Mikado at show yesterday.

                                                Hi Loren,
                                                As in horse racing, the old saw "competition improves
                                                the breed" should be applied to our Z manufacturing
                                                undertakings. Yes, price is a big, big factor when folks
                                                are considering an item. But the value of "quality" eventually
                                                enters into the equation. For instance, if you've bought yourself
                                                a nice cheap chair that one day busted out from under
                                                you (thus your hip got bruised) , you'll most likely never
                                                to buy a cheap chair like that again. Believe me there is
                                                some awful furniture out there!

                                                Doing the research and engineering, obtaining the right
                                                kind of tooling and using the talents of smart employees
                                                will always make for a positive ROI (return on investment)
                                                not only for the maker, but for the customer as well.

                                                I am so pleased that we now have an example in
                                                Z scale of a well made, cost effective STEAM locomotive
                                                with this new Tenshodo D51 Mikado.

                                                warm regardZ,
                                                Reynard
                                                http://www.micronart.com


                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Loren Snyder
                                                Jim, I ll put my money on the same color. I do hope Tenshodo says, Ah so...... ..let s make NA steam They would sell a lot for sure. Loren ... From:
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Feb 6, 2010
                                                  Jim,

                                                  I'll put my money on the same color. I do hope Tenshodo says, "Ah so......
                                                  ..let's make NA steam" They would sell a lot for sure.
                                                  Loren

                                                  -------Original Message-------

                                                  From: socalz44
                                                  Date: 2/6/2010 10:54:31 AM
                                                  To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: D51 Japanese Mikado at show yesterday.

                                                  Well it is raining here in San Diego today, stuff is drying on the Northern
                                                  Division so here are my two cents worth. First, I will agree with everyone
                                                  that this loco and it's coming varients are beauties and run well. Second,
                                                  the problem I have is that they are just too small. They are going to look
                                                  out of place on a North American layout. I suppose this is ok for kitbashers
                                                  But to invest money in locos that are "out of scale" here in NA is not
                                                  money well spent in my opinion. Third, as mentioned before this can be a
                                                  wake up call for NA style manufacturers to enter the fray. Don't hold your
                                                  breath for that. Lastly, if and when Tenshodo realises through these
                                                  purchases from NA of a Japanese loco that there would and should be a market
                                                  for a reliable NA products here then maybe they will fill the void in our
                                                  hobby. I feel Tenshodo is the best bet. Cheers, Jim CCRR


                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • Reynard Wellman
                                                  Hi Garth, Thank you for providing us some history behind this manufacturers credentials. It does reflect the kind of R & D that must go on before stamping out
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Feb 6, 2010
                                                    Hi Garth,
                                                    Thank you for providing us some history behind this manufacturers
                                                    credentials. It does reflect the kind of R & D that must go on before
                                                    stamping out thousands of units. As for scale; it is as accurate
                                                    as anything out there from other Z manufacturers. I took
                                                    D51 measurements yesterday and they do hold up to the published
                                                    dimensions. Good news all around and hopefully Tenshodo
                                                    will dive into the North American (US, Canada, Mexico) market
                                                    drawing from their well of experience to make good steamers
                                                    for all Z scalers.

                                                    regardZ,
                                                    Reynard
                                                    On Feb 6, 2010, at 12:02 PM, Garth wrote:

                                                    > It would be interesting to see just how many pieces Tenshodo made
                                                    > in the 8 variations of the Z-scale Mikado.
                                                    >
                                                    > Tenshodo has been making models in various scales for years going
                                                    > back further than WWII. They were the superior brand in the 80's
                                                    > for No. American brass engines. As for R&D that is one place where
                                                    > they have already done it. This engine has been previously produced
                                                    > in 3 scales that I know of by Tenshodo in Brass in Japan. They may
                                                    > even have a vast resource of R&D from their HO and O gauge North
                                                    > American production days.
                                                    >
                                                    > I think it is this vast resource of engineering data they have
                                                    > amassed long before these engines died coupled with a good Chinese
                                                    > partner that have made this Z-Scale D51 possible at the price it is
                                                    > being offered at. If you are not familiar with the Japanese N-scale
                                                    > Market this engine came out at about the same price break as Kato
                                                    > and Micro Ace steam engines have been selling for in Japan for
                                                    > several years.
                                                    >
                                                    > I do not know how many are produced in a run but I know that with
                                                    > few exceptions they do not last for really long periods of time on
                                                    > the shelves of the hobby stores in Japan. In many cases the really
                                                    > popular releases reappear again after a few years.
                                                    >
                                                    > It was interesting to note that when I tallied up the total
                                                    > production of the various Steam Engines types produced just by
                                                    > Micro Ace in Japan since the late 1990's to the present, that it
                                                    > exceeds the total number of models produced for whole North
                                                    > American Market since the start of N-scale with Treble O in England
                                                    > in the late 1960's.
                                                    >
                                                    > cheerz Garth
                                                    > EDITED


                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • Garth
                                                    Hi Reynard; Well I do not think this engine is going to lead us to more steam for No. AM. in Z but it could in the future. For instance a C57 or C62 done in
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Feb 6, 2010
                                                      Hi Reynard;

                                                      Well I do not think this engine is going to lead us to more steam for No. AM. in Z but it could in the future. For instance a C57 or C62 done in 1:200 for Z would be right for a Pacific in Z for us at 1:220 and the other engine is a Hudson wheel arrangement and the same holds true for it. The Hudsons however have very different wheel centers than we are used to seeing in No. Am. but some of the C57 look right for a No. Am. Pacific. I have used the 1:150 Japanese Pacific's to make some very nice operating No. Am. Pacific for my Athabaska Northern. If this D51 had been scaled at 1:200 it would have fit into some of the lighter No. Am. Mikado's and 2-8-0's very nicely.

                                                      It will be interesting to find out just how many of these Japanese D51's in Z are being produced and just how well they sell. The Japanese market has been buying the Z but there is still a lot of the earlier stuff around and two manufacturers have already pulled out of the market without producing much of what they promised. Pro-Z as scaled way back on what they proposed to offer in Z initially. There modular layouts are quite easy to find still in good supply and so we have not seen any of the buildings appear as separate offerings. They had a good spread of stuff a year ago and none of it has made the market yet. It has taken a full year to get the first of the track only starter sets announced and they are not delivered yet. The switch that was to have appeared on their curved diorama piece never appeared, but they finally got the straight track sections out along with an addition power pack feed cord so those with the dioramas could configure them to a double track main from the folded figure 8 of the original. The sad part about the diorama's is the D51 won't run on it as the radii are all smaller than 195mm as they are 170mm and 145mm. While their stuff runs well on the diorama all the other manufacturers have set 195mm as the minimum radius. I understand Crown or PRMLoco will take over production of the RealZJ track system that is very similar to Micro Trains roadbed track as well as the very nice power pack. None of the passenger cars promised by Crown or RealZJ and Terranetz have ever come to market and Terranetz put out the one set when RealZj quit introducing new material and noting since that and then 6 months ago they announced that they were not continuing in the scale. So it has not been all roses with Z in Japan.

                                                      I believe the first Electric produced for RealZJ was actually done by Tenshodo as they sold 2 colour variations of it under their own banner and 2 other variations were sold by RealZJ so the D51 is not their first Z scale issue.

                                                      There is certainly interest in Z in Japan and the Micro Trains Lineup is readily available in a couple of places as is Marklin. Currently Sankei, a card stock building kit manufacturer is the only one producing buildings in Z-scale some Japanese and some American. They have a water tower and coaling kit currently available among about a dozen other offerings.

                                                      I have been involved with Japanese profile steam in N-scale and trollys since about 1978. So that is my background for interest and why I sort have the beat covered so to say. That is how I ran into it when Z first hit the street in Japan.

                                                      I have created several Japanese Engines before they were introduced in Z using static models modified to fit on a Marklin or Micro Trains Chassis. EF58 ED78, C58 and D51 all at 1:200. I also have passenger cars that were originally released as M gauge 1:200 as a battery operated toy on plastic track that was just a ditch in a piece of plastic made to look like rail from Takahara before they joined with Tomix (Tomy the parent of both now and know as Takahara-Tomy) I took off the toy trucks and added Micro Trains 4 wheel passenger trucks and 905 couplers and voila a Japanese electric passenger train with EF58 front end power using a Marlin GG1 chassis with added weight.

                                                      You can see most of this stuff on www.nn3.ca on the Japanese Z Pages. I did all this at the same time I powered the Hallmark Freedom PA's and converted the trucks on the cars to use 36 inch wheels and 905 couplers and acetate axle end inserts from Robert Ray. Created a baggage car and sides for a coach and dinner. Tried to create a metal insert for the truck frame to use metal wheels and axles to get a smoother running 3 axle passenger truck in Z scale but I did not get all the art work quite right so it did not work quite as nicely as I had hoped. Might do better now with a better source of metal wheels.

                                                      Up here in the backwoods north of the border we are constantly building something or other.

                                                      cheerz Garth

                                                      --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Reynard Wellman <micron@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > Hi Garth,
                                                      > Thank you for providing us some history behind this manufacturers
                                                      > credentials. It does reflect the kind of R & D that must go on before
                                                      > stamping out thousands of units. As for scale; it is as accurate
                                                      > as anything out there from other Z manufacturers. I took
                                                      > D51 measurements yesterday and they do hold up to the published
                                                      > dimensions. Good news all around and hopefully Tenshodo
                                                      > will dive into the North American (US, Canada, Mexico) market
                                                      > drawing from their well of experience to make good steamers
                                                      > for all Z scalers.
                                                      >
                                                      > regardZ,
                                                      > Reynard
                                                      > On Feb 6, 2010, at 12:02 PM, Garth wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > > It would be interesting to see just how many pieces Tenshodo made
                                                      > > in the 8 variations of the Z-scale Mikado.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Tenshodo has been making models in various scales for years going
                                                      > > back further than WWII. They were the superior brand in the 80's
                                                      > > for No. American brass engines. As for R&D that is one place where
                                                      > > they have already done it. This engine has been previously produced
                                                      > > in 3 scales that I know of by Tenshodo in Brass in Japan. They may
                                                      > > even have a vast resource of R&D from their HO and O gauge North
                                                      > > American production days.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > I think it is this vast resource of engineering data they have
                                                      > > amassed long before these engines died coupled with a good Chinese
                                                      > > partner that have made this Z-Scale D51 possible at the price it is
                                                      > > being offered at. If you are not familiar with the Japanese N-scale
                                                      > > Market this engine came out at about the same price break as Kato
                                                      > > and Micro Ace steam engines have been selling for in Japan for
                                                      > > several years.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > I do not know how many are produced in a run but I know that with
                                                      > > few exceptions they do not last for really long periods of time on
                                                      > > the shelves of the hobby stores in Japan. In many cases the really
                                                      > > popular releases reappear again after a few years.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > It was interesting to note that when I tallied up the total
                                                      > > production of the various Steam Engines types produced just by
                                                      > > Micro Ace in Japan since the late 1990's to the present, that it
                                                      > > exceeds the total number of models produced for whole North
                                                      > > American Market since the start of N-scale with Treble O in England
                                                      > > in the late 1960's.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > cheerz Garth
                                                      > > EDITED
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                      >
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