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Re : [Z_Scale] Uncoupling

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  • de Champeaux Dominique
    MTL coupler/uncoupler system is no less and no more than a Z scale sample of Kadee system (furthermore MTL was initially a subside of Kadee). To this extent
    Message 1 of 18 , Nov 3, 2009
      MTL coupler/uncoupler system is no less and no more than a Z scale sample of Kadee system (furthermore MTL was initially a subside of Kadee). To this extent one should avoid using a magnetic uncoupler on a main line where a train could experience parasite uncouplings. Rather than that one should use magnets on spurs or sidings, and electromagnets on a main line. That's what I'm doing on my layout (still missing the electromagnets but I think I'll solve that in a while), and provided the uncouplers are set on straight track switching operations are very easy with them. One should only be aware that it's necessary to  apply accurate adjustment on every coupler with a coupler setting tool from Micro-Trains (height, trip pin setting) for best results.
       
      Dom

      --- En date de : Mar 3.11.09, Richard <ark_42@...> a écrit :


      De: Richard <ark_42@...>
      Objet: [Z_Scale] Uncoupling
      À: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Mardi 3 Novembre 2009, 13h05


       



      Hi,
      I'm looking into automated uncoupling for a layout I'm considering. To this end I'm trying both MTL's and Marklin's offerings.
      Whilst the Marklin version requires a timed pulse on the ramp, if correctly timed it works 100%. The MTL version seems to be a bit "hit and miss" as to whether the couplings actually separate.
      So I'm looking here to see what other people have experienced with this.
      One further clue - I'm uncoupling on a slope, the MTL version is much better on the level.

      Regards

      Richard



















      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Uwe Liermann
      Hello Dominique, ... there is a third system available on the market (sorry only in German):
      Message 2 of 18 , Nov 3, 2009
        Hello Dominique,

        > one should use [...] electromagnets on a main line. That's what I'm
        > doing on my layout (still missing the electromagnets but I think
        > I'll solve that in a while)

        there is a third system available on the market (sorry only in German):

        http://www.system-joerger.de/shop/product_info.php?cPath=13&products_id=52

        This is a electromagnetic system, and the Maerklin couplers have to be
        modified by gluing a metal piece under the coupler. Those can also be
        bought from Jörger, but he also sells a jig to make those pieces from
        a paper staple.

        I haven't used this system myself yet, and especially not with MTL
        couplers, but I did read a post in the ZFE board that at least the MTL
        coupler is moved by the Jörger system. I also think that someone
        lately did write about testing the system with MTL couplers and had
        good results in one of the relevant boards.

        One detail to think about while using a electromagnetic system are the
        weights in the cars. If those are made from a magnetic metal, then
        the car itself might be influenced by the system. In this case the
        weight has to be changed to a nonmagnetic metal.

        --
        GreetingZ
        Uwe
      • Garth
        Dom There is a way to use a magnetic uncoupler from below the layout. I have used this in Nn3 with uses the same track and it worked fine. I used a HO under
        Message 3 of 18 , Nov 3, 2009
          Dom

          There is a way to use a magnetic uncoupler from below the layout. I have used this in Nn3 with uses the same track and it worked fine. I used a HO under track uncoupler and drilled and taped some holes int he metal plate to attach a hinge to the metal plate below the ceramic or rare earth magnet. I put a block of wood the same thickness as the magnet and big enough to fit under the hinge and attached it to the layout and then attached the hinge to the spacer screwing through it into the bottom of the table top. At other end of the plate I drilled and taped two holes for 2072 screws and made a wire loop to capture the end ball of a pull light chain then attached a small pulley and took the chain over the pulley and connected to a pull wire on the side of the layout with two screws and a loop for the end of the pull. In one position the magnet is pulled up under the track and table and works to uncouple like an in track magnet but it is out of site. when released the magnet swings down and hangs below the layout and no unwanted uncouplings occur.

          In my case the magnet is working under 1/16 thick plywood with cork roadbed ontop and MTL flex above that. I think if I were mounting it under 3/8 or 1/2 inch plywood I would use a chisel and open up a hole in several layers of the plywood and install the magnet so in the up position it flush with the bottom of the table top. The magnet and plate are just over a 1/4 inch in height. On the surface of the layout I mark the area with 2 signposts at each end of the magnet thoug I suppose one in the center would also do.


          --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, de Champeaux Dominique <ddechamp71@...> wrote:
          >
          > MTL coupler/uncoupler system is no less and no more than a Z scale sample of Kadee system (furthermore MTL was initially a subside of Kadee). To this extent one should avoid using a magnetic uncoupler on a main line where a train could experience parasite uncouplings. Rather than that one should use magnets on spurs or sidings, and electromagnets on a main line. That's what I'm doing on my layout (still missing the electromagnets but I think I'll solve that in a while), and provided the uncouplers are set on straight track switching operations are very easy with them. One should only be aware that it's necessary to  apply accurate adjustment on every coupler with a coupler setting tool from Micro-Trains (height, trip pin setting) for best results.
          >  
          > Dom
          >
          > --- En date de : Mar 3.11.09, Richard <ark_42@...> a écrit :
          >
          >
          > De: Richard <ark_42@...>
          > Objet: [Z_Scale] Uncoupling
          > À: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Mardi 3 Novembre 2009, 13h05
          >
          >
          >  
          >
          >
          >
          > Hi,
          > I'm looking into automated uncoupling for a layout I'm considering. To this end I'm trying both MTL's and Marklin's offerings.
          > Whilst the Marklin version requires a timed pulse on the ramp, if correctly timed it works 100%. The MTL version seems to be a bit "hit and miss" as to whether the couplings actually separate.
          > So I'm looking here to see what other people have experienced with this.
          > One further clue - I'm uncoupling on a slope, the MTL version is much better on the level.
          >
          > Regards
          >
          > Richard
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • John Mui
          Richard, to get MTL s couplers to work 95% of the time, you have to tune the couplers. I have to varify that the couplers swing correctly. If the car is facing
          Message 4 of 18 , Nov 3, 2009
            Richard, to get MTL's couplers to work 95% of the time, you have to tune the
            couplers. I have to varify that the couplers swing correctly. If the car is
            facing the rear of the locomotive, it should swing to the right. If it
            doesn't, you have to adjust the coupler pin. Also, on a grade, Uncouple the
            car on a flat and use automatic drop off. In fact, thats what I plan to do
            when I build a hump yard.

            John

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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          • de Champeaux Dominique
            ... Hi Garth I remember when you explained your clever idea. But in my case it s not a possible option as my track is on a surelevated section that doesn t
            Message 5 of 18 , Nov 5, 2009
              >Dom
              >
              >There is a way to use a magnetic uncoupler from below the layout. I have >used this in Nn3 with uses the same track and it worked fine. I used a HO >under track uncoupler and drilled and taped some holes int he metal plate >to attach a hinge to the metal plate below the ceramic or rare earth >magnet. I put a block of wood the same thickness as the magnet and big >enough to fit under the hinge and attached it to the layout and then >attached the hinge to the spacer screwing through it into the bottom of >the table top.....

              Hi Garth I remember when you explained your clever idea. But in my case it's not a possible option as my track is on a surelevated section that doesn't leave enough room for this system. Furthermore I'd like to install my uncoupling devices on a crossover and due to command rods linking turnouts to undertable machines I'm affraid your option should be a little bit tricky....

              Dom
            • Malcolm Cleaveland
              Folks, In RR operations, coupling and uncoupling cars are critical operations in classification yards and when servicing trackside industries. I know the
              Message 6 of 18 , Jan 16, 2012
                Folks,

                In RR operations, coupling and uncoupling cars are critical operations
                in classification yards and when servicing trackside industries. I know
                the newest AZL couplers will couple when shoved against MTL, AZL or Full
                Throttle couplers (or at least most of the time). But what is the
                approved technique for uncoupling AZL or Full Throttle cars? I asked this
                question previously, but it was never answered. So I guess the answer is
                easy, and it's obvious to everyone except me.

                CheerZ,
                -- Malcolm Z
              • Lindley Ruddick
                As far as I know the old five fingered switcher (or in Z the three fingered switcher) is the only answer. :) Lindley ... [Non-text portions of this message
                Message 7 of 18 , Jan 16, 2012
                  As far as I know the old five fingered switcher (or in Z the three fingered switcher) is the only answer. :)
                  Lindley


                  On Jan 16, 2012, at 10:43 PM, Malcolm Cleaveland wrote:

                  > Folks,
                  >
                  > In RR operations, coupling and uncoupling cars are critical operations
                  > in classification yards and when servicing trackside industries. I know
                  > the newest AZL couplers will couple when shoved against MTL, AZL or Full
                  > Throttle couplers (or at least most of the time). But what is the
                  > approved technique for uncoupling AZL or Full Throttle cars? I asked this
                  > question previously, but it was never answered. So I guess the answer is
                  > easy, and it's obvious to everyone except me.
                  >
                  > CheerZ,
                  > -- Malcolm Z
                  >
                  >



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Garth
                  I use a tool which I think came from Rix originally but I have not seen it around for years. It was originally sesigned for N scale Micro Trains couplers but I
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jan 17, 2012
                    I use a tool which I think came from Rix originally but I have not seen it around for years. It was originally sesigned for N scale Micro Trains couplers but I found it worked fine of Z as well as Nn3 of couse the last 2 use the same size of coupler.

                    The device was a piece of green plastic tubing like a fancy drink stir stick which was sliced at one end with a piece of phosphor bronze material about .001 think maybe .002 thick and the outline shape of a sharpened lead pencil that was slightly used. on the opposite end was a groove into which a small metal tab with a hole in it so you could hang the thing up when not in use. Anyway you position the phosphor bronze piece into gap between the fold knuckle part of both couplers and with slight twist it separates the two knuckles. I works better than a sharpened wooden stir stick as it is slim enough to easily slip between the two jaws. I lost the end at one point and for a short period of time used a similar piece of plastic straw until I purchased a piece of phosphor bronze shim stock and cut several from the sheet and glued them into razor saw slots on the end of some long bamboo stir sticks ( about 2.5 or 3 times the normal length of a tooth pick)
                    The deal seems to be the material has to be thin enough and rigid enough to slip easily between the coupler's jaws and be about twice the width of the inside of the jaw so when you twist it opens the two knuckles easily and smoothly.

                    cheers Garth


                    --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Malcolm Cleaveland <mcleavel@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Folks,
                    >
                    > In RR operations, coupling and uncoupling cars are critical operations
                    > in classification yards and when servicing trackside industries. I know
                    > the newest AZL couplers will couple when shoved against MTL, AZL or Full
                    > Throttle couplers (or at least most of the time). But what is the
                    > approved technique for uncoupling AZL or Full Throttle cars? I asked this
                    > question previously, but it was never answered. So I guess the answer is
                    > easy, and it's obvious to everyone except me.
                    >
                    > CheerZ,
                    > -- Malcolm Z
                    >
                  • Loren Snyder
                    This sounds like something that should be reinvented for us today. Anyone want to give it a try? Why just think of the millions you could make?
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jan 17, 2012
                      This sounds like something that should be reinvented for us today.

                      Anyone want to give it a try? Why just think of the millions you could
                      make? Hmmmmm........




                      -------Original Message-------

                      From: Garth
                      Date: 01/17/12 08:22:20
                      To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: Uncoupling

                      I use a tool which I think came from Rix originally but I have not seen it
                      around for years. It was originally sesigned for N scale Micro Trains
                      couplers but I found it worked fine of Z as well as Nn3 of couse the last 2
                      use the same size of coupler.

                      The device was a piece of green plastic tubing like a fancy drink stir stick
                      which was sliced at one end with a piece of phosphor bronze material about
                      001 think maybe .002 thick and the outline shape of a sharpened lead pencil
                      that was slightly used. on the opposite end was a groove into which a small
                      metal tab with a hole in it so you could hang the thing up when not in use.
                      Anyway you position the phosphor bronze piece into gap between the fold
                      knuckle part of both couplers and with slight twist it separates the two
                      knuckles. I works better than a sharpened wooden stir stick as it is slim
                      enough to easily slip between the two jaws. I lost the end at one point and
                      for a short period of time used a similar piece of plastic straw until I
                      purchased a piece of phosphor bronze shim stock and cut several from the
                      sheet and glued them into razor saw slots on the end of some long bamboo
                      stir sticks ( about 2.5 or 3 times the normal length of a tooth pick)
                      The deal seems to be the material has to be thin enough and rigid enough to
                      slip easily between the coupler's jaws and be about twice the width of the
                      inside of the jaw so when you twist it opens the two knuckles easily and
                      smoothly.

                      cheers Garth



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • John D. Duino
                      Obviously you don t mean millions of DOLLARS, but it would be a worthwhile tool. How much ya willing to pay for one? (tell me a million dollars and I ll sell
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jan 17, 2012
                        Obviously you don't mean millions of DOLLARS, but it would be a worthwhile tool. How much ya' willing to pay for one? (tell me a million dollars and I'll sell you two).


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        This sounds like something that should be reinvented for us today.

                        Anyone want to give it a try? Why just think of the millions you could
                        make? Hmmmmm........




                        -------Original Message-------

                        From: Garth
                        Date: 01/17/12 08:22:20
                        To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: Uncoupling

                        I use a tool which I think came from Rix originally but I have not seen it
                        around for years. It was originally sesigned for N scale Micro Trains
                        couplers but I found it worked fine of Z as well as Nn3 of couse the last 2
                        use the same size of coupler.

                        The device was a piece of green plastic tubing like a fancy drink stir stick
                        which was sliced at one end with a piece of phosphor bronze material about
                        001 think maybe .002 thick and the outline shape of a sharpened lead pencil
                        that was slightly used. on the opposite end was a groove into which a small
                        metal tab with a hole in it so you could hang the thing up when not in use.
                        Anyway you position the phosphor bronze piece into gap between the fold
                        knuckle part of both couplers and with slight twist it separates the two
                        knuckles. I works better than a sharpened wooden stir stick as it is slim
                        enough to easily slip between the two jaws. I lost the end at one point and
                        for a short period of time used a similar piece of plastic straw until I
                        purchased a piece of phosphor bronze shim stock and cut several from the
                        sheet and glued them into razor saw slots on the end of some long bamboo
                        stir sticks ( about 2.5 or 3 times the normal length of a tooth pick)
                        The deal seems to be the material has to be thin enough and rigid enough to
                        slip easily between the coupler's jaws and be about twice the width of the
                        inside of the jaw so when you twist it opens the two knuckles easily and
                        smoothly.

                        cheers Garth



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                        ------------------------------------

                        Z-scale: minimum siZe, MAXIMUM enjoyment!
                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                      • Kevin Brady
                        Hi all, If someone can send me some photos,I ll give it a go,... Kev ... -- Dr. Dirt s Weathering Service [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jan 17, 2012
                          Hi all,
                          If someone can send me some photos,I'll give it a go,...

                          Kev

                          On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 11:25 AM, Loren Snyder <ljsnyder@...> wrote:

                          > **
                          >
                          >
                          > This sounds like something that should be reinvented for us today.
                          >
                          > Anyone want to give it a try? Why just think of the millions you could
                          > make? Hmmmmm........
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > -------Original Message-------
                          >
                          > From: Garth
                          > Date: 01/17/12 08:22:20
                          > To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: Uncoupling
                          >
                          > I use a tool which I think came from Rix originally but I have not seen it
                          > around for years. It was originally sesigned for N scale Micro Trains
                          > couplers but I found it worked fine of Z as well as Nn3 of couse the last 2
                          > use the same size of coupler.
                          >
                          > The device was a piece of green plastic tubing like a fancy drink stir
                          > stick
                          > which was sliced at one end with a piece of phosphor bronze material about
                          > 001 think maybe .002 thick and the outline shape of a sharpened lead pencil
                          > that was slightly used. on the opposite end was a groove into which a small
                          > metal tab with a hole in it so you could hang the thing up when not in use.
                          > Anyway you position the phosphor bronze piece into gap between the fold
                          > knuckle part of both couplers and with slight twist it separates the two
                          > knuckles. I works better than a sharpened wooden stir stick as it is slim
                          > enough to easily slip between the two jaws. I lost the end at one point and
                          > for a short period of time used a similar piece of plastic straw until I
                          > purchased a piece of phosphor bronze shim stock and cut several from the
                          > sheet and glued them into razor saw slots on the end of some long bamboo
                          > stir sticks ( about 2.5 or 3 times the normal length of a tooth pick)
                          > The deal seems to be the material has to be thin enough and rigid enough to
                          > slip easily between the coupler's jaws and be about twice the width of the
                          > inside of the jaw so when you twist it opens the two knuckles easily and
                          > smoothly.
                          >
                          > cheers Garth
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >



                          --
                          Dr. Dirt's Weathering Service


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Loren Snyder
                          Well, a million dollars does sound tempting, however I imagine the end dollar figure in my off shore account will continue to remain rather measly. Some one
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jan 17, 2012
                            Well, a million dollars does sound tempting, however I imagine the end
                            dollar figure in my off shore account will continue to remain rather measly.


                            Some one does need to reinvent this tool. Why don't you do it John and
                            become rich and famous......uh, I mean infamous.

                            Loren




                            -------Original Message-------

                            From: John D. Duino
                            Date: 01/17/12 09:38:41
                            To: z scale
                            Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: Uncoupling

                            Obviously you don't mean millions of DOLLARS, but it would be a worthwhile
                            tool. How much ya' willing to pay for one? (tell me a million dollars and I
                            ll sell you two).


                            ----- Original Message -----
                            This sounds like something that should be reinvented for us today.

                            Anyone want to give it a try? Why just think of the millions you could
                            make? Hmmmmm........




                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • John D. Duino
                            Thought I already was infamous...and only rich by the company I keep :) Me do it? Sure, why not...in all my free time :) Guess I ll have to get with Lajos to
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jan 17, 2012
                              Thought I already was infamous...and only rich by the company I keep :)

                              Me do it? Sure, why not...in all my free time :) Guess I'll have to get with Lajos to understand the phosphor bronze sourcing/etching business :) Hmm Rix Stix was kinda a cute name but the only thing I have to describe me which rhymes with Stix, er, well...we'll have to come up with a new name, I guess.

                              BTW, at the last show somebody referred to the '5-finger' (or 3- or 2- in our case) as the 0-5-0 switcher. I thought that was funny!


                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Well, a million dollars does sound tempting, however I imagine the end
                              dollar figure in my off shore account will continue to remain rather measly.


                              Some one does need to reinvent this tool. Why don't you do it John and
                              become rich and famous......uh, I mean infamous.

                              Loren




                              -------Original Message-------

                              From: John D. Duino
                              Date: 01/17/12 09:38:41
                              To: z scale
                              Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: Uncoupling

                              Obviously you don't mean millions of DOLLARS, but it would be a worthwhile
                              tool. How much ya' willing to pay for one? (tell me a million dollars and I
                              ll sell you two).


                              ----- Original Message -----
                              This sounds like something that should be reinvented for us today.

                              Anyone want to give it a try? Why just think of the millions you could
                              make? Hmmmmm........




                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                              ------------------------------------

                              Z-scale: minimum siZe, MAXIMUM enjoyment!
                              Yahoo! Groups Links
                            • ckuttner
                              I read something similar in a tip in Model Railroading years ago. If I recall correctly, I used the shaft from a small paintbrush, cut a slit in it, and put in
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jan 17, 2012
                                I read something similar in a tip in Model Railroading years ago. If I recall correctly, I used the shaft from a small paintbrush, cut a slit in it, and put in a small triangle of fairly stiff acetate and used it on my HO trains--I imagine one could use some of material used in blister-packing electronic gadgets to make one zuitable for Z.

                                --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff" <sjbazman49@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > You can use a very sharp (thin) pick to press into the coupler but its not perfect, especially with light cars.
                                >
                                >
                                > Jeff M
                                > SF Bay Area Z
                                >
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: Malcolm Cleaveland <mcleavel@...>
                                > Sender: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                > Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 00:43:51
                                > To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                                > Reply-To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: [Z_Scale] Uncoupling
                                >
                                > Folks,
                                >
                                > In RR operations, coupling and uncoupling cars are critical operations
                                > in classification yards and when servicing trackside industries. I know
                                > the newest AZL couplers will couple when shoved against MTL, AZL or Full
                                > Throttle couplers (or at least most of the time). But what is the
                                > approved technique for uncoupling AZL or Full Throttle cars? I asked this
                                > question previously, but it was never answered. So I guess the answer is
                                > easy, and it's obvious to everyone except me.
                                >
                                > CheerZ,
                                > -- Malcolm Z
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------
                                >
                                > Z-scale: minimum siZe, MAXIMUM enjoyment!
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                              • de Champeaux Dominique
                                De : ckuttner À : z_scale@yahoogroups.com Envoyé le : Mercredi 18 Janvier 2012 6h35 Objet : [Z_Scale] Re: Uncoupling   ...    
                                Message 15 of 18 , Jan 18, 2012
                                  De : ckuttner <ckuttner@...>
                                  À : z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                  Envoyé le : Mercredi 18 Janvier 2012 6h35
                                  Objet : [Z_Scale] Re: Uncoupling


                                   
                                  >I read something similar in a tip in Model Railroading years ago. If I recall correctly, I used the shaft from a small paintbrush, cut a slit in it, and put in a small >triangle of fairly stiff acetate and used it on my HO trains--I imagine one could use some of material used in blister-packing electronic gadgets to make one >zuitable for Z.
                                   
                                   
                                  There's a fairly easier, cheaper and faster way to obtain such a tool: using a brand new toothpick. That's what I'm doing in locations where I need to uncouple and where I (unproperly) didn't set any magnets or electromagnets.
                                   
                                  Dom

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Jeff
                                  You can use a very sharp (thin) pick to press into the coupler but its not perfect, especially with light cars. Jeff M SF Bay Area Z ... From: Malcolm
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Jan 18, 2012
                                    You can use a very sharp (thin) pick to press into the coupler but its not perfect, especially with light cars.


                                    Jeff M
                                    SF Bay Area Z

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Malcolm Cleaveland <mcleavel@...>
                                    Sender: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 00:43:51
                                    To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Reply-To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: [Z_Scale] Uncoupling

                                    Folks,

                                    In RR operations, coupling and uncoupling cars are critical operations
                                    in classification yards and when servicing trackside industries. I know
                                    the newest AZL couplers will couple when shoved against MTL, AZL or Full
                                    Throttle couplers (or at least most of the time). But what is the
                                    approved technique for uncoupling AZL or Full Throttle cars? I asked this
                                    question previously, but it was never answered. So I guess the answer is
                                    easy, and it's obvious to everyone except me.

                                    CheerZ,
                                    -- Malcolm Z



                                    ------------------------------------

                                    Z-scale: minimum siZe, MAXIMUM enjoyment!
                                    Yahoo! Groups Links
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