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Re : [Z_Scale] What happened to the power?

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  • de Champeaux Dominique
    All that is stated below makes me think to a short.... How many feeders have you on your layout? One on each track section? Myself I d check all the wiring as
    Message 1 of 11 , Jul 2, 2009
      All that is stated below makes me think to a short.... How many feeders have you on your layout? One on each track section? Myself I'd check all the wiring as it looks like track is OK....
       
      Dom

      --- En date de : Mer 1.7.09, Matt Parker <echo31a@...> a écrit :


      De: Matt Parker <echo31a@...>
      Objet: [Z_Scale] What happened to the power?
      À: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Mercredi 1 Juillet 2009, 22h56








      After several weeks of redesigning and planning on my layout, I finally finished a full mock up of what the main part of the layout. In order to operate my trains during the construction phase, I install two turn-around loops with remote turnouts. I wanted to try it out to see how everything was working including the loops, tunnels, bridges and turnouts. I hooked up my power pack to the feeder track, placed one of my GP9's on the main line, and turned on the juice. All I got was very slow movement out of the engine at full throttle. "That can't be right." I said. "Somethings wrong somewhere." So I removed that engine and put on the GP35. Same thing, very slow movement at full throttle.
      I have to confess that I know very little about electricity and how if flows and my son who is the master electrician is away for a month.
      I thought that maybe the problem was the power pack so I switched to the other and it was the same thing. I then wondered if maybe there was a lose connection on either the pack or the feeder track. Everything seems to be in order. So why am I only getting a trickle of power to the track? I employe my volt meter and put the probes to the back of the packs and each one shows an appropriate amount of power output for the position of the throttle, 10v being at the top end as indicated for z scale performance. I also wondered if it was the wire I was using from the pack to the feeder. So I disconnected it and took the pack and the wire and connected them to the feeder track on my finished module. I plugged it in, gave it the juice and it powered all my engines around the 4 by 2 mod with no effort at all. So what is going on here?
      I reconnected my larger power pack to my layout feeder and as I applied the juice, I put the probes from the meter on the connections of the feeder where the wire joins. There's no power getting through, or at least barely enough to move the meter needle. I examined the wire and I can find no evidence of breaks and there is nothing touching to cause a short circuit. Keep in mind that I am getting very slow movement out of any given engine but it is only for about 5 feet in either direction. After that it quits. I'm beginning to wonder if the speaker wire I'm using to feed my track from the power pack is adequte. It seemed to work fine on the small mod.
      Can anyone give me an idea as to what is going on here?
      Some questions that may help define the problem.
      1. Is speaker wire alright to use in this application?
      2. Am I trying to power too much track with one power pack? I have approximately 70 feet of track with two reverse loops, 3 sidings or passing tracks, and 8 remote turnouts that are at this time are unpowered.
      3. Could the feeder track be defective? It's the same one I've had since I bought my starter set in September last year but it hasn't been used in almost 5 months.
      4. I have examined every inch of track and I can't find a break anywhere. Is it possible that there is a short occuring somewhere and I can't find it?
      5. Why do I get 8 to 10v of power at the back of the power pack at full throttle, yet nothing or very little at the feeder track?
      One final thing. I noticed that on my Tech 220, when I increase power to the track, the pilot light dims. It's bright at 0 output, but as I increase the throttle, it dims to almost out. I don't have a pilot light on the MRC 1300 but I suspect it would do the same thing. It doesn't do this when connected to my small module.
      Any ideas? I need to get this phase up and running to conduct more experiments before beginning construction.
      Thanks
      Matt



















      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Matthew Parker
      Good morning Dom. I only have one feeder track smack dab in the middle of my mock up. It is powering everything, or at least that what I thought it would do. I
      Message 2 of 11 , Jul 2, 2009
        Good morning Dom.

        I only have one feeder track smack dab in the middle of my mock up. It is powering everything, or at least that what I thought it would do. I have repeatedly checked the connections at the pack and feeder and nothing appears to be touching. I only have one wire running from the power pack to the feeder track. None of the turnouts are hooked up as yet.

        I did think of something else though. Both my turnaround loops are coming off of the same turnout. In other words one turn out for each loop. The main goes out from the straight portion of the turnout and comes back in the other side. Should these maybe be blocked or isolated with separate controls for each?

        Also my passing tracks, should they be isolated as well and have separate power controls.

        I'm very disappointed by this. It has taken me and my brother-in-law almost 2 months to get this far. I'm very discouraged at this point.

        I don't recall having this problem with my HO or N scale layouts.

        M



        To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
        From: ddechamp71@...
        Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 13:32:18 +0000
        Subject: Re : [Z_Scale] What happened to the power?


        All that is stated below makes me think to a short.... How many feeders have you on your layout? One on each track section? Myself I'd check all the wiring as it looks like track is OK....

        Dom
      • Edward Scullin
        MattI agree that it sounds like you have a short circuit somewhere on the track.Change your Volt meter to read resistance (ohms) and connect it to where you
        Message 3 of 11 , Jul 2, 2009
          MattI agree that it sounds like you have a short circuit somewhere on the track.Change your Volt meter to read resistance (ohms) and connect it to where you normally apply power.  It should not have any reading (or very high resistance).If you have a low reading start by manually throwing each of your switches.  If it goes away you need to add an isolated rail joiner.  Be especially careful with the reversing loops.  Check each of your isolated rail joiners (gaps) carefully to make sure the y are still openIf this doesn't show the problem then disconnect your feeder wires one at a time.  Its easy to get them reversed if you are not thinking carefully or in a hurry.I think that these steps should eliminate the problem.
          ED ScullinRoanoke VA

          --- On Thu, 7/2/09, de Champeaux Dominique <ddechamp71@...> wrote:

          From: de Champeaux Dominique <ddechamp71@...>
          Subject: Re : [Z_Scale] What happened to the power?
          To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Thursday, July 2, 2009, 6:32 AM
























          All that is stated below makes me think to a short.... How many feeders have you on your layout? One on each track section? Myself I'd check all the wiring as it looks like track is OK....

           

          Dom



          --- En date de : Mer 1.7.09, Matt Parker <echo31a@hotmail. com> a écrit :



          De: Matt Parker <echo31a@hotmail. com>

          Objet: [Z_Scale] What happened to the power?

          À: z_scale@yahoogroups .com

          Date: Mercredi 1 Juillet 2009, 22h56



          After several weeks of redesigning and planning on my layout, I finally finished a full mock up of what the main part of the layout. In order to operate my trains during the construction phase, I install two turn-around loops with remote turnouts. I wanted to try it out to see how everything was working including the loops, tunnels, bridges and turnouts. I hooked up my power pack to the feeder track, placed one of my GP9's on the main line, and turned on the juice. All I got was very slow movement out of the engine at full throttle. "That can't be right." I said. "Somethings wrong somewhere." So I removed that engine and put on the GP35. Same thing, very slow movement at full throttle.

          I have to confess that I know very little about electricity and how if flows and my son who is the master electrician is away for a month.

          I thought that maybe the problem was the power pack so I switched to the other and it was the same thing. I then wondered if maybe there was a lose connection on either the pack or the feeder track. Everything seems to be in order. So why am I only getting a trickle of power to the track? I employe my volt meter and put the probes to the back of the packs and each one shows an appropriate amount of power output for the position of the throttle, 10v being at the top end as indicated for z scale performance. I also wondered if it was the wire I was using from the pack to the feeder. So I disconnected it and took the pack and the wire and connected them to the feeder track on my finished module. I plugged it in, gave it the juice and it powered all my engines around the 4 by 2 mod with no effort at all. So what is going on here?

          I reconnected my larger power pack to my layout feeder and as I applied the juice, I put the probes from the meter on the connections of the feeder where the wire joins. There's no power getting through, or at least barely enough to move the meter needle. I examined the wire and I can find no evidence of breaks and there is nothing touching to cause a short circuit. Keep in mind that I am getting very slow movement out of any given engine but it is only for about 5 feet in either direction. After that it quits. I'm beginning to wonder if the speaker wire I'm using to feed my track from the power pack is adequte. It seemed to work fine on the small mod.

          Can anyone give me an idea as to what is going on here?

          Some questions that may help define the problem.

          1. Is speaker wire alright to use in this application?

          2. Am I trying to power too much track with one power pack? I have approximately 70 feet of track with two reverse loops, 3 sidings or passing tracks, and 8 remote turnouts that are at this time are unpowered.

          3. Could the feeder track be defective? It's the same one I've had since I bought my starter set in September last year but it hasn't been used in almost 5 months.

          4. I have examined every inch of track and I can't find a break anywhere. Is it possible that there is a short occuring somewhere and I can't find it?

          5. Why do I get 8 to 10v of power at the back of the power pack at full throttle, yet nothing or very little at the feeder track?

          One final thing. I noticed that on my Tech 220, when I increase power to the track, the pilot light dims. It's bright at 0 output, but as I increase the throttle, it dims to almost out. I don't have a pilot light on the MRC 1300 but I suspect it would do the same thing. It doesn't do this when connected to my small module.

          Any ideas? I need to get this phase up and running to conduct more experiments before beginning construction.

          Thanks

          Matt



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

































          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Matthew Parker
          Thanks ED and everyone else. The suggestion about breaking the rails in my loops did in fact solve the problem. I took apart one section of track in each loop
          Message 4 of 11 , Jul 2, 2009
            Thanks ED and everyone else. The suggestion about breaking the rails in my loops did in fact solve the problem. I took apart one section of track in each loop just before the turnout and low and behold, my engines ran up to speed, some better then others but that's to be expected. Unfortunately I can't buy insulated rail joiners here. None of the z scale hobby shops carry them and I haven't seen them on Ebay lately. But it does work.

            But having solved that problem I have encountered another. One of my GP 9 and both my 35's are getting hung up on all but two of my turnouts. When they cross them, they stop and spin and I have to push them to get them going. It's like the wheels are being squeezed when they cross the frog or the plastic dummy rails that are bent at both ends. I don't understand why some engines navigate these turnouts with no problems while others are getting hung up. It's not like they aren't getting power, they are or they wouldn't be sitting there spinning.

            I've also discovered a number of places in my track where I have to push them more firmly together. I'm getting a lot of jumping in some parts and even some stalling.

            But at least one problem is solved. Thanks guys.
          • Thomas Creighton Sr
            hi: since you cant get insulated rail joiners just use your dremel tool or a track saw and cut thru the track and fill the gaps with glue, let it dry and
            Message 5 of 11 , Jul 2, 2009
              hi: since you cant get insulated rail joiners just use your dremel tool or a track saw and cut thru the track and fill the gaps with glue, let it dry and lightly sand the top and side of the track so you will have a smooth transition. If necessary heat a track nail in a candle and with long nose pliers use the nail to go thru the tie and fasten it down on both sides of the rail before you cut it in place. hope this helps. tom

              --- On Thu, 7/2/09, Matthew Parker <echo31a@...> wrote:


              From: Matthew Parker <echo31a@...>
              Subject: RE: Re : [Z_Scale] What happened to the power?
              To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thursday, July 2, 2009, 12:14 PM








              Thanks ED and everyone else. The suggestion about breaking the rails in my loops did in fact solve the problem. I took apart one section of track in each loop just before the turnout and low and behold, my engines ran up to speed, some better then others but that's to be expected. Unfortunately I can't buy insulated rail joiners here. None of the z scale hobby shops carry them and I haven't seen them on Ebay lately. But it does work.

              But having solved that problem I have encountered another. One of my GP 9 and both my 35's are getting hung up on all but two of my turnouts. When they cross them, they stop and spin and I have to push them to get them going. It's like the wheels are being squeezed when they cross the frog or the plastic dummy rails that are bent at both ends. I don't understand why some engines navigate these turnouts with no problems while others are getting hung up. It's not like they aren't getting power, they are or they wouldn't be sitting there spinning.

              I've also discovered a number of places in my track where I have to push them more firmly together. I'm getting a lot of jumping in some parts and even some stalling.

              But at least one problem is solved. Thanks guys.
















              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Loren
              Why ruin a tie with huge ugly holes? Use some CA glue to hold the tie in place. Clean, neat, and no ugly soot to get all over the tie......and, no holes to
              Message 6 of 11 , Jul 2, 2009
                Why ruin a tie with huge ugly holes? Use some CA glue to hold the tie in
                place. Clean, neat, and no ugly soot to get all over the tie......and, no
                holes to have to fill later.
                Loren

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Thomas Creighton Sr" <bigtrain6@...>
                To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 8:34 PM
                Subject: RE: Re : [Z_Scale] What happened to the power?


                > hi: since you cant get insulated rail joiners just use your dremel tool or
                > a track saw and cut thru the track and fill the gaps with glue, let it dry
                > and lightly sand the top and side of the track so you will have a smooth
                > transition. If necessary heat a track nail in a candle and with long nose
                > pliers use the nail to go thru the tie and fasten it down on both sides of
                > the rail before you cut it in place. hope this helps. tom
                >
              • de Champeaux Dominique
                ... Were these loops properly working in the beginning? And did you isolate each rail in order to change polarity prior to returning to main track? In the case
                Message 7 of 11 , Jul 3, 2009
                  >In other words one turn out for each loop. The main goes out from the >straight portion of the turnout and comes back in the other side. Should >these maybe be blocked or isolated with separate controls for each?


                  Were these loops properly working in the beginning? And did you isolate each rail in order to change polarity prior to returning to main track? In the case of a loop that's the same problem than a wye. If you have no isolation you have a short....

                  Dom
                • de Champeaux Dominique
                  ... If you re using sectional track, simply cut a gap between two rails. If you re using flextrack that s better to put an insulating joiner and if your local
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jul 3, 2009
                    >Unfortunately I can't buy insulated rail joiners here. None of the z >scale hobby shops carry them and I haven't seen them on Ebay lately. But >it does work.

                    If you're using sectional track, simply cut a gap between two rails. If you're using flextrack that's better to put an insulating joiner and if your local hobby shop doesn't carry any you may purchase some Peco code 55 samples.

                    >But having solved that problem I have encountered another. One of my GP 9 >and both my 35's are getting hung up on all but two of my turnouts. When >they cross them, they stop and spin and I have to push them to get them >going.

                    You should purchase a Micro-Trains track gauge and check your motive power's wheel gauge, maybe the problem is there.


                    >I've also discovered a number of places in my track where I have to push >them more firmly together. I'm getting a lot of jumping in some parts and >even some stalling.

                    In my opinion, the best results are obtained with a feeder to every track section, under eacch joiner for example (and you should solder each track section to each other as well). That's what I've done on my layout under construction and my trains run flawlessly.

                    And forget track and wheel cleaning.

                    Hope this helps,

                    Dom
                  • Matthew Parker
                    I have been investigating the track gauge but again that s something none of the hobby shops here carry. At least for z scale. We seem to be very limited as to
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jul 3, 2009
                      I have been investigating the track gauge but again that's something none of the hobby shops here carry. At least for z scale. We seem to be very limited as to what we can buy for z up here. Oh we can get track, and cars and engines by the truckload, but things like scenery, buildings, cars and trucks, people and track gauges and other such instruments are as scare as lottery winners. I'm have to get a lot of my stuff by mailorder from dealers. As for soldering the joints of my track, yes I plan to do that when I am doing my final phase of construction and all is set in place and I'm satisfied with where everything is going and how it is working. Makes no sense to do it now.

                      Thank Dom



                      To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                      From: ddechamp71@...
                      Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 14:05:38 +0000
                      Subject: RE: Re : [Z_Scale] What happened to the power?








                      >Unfortunately I can't buy insulated rail joiners here. None of the z >scale hobby shops carry them and I haven't seen them on Ebay lately. But >it does work.

                      If you're using sectional track, simply cut a gap between two rails. If you're using flextrack that's better to put an insulating joiner and if your local hobby shop doesn't carry any you may purchase some Peco code 55 samples.

                      >But having solved that problem I have encountered another. One of my GP 9 >and both my 35's are getting hung up on all but two of my turnouts. When >they cross them, they stop and spin and I have to push them to get them >going.

                      You should purchase a Micro-Trains track gauge and check your motive power's wheel gauge, maybe the problem is there.

                      >I've also discovered a number of places in my track where I have to push >them more firmly together. I'm getting a lot of jumping in some parts and >even some stalling.

                      In my opinion, the best results are obtained with a feeder to every track section, under eacch joiner for example (and you should solder each track section to each other as well). That's what I've done on my layout under construction and my trains run flawlessly.

                      And forget track and wheel cleaning.

                      Hope this helps,

                      Dom









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                    • Matthew Parker
                      I can t say that the loops were working at all because my engines never got that far. No I didn t use any insulation of any kind thus the short. I am going to
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jul 3, 2009
                        I can't say that the loops were working at all because my engines never got that far. No I didn't use any insulation of any kind thus the short. I am going to use block and controls for the loops. Seem like the only possible way to proceed in this case.



                        To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                        From: ddechamp71@...
                        Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 13:47:48 +0000
                        Subject: RE: Re : [Z_Scale] What happened to the power?








                        >In other words one turn out for each loop. The main goes out from the >straight portion of the turnout and comes back in the other side. Should >these maybe be blocked or isolated with separate controls for each?

                        Were these loops properly working in the beginning? And did you isolate each rail in order to change polarity prior to returning to main track? In the case of a loop that's the same problem than a wye. If you have no isolation you have a short....

                        Dom









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                        Create a cool, new character for your Windows Live� Messenger.
                        http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9656621

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                      • Matthew Parker
                        Thanks Tom and Loren. Those are some of the things I will be looking at when it comes time for the final construction phase and everything gets put in place
                        Message 11 of 11 , Jul 3, 2009
                          Thanks Tom and Loren. Those are some of the things I will be looking at when it comes time for the final construction phase and everything gets put in place for the last time. I'm just looking at a temporary solution for this phase. I'm using straight pins into styrofoam insulation to hold my tracks in place in it seems to be working rather well.



                          To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                          From: ljsnyder@...
                          Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 23:30:24 -0700
                          Subject: Re: Re : [Z_Scale] What happened to the power?







                          Why ruin a tie with huge ugly holes? Use some CA glue to hold the tie in
                          place. Clean, neat, and no ugly soot to get all over the tie......and, no
                          holes to have to fill later.
                          Loren

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Thomas Creighton Sr" <bigtrain6@...>
                          To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 8:34 PM
                          Subject: RE: Re : [Z_Scale] What happened to the power?

                          > hi: since you cant get insulated rail joiners just use your dremel tool or
                          > a track saw and cut thru the track and fill the gaps with glue, let it dry
                          > and lightly sand the top and side of the track so you will have a smooth
                          > transition. If necessary heat a track nail in a candle and with long nose
                          > pliers use the nail to go thru the tie and fasten it down on both sides of
                          > the rail before you cut it in place. hope this helps. tom
                          >









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