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My Empire Phase 1

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  • Matt Parker
    So everyone can see what it is I ve undertaken, I took some pictures of phase 1 of my Empire. It is important to note that the masking tape represents the
    Message 1 of 19 , Feb 27, 2009
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      So everyone can see what it is I've undertaken, I took some pictures
      of phase 1 of my Empire. It is important to note that the masking
      tape represents the track, and black electical tape represents the
      Trans Canada Highway as it passes through Kicking Horse Pass and
      splits the Spiral Tunnels. As it stand right now, I am looking at 4
      or 5 tables of 2 foot wide and no more then 8 ft long. Most tables
      will be 4 foot.
      The styrofoam represents the grades, rises, and approximate track
      levels when complete in two years.
      This is only a rough approximation. The back tables may be moved back
      and ahead toward the camera to butt up against the lower spiral
      table, thus allowing for a slightly longer track from there to the
      curve at the bottom of the climb, and the curve to be on the same
      table as the climb and upper spiral. I am contemplating putting the
      upper spiral on a table by itself as the lower one is. Tables 1 and 2
      may be incorporated into one 8 foot and one 4 foot length. Departure
      track on table 6 may be used for a loop back as will departure track
      from Field so that train can be used during construction of scenery.
      Tables are numbered from 1 to 6 and at this point, run north and
      south. Actual line though this area of the mountains runs west to
      east. I've posted the photos in Matt's stuff. If you have trouble
      following it, just let me know. Table 1 is the departure track from
      Field BC.
      Suggestions anyone?
    • Don A
      I would toss all that white packing foam on the next trash day. The amount of time you will put into the layout will just be wiped out using this material.
      Message 2 of 19 , Feb 27, 2009
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        I would toss all that white packing foam on the next trash day. The
        amount of time you will put into the layout will just be wiped out
        using this material.

        Remember, "Free advice is worth what you pay."

        ...don



        --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Matt Parker" <echo31a@...> wrote:
        >
        > So everyone can see what it is I've undertaken, I took some pictures
        > of phase 1 of my Empire. It is important to note that the masking
        > tape represents the track, and black electical tape represents the
        > Trans Canada Highway as it passes through Kicking Horse Pass and
        > splits the Spiral Tunnels. As it stand right now, I am looking at 4
        > or 5 tables of 2 foot wide and no more then 8 ft long. Most tables
        > will be 4 foot.
        > The styrofoam represents the grades, rises, and approximate track
        > levels when complete in two years.
        > This is only a rough approximation. The back tables may be moved back
        > and ahead toward the camera to butt up against the lower spiral
        > table, thus allowing for a slightly longer track from there to the
        > curve at the bottom of the climb, and the curve to be on the same
        > table as the climb and upper spiral. I am contemplating putting the
        > upper spiral on a table by itself as the lower one is. Tables 1 and 2
        > may be incorporated into one 8 foot and one 4 foot length. Departure
        > track on table 6 may be used for a loop back as will departure track
        > from Field so that train can be used during construction of scenery.
        > Tables are numbered from 1 to 6 and at this point, run north and
        > south. Actual line though this area of the mountains runs west to
        > east. I've posted the photos in Matt's stuff. If you have trouble
        > following it, just let me know. Table 1 is the departure track from
        > Field BC.
        > Suggestions anyone?
        >
      • Daniel Baechtold
        Hi Matt, I just checked your pictures and think I should put in my 2cent... first, as a canadian railfan, I like your idea: the climb to kicking horse pass is
        Message 3 of 19 , Feb 27, 2009
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          Hi Matt,

          I just checked your pictures and think I should put in my 2cent...

          first, as a canadian railfan, I like your idea: the climb to kicking horse pass is a beautiful scene! I thought about building myself a scene like this some time ago...

          Please consider this: with a 2.5% grade, I strongly recommend a minimal radius of at least 490mm; else you'll be disappointed when running long trains (more than ~20 cars), because the weight of the 2nd part of the train will tear the cars up front out of the track!!! (don't ask me how I know this... :-( (r.i.p. layout #8)

          ah, found a cool pic about this topic:
          http://railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=115681&nseq=2


          to be able to imagine the track alignment on the layout, try to make a model of the model. Just a little model at 1:10 (or 1:5) scale of your layout, made of cardboard. Changes and corrections are made much easier like this and the most important: you get a feeling for the track, winding along the flanks of mountains; you'll be able to position bridges, tunnels, snowsheds, yards, etc. much more where they really belong, where the right of way needs it to be. Avoid the spectator getting the impression that the landscape was built to fit the tracks; because the tracks were laid fitting the landscape...

          Here you'll find map material of the kicking horse pass&spiral tunnels:
          http://railways-atlas.tapor.ualberta.ca/cocoon/atlas/Maps-14-1-9/

          (just in case) :-) or ask me!

          hope you're still willing to build a layout after reading my email. don't worry, just giv'em a try!!! ;-)

          best wishes, Daniel
          --
          daniel baechtold
          ahornstrasse 3
          ch-4313 moehlin

          daniel.baechtold@...
          http://www.caribou.lake.ch.vu/

          Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger gehört? Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger01
        • Matthew Parker
          Hey Dan. First of all, I don t do metric so I have no idea what this minimal radius is your talking about. Second, as far as long trains go, I was planning on
          Message 4 of 19 , Feb 27, 2009
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            Hey Dan.



            First of all, I don't do metric so I have no idea what this minimal radius is your talking about.

            Second, as far as long trains go, I was planning on something like 35 to maybe 40 cars, but with pusher engines either in the middle or at the end.

            Third, about the picture you sent. OOPS!!! That's a fine mess to clean up.

            Fourth, I was considering the model as well. Don't know yet if I'm going to do that.

            Fifth, theres a model railroad club in BC. our of either Golden or Revelstoke who have modeld the Kicking Horse Pass and tunnels in HO. I saw this last year and that's why I've decided to do it in Z.

            Finally, that's for the map. It will be quite useful.



            Matt





            To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
            From: daniel.baechtold@...
            Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 02:05:59 +0100
            Subject: [Z_Scale] My Empire Phase 1





            Hi Matt,

            I just checked your pictures and think I should put in my 2cent...

            first, as a canadian railfan, I like your idea: the climb to kicking horse pass is a beautiful scene! I thought about building myself a scene like this some time ago...

            Please consider this: with a 2.5% grade, I strongly recommend a minimal radius of at least 490mm; else you'll be disappointed when running long trains (more than ~20 cars), because the weight of the 2nd part of the train will tear the cars up front out of the track!!! (don't ask me how I know this... :-( (r.i.p. layout #8)

            ah, found a cool pic about this topic:
            http://railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=115681&nseq=2

            to be able to imagine the track alignment on the layout, try to make a model of the model. Just a little model at 1:10 (or 1:5) scale of your layout, made of cardboard. Changes and corrections are made much easier like this and the most important: you get a feeling for the track, winding along the flanks of mountains; you'll be able to position bridges, tunnels, snowsheds, yards, etc. much more where they really belong, where the right of way needs it to be. Avoid the spectator getting the impression that the landscape was built to fit the tracks; because the tracks were laid fitting the landscape...

            Here you'll find map material of the kicking horse pass&spiral tunnels:
            http://railways-atlas.tapor.ualberta.ca/cocoon/atlas/Maps-14-1-9/

            (just in case) :-) or ask me!

            hope you're still willing to build a layout after reading my email. don't worry, just giv'em a try!!! ;-)

            best wishes, Daniel
            --
            daniel baechtold
            ahornstrasse 3
            ch-4313 moehlin

            daniel.baechtold@...
            http://www.caribou.lake.ch.vu/

            Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger gehört? Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger01








            _________________________________________________________________
            So many new options, so little time. Windows Live Messenger.
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          • Matthew Parker
            I was only using the white foam as a very rough template. I m actually going to use it. It is just there to give an conceptual idea of heights, and distances
            Message 5 of 19 , Feb 27, 2009
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              I was only using the white foam as a very rough template. I'm actually going to use it. It is just there to give an conceptual idea of heights, and distances and grades.



              To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
              From: zbarr474@...
              Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 23:07:08 +0000
              Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: My Empire Phase 1





              I would toss all that white packing foam on the next trash day. The
              amount of time you will put into the layout will just be wiped out
              using this material.

              Remember, "Free advice is worth what you pay."

              ...don

              --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Matt Parker" <echo31a@...> wrote:
              >
              > So everyone can see what it is I've undertaken, I took some pictures
              > of phase 1 of my Empire. It is important to note that the masking
              > tape represents the track, and black electical tape represents the
              > Trans Canada Highway as it passes through Kicking Horse Pass and
              > splits the Spiral Tunnels. As it stand right now, I am looking at 4
              > or 5 tables of 2 foot wide and no more then 8 ft long. Most tables
              > will be 4 foot.
              > The styrofoam represents the grades, rises, and approximate track
              > levels when complete in two years.
              > This is only a rough approximation. The back tables may be moved back
              > and ahead toward the camera to butt up against the lower spiral
              > table, thus allowing for a slightly longer track from there to the
              > curve at the bottom of the climb, and the curve to be on the same
              > table as the climb and upper spiral. I am contemplating putting the
              > upper spiral on a table by itself as the lower one is. Tables 1 and 2
              > may be incorporated into one 8 foot and one 4 foot length. Departure
              > track on table 6 may be used for a loop back as will departure track
              > from Field so that train can be used during construction of scenery.
              > Tables are numbered from 1 to 6 and at this point, run north and
              > south. Actual line though this area of the mountains runs west to
              > east. I've posted the photos in Matt's stuff. If you have trouble
              > following it, just let me know. Table 1 is the departure track from
              > Field BC.
              > Suggestions anyone?
              >









              _________________________________________________________________
              Windows Live Messenger. Multitasking at its finest.
              http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/messenger.aspx

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Loren
              Just wondering for anyone that might know..........the curves that Matt is planning, wouldn t it be likely that pusher locos in the middle on those tight
              Message 6 of 19 , Feb 27, 2009
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                Just wondering for anyone that might know..........the curves that Matt is
                planning, wouldn't it be likely that pusher locos in the middle on those
                tight radius may cause derailments?

                And Matt, it's time you learned metric, it takes a bit of comparing and
                practice, but soon you'll have a fairly good idea of how long a centimeter
                is in comparrison to English measurements. Buy yourself a combo ruler with
                metric on one side and English on the other and you'll soon get the hang of
                it. You don't have to be real fluent in the exact amounts, but it will help
                you tune in quickly when someone is talking metric.......

                Loren

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Matthew Parker" <echo31a@...>
                To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 6:12 PM
                Subject: RE: [Z_Scale] My Empire Phase 1



                Hey Dan.



                First of all, I don't do metric so I have no idea what this minimal radius
                is your talking about.

                Second, as far as long trains go, I was planning on something like 35 to
                maybe 40 cars, but with pusher engines either in the middle or at the end.

                Third, about the picture you sent. OOPS!!! That's a fine mess to clean up.

                Fourth, I was considering the model as well. Don't know yet if I'm going to
                do that.

                Fifth, theres a model railroad club in BC. our of either Golden or
                Revelstoke who have modeld the Kicking Horse Pass and tunnels in HO. I saw
                this last year and that's why I've decided to do it in Z.

                Finally, that's for the map. It will be quite useful.



                Matt
              • Larry Card
                ... 25.4 mm to the inch. In the semiconductor industry this measurement is fudged quite a bit for wafer sizes. 100mm is called 4 , even though 4 = 101.6mm in
                Message 7 of 19 , Feb 27, 2009
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                  > And Matt, it's time you learned metric, it takes a bit of comparing and
                  > practice, but soon you'll have a fairly good idea of how long a centimeter
                  > is in comparrison to English measurements. Buy yourself a combo ruler with
                  > metric on one side and English on the other and you'll soon get the hang of
                  > it. You don't have to be real fluent in the exact amounts, but it will help
                  > you tune in quickly when someone is talking metric.......

                  25.4 mm to the inch.

                  In the semiconductor industry this measurement is fudged quite a bit for wafer sizes. 100mm is called 4", even though 4" = 101.6mm in the real world; 125mm is called 5" (5" = 127mm); 150mm is called 6" (6" = 152.4mm); 200mm is called 8" (8" = 203.2mm); and 300mm is called 12" (12" = 304.8). So, as you can see, you can estimate mm to inches pretty quickly by using a 25mm/in formula, even though it's not terribly accurate it will give you a quick ballpark figure.

                  Quick check: 145mm = not quite 6 inches ballpark figure; 145mm / 25.4 = 5.71" (not quite 5 and three quarters), so you can see it's pretty close for estimation purposes. If you have to be more accurate, you can do the actual math.

                  Standard Marklin geometry gives you 145 and 195mm radius curves, which come out to around 5 3/4 inches and 7 1/2 inches respectively. A 220mm curve would be about 8 1/2 inches, and the turnout curve of 480mm is just over 18 inches.

                  Good standard curves for Z would have been 250mm and 300mm, in my opinion, and maybe throw in a 275mm one for good measure (that would give you roughly 10", 11" and 12"). But, Marklin set the standards and they didn't consult me beforehand ;-) The standard 9 3/4 inch N scale train set curve would have been about 180mm in Z (a bit over 7").

                  10mm = 1 cm, so 100mm = 10cm = "4 inch", etc. etc.

                  V/R
                  Larry P. Card
                  Franklinton NC

                  _________________________________________________________________
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                • Loren
                  Daniel, I beleive the 490mm radius equals about a four foot diameter circle, meaning it wouldn t fit Matt s proposed 2 wide modules, or maybe I have the
                  Message 8 of 19 , Feb 27, 2009
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                    Daniel,
                    I beleive the 490mm radius equals about a four foot diameter circle, meaning
                    it wouldn't fit Matt's proposed 2' wide modules, or maybe I have the module
                    width wrong. There's been lots written on this layout subject and you kind
                    of get lost in all the info if you don't pay too close attention.......my
                    problem.
                    Loren

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Daniel Baechtold" <daniel.baechtold@...>
                    To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 5:05 PM
                    Subject: [Z_Scale] My Empire Phase 1


                    > Hi Matt,
                    >
                    > I just checked your pictures and think I should put in my 2cent...
                    >
                    > first, as a canadian railfan, I like your idea: the climb to kicking horse
                    > pass is a beautiful scene! I thought about building myself a scene like
                    > this some time ago...
                    >
                    > Please consider this: with a 2.5% grade, I strongly recommend a minimal
                    > radius of at least 490mm; else you'll be disappointed when running long
                    > trains (more than ~20 cars), because the weight of the 2nd part of the
                    > train will tear the cars up front out of the track!!! (don't ask me how I
                    > know this... :-( (r.i.p. layout #8)
                  • Larry Card
                    ... 490mm/25.4 = 19.29 V/R Larry P. Card Franklinton NC _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™ Hotmail®:…more
                    Message 9 of 19 , Feb 27, 2009
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                      > First of all, I don't do metric so I have no idea what this minimal radius is your talking about.


                      490mm/25.4 = 19.29"

                      V/R
                      Larry P. Card
                      Franklinton NC

                      _________________________________________________________________
                      Windows Live� Hotmail�:�more than just e-mail.
                      http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore_022009

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • de Champeaux Dominique
                      ... Hi Matthew, once more I m unable to find your pictures (the same than a few weeks ago when someone put a few pictures of a modified steamer). Could you put
                      Message 10 of 19 , Feb 28, 2009
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                        >So everyone can see what it is I've undertaken, I took some pictures
                        >of phase 1 of my Empire.

                        Hi Matthew, once more I'm unable to find your pictures (the same than a few weeks ago when someone put a few pictures of a modified steamer). Could you put a direct URL please?

                        Thanks,

                        Dom
                      • David K. Smith
                        Don t do metric? Let Google help. Go to Google (www.google.com). Type the following in the search box: 490 mm = ? in Google will respond with: 490 millimeters
                        Message 11 of 19 , Feb 28, 2009
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                          Don't do metric? Let Google help.

                          Go to Google (www.google.com).

                          Type the following in the search box:

                          490 mm = ? in

                          Google will respond with:

                          490 millimeters = 19.2913386 inches

                          Works for any type of conversion--linear measure, volume, currency,
                          you name it.

                          No math required.

                          --David

                          http://jamesriverbranch.net/
                          http://1-220.blogspot.com/

                          --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Matthew Parker <echo31a@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > Hey Dan.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > First of all, I don't do metric so I have no idea what this minimal
                          radius is your talking about.
                          >
                          > Second, as far as long trains go, I was planning on something like
                          35 to maybe 40 cars, but with pusher engines either in the middle or
                          at the end.
                          >
                          > Third, about the picture you sent. OOPS!!! That's a fine mess to
                          clean up.
                          >
                          > Fourth, I was considering the model as well. Don't know yet if I'm
                          going to do that.
                          >
                          > Fifth, theres a model railroad club in BC. our of either Golden or
                          Revelstoke who have modeld the Kicking Horse Pass and tunnels in HO.
                          I saw this last year and that's why I've decided to do it in Z.
                          >
                          > Finally, that's for the map. It will be quite useful.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Matt
                        • Chris
                          For converting between many units, there is an excellent little utility out there which you can download. You can find it at
                          Message 12 of 19 , Feb 28, 2009
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                            For converting between many units, there is an excellent little
                            utility out there which you can download. You can find it at
                            http://www.impact-test.co.uk/impact_mainv6/ps/shopcontent.asp?type=ConversionProg

                            I used to use this regularly when I was still at work and still use it
                            occasionally.

                            Best wishes,
                            Chris.

                            2009/2/28 David K. Smith <david@...>:
                            > Don't do metric? Let Google help.
                            >
                            > Go to Google (www.google.com).
                            >
                            > Type the following in the search box:
                            >
                            > 490 mm = ? in
                            >
                            > Google will respond with:
                            >
                            > 490 millimeters = 19.2913386 inches
                            >
                            > Works for any type of conversion--linear measure, volume, currency,
                            > you name it.
                            >
                            > No math required.
                            >
                            > --David
                            >
                            > http://jamesriverbranch.net/
                            > http://1-220.blogspot.com/


                            --
                            Chris Manvell
                            http://trains.manvell.org.uk, http://family.manvell.org.uk,
                            http://skye.manvell.org.uk, http://bahai-faith.manvell.org.uk.
                          • de Champeaux Dominique
                            Yet easier than that: multiply a value in inches by roughly 2.5 to obtain the value in centimeters. Ex: on the layout I m building minimum curve radius is 14 .
                            Message 13 of 19 , Feb 28, 2009
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                              Yet easier than that: multiply a value in inches by roughly 2.5 to obtain the value in centimeters.

                              Ex: on the layout I'm building minimum curve radius is 14".

                              14" x 2.5 = 35 centimeters (or 0.35 meter)

                              Dom


                              >Don't do metric? Let Google help.
                              >
                              >Go to Google (www.google. com).
                              >
                              >No math required.
                              >
                              >--David
                            • David K. Smith
                              Well, yes, that is easy. But for some folks, even something that easy is not that easy. Some aren t able to convert centemeters to millimeters. As I said,
                              Message 14 of 19 , Feb 28, 2009
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                                Well, yes, that is "easy." But for some folks, even something that
                                easy is not that easy. Some aren't able to convert centemeters to
                                millimeters. As I said, with the Google utility, no math is required.
                                You don't need to download or install anything. As long as you have a
                                browser, it's always there.

                                --David

                                http://jamesriverbranch.net/
                                http://1-220.blogspot.com/

                                --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, de Champeaux Dominique
                                <ddechamp71@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Yet easier than that: multiply a value in inches by roughly 2.5 to
                                obtain the value in centimeters.
                                >
                                > Ex: on the layout I'm building minimum curve radius is 14".
                                >
                                > 14" x 2.5 = 35 centimeters (or 0.35 meter)
                                >
                                > Dom
                                >
                                >
                                > >Don't do metric? Let Google help.
                                > >
                                > >Go to Google (www.google. com).
                                > >
                                > >No math required.
                                > >
                                > >--David
                                >
                              • Matthew Parker
                                Dom: Since you re already a member of Z-scale yahoogroups, it should be a simple means to find my photos. Enter the group, click on photos, and then go to the
                                Message 15 of 19 , Feb 28, 2009
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                                  Dom:

                                  Since you're already a member of Z-scale yahoogroups, it should be a simple means to find my photos. Enter the group, click on photos, and then go to the fourth photo page and my album is right at the bottom marked Matt's photos. Just click on that and you'll see all the photos I've posted since being here. If you still can't find it, I'll see if I can download them as an attachment to an email to you.

                                  Matt



                                  To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                  From: ddechamp71@...
                                  Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 12:16:27 +0000
                                  Subject: Re : [Z_Scale] My Empire Phase 1





                                  >So everyone can see what it is I've undertaken, I took some pictures
                                  >of phase 1 of my Empire.

                                  Hi Matthew, once more I'm unable to find your pictures (the same than a few weeks ago when someone put a few pictures of a modified steamer). Could you put a direct URL please?

                                  Thanks,

                                  Dom









                                  _________________________________________________________________
                                  Twice the fun�Share photos while you chat with Windows Live Messenger.
                                  http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/messenger.aspx

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Garth Hamilton
                                  Even easier look on home page at New Photos and they can all be viewed that way. Click the link at the bottom of this Yahoo Group message to get to the home
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Feb 28, 2009
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                                    Even easier look on home page at New Photos and they can all be
                                    viewed that way. Click the link at the bottom of this Yahoo Group
                                    message to get to the home page.

                                    cheers
                                    Garth




                                    --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Matthew Parker <echo31a@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Dom:
                                    >
                                    > Since you're already a member of Z-scale yahoogroups, it should be
                                    a simple means to find my photos. Enter the group, click on photos,
                                    and then go to the fourth photo page and my album is right at the
                                    bottom marked Matt's photos. Just click on that and you'll see all
                                    the photos I've posted since being here. If you still can't find it,
                                    I'll see if I can download them as an attachment to an email to you.
                                    >
                                    > Matt
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                    > From: ddechamp71@...
                                    > Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 12:16:27 +0000
                                    > Subject: Re : [Z_Scale] My Empire Phase 1
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > >So everyone can see what it is I've undertaken, I took some
                                    pictures
                                    > >of phase 1 of my Empire.
                                    >
                                    > Hi Matthew, once more I'm unable to find your pictures (the same
                                    than a few weeks ago when someone put a few pictures of a modified
                                    steamer). Could you put a direct URL please?
                                    >
                                    > Thanks,
                                    >
                                    > Dom
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > _________________________________________________________________
                                    > Twice the fun—Share photos while you chat with Windows Live
                                    Messenger.
                                    > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/messenger.aspx
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                  • Daniel Baechtold
                                    Loren, the 490mm radius is the radius of the micro-trains and märklin turnouts; 19.2 inches! AND the smallest radius 1:1 scale locomotives can handle... Matt,
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Mar 1, 2009
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                                      Loren,

                                      the 490mm radius is the radius of the micro-trains and märklin turnouts; 19.2 inches! AND the smallest radius 1:1 scale locomotives can handle...

                                      Matt,

                                      the 1:1 scale spiral tunnels do have a radius of 290 to 300 metres (~900ft), and in the tunnel the grade is just about 2.0% (because flange-to-rail friction in that steep curve makes the grade feeled 2.5%)

                                      A pusher loco surely would diminuish the possibilty of the cars overhanging to the inside of the curve, BUT only when it's 100% properly working and pushing every bit of every second constantly with the same force: seems a high challenge in z scale i think...

                                      I did quite a lot of experiences to find out the optimum for a minimal radius, because I want to run trains up to 70 cars (that length will be needed with the 490mm radius that a trains turns over itself in a loop or spiral!)
                                      Matt, I'd propose you should do some experiences for train length and max grade as well as minimal curve; so you can find out what minimal radius works best for your layout (and space you have to build the layout in). Just set up a spiral of track with a 2.5% grade and run some trains over it, modify train length or radius and you will get behind the secret :-)

                                      best wishes, Daniel



                                      <Daniel,
                                      >I beleive the 490mm radius equals about a four foot diameter circle, >meaning
                                      >it wouldn't fit Matt's proposed 2' wide modules, or maybe I have the module
                                      >width wrong. There's been lots written on this layout subject and you kind
                                      >of get lost in all the info if you don't pay too close attention.......my
                                      >problem.
                                      >Loren
                                      --
                                      daniel baechtold
                                      ahornstrasse 3
                                      ch-4313 moehlin

                                      daniel.baechtold@...
                                      http://www.caribou.lake.ch.vu/

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                                    • de Champeaux Dominique
                                      ... Thank you Matt, with your data I ve been able to find them. Very interresting project indeed! For the remaining, did you already set a complete trackplan?
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Mar 1, 2009
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                                        > Dom:
                                        >
                                        > Since you're already a member of Z-scale yahoogroups,
                                        > it should be a simple means to find my photos. Enter the
                                        > group, click on photos, and then go to the fourth photo page
                                        > and my album is right at the bottom marked Matt's
                                        > photos. Just click on that and you'll see all the photos
                                        > I've posted since being here. If you still can't
                                        > find it, I'll see if I can download them as an
                                        > attachment to an email to you.
                                        >
                                        > Matt


                                        Thank you Matt, with your data I've been able to find them. Very interresting project indeed! For the remaining, did you already set a complete trackplan?

                                        Will your layout be a "point to point", or a continuous loop with trains coming down to their point of departure via an helix for example?

                                        Dom
                                      • Matthew Parker
                                        If my dream come to fruition, it will be a continuous loop. Once a train leaves the pass and passes through Field, it will continue on and loop around a full
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Mar 2, 2009
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                                          If my dream come to fruition, it will be a continuous loop. Once a train leaves the pass and passes through Field, it will continue on and loop around a full 180 and come back down other tables behind the pass, But it will not be confined to table levels. I expect to have more mountains on the other side where my trains will climb and criss cross back and forth the full length of the tables until it gets back to the upper level again. There will be a marshalling yard, industrial sidings and a small city on the back side of the pass.

                                          The whole layout once complete, should be about 25 feet long, and 8 foot wide with a two foot aisle in the middle. The spiral tunnels will sort of be in the center with the aisle going around the end and back again. Something like a horseshow. The track at the upper level will be high enough that one can duck under just enough to walk comfortably through and I might put a lift bridge at the other end to walk back out, but I'm not sure about that yet. Total estimated time to complete. 15 to 20 years if I live long enough.



                                          To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                          From: ddechamp71@...
                                          Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 07:47:11 +0000
                                          Subject: RE: Re : [Z_Scale] My Empire Phase 1





                                          > Dom:
                                          >
                                          > Since you're already a member of Z-scale yahoogroups,
                                          > it should be a simple means to find my photos. Enter the
                                          > group, click on photos, and then go to the fourth photo page
                                          > and my album is right at the bottom marked Matt's
                                          > photos. Just click on that and you'll see all the photos
                                          > I've posted since being here. If you still can't
                                          > find it, I'll see if I can download them as an
                                          > attachment to an email to you.
                                          >
                                          > Matt

                                          Thank you Matt, with your data I've been able to find them. Very interresting project indeed! For the remaining, did you already set a complete trackplan?

                                          Will your layout be a "point to point", or a continuous loop with trains coming down to their point of departure via an helix for example?

                                          Dom









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