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Re: Yahoo is Tracking Group Members

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  • Ellsworth Geib
    Garth, I ve been around way too long not to fully understand most of what you say. I sent my first e-mail via Arpanet, for example, the precursor to the
    Message 1 of 14 , Jan 3, 2009
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      Garth,

      I've been around way too long not to fully understand most of what you say. I sent my first
      e-mail via Arpanet, for example, the precursor to the internet. And everything we did
      electronically where I worked (Defense Dept.) was recorded and stored for eternity. It's
      long been a problem that when something gets into "the computer", it is treated as sacred
      fact, whether it was a mistake or not. However, as "Don A" says, the idea of
      "following/shadowing/stalking you" with these Web Beacons was new to me. After my
      post, I learned of and visited

      http://networkadvertising.org/managing/opt_out.asp

      where I found several things beyond Yahoo that have me in their clutches, and I can't
      determine who or what they are. I despise the practice of having to Opt-Out rather than
      Opt-In. But I really, really dislike the idea that I am "In" and unaware of it.

      I'll have to see what is available for the Mac to help reduce some of this Big Brother stuff.

      Ell


      --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Garth Hamilton <garthah@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > It isn't just Yahoo that is doing this and this has been going on for
      > years. We get free services from any organization that can find out
      > about our habits and sell that information to others for marketing.
      > If you have a Norton total security package that is all inclusive
      > they will delete these web beacons and tracking cookies from your
      > system as often as your specify or as soon as they appear. If you
      > monitor the output from your computer you can see when your computer
      > tries to contact the internet and can block these devices from
      > passing their information. This feature is built into Windows XP and
      > Vista remember when you are asked each time something runs if you
      > really want to do this. Many of us get ticked as this and don't pay
      > attention to it and just say yes each time. There are other packages
      > that do a similar job some better than others. You can also build a
      > proxy server or subscribe to one of the cloaking services that hides
      > your actual IP from all sites you visit.
      >
      > But if you are that worried about such things you would be horrified
      > about what information the various credit bureaus hold on you. To
      > avoid tracking you have to start by running totally by cash, no
      > credit, no bank, no credit cards, no postal address, no federal tax
      > account, no doctors office visits, no dentist office visits, no
      > organized work where you receive a pay check no contact with the
      > police, no passport, no drivers license, don't attend school, don't
      > have your birth recorded, live so remote you are not included in a
      > census, don;'t fly, don't ride a train don't have a social insurance
      > number etc etc etc
      >
      > Get over it because everything you do in live to interact with others
      > leaves a trail that someone can and do record and track. Most of us
      > are totally unaware of all the data collection that goes on about us
      > and are horrified when we discover it. From the day you entered this
      > world people have been saving data on you. The older you get the
      > bigger the pile of data that is amassed gets.
      >
      > Happy New Year
      > all big brother is still watching
      >
      > Garth
      >
      > At 08:05 AM 1/2/2009, "Ellsworth Geib" geib@... you wrote:
      > >I received the following message from the Potomac Division of the NMRA.
      > >
      > >"Yahoo is Tracking Group Members
      > >
      > >Yahoo is now using "Web Beacons" to track every Yahoo Group user.
      > >It's similar to cookies,
      > >but allows Yahoo to record every website and every group you visit,
      > >even when you're not
      > >connected to Yahoo. Look at their updated privacy statement at
      > >
      > >http://info. yahoo.com/ privacy/us/ yahoo/details. html
      > >
      > >About half-way down the page, in the section on cookies, you will
      > >see a link that says
      > >WEB BEACONS.
      > >
      > >Click on the phrase "Web Beacons." On the page that opens, on the
      > >left find a box entitled
      > >"Opt-Out."
      > >
      > >In that section find "opt-out of interest-matched advertising" link
      > >that will let you "opt-
      > >out" of their snooping. Click it and then click the opt-out button
      > >on the next page.
      > >
      > >Note that Yahoo's invasion of your privacy - and your ability to
      > >opt-out of it - is not user-
      > >specific. It is MACHINE specific. That means you will have to
      > >opt-out on every computer
      > >(and browser) you use."
      > >
      > >
      > >It's getting a little scary what Yahoo and others can do behind our backs.
      > >
      > >Ell Geib
      >
    • David K. Smith
      Garth-- All quite true. There are tons of data on each of us. However, for those who are upset by this, bear a few things in mind. First, unless we revert back
      Message 2 of 14 , Jan 3, 2009
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        Garth--

        All quite true. There are tons of data on each of us. However, for
        those who are upset by this, bear a few things in mind.

        First, unless we revert back to keeping our greebacks under the
        mattress, modern life requires quite a bit of personal data to be
        stored and used.

        Second, 99.9% of "tracking" data is not used in a malicious way; it's
        the folks who don't have their compuers protected who should be
        worrying--they unwittingly help drive the data black market with
        their "zombie" computers acting as accomplices for the evildoers.
        It's unsettling to think that most spam and data theft schemes
        are "powered" by innocent people who just don't have a clue about
        their own computers, and leave them running unprotected 24/7.

        Third, the concept of "big brother" should really only scare people
        who have something to hide. True, on rare occasion some innocent Joe
        gets his life turned inside out by mistake, but people stand a much
        better chance of being killed in a car accident.

        Fourth, based on observations I've made of some data-keepers,
        our "secrets" are quite safe because they are in the hands of dimwits
        who haven't a clue how to manage the data they have--not to mention
        they have entirely too much data to manage in the first place. Safety
        in numbers!

        I used to lay awake nights fretting over my charge card number
        being "out there" for someone to misuse. But, I keep my compter very
        well protected, and I'm extremely mindful of the sites where I make
        transactions, and over time I've gotten over my fears. Beyond that,
        if someone is "following" me as I surf the web, well, I cannot for
        the life of me imagine how this information could be exploited
        maliciously. The WWW is in such a constant state of flux that half
        the sites I've visited are probably gone, and the others are pretty
        darned boring!

        A friend of mine used to joke, "Just because you're paranoid doesn't
        mean they're not watching." But seriously, aside from taking the
        standard precautions against identity theft, I pretty much just
        ignore everything else and carry on. If someone wants to know were I
        surf, or what message boards I frequent, well, good luck to them
        trying to figure out how to take advantage of that information.

        --David

        http://jamesriverbranch.net/
        http://1-220.blogspot.com/


        --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Garth Hamilton <garthah@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > It isn't just Yahoo that is doing this and this has been going on
        for
        > years. We get free services from any organization that can find out
        > about our habits and sell that information to others for marketing.
        > If you have a Norton total security package that is all inclusive
        > they will delete these web beacons and tracking cookies from your
        > system as often as your specify or as soon as they appear. If you
        > monitor the output from your computer you can see when your
        computer
        > tries to contact the internet and can block these devices from
        > passing their information. This feature is built into Windows XP
        and
        > Vista remember when you are asked each time something runs if you
        > really want to do this. Many of us get ticked as this and don't pay
        > attention to it and just say yes each time. There are other
        packages
        > that do a similar job some better than others. You can also build a
        > proxy server or subscribe to one of the cloaking services that
        hides
        > your actual IP from all sites you visit.
        >
        > But if you are that worried about such things you would be
        horrified
        > about what information the various credit bureaus hold on you. To
        > avoid tracking you have to start by running totally by cash, no
        > credit, no bank, no credit cards, no postal address, no federal tax
        > account, no doctors office visits, no dentist office visits, no
        > organized work where you receive a pay check no contact with the
        > police, no passport, no drivers license, don't attend school, don't
        > have your birth recorded, live so remote you are not included in a
        > census, don;'t fly, don't ride a train don't have a social
        insurance
        > number etc etc etc
        >
        > Get over it because everything you do in live to interact with
        others
        > leaves a trail that someone can and do record and track. Most of us
        > are totally unaware of all the data collection that goes on about
        us
        > and are horrified when we discover it. From the day you entered
        this
        > world people have been saving data on you. The older you get the
        > bigger the pile of data that is amassed gets.
        >
        > Happy New Year
        > all big brother is still watching
        >
        > Garth
        >
      • Alan Cox
        ... Do you define malicious as charging you different amounts for the same product according to a mathematic model of your income I certainly prefer them to
        Message 3 of 14 , Jan 3, 2009
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          > Second, 99.9% of "tracking" data is not used in a malicious way; it's

          Do you define malicious as "charging you different amounts for
          the same product according to a mathematic model of your income"

          I certainly prefer them to have poor or invalid data so they can't screw
          me.

          > Third, the concept of "big brother" should really only scare people
          > who have something to hide. True, on rare occasion some innocent Joe
          > gets his life turned inside out by mistake, but people stand a much
          > better chance of being killed in a car accident.

          Please cite the statistical data you are using. I don't believe you, and
          if you knew someone with the same name as someone on the US idiot no-fly
          list you'd have different views I think.

          > Fourth, based on observations I've made of some data-keepers,
          > our "secrets" are quite safe because they are in the hands of dimwits
          > who haven't a clue how to manage the data they have--not to mention
          > they have entirely too much data to manage in the first place. Safety
          > in numbers!

          Those are the people who lose copies of all their data and post it
          unencrypted on CD and lose them (like the UK government...)

          > I used to lay awake nights fretting over my charge card number
          > being "out there" for someone to misuse. But, I keep my compter very
          > well protected, and I'm extremely mindful of the sites where I make
          > transactions, and over time I've gotten over my fears. Beyond that,

          (some real statistics for you: more card fraud occurs by phone than
          internet - because the phone ordering involves a human paid minimum wage
          having all your details. Internet retailers go to huge lengths to keep
          card numbers and info from ever being in the hands of an employee.
          Companies that do electronic card handling are also subject to regular
          security audits and a strict security policy from the card companies).

          > if someone is "following" me as I surf the web, well, I cannot for
          > the life of me imagine how this information could be exploited
          > maliciously.

          The advertisers use it to build an exact profile of you to optimise their
          advertising but also in some cases to change the prices you are offered.
          Its the electronic equivalent of the rule about going to buy electronic
          goods or a car looking shabby, and never wearing a suit when you are
          going to haggle.

          Fraudsters and scammers don't generally have access to the same data sets
          (although obviously when there are leaks...). They often work off public
          data however - names of relatives and parents etc

          Find a person who runs a business
          Get the business address
          Look em up on facebook
          Build a map of their relatives
          Find their mothers family if at all possible
          Get the mothers maiden name

          At that point you've typically got enough to scam a bank account or a
          hire purchase (although companies have gotten a lot more careful).

          A recent and even more evil variant of this involves using a cheque to get
          a persons account details, picking up name and address information from
          them (easy if its an order you lifted) then transferring money to the
          persons account. A common bank authentication approach when you phone up
          and forget passwords etc will be

          "Name" blah
          "Date of birth" blah off facebook
          "Mothers maiden name" blah off facebook
          "Can you tell me one of your most recent transactions"
          "Certainly ...." (give details of xfer from another stolen acct
          into this one)

          Some of the scammers are very very clever and there is an ongoing battle
          between the banks, business world and scammers to invent new techniques.

          Alan
        • David K. Smith
          OK, then, I suppose I d better batten down the hatches and be prepared for the worst! Clearly I ve underestimated the hostile nature of the world. --David
          Message 4 of 14 , Jan 3, 2009
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            OK, then, I suppose I'd better batten down the hatches and be
            prepared for the worst! Clearly I've underestimated the hostile
            nature of the world.

            --David

            http://jamesriverbranch.net/
            http://1-220.blogspot.com/

            --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Alan Cox <alan@...> wrote:
            >
            > > Second, 99.9% of "tracking" data is not used in a malicious way;
            it's
            >
            > Do you define malicious as "charging you different amounts for
            > the same product according to a mathematic model of your income"
            >
            > I certainly prefer them to have poor or invalid data so they can't
            screw
            > me.
            >
            > > Third, the concept of "big brother" should really only scare
            people
            > > who have something to hide. True, on rare occasion some innocent
            Joe
            > > gets his life turned inside out by mistake, but people stand a
            much
            > > better chance of being killed in a car accident.
            >
            > Please cite the statistical data you are using. I don't believe
            you, and
            > if you knew someone with the same name as someone on the US idiot
            no-fly
            > list you'd have different views I think.
            >
            > > Fourth, based on observations I've made of some data-keepers,
            > > our "secrets" are quite safe because they are in the hands of
            dimwits
            > > who haven't a clue how to manage the data they have--not to
            mention
            > > they have entirely too much data to manage in the first place.
            Safety
            > > in numbers!
            >
            > Those are the people who lose copies of all their data and post it
            > unencrypted on CD and lose them (like the UK government...)
            >
            > > I used to lay awake nights fretting over my charge card number
            > > being "out there" for someone to misuse. But, I keep my compter
            very
            > > well protected, and I'm extremely mindful of the sites where I
            make
            > > transactions, and over time I've gotten over my fears. Beyond
            that,
            >
            > (some real statistics for you: more card fraud occurs by phone than
            > internet - because the phone ordering involves a human paid minimum
            wage
            > having all your details. Internet retailers go to huge lengths to
            keep
            > card numbers and info from ever being in the hands of an employee.
            > Companies that do electronic card handling are also subject to
            regular
            > security audits and a strict security policy from the card
            companies).
            >
            > > if someone is "following" me as I surf the web, well, I cannot
            for
            > > the life of me imagine how this information could be exploited
            > > maliciously.
            >
            > The advertisers use it to build an exact profile of you to optimise
            their
            > advertising but also in some cases to change the prices you are
            offered.
            > Its the electronic equivalent of the rule about going to buy
            electronic
            > goods or a car looking shabby, and never wearing a suit when you are
            > going to haggle.
            >
            > Fraudsters and scammers don't generally have access to the same
            data sets
            > (although obviously when there are leaks...). They often work off
            public
            > data however - names of relatives and parents etc
            >
            > Find a person who runs a business
            > Get the business address
            > Look em up on facebook
            > Build a map of their relatives
            > Find their mothers family if at all possible
            > Get the mothers maiden name
            >
            > At that point you've typically got enough to scam a bank account or
            a
            > hire purchase (although companies have gotten a lot more careful).
            >
            > A recent and even more evil variant of this involves using a cheque
            to get
            > a persons account details, picking up name and address information
            from
            > them (easy if its an order you lifted) then transferring money to
            the
            > persons account. A common bank authentication approach when you
            phone up
            > and forget passwords etc will be
            >
            > "Name" blah
            > "Date of birth" blah off facebook
            > "Mothers maiden name" blah off facebook
            > "Can you tell me one of your most recent transactions"
            > "Certainly ...." (give details of xfer from another stolen
            acct
            > into this one)
            >
            > Some of the scammers are very very clever and there is an ongoing
            battle
            > between the banks, business world and scammers to invent new
            techniques.
            >
            > Alan
            >
          • Larry Card
            ... I would prefer not to have the police search through my underwear drawer without a warrant, not because I have something to hide but simply because it s
            Message 5 of 14 , Jan 3, 2009
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              > Third, the concept of "big brother" should really only scare people
              > who have something to hide.

              I would prefer not to have the police search through my underwear drawer without a warrant, not because I have something to hide but simply because it's none of their business what's in there. Likewise, the concept of big brother keeping an eye on me "just because" bothers me, not because I have something to hide but because it's none of their damn business what I'm doing or how I'm spending my time, as long as I am not bringing physical or financial harm to anyone through force or fraud.

              It also bothers me that not more people are bothered by that.

              > Fourth, based on observations I've made of some data-keepers,
              > our "secrets" are quite safe because they are in the hands of dimwits
              > who haven't a clue how to manage the data they have--not to mention
              > they have entirely too much data to manage in the first place. Safety
              > in numbers!

              Which is why you have those very same dimwits putting your personal information on laptops, which they then take home, which are then stolen out of their cars, and then your personal information belongs to some hacker or ID thief. I wouldn't call that exactly safe, and it's another good reason to be bothered by "big brother" watching you. FWIW, my personal information has had the opportunity to be lost in exactly that way, once through the US Navy and once through the VA, within a 3 year span.

              > if someone is "following" me as I surf the web, well, I cannot for
              > the life of me imagine how this information could be exploited
              > maliciously.

              But those who would exploit you maliciously have all sorts of ideas, and a very good imagination. Ten years ago we couldn't fathom the World Trade Center towers 1 and 2 being taken down by jet airliners...but someone else could. We couldn't imagine what someone would do with our information because we wouldn't be so inclined to be malicious with someone else's information. Others aren't so magnanamous.

              > surf, or what message boards I frequent, well, good luck to them
              > trying to figure out how to take advantage of that information.

              Luck has nothing to do with it.

              V/R
              Larry P. Card
              Franklinton NC

              _________________________________________________________________
              Life on your PC is safer, easier, and more enjoyable with Windows Vista®.
              http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/127032870/direct/01/

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Larry Card
              ... And sometimes even that doesn t work... V/R Larry P. Card Franklinton NC _________________________________________________________________ Life on your PC
              Message 6 of 14 , Jan 3, 2009
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                > Now days you have to be dead to be forgotten.........nice combo eh?

                And sometimes even that doesn't work...
                V/R
                Larry P. Card
                Franklinton NC

                _________________________________________________________________
                Life on your PC is safer, easier, and more enjoyable with Windows Vista®.
                http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/127032870/direct/01/

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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