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Re: [Z_Scale] Re: Yahoo is Tracking Group Members

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  • Alan Cox
    ... Makes no difference. All the big advertising providers track by IP address so they can to a good extent see exactly what pages are requested and since they
    Message 1 of 14 , Jan 1, 2009
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      > Thanks for that. It's not so much that I object to targeted ads - I
      > ignore them all anyway - but just the thought that they are stealing
      > part of my identity. Still, I suppose they have to make a profit
      > somehow. Anyway, I have opted out, but hwo can I guarantee that they
      > are still not tracking my movements. Maybe I should get one of those
      > privacy programs.

      Makes no difference. All the big advertising providers track by IP
      address so they can to a good extent see exactly what pages are requested
      and since they can partner with anyone you buy a product from they can
      tie credit card number and other identity to the advertising sequence.

      There are things you can do to an extent - refuse almost all cookies and
      also get one of the firefox advertising blockers so your machine doesn't
      even request the advertising images. The moment your PC requests them the
      advertisers know your every move. Yahoo are actually relatively good
      citizens - they have an opt out and admit to what they do, most
      advertising is from organisations with no visible public face you don't
      even know exist.

      Its also good for performance - without your internet connection
      being clogged downloading advertising images the net is so much faster.

      Alan
    • David Epling
      Ellsworth, This is new news for you and probably a lot of others, but yahoo has had this in place since they took over egroups over 10 years ago. ... From:
      Message 2 of 14 , Jan 1, 2009
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        Ellsworth, This is new news for you and probably a lot of others, but yahoo
        has had this in place since they took over egroups over 10 years ago.


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Ellsworth Geib" <geib@...>
        To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 9:31 AM
        Subject: [Z_Scale] Yahoo is Tracking Group Members


        I received the following message from the Potomac Division of the NMRA.

        "Yahoo is Tracking Group Members

        Yahoo is now using "Web Beacons" to track every Yahoo Group user. It's
        similar to cookies,
        but allows Yahoo to record every website and every group you visit, even
        when you're not
        connected to Yahoo. Look at their updated privacy statement at

        http://info. yahoo.com/ privacy/us/ yahoo/details. html

        About half-way down the page, in the section on cookies, you will see a link
        that says
        WEB BEACONS.

        Click on the phrase "Web Beacons." On the page that opens, on the left find
        a box entitled
        "Opt-Out."

        In that section find "opt-out of interest-matched advertising" link that
        will let you "opt-
        out" of their snooping. Click it and then click the opt-out button on the
        next page.

        Note that Yahoo's invasion of your privacy - and your ability to opt-out of
        it - is not user-
        specific. It is MACHINE specific. That means you will have to opt-out on
        every computer
        (and browser) you use."


        It's getting a little scary what Yahoo and others can do behind our backs.

        Ell Geib


        ------------------------------------

        Z-scale: minimum siZe, MAXIMUM enjoyment!
        Yahoo! Groups Links
      • Don A
        What is the differenec of Yahoo shadowing you wherever you go vs General Motors shadowing Ralph Nader after he wrote his book Unsafe at any Speed . Didn t GM
        Message 3 of 14 , Jan 1, 2009
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          What is the differenec of Yahoo shadowing you wherever you go vs
          General Motors shadowing Ralph Nader after he wrote his book "Unsafe
          at any Speed". Didn't GM have to pay some very big dollars to settle
          the case??

          ...don


          --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "David Epling" <cct24@...> wrote:
          >
          > Ellsworth, This is new news for you and probably a lot of others,
          but yahoo
          > has had this in place since they took over egroups over 10 years ago.
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "Ellsworth Geib" <geib@...>
          > To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 9:31 AM
          > Subject: [Z_Scale] Yahoo is Tracking Group Members
          >
          >
          > I received the following message from the Potomac Division of the NMRA.
          >
          > "Yahoo is Tracking Group Members
          >
          > Yahoo is now using "Web Beacons" to track every Yahoo Group user. It's
          > similar to cookies,
          > but allows Yahoo to record every website and every group you visit,
          even
          > when you're not
          > connected to Yahoo. Look at their updated privacy statement at
          >
          > http://info. yahoo.com/ privacy/us/ yahoo/details. html
          >
          > About half-way down the page, in the section on cookies, you will
          see a link
          > that says
          > WEB BEACONS.
          >
          > Click on the phrase "Web Beacons." On the page that opens, on the
          left find
          > a box entitled
          > "Opt-Out."
          >
          > In that section find "opt-out of interest-matched advertising" link
          that
          > will let you "opt-
          > out" of their snooping. Click it and then click the opt-out button
          on the
          > next page.
          >
          > Note that Yahoo's invasion of your privacy - and your ability to
          opt-out of
          > it - is not user-
          > specific. It is MACHINE specific. That means you will have to
          opt-out on
          > every computer
          > (and browser) you use."
          >
          >
          > It's getting a little scary what Yahoo and others can do behind our
          backs.
          >
          > Ell Geib
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Z-scale: minimum siZe, MAXIMUM enjoyment!
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
        • Garth Hamilton
          It isn t just Yahoo that is doing this and this has been going on for years. We get free services from any organization that can find out about our habits and
          Message 4 of 14 , Jan 2, 2009
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            It isn't just Yahoo that is doing this and this has been going on for
            years. We get free services from any organization that can find out
            about our habits and sell that information to others for marketing.
            If you have a Norton total security package that is all inclusive
            they will delete these web beacons and tracking cookies from your
            system as often as your specify or as soon as they appear. If you
            monitor the output from your computer you can see when your computer
            tries to contact the internet and can block these devices from
            passing their information. This feature is built into Windows XP and
            Vista remember when you are asked each time something runs if you
            really want to do this. Many of us get ticked as this and don't pay
            attention to it and just say yes each time. There are other packages
            that do a similar job some better than others. You can also build a
            proxy server or subscribe to one of the cloaking services that hides
            your actual IP from all sites you visit.

            But if you are that worried about such things you would be horrified
            about what information the various credit bureaus hold on you. To
            avoid tracking you have to start by running totally by cash, no
            credit, no bank, no credit cards, no postal address, no federal tax
            account, no doctors office visits, no dentist office visits, no
            organized work where you receive a pay check no contact with the
            police, no passport, no drivers license, don't attend school, don't
            have your birth recorded, live so remote you are not included in a
            census, don;'t fly, don't ride a train don't have a social insurance
            number etc etc etc

            Get over it because everything you do in live to interact with others
            leaves a trail that someone can and do record and track. Most of us
            are totally unaware of all the data collection that goes on about us
            and are horrified when we discover it. From the day you entered this
            world people have been saving data on you. The older you get the
            bigger the pile of data that is amassed gets.

            Happy New Year
            all big brother is still watching

            Garth

            At 08:05 AM 1/2/2009, "Ellsworth Geib" geib@... you wrote:
            >I received the following message from the Potomac Division of the NMRA.
            >
            >"Yahoo is Tracking Group Members
            >
            >Yahoo is now using "Web Beacons" to track every Yahoo Group user.
            >It's similar to cookies,
            >but allows Yahoo to record every website and every group you visit,
            >even when you're not
            >connected to Yahoo. Look at their updated privacy statement at
            >
            >http://info. yahoo.com/ privacy/us/ yahoo/details. html
            >
            >About half-way down the page, in the section on cookies, you will
            >see a link that says
            >WEB BEACONS.
            >
            >Click on the phrase "Web Beacons." On the page that opens, on the
            >left find a box entitled
            >"Opt-Out."
            >
            >In that section find "opt-out of interest-matched advertising" link
            >that will let you "opt-
            >out" of their snooping. Click it and then click the opt-out button
            >on the next page.
            >
            >Note that Yahoo's invasion of your privacy - and your ability to
            >opt-out of it - is not user-
            >specific. It is MACHINE specific. That means you will have to
            >opt-out on every computer
            >(and browser) you use."
            >
            >
            >It's getting a little scary what Yahoo and others can do behind our backs.
            >
            >Ell Geib
          • Don A
            I think it is quite a bit different to collect EXISTING data as opposed to following/shadowing/stalking you. I ll bet some attorney whose practice is down
            Message 5 of 14 , Jan 2, 2009
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              I think it is quite a bit different to collect EXISTING data as
              opposed to following/shadowing/stalking you. I'll bet some attorney
              whose practice is down could have a field day with this. Yahoo must
              feel there is something special and not be too sure of themselves if
              they allow an "opt-out". On existing data, I no of no way that you
              can "opt-out" of someone collecting it. BTW Ralphie Nader appears to
              have collected about $450,000 in 1970 dollars or about $2,000,000 in
              2009 dollars.

              ...don


              --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Garth Hamilton <garthah@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > It isn't just Yahoo that is doing this and this has been going on for
              > years. We get free services from any organization that can find out
              > about our habits and sell that information to others for marketing.
              > If you have a Norton total security package that is all inclusive
              > they will delete these web beacons and tracking cookies from your
              > system as often as your specify or as soon as they appear. If you
              > monitor the output from your computer you can see when your computer
              > tries to contact the internet and can block these devices from
              > passing their information. This feature is built into Windows XP and
              > Vista remember when you are asked each time something runs if you
              > really want to do this. Many of us get ticked as this and don't pay
              > attention to it and just say yes each time. There are other packages
              > that do a similar job some better than others. You can also build a
              > proxy server or subscribe to one of the cloaking services that hides
              > your actual IP from all sites you visit.
              >
              > But if you are that worried about such things you would be horrified
              > about what information the various credit bureaus hold on you. To
              > avoid tracking you have to start by running totally by cash, no
              > credit, no bank, no credit cards, no postal address, no federal tax
              > account, no doctors office visits, no dentist office visits, no
              > organized work where you receive a pay check no contact with the
              > police, no passport, no drivers license, don't attend school, don't
              > have your birth recorded, live so remote you are not included in a
              > census, don;'t fly, don't ride a train don't have a social insurance
              > number etc etc etc
              >
              > Get over it because everything you do in live to interact with others
              > leaves a trail that someone can and do record and track. Most of us
              > are totally unaware of all the data collection that goes on about us
              > and are horrified when we discover it. From the day you entered this
              > world people have been saving data on you. The older you get the
              > bigger the pile of data that is amassed gets.
              >
              > Happy New Year
              > all big brother is still watching
              >
              > Garth
              >
              > At 08:05 AM 1/2/2009, "Ellsworth Geib" geib@... you wrote:
              > >I received the following message from the Potomac Division of the NMRA.
              > >
              > >"Yahoo is Tracking Group Members
              > >
              > >Yahoo is now using "Web Beacons" to track every Yahoo Group user.
              > >It's similar to cookies,
              > >but allows Yahoo to record every website and every group you visit,
              > >even when you're not
              > >connected to Yahoo. Look at their updated privacy statement at
              > >
              > >http://info. yahoo.com/ privacy/us/ yahoo/details. html
              > >
              > >About half-way down the page, in the section on cookies, you will
              > >see a link that says
              > >WEB BEACONS.
              > >
              > >Click on the phrase "Web Beacons." On the page that opens, on the
              > >left find a box entitled
              > >"Opt-Out."
              > >
              > >In that section find "opt-out of interest-matched advertising" link
              > >that will let you "opt-
              > >out" of their snooping. Click it and then click the opt-out button
              > >on the next page.
              > >
              > >Note that Yahoo's invasion of your privacy - and your ability to
              > >opt-out of it - is not user-
              > >specific. It is MACHINE specific. That means you will have to
              > >opt-out on every computer
              > >(and browser) you use."
              > >
              > >
              > >It's getting a little scary what Yahoo and others can do behind our
              backs.
              > >
              > >Ell Geib
              >
            • Loren
              Garth, Now days you have to be dead to be forgotten.........nice combo eh? Loren ... From: Garth Hamilton To:
              Message 6 of 14 , Jan 2, 2009
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                Garth,
                Now days you have to be dead to be forgotten.........nice combo eh?
                Loren

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Garth Hamilton" <garthah@...>
                To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 6:16 AM
                Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Yahoo is Tracking Group Members


                > But if you are that worried about such things you would be horrified
                > about what information the various credit bureaus hold on you. To
                > avoid tracking you have to start by running totally by cash, no
                > credit, no bank, no credit cards, no postal address, no federal tax
                > account, no doctors office visits, no dentist office visits, no
                > organized work where you receive a pay check no contact with the
                > police, no passport, no drivers license, don't attend school, don't
                > have your birth recorded, live so remote you are not included in a
                > census, don;'t fly, don't ride a train don't have a social insurance
                > number etc etc etc

                > Happy New Year
                > all big brother is still watching
                >
                > Garth
              • Ellsworth Geib
                Garth, I ve been around way too long not to fully understand most of what you say. I sent my first e-mail via Arpanet, for example, the precursor to the
                Message 7 of 14 , Jan 3, 2009
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                  Garth,

                  I've been around way too long not to fully understand most of what you say. I sent my first
                  e-mail via Arpanet, for example, the precursor to the internet. And everything we did
                  electronically where I worked (Defense Dept.) was recorded and stored for eternity. It's
                  long been a problem that when something gets into "the computer", it is treated as sacred
                  fact, whether it was a mistake or not. However, as "Don A" says, the idea of
                  "following/shadowing/stalking you" with these Web Beacons was new to me. After my
                  post, I learned of and visited

                  http://networkadvertising.org/managing/opt_out.asp

                  where I found several things beyond Yahoo that have me in their clutches, and I can't
                  determine who or what they are. I despise the practice of having to Opt-Out rather than
                  Opt-In. But I really, really dislike the idea that I am "In" and unaware of it.

                  I'll have to see what is available for the Mac to help reduce some of this Big Brother stuff.

                  Ell


                  --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Garth Hamilton <garthah@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > It isn't just Yahoo that is doing this and this has been going on for
                  > years. We get free services from any organization that can find out
                  > about our habits and sell that information to others for marketing.
                  > If you have a Norton total security package that is all inclusive
                  > they will delete these web beacons and tracking cookies from your
                  > system as often as your specify or as soon as they appear. If you
                  > monitor the output from your computer you can see when your computer
                  > tries to contact the internet and can block these devices from
                  > passing their information. This feature is built into Windows XP and
                  > Vista remember when you are asked each time something runs if you
                  > really want to do this. Many of us get ticked as this and don't pay
                  > attention to it and just say yes each time. There are other packages
                  > that do a similar job some better than others. You can also build a
                  > proxy server or subscribe to one of the cloaking services that hides
                  > your actual IP from all sites you visit.
                  >
                  > But if you are that worried about such things you would be horrified
                  > about what information the various credit bureaus hold on you. To
                  > avoid tracking you have to start by running totally by cash, no
                  > credit, no bank, no credit cards, no postal address, no federal tax
                  > account, no doctors office visits, no dentist office visits, no
                  > organized work where you receive a pay check no contact with the
                  > police, no passport, no drivers license, don't attend school, don't
                  > have your birth recorded, live so remote you are not included in a
                  > census, don;'t fly, don't ride a train don't have a social insurance
                  > number etc etc etc
                  >
                  > Get over it because everything you do in live to interact with others
                  > leaves a trail that someone can and do record and track. Most of us
                  > are totally unaware of all the data collection that goes on about us
                  > and are horrified when we discover it. From the day you entered this
                  > world people have been saving data on you. The older you get the
                  > bigger the pile of data that is amassed gets.
                  >
                  > Happy New Year
                  > all big brother is still watching
                  >
                  > Garth
                  >
                  > At 08:05 AM 1/2/2009, "Ellsworth Geib" geib@... you wrote:
                  > >I received the following message from the Potomac Division of the NMRA.
                  > >
                  > >"Yahoo is Tracking Group Members
                  > >
                  > >Yahoo is now using "Web Beacons" to track every Yahoo Group user.
                  > >It's similar to cookies,
                  > >but allows Yahoo to record every website and every group you visit,
                  > >even when you're not
                  > >connected to Yahoo. Look at their updated privacy statement at
                  > >
                  > >http://info. yahoo.com/ privacy/us/ yahoo/details. html
                  > >
                  > >About half-way down the page, in the section on cookies, you will
                  > >see a link that says
                  > >WEB BEACONS.
                  > >
                  > >Click on the phrase "Web Beacons." On the page that opens, on the
                  > >left find a box entitled
                  > >"Opt-Out."
                  > >
                  > >In that section find "opt-out of interest-matched advertising" link
                  > >that will let you "opt-
                  > >out" of their snooping. Click it and then click the opt-out button
                  > >on the next page.
                  > >
                  > >Note that Yahoo's invasion of your privacy - and your ability to
                  > >opt-out of it - is not user-
                  > >specific. It is MACHINE specific. That means you will have to
                  > >opt-out on every computer
                  > >(and browser) you use."
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >It's getting a little scary what Yahoo and others can do behind our backs.
                  > >
                  > >Ell Geib
                  >
                • David K. Smith
                  Garth-- All quite true. There are tons of data on each of us. However, for those who are upset by this, bear a few things in mind. First, unless we revert back
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jan 3, 2009
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                    Garth--

                    All quite true. There are tons of data on each of us. However, for
                    those who are upset by this, bear a few things in mind.

                    First, unless we revert back to keeping our greebacks under the
                    mattress, modern life requires quite a bit of personal data to be
                    stored and used.

                    Second, 99.9% of "tracking" data is not used in a malicious way; it's
                    the folks who don't have their compuers protected who should be
                    worrying--they unwittingly help drive the data black market with
                    their "zombie" computers acting as accomplices for the evildoers.
                    It's unsettling to think that most spam and data theft schemes
                    are "powered" by innocent people who just don't have a clue about
                    their own computers, and leave them running unprotected 24/7.

                    Third, the concept of "big brother" should really only scare people
                    who have something to hide. True, on rare occasion some innocent Joe
                    gets his life turned inside out by mistake, but people stand a much
                    better chance of being killed in a car accident.

                    Fourth, based on observations I've made of some data-keepers,
                    our "secrets" are quite safe because they are in the hands of dimwits
                    who haven't a clue how to manage the data they have--not to mention
                    they have entirely too much data to manage in the first place. Safety
                    in numbers!

                    I used to lay awake nights fretting over my charge card number
                    being "out there" for someone to misuse. But, I keep my compter very
                    well protected, and I'm extremely mindful of the sites where I make
                    transactions, and over time I've gotten over my fears. Beyond that,
                    if someone is "following" me as I surf the web, well, I cannot for
                    the life of me imagine how this information could be exploited
                    maliciously. The WWW is in such a constant state of flux that half
                    the sites I've visited are probably gone, and the others are pretty
                    darned boring!

                    A friend of mine used to joke, "Just because you're paranoid doesn't
                    mean they're not watching." But seriously, aside from taking the
                    standard precautions against identity theft, I pretty much just
                    ignore everything else and carry on. If someone wants to know were I
                    surf, or what message boards I frequent, well, good luck to them
                    trying to figure out how to take advantage of that information.

                    --David

                    http://jamesriverbranch.net/
                    http://1-220.blogspot.com/


                    --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Garth Hamilton <garthah@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > It isn't just Yahoo that is doing this and this has been going on
                    for
                    > years. We get free services from any organization that can find out
                    > about our habits and sell that information to others for marketing.
                    > If you have a Norton total security package that is all inclusive
                    > they will delete these web beacons and tracking cookies from your
                    > system as often as your specify or as soon as they appear. If you
                    > monitor the output from your computer you can see when your
                    computer
                    > tries to contact the internet and can block these devices from
                    > passing their information. This feature is built into Windows XP
                    and
                    > Vista remember when you are asked each time something runs if you
                    > really want to do this. Many of us get ticked as this and don't pay
                    > attention to it and just say yes each time. There are other
                    packages
                    > that do a similar job some better than others. You can also build a
                    > proxy server or subscribe to one of the cloaking services that
                    hides
                    > your actual IP from all sites you visit.
                    >
                    > But if you are that worried about such things you would be
                    horrified
                    > about what information the various credit bureaus hold on you. To
                    > avoid tracking you have to start by running totally by cash, no
                    > credit, no bank, no credit cards, no postal address, no federal tax
                    > account, no doctors office visits, no dentist office visits, no
                    > organized work where you receive a pay check no contact with the
                    > police, no passport, no drivers license, don't attend school, don't
                    > have your birth recorded, live so remote you are not included in a
                    > census, don;'t fly, don't ride a train don't have a social
                    insurance
                    > number etc etc etc
                    >
                    > Get over it because everything you do in live to interact with
                    others
                    > leaves a trail that someone can and do record and track. Most of us
                    > are totally unaware of all the data collection that goes on about
                    us
                    > and are horrified when we discover it. From the day you entered
                    this
                    > world people have been saving data on you. The older you get the
                    > bigger the pile of data that is amassed gets.
                    >
                    > Happy New Year
                    > all big brother is still watching
                    >
                    > Garth
                    >
                  • Alan Cox
                    ... Do you define malicious as charging you different amounts for the same product according to a mathematic model of your income I certainly prefer them to
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jan 3, 2009
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                      > Second, 99.9% of "tracking" data is not used in a malicious way; it's

                      Do you define malicious as "charging you different amounts for
                      the same product according to a mathematic model of your income"

                      I certainly prefer them to have poor or invalid data so they can't screw
                      me.

                      > Third, the concept of "big brother" should really only scare people
                      > who have something to hide. True, on rare occasion some innocent Joe
                      > gets his life turned inside out by mistake, but people stand a much
                      > better chance of being killed in a car accident.

                      Please cite the statistical data you are using. I don't believe you, and
                      if you knew someone with the same name as someone on the US idiot no-fly
                      list you'd have different views I think.

                      > Fourth, based on observations I've made of some data-keepers,
                      > our "secrets" are quite safe because they are in the hands of dimwits
                      > who haven't a clue how to manage the data they have--not to mention
                      > they have entirely too much data to manage in the first place. Safety
                      > in numbers!

                      Those are the people who lose copies of all their data and post it
                      unencrypted on CD and lose them (like the UK government...)

                      > I used to lay awake nights fretting over my charge card number
                      > being "out there" for someone to misuse. But, I keep my compter very
                      > well protected, and I'm extremely mindful of the sites where I make
                      > transactions, and over time I've gotten over my fears. Beyond that,

                      (some real statistics for you: more card fraud occurs by phone than
                      internet - because the phone ordering involves a human paid minimum wage
                      having all your details. Internet retailers go to huge lengths to keep
                      card numbers and info from ever being in the hands of an employee.
                      Companies that do electronic card handling are also subject to regular
                      security audits and a strict security policy from the card companies).

                      > if someone is "following" me as I surf the web, well, I cannot for
                      > the life of me imagine how this information could be exploited
                      > maliciously.

                      The advertisers use it to build an exact profile of you to optimise their
                      advertising but also in some cases to change the prices you are offered.
                      Its the electronic equivalent of the rule about going to buy electronic
                      goods or a car looking shabby, and never wearing a suit when you are
                      going to haggle.

                      Fraudsters and scammers don't generally have access to the same data sets
                      (although obviously when there are leaks...). They often work off public
                      data however - names of relatives and parents etc

                      Find a person who runs a business
                      Get the business address
                      Look em up on facebook
                      Build a map of their relatives
                      Find their mothers family if at all possible
                      Get the mothers maiden name

                      At that point you've typically got enough to scam a bank account or a
                      hire purchase (although companies have gotten a lot more careful).

                      A recent and even more evil variant of this involves using a cheque to get
                      a persons account details, picking up name and address information from
                      them (easy if its an order you lifted) then transferring money to the
                      persons account. A common bank authentication approach when you phone up
                      and forget passwords etc will be

                      "Name" blah
                      "Date of birth" blah off facebook
                      "Mothers maiden name" blah off facebook
                      "Can you tell me one of your most recent transactions"
                      "Certainly ...." (give details of xfer from another stolen acct
                      into this one)

                      Some of the scammers are very very clever and there is an ongoing battle
                      between the banks, business world and scammers to invent new techniques.

                      Alan
                    • David K. Smith
                      OK, then, I suppose I d better batten down the hatches and be prepared for the worst! Clearly I ve underestimated the hostile nature of the world. --David
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jan 3, 2009
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                        OK, then, I suppose I'd better batten down the hatches and be
                        prepared for the worst! Clearly I've underestimated the hostile
                        nature of the world.

                        --David

                        http://jamesriverbranch.net/
                        http://1-220.blogspot.com/

                        --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Alan Cox <alan@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > Second, 99.9% of "tracking" data is not used in a malicious way;
                        it's
                        >
                        > Do you define malicious as "charging you different amounts for
                        > the same product according to a mathematic model of your income"
                        >
                        > I certainly prefer them to have poor or invalid data so they can't
                        screw
                        > me.
                        >
                        > > Third, the concept of "big brother" should really only scare
                        people
                        > > who have something to hide. True, on rare occasion some innocent
                        Joe
                        > > gets his life turned inside out by mistake, but people stand a
                        much
                        > > better chance of being killed in a car accident.
                        >
                        > Please cite the statistical data you are using. I don't believe
                        you, and
                        > if you knew someone with the same name as someone on the US idiot
                        no-fly
                        > list you'd have different views I think.
                        >
                        > > Fourth, based on observations I've made of some data-keepers,
                        > > our "secrets" are quite safe because they are in the hands of
                        dimwits
                        > > who haven't a clue how to manage the data they have--not to
                        mention
                        > > they have entirely too much data to manage in the first place.
                        Safety
                        > > in numbers!
                        >
                        > Those are the people who lose copies of all their data and post it
                        > unencrypted on CD and lose them (like the UK government...)
                        >
                        > > I used to lay awake nights fretting over my charge card number
                        > > being "out there" for someone to misuse. But, I keep my compter
                        very
                        > > well protected, and I'm extremely mindful of the sites where I
                        make
                        > > transactions, and over time I've gotten over my fears. Beyond
                        that,
                        >
                        > (some real statistics for you: more card fraud occurs by phone than
                        > internet - because the phone ordering involves a human paid minimum
                        wage
                        > having all your details. Internet retailers go to huge lengths to
                        keep
                        > card numbers and info from ever being in the hands of an employee.
                        > Companies that do electronic card handling are also subject to
                        regular
                        > security audits and a strict security policy from the card
                        companies).
                        >
                        > > if someone is "following" me as I surf the web, well, I cannot
                        for
                        > > the life of me imagine how this information could be exploited
                        > > maliciously.
                        >
                        > The advertisers use it to build an exact profile of you to optimise
                        their
                        > advertising but also in some cases to change the prices you are
                        offered.
                        > Its the electronic equivalent of the rule about going to buy
                        electronic
                        > goods or a car looking shabby, and never wearing a suit when you are
                        > going to haggle.
                        >
                        > Fraudsters and scammers don't generally have access to the same
                        data sets
                        > (although obviously when there are leaks...). They often work off
                        public
                        > data however - names of relatives and parents etc
                        >
                        > Find a person who runs a business
                        > Get the business address
                        > Look em up on facebook
                        > Build a map of their relatives
                        > Find their mothers family if at all possible
                        > Get the mothers maiden name
                        >
                        > At that point you've typically got enough to scam a bank account or
                        a
                        > hire purchase (although companies have gotten a lot more careful).
                        >
                        > A recent and even more evil variant of this involves using a cheque
                        to get
                        > a persons account details, picking up name and address information
                        from
                        > them (easy if its an order you lifted) then transferring money to
                        the
                        > persons account. A common bank authentication approach when you
                        phone up
                        > and forget passwords etc will be
                        >
                        > "Name" blah
                        > "Date of birth" blah off facebook
                        > "Mothers maiden name" blah off facebook
                        > "Can you tell me one of your most recent transactions"
                        > "Certainly ...." (give details of xfer from another stolen
                        acct
                        > into this one)
                        >
                        > Some of the scammers are very very clever and there is an ongoing
                        battle
                        > between the banks, business world and scammers to invent new
                        techniques.
                        >
                        > Alan
                        >
                      • Larry Card
                        ... I would prefer not to have the police search through my underwear drawer without a warrant, not because I have something to hide but simply because it s
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jan 3, 2009
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                          > Third, the concept of "big brother" should really only scare people
                          > who have something to hide.

                          I would prefer not to have the police search through my underwear drawer without a warrant, not because I have something to hide but simply because it's none of their business what's in there. Likewise, the concept of big brother keeping an eye on me "just because" bothers me, not because I have something to hide but because it's none of their damn business what I'm doing or how I'm spending my time, as long as I am not bringing physical or financial harm to anyone through force or fraud.

                          It also bothers me that not more people are bothered by that.

                          > Fourth, based on observations I've made of some data-keepers,
                          > our "secrets" are quite safe because they are in the hands of dimwits
                          > who haven't a clue how to manage the data they have--not to mention
                          > they have entirely too much data to manage in the first place. Safety
                          > in numbers!

                          Which is why you have those very same dimwits putting your personal information on laptops, which they then take home, which are then stolen out of their cars, and then your personal information belongs to some hacker or ID thief. I wouldn't call that exactly safe, and it's another good reason to be bothered by "big brother" watching you. FWIW, my personal information has had the opportunity to be lost in exactly that way, once through the US Navy and once through the VA, within a 3 year span.

                          > if someone is "following" me as I surf the web, well, I cannot for
                          > the life of me imagine how this information could be exploited
                          > maliciously.

                          But those who would exploit you maliciously have all sorts of ideas, and a very good imagination. Ten years ago we couldn't fathom the World Trade Center towers 1 and 2 being taken down by jet airliners...but someone else could. We couldn't imagine what someone would do with our information because we wouldn't be so inclined to be malicious with someone else's information. Others aren't so magnanamous.

                          > surf, or what message boards I frequent, well, good luck to them
                          > trying to figure out how to take advantage of that information.

                          Luck has nothing to do with it.

                          V/R
                          Larry P. Card
                          Franklinton NC

                          _________________________________________________________________
                          Life on your PC is safer, easier, and more enjoyable with Windows Vista®.
                          http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/127032870/direct/01/

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Larry Card
                          ... And sometimes even that doesn t work... V/R Larry P. Card Franklinton NC _________________________________________________________________ Life on your PC
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jan 3, 2009
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                            > Now days you have to be dead to be forgotten.........nice combo eh?

                            And sometimes even that doesn't work...
                            V/R
                            Larry P. Card
                            Franklinton NC

                            _________________________________________________________________
                            Life on your PC is safer, easier, and more enjoyable with Windows Vista®.
                            http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/127032870/direct/01/

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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