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Yahoo is Tracking Group Members

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  • Ellsworth Geib
    I received the following message from the Potomac Division of the NMRA. Yahoo is Tracking Group Members Yahoo is now using Web Beacons to track every Yahoo
    Message 1 of 14 , Jan 1, 2009
      I received the following message from the Potomac Division of the NMRA.

      "Yahoo is Tracking Group Members

      Yahoo is now using "Web Beacons" to track every Yahoo Group user. It's similar to cookies,
      but allows Yahoo to record every website and every group you visit, even when you're not
      connected to Yahoo. Look at their updated privacy statement at

      http://info. yahoo.com/ privacy/us/ yahoo/details. html

      About half-way down the page, in the section on cookies, you will see a link that says
      WEB BEACONS.

      Click on the phrase "Web Beacons." On the page that opens, on the left find a box entitled
      "Opt-Out."

      In that section find "opt-out of interest-matched advertising" link that will let you "opt-
      out" of their snooping. Click it and then click the opt-out button on the next page.

      Note that Yahoo's invasion of your privacy - and your ability to opt-out of it - is not user-
      specific. It is MACHINE specific. That means you will have to opt-out on every computer
      (and browser) you use."


      It's getting a little scary what Yahoo and others can do behind our backs.

      Ell Geib
    • skye.chris
      ... Thanks for that. It s not so much that I object to targeted ads - I ignore them all anyway - but just the thought that they are stealing part of my
      Message 2 of 14 , Jan 1, 2009
        --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Ellsworth Geib" <geib@...> wrote:
        > I received the following message from the Potomac Division of the NMRA.
        >
        > "Yahoo is Tracking Group Members

        Thanks for that. It's not so much that I object to targeted ads - I
        ignore them all anyway - but just the thought that they are stealing
        part of my identity. Still, I suppose they have to make a profit
        somehow. Anyway, I have opted out, but hwo can I guarantee that they
        are still not tracking my movements. Maybe I should get one of those
        privacy programs.

        Best,
        Chris.
      • Alan Cox
        ... Makes no difference. All the big advertising providers track by IP address so they can to a good extent see exactly what pages are requested and since they
        Message 3 of 14 , Jan 1, 2009
          > Thanks for that. It's not so much that I object to targeted ads - I
          > ignore them all anyway - but just the thought that they are stealing
          > part of my identity. Still, I suppose they have to make a profit
          > somehow. Anyway, I have opted out, but hwo can I guarantee that they
          > are still not tracking my movements. Maybe I should get one of those
          > privacy programs.

          Makes no difference. All the big advertising providers track by IP
          address so they can to a good extent see exactly what pages are requested
          and since they can partner with anyone you buy a product from they can
          tie credit card number and other identity to the advertising sequence.

          There are things you can do to an extent - refuse almost all cookies and
          also get one of the firefox advertising blockers so your machine doesn't
          even request the advertising images. The moment your PC requests them the
          advertisers know your every move. Yahoo are actually relatively good
          citizens - they have an opt out and admit to what they do, most
          advertising is from organisations with no visible public face you don't
          even know exist.

          Its also good for performance - without your internet connection
          being clogged downloading advertising images the net is so much faster.

          Alan
        • David Epling
          Ellsworth, This is new news for you and probably a lot of others, but yahoo has had this in place since they took over egroups over 10 years ago. ... From:
          Message 4 of 14 , Jan 1, 2009
            Ellsworth, This is new news for you and probably a lot of others, but yahoo
            has had this in place since they took over egroups over 10 years ago.


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Ellsworth Geib" <geib@...>
            To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 9:31 AM
            Subject: [Z_Scale] Yahoo is Tracking Group Members


            I received the following message from the Potomac Division of the NMRA.

            "Yahoo is Tracking Group Members

            Yahoo is now using "Web Beacons" to track every Yahoo Group user. It's
            similar to cookies,
            but allows Yahoo to record every website and every group you visit, even
            when you're not
            connected to Yahoo. Look at their updated privacy statement at

            http://info. yahoo.com/ privacy/us/ yahoo/details. html

            About half-way down the page, in the section on cookies, you will see a link
            that says
            WEB BEACONS.

            Click on the phrase "Web Beacons." On the page that opens, on the left find
            a box entitled
            "Opt-Out."

            In that section find "opt-out of interest-matched advertising" link that
            will let you "opt-
            out" of their snooping. Click it and then click the opt-out button on the
            next page.

            Note that Yahoo's invasion of your privacy - and your ability to opt-out of
            it - is not user-
            specific. It is MACHINE specific. That means you will have to opt-out on
            every computer
            (and browser) you use."


            It's getting a little scary what Yahoo and others can do behind our backs.

            Ell Geib


            ------------------------------------

            Z-scale: minimum siZe, MAXIMUM enjoyment!
            Yahoo! Groups Links
          • Don A
            What is the differenec of Yahoo shadowing you wherever you go vs General Motors shadowing Ralph Nader after he wrote his book Unsafe at any Speed . Didn t GM
            Message 5 of 14 , Jan 1, 2009
              What is the differenec of Yahoo shadowing you wherever you go vs
              General Motors shadowing Ralph Nader after he wrote his book "Unsafe
              at any Speed". Didn't GM have to pay some very big dollars to settle
              the case??

              ...don


              --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "David Epling" <cct24@...> wrote:
              >
              > Ellsworth, This is new news for you and probably a lot of others,
              but yahoo
              > has had this in place since they took over egroups over 10 years ago.
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Ellsworth Geib" <geib@...>
              > To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 9:31 AM
              > Subject: [Z_Scale] Yahoo is Tracking Group Members
              >
              >
              > I received the following message from the Potomac Division of the NMRA.
              >
              > "Yahoo is Tracking Group Members
              >
              > Yahoo is now using "Web Beacons" to track every Yahoo Group user. It's
              > similar to cookies,
              > but allows Yahoo to record every website and every group you visit,
              even
              > when you're not
              > connected to Yahoo. Look at their updated privacy statement at
              >
              > http://info. yahoo.com/ privacy/us/ yahoo/details. html
              >
              > About half-way down the page, in the section on cookies, you will
              see a link
              > that says
              > WEB BEACONS.
              >
              > Click on the phrase "Web Beacons." On the page that opens, on the
              left find
              > a box entitled
              > "Opt-Out."
              >
              > In that section find "opt-out of interest-matched advertising" link
              that
              > will let you "opt-
              > out" of their snooping. Click it and then click the opt-out button
              on the
              > next page.
              >
              > Note that Yahoo's invasion of your privacy - and your ability to
              opt-out of
              > it - is not user-
              > specific. It is MACHINE specific. That means you will have to
              opt-out on
              > every computer
              > (and browser) you use."
              >
              >
              > It's getting a little scary what Yahoo and others can do behind our
              backs.
              >
              > Ell Geib
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Z-scale: minimum siZe, MAXIMUM enjoyment!
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
            • Garth Hamilton
              It isn t just Yahoo that is doing this and this has been going on for years. We get free services from any organization that can find out about our habits and
              Message 6 of 14 , Jan 2, 2009
                It isn't just Yahoo that is doing this and this has been going on for
                years. We get free services from any organization that can find out
                about our habits and sell that information to others for marketing.
                If you have a Norton total security package that is all inclusive
                they will delete these web beacons and tracking cookies from your
                system as often as your specify or as soon as they appear. If you
                monitor the output from your computer you can see when your computer
                tries to contact the internet and can block these devices from
                passing their information. This feature is built into Windows XP and
                Vista remember when you are asked each time something runs if you
                really want to do this. Many of us get ticked as this and don't pay
                attention to it and just say yes each time. There are other packages
                that do a similar job some better than others. You can also build a
                proxy server or subscribe to one of the cloaking services that hides
                your actual IP from all sites you visit.

                But if you are that worried about such things you would be horrified
                about what information the various credit bureaus hold on you. To
                avoid tracking you have to start by running totally by cash, no
                credit, no bank, no credit cards, no postal address, no federal tax
                account, no doctors office visits, no dentist office visits, no
                organized work where you receive a pay check no contact with the
                police, no passport, no drivers license, don't attend school, don't
                have your birth recorded, live so remote you are not included in a
                census, don;'t fly, don't ride a train don't have a social insurance
                number etc etc etc

                Get over it because everything you do in live to interact with others
                leaves a trail that someone can and do record and track. Most of us
                are totally unaware of all the data collection that goes on about us
                and are horrified when we discover it. From the day you entered this
                world people have been saving data on you. The older you get the
                bigger the pile of data that is amassed gets.

                Happy New Year
                all big brother is still watching

                Garth

                At 08:05 AM 1/2/2009, "Ellsworth Geib" geib@... you wrote:
                >I received the following message from the Potomac Division of the NMRA.
                >
                >"Yahoo is Tracking Group Members
                >
                >Yahoo is now using "Web Beacons" to track every Yahoo Group user.
                >It's similar to cookies,
                >but allows Yahoo to record every website and every group you visit,
                >even when you're not
                >connected to Yahoo. Look at their updated privacy statement at
                >
                >http://info. yahoo.com/ privacy/us/ yahoo/details. html
                >
                >About half-way down the page, in the section on cookies, you will
                >see a link that says
                >WEB BEACONS.
                >
                >Click on the phrase "Web Beacons." On the page that opens, on the
                >left find a box entitled
                >"Opt-Out."
                >
                >In that section find "opt-out of interest-matched advertising" link
                >that will let you "opt-
                >out" of their snooping. Click it and then click the opt-out button
                >on the next page.
                >
                >Note that Yahoo's invasion of your privacy - and your ability to
                >opt-out of it - is not user-
                >specific. It is MACHINE specific. That means you will have to
                >opt-out on every computer
                >(and browser) you use."
                >
                >
                >It's getting a little scary what Yahoo and others can do behind our backs.
                >
                >Ell Geib
              • Don A
                I think it is quite a bit different to collect EXISTING data as opposed to following/shadowing/stalking you. I ll bet some attorney whose practice is down
                Message 7 of 14 , Jan 2, 2009
                  I think it is quite a bit different to collect EXISTING data as
                  opposed to following/shadowing/stalking you. I'll bet some attorney
                  whose practice is down could have a field day with this. Yahoo must
                  feel there is something special and not be too sure of themselves if
                  they allow an "opt-out". On existing data, I no of no way that you
                  can "opt-out" of someone collecting it. BTW Ralphie Nader appears to
                  have collected about $450,000 in 1970 dollars or about $2,000,000 in
                  2009 dollars.

                  ...don


                  --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Garth Hamilton <garthah@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > It isn't just Yahoo that is doing this and this has been going on for
                  > years. We get free services from any organization that can find out
                  > about our habits and sell that information to others for marketing.
                  > If you have a Norton total security package that is all inclusive
                  > they will delete these web beacons and tracking cookies from your
                  > system as often as your specify or as soon as they appear. If you
                  > monitor the output from your computer you can see when your computer
                  > tries to contact the internet and can block these devices from
                  > passing their information. This feature is built into Windows XP and
                  > Vista remember when you are asked each time something runs if you
                  > really want to do this. Many of us get ticked as this and don't pay
                  > attention to it and just say yes each time. There are other packages
                  > that do a similar job some better than others. You can also build a
                  > proxy server or subscribe to one of the cloaking services that hides
                  > your actual IP from all sites you visit.
                  >
                  > But if you are that worried about such things you would be horrified
                  > about what information the various credit bureaus hold on you. To
                  > avoid tracking you have to start by running totally by cash, no
                  > credit, no bank, no credit cards, no postal address, no federal tax
                  > account, no doctors office visits, no dentist office visits, no
                  > organized work where you receive a pay check no contact with the
                  > police, no passport, no drivers license, don't attend school, don't
                  > have your birth recorded, live so remote you are not included in a
                  > census, don;'t fly, don't ride a train don't have a social insurance
                  > number etc etc etc
                  >
                  > Get over it because everything you do in live to interact with others
                  > leaves a trail that someone can and do record and track. Most of us
                  > are totally unaware of all the data collection that goes on about us
                  > and are horrified when we discover it. From the day you entered this
                  > world people have been saving data on you. The older you get the
                  > bigger the pile of data that is amassed gets.
                  >
                  > Happy New Year
                  > all big brother is still watching
                  >
                  > Garth
                  >
                  > At 08:05 AM 1/2/2009, "Ellsworth Geib" geib@... you wrote:
                  > >I received the following message from the Potomac Division of the NMRA.
                  > >
                  > >"Yahoo is Tracking Group Members
                  > >
                  > >Yahoo is now using "Web Beacons" to track every Yahoo Group user.
                  > >It's similar to cookies,
                  > >but allows Yahoo to record every website and every group you visit,
                  > >even when you're not
                  > >connected to Yahoo. Look at their updated privacy statement at
                  > >
                  > >http://info. yahoo.com/ privacy/us/ yahoo/details. html
                  > >
                  > >About half-way down the page, in the section on cookies, you will
                  > >see a link that says
                  > >WEB BEACONS.
                  > >
                  > >Click on the phrase "Web Beacons." On the page that opens, on the
                  > >left find a box entitled
                  > >"Opt-Out."
                  > >
                  > >In that section find "opt-out of interest-matched advertising" link
                  > >that will let you "opt-
                  > >out" of their snooping. Click it and then click the opt-out button
                  > >on the next page.
                  > >
                  > >Note that Yahoo's invasion of your privacy - and your ability to
                  > >opt-out of it - is not user-
                  > >specific. It is MACHINE specific. That means you will have to
                  > >opt-out on every computer
                  > >(and browser) you use."
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >It's getting a little scary what Yahoo and others can do behind our
                  backs.
                  > >
                  > >Ell Geib
                  >
                • Loren
                  Garth, Now days you have to be dead to be forgotten.........nice combo eh? Loren ... From: Garth Hamilton To:
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jan 2, 2009
                    Garth,
                    Now days you have to be dead to be forgotten.........nice combo eh?
                    Loren

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Garth Hamilton" <garthah@...>
                    To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 6:16 AM
                    Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Yahoo is Tracking Group Members


                    > But if you are that worried about such things you would be horrified
                    > about what information the various credit bureaus hold on you. To
                    > avoid tracking you have to start by running totally by cash, no
                    > credit, no bank, no credit cards, no postal address, no federal tax
                    > account, no doctors office visits, no dentist office visits, no
                    > organized work where you receive a pay check no contact with the
                    > police, no passport, no drivers license, don't attend school, don't
                    > have your birth recorded, live so remote you are not included in a
                    > census, don;'t fly, don't ride a train don't have a social insurance
                    > number etc etc etc

                    > Happy New Year
                    > all big brother is still watching
                    >
                    > Garth
                  • Ellsworth Geib
                    Garth, I ve been around way too long not to fully understand most of what you say. I sent my first e-mail via Arpanet, for example, the precursor to the
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jan 3, 2009
                      Garth,

                      I've been around way too long not to fully understand most of what you say. I sent my first
                      e-mail via Arpanet, for example, the precursor to the internet. And everything we did
                      electronically where I worked (Defense Dept.) was recorded and stored for eternity. It's
                      long been a problem that when something gets into "the computer", it is treated as sacred
                      fact, whether it was a mistake or not. However, as "Don A" says, the idea of
                      "following/shadowing/stalking you" with these Web Beacons was new to me. After my
                      post, I learned of and visited

                      http://networkadvertising.org/managing/opt_out.asp

                      where I found several things beyond Yahoo that have me in their clutches, and I can't
                      determine who or what they are. I despise the practice of having to Opt-Out rather than
                      Opt-In. But I really, really dislike the idea that I am "In" and unaware of it.

                      I'll have to see what is available for the Mac to help reduce some of this Big Brother stuff.

                      Ell


                      --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Garth Hamilton <garthah@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > It isn't just Yahoo that is doing this and this has been going on for
                      > years. We get free services from any organization that can find out
                      > about our habits and sell that information to others for marketing.
                      > If you have a Norton total security package that is all inclusive
                      > they will delete these web beacons and tracking cookies from your
                      > system as often as your specify or as soon as they appear. If you
                      > monitor the output from your computer you can see when your computer
                      > tries to contact the internet and can block these devices from
                      > passing their information. This feature is built into Windows XP and
                      > Vista remember when you are asked each time something runs if you
                      > really want to do this. Many of us get ticked as this and don't pay
                      > attention to it and just say yes each time. There are other packages
                      > that do a similar job some better than others. You can also build a
                      > proxy server or subscribe to one of the cloaking services that hides
                      > your actual IP from all sites you visit.
                      >
                      > But if you are that worried about such things you would be horrified
                      > about what information the various credit bureaus hold on you. To
                      > avoid tracking you have to start by running totally by cash, no
                      > credit, no bank, no credit cards, no postal address, no federal tax
                      > account, no doctors office visits, no dentist office visits, no
                      > organized work where you receive a pay check no contact with the
                      > police, no passport, no drivers license, don't attend school, don't
                      > have your birth recorded, live so remote you are not included in a
                      > census, don;'t fly, don't ride a train don't have a social insurance
                      > number etc etc etc
                      >
                      > Get over it because everything you do in live to interact with others
                      > leaves a trail that someone can and do record and track. Most of us
                      > are totally unaware of all the data collection that goes on about us
                      > and are horrified when we discover it. From the day you entered this
                      > world people have been saving data on you. The older you get the
                      > bigger the pile of data that is amassed gets.
                      >
                      > Happy New Year
                      > all big brother is still watching
                      >
                      > Garth
                      >
                      > At 08:05 AM 1/2/2009, "Ellsworth Geib" geib@... you wrote:
                      > >I received the following message from the Potomac Division of the NMRA.
                      > >
                      > >"Yahoo is Tracking Group Members
                      > >
                      > >Yahoo is now using "Web Beacons" to track every Yahoo Group user.
                      > >It's similar to cookies,
                      > >but allows Yahoo to record every website and every group you visit,
                      > >even when you're not
                      > >connected to Yahoo. Look at their updated privacy statement at
                      > >
                      > >http://info. yahoo.com/ privacy/us/ yahoo/details. html
                      > >
                      > >About half-way down the page, in the section on cookies, you will
                      > >see a link that says
                      > >WEB BEACONS.
                      > >
                      > >Click on the phrase "Web Beacons." On the page that opens, on the
                      > >left find a box entitled
                      > >"Opt-Out."
                      > >
                      > >In that section find "opt-out of interest-matched advertising" link
                      > >that will let you "opt-
                      > >out" of their snooping. Click it and then click the opt-out button
                      > >on the next page.
                      > >
                      > >Note that Yahoo's invasion of your privacy - and your ability to
                      > >opt-out of it - is not user-
                      > >specific. It is MACHINE specific. That means you will have to
                      > >opt-out on every computer
                      > >(and browser) you use."
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >It's getting a little scary what Yahoo and others can do behind our backs.
                      > >
                      > >Ell Geib
                      >
                    • David K. Smith
                      Garth-- All quite true. There are tons of data on each of us. However, for those who are upset by this, bear a few things in mind. First, unless we revert back
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jan 3, 2009
                        Garth--

                        All quite true. There are tons of data on each of us. However, for
                        those who are upset by this, bear a few things in mind.

                        First, unless we revert back to keeping our greebacks under the
                        mattress, modern life requires quite a bit of personal data to be
                        stored and used.

                        Second, 99.9% of "tracking" data is not used in a malicious way; it's
                        the folks who don't have their compuers protected who should be
                        worrying--they unwittingly help drive the data black market with
                        their "zombie" computers acting as accomplices for the evildoers.
                        It's unsettling to think that most spam and data theft schemes
                        are "powered" by innocent people who just don't have a clue about
                        their own computers, and leave them running unprotected 24/7.

                        Third, the concept of "big brother" should really only scare people
                        who have something to hide. True, on rare occasion some innocent Joe
                        gets his life turned inside out by mistake, but people stand a much
                        better chance of being killed in a car accident.

                        Fourth, based on observations I've made of some data-keepers,
                        our "secrets" are quite safe because they are in the hands of dimwits
                        who haven't a clue how to manage the data they have--not to mention
                        they have entirely too much data to manage in the first place. Safety
                        in numbers!

                        I used to lay awake nights fretting over my charge card number
                        being "out there" for someone to misuse. But, I keep my compter very
                        well protected, and I'm extremely mindful of the sites where I make
                        transactions, and over time I've gotten over my fears. Beyond that,
                        if someone is "following" me as I surf the web, well, I cannot for
                        the life of me imagine how this information could be exploited
                        maliciously. The WWW is in such a constant state of flux that half
                        the sites I've visited are probably gone, and the others are pretty
                        darned boring!

                        A friend of mine used to joke, "Just because you're paranoid doesn't
                        mean they're not watching." But seriously, aside from taking the
                        standard precautions against identity theft, I pretty much just
                        ignore everything else and carry on. If someone wants to know were I
                        surf, or what message boards I frequent, well, good luck to them
                        trying to figure out how to take advantage of that information.

                        --David

                        http://jamesriverbranch.net/
                        http://1-220.blogspot.com/


                        --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Garth Hamilton <garthah@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > It isn't just Yahoo that is doing this and this has been going on
                        for
                        > years. We get free services from any organization that can find out
                        > about our habits and sell that information to others for marketing.
                        > If you have a Norton total security package that is all inclusive
                        > they will delete these web beacons and tracking cookies from your
                        > system as often as your specify or as soon as they appear. If you
                        > monitor the output from your computer you can see when your
                        computer
                        > tries to contact the internet and can block these devices from
                        > passing their information. This feature is built into Windows XP
                        and
                        > Vista remember when you are asked each time something runs if you
                        > really want to do this. Many of us get ticked as this and don't pay
                        > attention to it and just say yes each time. There are other
                        packages
                        > that do a similar job some better than others. You can also build a
                        > proxy server or subscribe to one of the cloaking services that
                        hides
                        > your actual IP from all sites you visit.
                        >
                        > But if you are that worried about such things you would be
                        horrified
                        > about what information the various credit bureaus hold on you. To
                        > avoid tracking you have to start by running totally by cash, no
                        > credit, no bank, no credit cards, no postal address, no federal tax
                        > account, no doctors office visits, no dentist office visits, no
                        > organized work where you receive a pay check no contact with the
                        > police, no passport, no drivers license, don't attend school, don't
                        > have your birth recorded, live so remote you are not included in a
                        > census, don;'t fly, don't ride a train don't have a social
                        insurance
                        > number etc etc etc
                        >
                        > Get over it because everything you do in live to interact with
                        others
                        > leaves a trail that someone can and do record and track. Most of us
                        > are totally unaware of all the data collection that goes on about
                        us
                        > and are horrified when we discover it. From the day you entered
                        this
                        > world people have been saving data on you. The older you get the
                        > bigger the pile of data that is amassed gets.
                        >
                        > Happy New Year
                        > all big brother is still watching
                        >
                        > Garth
                        >
                      • Alan Cox
                        ... Do you define malicious as charging you different amounts for the same product according to a mathematic model of your income I certainly prefer them to
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jan 3, 2009
                          > Second, 99.9% of "tracking" data is not used in a malicious way; it's

                          Do you define malicious as "charging you different amounts for
                          the same product according to a mathematic model of your income"

                          I certainly prefer them to have poor or invalid data so they can't screw
                          me.

                          > Third, the concept of "big brother" should really only scare people
                          > who have something to hide. True, on rare occasion some innocent Joe
                          > gets his life turned inside out by mistake, but people stand a much
                          > better chance of being killed in a car accident.

                          Please cite the statistical data you are using. I don't believe you, and
                          if you knew someone with the same name as someone on the US idiot no-fly
                          list you'd have different views I think.

                          > Fourth, based on observations I've made of some data-keepers,
                          > our "secrets" are quite safe because they are in the hands of dimwits
                          > who haven't a clue how to manage the data they have--not to mention
                          > they have entirely too much data to manage in the first place. Safety
                          > in numbers!

                          Those are the people who lose copies of all their data and post it
                          unencrypted on CD and lose them (like the UK government...)

                          > I used to lay awake nights fretting over my charge card number
                          > being "out there" for someone to misuse. But, I keep my compter very
                          > well protected, and I'm extremely mindful of the sites where I make
                          > transactions, and over time I've gotten over my fears. Beyond that,

                          (some real statistics for you: more card fraud occurs by phone than
                          internet - because the phone ordering involves a human paid minimum wage
                          having all your details. Internet retailers go to huge lengths to keep
                          card numbers and info from ever being in the hands of an employee.
                          Companies that do electronic card handling are also subject to regular
                          security audits and a strict security policy from the card companies).

                          > if someone is "following" me as I surf the web, well, I cannot for
                          > the life of me imagine how this information could be exploited
                          > maliciously.

                          The advertisers use it to build an exact profile of you to optimise their
                          advertising but also in some cases to change the prices you are offered.
                          Its the electronic equivalent of the rule about going to buy electronic
                          goods or a car looking shabby, and never wearing a suit when you are
                          going to haggle.

                          Fraudsters and scammers don't generally have access to the same data sets
                          (although obviously when there are leaks...). They often work off public
                          data however - names of relatives and parents etc

                          Find a person who runs a business
                          Get the business address
                          Look em up on facebook
                          Build a map of their relatives
                          Find their mothers family if at all possible
                          Get the mothers maiden name

                          At that point you've typically got enough to scam a bank account or a
                          hire purchase (although companies have gotten a lot more careful).

                          A recent and even more evil variant of this involves using a cheque to get
                          a persons account details, picking up name and address information from
                          them (easy if its an order you lifted) then transferring money to the
                          persons account. A common bank authentication approach when you phone up
                          and forget passwords etc will be

                          "Name" blah
                          "Date of birth" blah off facebook
                          "Mothers maiden name" blah off facebook
                          "Can you tell me one of your most recent transactions"
                          "Certainly ...." (give details of xfer from another stolen acct
                          into this one)

                          Some of the scammers are very very clever and there is an ongoing battle
                          between the banks, business world and scammers to invent new techniques.

                          Alan
                        • David K. Smith
                          OK, then, I suppose I d better batten down the hatches and be prepared for the worst! Clearly I ve underestimated the hostile nature of the world. --David
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jan 3, 2009
                            OK, then, I suppose I'd better batten down the hatches and be
                            prepared for the worst! Clearly I've underestimated the hostile
                            nature of the world.

                            --David

                            http://jamesriverbranch.net/
                            http://1-220.blogspot.com/

                            --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Alan Cox <alan@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > Second, 99.9% of "tracking" data is not used in a malicious way;
                            it's
                            >
                            > Do you define malicious as "charging you different amounts for
                            > the same product according to a mathematic model of your income"
                            >
                            > I certainly prefer them to have poor or invalid data so they can't
                            screw
                            > me.
                            >
                            > > Third, the concept of "big brother" should really only scare
                            people
                            > > who have something to hide. True, on rare occasion some innocent
                            Joe
                            > > gets his life turned inside out by mistake, but people stand a
                            much
                            > > better chance of being killed in a car accident.
                            >
                            > Please cite the statistical data you are using. I don't believe
                            you, and
                            > if you knew someone with the same name as someone on the US idiot
                            no-fly
                            > list you'd have different views I think.
                            >
                            > > Fourth, based on observations I've made of some data-keepers,
                            > > our "secrets" are quite safe because they are in the hands of
                            dimwits
                            > > who haven't a clue how to manage the data they have--not to
                            mention
                            > > they have entirely too much data to manage in the first place.
                            Safety
                            > > in numbers!
                            >
                            > Those are the people who lose copies of all their data and post it
                            > unencrypted on CD and lose them (like the UK government...)
                            >
                            > > I used to lay awake nights fretting over my charge card number
                            > > being "out there" for someone to misuse. But, I keep my compter
                            very
                            > > well protected, and I'm extremely mindful of the sites where I
                            make
                            > > transactions, and over time I've gotten over my fears. Beyond
                            that,
                            >
                            > (some real statistics for you: more card fraud occurs by phone than
                            > internet - because the phone ordering involves a human paid minimum
                            wage
                            > having all your details. Internet retailers go to huge lengths to
                            keep
                            > card numbers and info from ever being in the hands of an employee.
                            > Companies that do electronic card handling are also subject to
                            regular
                            > security audits and a strict security policy from the card
                            companies).
                            >
                            > > if someone is "following" me as I surf the web, well, I cannot
                            for
                            > > the life of me imagine how this information could be exploited
                            > > maliciously.
                            >
                            > The advertisers use it to build an exact profile of you to optimise
                            their
                            > advertising but also in some cases to change the prices you are
                            offered.
                            > Its the electronic equivalent of the rule about going to buy
                            electronic
                            > goods or a car looking shabby, and never wearing a suit when you are
                            > going to haggle.
                            >
                            > Fraudsters and scammers don't generally have access to the same
                            data sets
                            > (although obviously when there are leaks...). They often work off
                            public
                            > data however - names of relatives and parents etc
                            >
                            > Find a person who runs a business
                            > Get the business address
                            > Look em up on facebook
                            > Build a map of their relatives
                            > Find their mothers family if at all possible
                            > Get the mothers maiden name
                            >
                            > At that point you've typically got enough to scam a bank account or
                            a
                            > hire purchase (although companies have gotten a lot more careful).
                            >
                            > A recent and even more evil variant of this involves using a cheque
                            to get
                            > a persons account details, picking up name and address information
                            from
                            > them (easy if its an order you lifted) then transferring money to
                            the
                            > persons account. A common bank authentication approach when you
                            phone up
                            > and forget passwords etc will be
                            >
                            > "Name" blah
                            > "Date of birth" blah off facebook
                            > "Mothers maiden name" blah off facebook
                            > "Can you tell me one of your most recent transactions"
                            > "Certainly ...." (give details of xfer from another stolen
                            acct
                            > into this one)
                            >
                            > Some of the scammers are very very clever and there is an ongoing
                            battle
                            > between the banks, business world and scammers to invent new
                            techniques.
                            >
                            > Alan
                            >
                          • Larry Card
                            ... I would prefer not to have the police search through my underwear drawer without a warrant, not because I have something to hide but simply because it s
                            Message 13 of 14 , Jan 3, 2009
                              > Third, the concept of "big brother" should really only scare people
                              > who have something to hide.

                              I would prefer not to have the police search through my underwear drawer without a warrant, not because I have something to hide but simply because it's none of their business what's in there. Likewise, the concept of big brother keeping an eye on me "just because" bothers me, not because I have something to hide but because it's none of their damn business what I'm doing or how I'm spending my time, as long as I am not bringing physical or financial harm to anyone through force or fraud.

                              It also bothers me that not more people are bothered by that.

                              > Fourth, based on observations I've made of some data-keepers,
                              > our "secrets" are quite safe because they are in the hands of dimwits
                              > who haven't a clue how to manage the data they have--not to mention
                              > they have entirely too much data to manage in the first place. Safety
                              > in numbers!

                              Which is why you have those very same dimwits putting your personal information on laptops, which they then take home, which are then stolen out of their cars, and then your personal information belongs to some hacker or ID thief. I wouldn't call that exactly safe, and it's another good reason to be bothered by "big brother" watching you. FWIW, my personal information has had the opportunity to be lost in exactly that way, once through the US Navy and once through the VA, within a 3 year span.

                              > if someone is "following" me as I surf the web, well, I cannot for
                              > the life of me imagine how this information could be exploited
                              > maliciously.

                              But those who would exploit you maliciously have all sorts of ideas, and a very good imagination. Ten years ago we couldn't fathom the World Trade Center towers 1 and 2 being taken down by jet airliners...but someone else could. We couldn't imagine what someone would do with our information because we wouldn't be so inclined to be malicious with someone else's information. Others aren't so magnanamous.

                              > surf, or what message boards I frequent, well, good luck to them
                              > trying to figure out how to take advantage of that information.

                              Luck has nothing to do with it.

                              V/R
                              Larry P. Card
                              Franklinton NC

                              _________________________________________________________________
                              Life on your PC is safer, easier, and more enjoyable with Windows Vista®.
                              http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/127032870/direct/01/

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Larry Card
                              ... And sometimes even that doesn t work... V/R Larry P. Card Franklinton NC _________________________________________________________________ Life on your PC
                              Message 14 of 14 , Jan 3, 2009
                                > Now days you have to be dead to be forgotten.........nice combo eh?

                                And sometimes even that doesn't work...
                                V/R
                                Larry P. Card
                                Franklinton NC

                                _________________________________________________________________
                                Life on your PC is safer, easier, and more enjoyable with Windows Vista®.
                                http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/127032870/direct/01/

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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