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Warping white foam

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  • ckuttner
    I want to share the story of the seismic disaster occurring on the Oakville & Poorfarm RR. I built my layout on 1.5 white foam, 2 feet by 4 feet. I ve been in
    Message 1 of 19 , Dec 25 3:43 PM
      I want to share the story of the seismic disaster occurring on the Oakville & Poorfarm RR.

      I built my layout on 1.5" white foam, 2 feet by 4 feet. I've been in the process of putting on
      scenery, and have noticed the track is coming up in various places, ranging from the track
      pulling itself off my Zthek roadbed, but at more points with the tracks popping out of the
      ties.

      I finally realize what's happening: the foam is warping, the ends going up relative to the
      middle.

      I am in the process of trying to glue down the foam to plywood. I decided to try Gorilla
      Glue, and it worked for awhile...until it starting popping apart after I removed weights
      after the recommended two hours' curing time. I'm trying again with this and will leave the
      weights on a lot longer.

      Does this mean that white foam is a bad idea? Does this have something to do with the
      cold weather--basement is heated, but it's down to about 60 degrees F.

      I really like this layout and don't want to have to trash it. But would blue foam have been
      more stable?

      Thanks in advance,

      chas

      Charles Kuttner, MD
      Portland, Oregon, USA
      http://www.kuttner.name

      Otherwise known as:
      Col. Cornelius Kuttner
      Proprietor, psychopathist and microferroequinologist, Oakville & Poorfarm RR
    • Don A
      I used a 4 x 8 2 thick pink foam which is very stiff. It is supported underneath with latticework on 2 centers so there is support in squares of 2 x 2 .
      Message 2 of 19 , Dec 25 4:59 PM
        I used a 4'x 8' 2" thick pink foam which is very stiff. It is
        supported underneath with latticework on 2' centers so there is
        support in squares of 2' x 2'. I used liquid nails to hold the track
        down and there has been no problem after about 3 years. Location is
        the basement, which is both heated and cooled BUT there are large
        windows that let great amounts of sunlight in on a daily basis. FWIW

        ...don


        --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "ckuttner" <ckuttner@...> wrote:
        >
        > I want to share the story of the seismic disaster occurring on the
        Oakville & Poorfarm RR.
        >
        > I built my layout on 1.5" white foam, 2 feet by 4 feet. I've been in
        the process of putting on
        > scenery, and have noticed the track is coming up in various places,
        ranging from the track
        > pulling itself off my Zthek roadbed, but at more points with the
        tracks popping out of the
        > ties.
        >
        > I finally realize what's happening: the foam is warping, the ends
        going up relative to the
        > middle.
        >
        > I am in the process of trying to glue down the foam to plywood. I
        decided to try Gorilla
        > Glue, and it worked for awhile...until it starting popping apart
        after I removed weights
        > after the recommended two hours' curing time. I'm trying again with
        this and will leave the
        > weights on a lot longer.
        >
        > Does this mean that white foam is a bad idea? Does this have
        something to do with the
        > cold weather--basement is heated, but it's down to about 60 degrees F.
        >
        > I really like this layout and don't want to have to trash it. But
        would blue foam have been
        > more stable?
        >
        > Thanks in advance,
        >
        > chas
        >
        > Charles Kuttner, MD
        > Portland, Oregon, USA
        > http://www.kuttner.name
        >
        > Otherwise known as:
        > Col. Cornelius Kuttner
        > Proprietor, psychopathist and microferroequinologist, Oakville &
        Poorfarm RR
        >
      • ckuttner
        Oops, I meant pink, not blue foam. (girls, boys....) I m just hoping that, between my gluing the foil side of the white foam sheet to the plywood, and maybe
        Message 3 of 19 , Dec 25 5:51 PM
          Oops, I meant pink, not blue foam. (girls, boys....)

          I'm just hoping that, between my gluing the foil side of the white foam sheet to the
          plywood, and maybe taping it down using either clear tape or good ol' duct tape, that
          maybe the foam will behave.

          Would be nice if some kind of tape would enhance, not detract from the appearance of the
          layout....

          chas

          --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Don A" <zbarr474@...> wrote:
          >
          > I used a 4'x 8' 2" thick pink foam which is very stiff. It is
          > supported underneath with latticework on 2' centers so there is
          > support in squares of 2' x 2'. I used liquid nails to hold the track
          > down and there has been no problem after about 3 years. Location is
          > the basement, which is both heated and cooled BUT there are large
          > windows that let great amounts of sunlight in on a daily basis. FWIW
          >
          > ...don
          >
          >
          > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "ckuttner" <ckuttner@> wrote:
          > >
          > > I want to share the story of the seismic disaster occurring on the
          > Oakville & Poorfarm RR.
          > >
          > > I built my layout on 1.5" white foam, 2 feet by 4 feet. I've been in
          > the process of putting on
          > > scenery, and have noticed the track is coming up in various places,
          > ranging from the track
          > > pulling itself off my Zthek roadbed, but at more points with the
          > tracks popping out of the
          > > ties.
          > >
          > > I finally realize what's happening: the foam is warping, the ends
          > going up relative to the
          > > middle.
          > >
          > > I am in the process of trying to glue down the foam to plywood. I
          > decided to try Gorilla
          > > Glue, and it worked for awhile...until it starting popping apart
          > after I removed weights
          > > after the recommended two hours' curing time. I'm trying again with
          > this and will leave the
          > > weights on a lot longer.
          > >
          > > Does this mean that white foam is a bad idea? Does this have
          > something to do with the
          > > cold weather--basement is heated, but it's down to about 60 degrees F.
          > >
          > > I really like this layout and don't want to have to trash it. But
          > would blue foam have been
          > > more stable?
          > >
          > > Thanks in advance,
          > >
          > > chas
          > >
          > > Charles Kuttner, MD
          > > Portland, Oregon, USA
          > > http://www.kuttner.name
          > >
          > > Otherwise known as:
          > > Col. Cornelius Kuttner
          > > Proprietor, psychopathist and microferroequinologist, Oakville &
          > Poorfarm RR
          > >
          >
        • Loren
          Charles, Do you mean the soft white foam like you find in stereo, hi fi and other appliance boxes? If so, that is a bad idea. It isn t strong like the pink
          Message 4 of 19 , Dec 25 6:26 PM
            Charles,
            Do you mean the soft white foam like you find in stereo, hi fi and other
            appliance boxes? If so, that is a bad idea. It isn't strong like the pink
            or blue foam. I only use it on occasion to build the basic mountain shapes,
            but most folks do not use it at all for anything except to stick tree
            armatures into for painting.

            Loren

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "ckuttner" <ckuttner@...>
            To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, December 25, 2008 3:43 PM
            Subject: [Z_Scale] Warping white foam


            snip.....
            >I want to share the story of the seismic disaster occurring on the Oakville
            >& Poorfarm RR.
            >
            > I built my layout on 1.5" white foam, 2 feet by 4 feet.
          • ckuttner
            Thanks, Loren. Alas, my layout may be suffering from Terminal Continental Drift. I ve heard off-list from one other person with the same concerns on the white
            Message 5 of 19 , Dec 25 7:49 PM
              Thanks, Loren. Alas, my layout may be suffering from Terminal Continental Drift. I've
              heard off-list from one other person with the same concerns on the white foam.

              Actually, this is white insulation board I bought at Home Despot or somewhere like that.
              However, when I compare it to the pink stuff, it definitely seems to be a bunch of little
              white beads put together, and not as solid a unit as the pink stuff.

              Thoughts I have include:
              1) just hoping for the best, possibly using duct or clear tape to hold the layout down from
              the top, although the foil side that I'm gluing down seems to not be separating from the
              layout

              2) Gritting my teeth and peeling the track (on Zthek roadbed, which is more likely to pop
              up a layer of the white foam than to let go of the track) up from the existing white board,
              cleaning it, and gluing it down onto to new board of pink foam

              3) Just tearfully trashing the works, buying new MT flex track, and doing it all over again.

              4) The real miracle would be some way to soak the white foam at all exposed edges, to
              help it hold together better. Diluted white glue? A gallon of ACC cement?

              I will welcome any ideas...oh, well, if all else fails, this has all been good practice for my
              second Z layout. Have the fun is building the layout, right?

              chas

              --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Loren" <ljsnyder@...> wrote:
              >
              > Charles,
              > Do you mean the soft white foam like you find in stereo, hi fi and other
              > appliance boxes? If so, that is a bad idea. It isn't strong like the pink
              > or blue foam. I only use it on occasion to build the basic mountain shapes,
              > but most folks do not use it at all for anything except to stick tree
              > armatures into for painting.
              >
              > Loren
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "ckuttner" <ckuttner@...>
              > To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Thursday, December 25, 2008 3:43 PM
              > Subject: [Z_Scale] Warping white foam
              >
              >
              > snip.....
              > >I want to share the story of the seismic disaster occurring on the Oakville
              > >& Poorfarm RR.
              > >
              > > I built my layout on 1.5" white foam, 2 feet by 4 feet.
              >
            • Thomas Creighton Sr
              what you are using is standard styrofoam which is made up of blown plastic beads, what to ask for is insulboard. you can remove the track with a wide plaster
              Message 6 of 19 , Dec 25 8:43 PM
                what you are using is standard styrofoam which is made up of blown plastic beads, what to ask for is insulboard. you can remove the track with a wide plaster board knife and going out in the fresh air use a hand torch very carefully melting the remaining foam without melting the plastic ties, try what else do you have to loose.

                --- On Thu, 12/25/08, ckuttner <ckuttner@...> wrote:

                From: ckuttner <ckuttner@...>
                Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: Warping white foam
                To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Thursday, December 25, 2008, 9:49 PM






                Thanks, Loren. Alas, my layout may be suffering from Terminal Continental Drift. I've
                heard off-list from one other person with the same concerns on the white foam.

                Actually, this is white insulation board I bought at Home Despot or somewhere like that.
                However, when I compare it to the pink stuff, it definitely seems to be a bunch of little
                white beads put together, and not as solid a unit as the pink stuff.

                Thoughts I have include:
                1) just hoping for the best, possibly using duct or clear tape to hold the layout down from
                the top, although the foil side that I'm gluing down seems to not be separating from the
                layout

                2) Gritting my teeth and peeling the track (on Zthek roadbed, which is more likely to pop
                up a layer of the white foam than to let go of the track) up from the existing white board,
                cleaning it, and gluing it down onto to new board of pink foam

                3) Just tearfully trashing the works, buying new MT flex track, and doing it all over again.

                4) The real miracle would be some way to soak the white foam at all exposed edges, to
                help it hold together better. Diluted white glue? A gallon of ACC cement?

                I will welcome any ideas...oh, well, if all else fails, this has all been good practice for my
                second Z layout. Have the fun is building the layout, right?

                chas

                --- In z_scale@yahoogroups .com, "Loren" <ljsnyder@.. .> wrote:
                >
                > Charles,
                > Do you mean the soft white foam like you find in stereo, hi fi and other
                > appliance boxes? If so, that is a bad idea. It isn't strong like the pink
                > or blue foam. I only use it on occasion to build the basic mountain shapes,
                > but most folks do not use it at all for anything except to stick tree
                > armatures into for painting.
                >
                > Loren
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "ckuttner" <ckuttner@.. .>
                > To: <z_scale@yahoogroups .com>
                > Sent: Thursday, December 25, 2008 3:43 PM
                > Subject: [Z_Scale] Warping white foam
                >
                >
                > snip.....
                > >I want to share the story of the seismic disaster occurring on the Oakville
                > >& Poorfarm RR.
                > >
                > > I built my layout on 1.5" white foam, 2 feet by 4 feet.
                >















                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Loren
                Well Charles, You have anchored your layout to the bad stuff. White bead type foam should never be used for the base. It is not stable and definitely not
                Message 7 of 19 , Dec 25 8:57 PM
                  Well Charles,
                  You have anchored your layout to the bad stuff. White bead type foam should
                  never be used for the base. It is not stable and definitely not strong as
                  the blue and pink is.

                  I think if you could remove the track from the white foam and start over,
                  the end results would be a lot stronger and sturdier.

                  I know, these are painful decisions, but to put it bluntly, you can't build
                  a sky scraper on sand stone....you need bed rock.
                  I'm afraid you have a lot of sand stone my friend.

                  The question is.......can you safely remove the track from the underlayment
                  without damaging the track? If is secured with white glue, then just soak
                  it with water and the whole thing should come loose.

                  Believe me, a lot of us can feel your pain. A difficult learning
                  experience, but doing it with the right materials is critical for a good
                  layout.

                  In the future, if you have any concerns what so ever, just come to the
                  different sites and ask before you jump in. You will receive very good
                  experienced advice from many who have gone before and even made some of the
                  same mistakes you have.

                  You have plenty of time to get your layout back down on a good foundation
                  and scenicked by the Portland show. Just an hour a day will give you a lot
                  of working time. Maybe you can devote several evenings of marathon work
                  which will see you along quite a ways.

                  Don't despair Charles, but this can be salvaged with some effort and you
                  will be much happier in the end.


                  Best to you,
                  Loren


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "ckuttner" <ckuttner@...>
                  To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, December 25, 2008 7:49 PM
                  Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: Warping white foam


                  > Thanks, Loren. Alas, my layout may be suffering from Terminal Continental
                  > Drift. I've
                  > heard off-list from one other person with the same concerns on the white
                  > foam.
                  >
                  > Actually, this is white insulation board I bought at Home Despot or
                  > somewhere like that.
                  > However, when I compare it to the pink stuff, it definitely seems to be a
                  > bunch of little
                  > white beads put together, and not as solid a unit as the pink stuff.
                  >
                  > Thoughts I have include:
                  > 1) just hoping for the best, possibly using duct or clear tape to hold the
                  > layout down from
                  > the top, although the foil side that I'm gluing down seems to not be
                  > separating from the
                  > layout
                  >
                  > 2) Gritting my teeth and peeling the track (on Zthek roadbed, which is
                  > more likely to pop
                  > up a layer of the white foam than to let go of the track) up from the
                  > existing white board,
                  > cleaning it, and gluing it down onto to new board of pink foam
                  >
                  > 3) Just tearfully trashing the works, buying new MT flex track, and doing
                  > it all over again.
                  >
                  > 4) The real miracle would be some way to soak the white foam at all
                  > exposed edges, to
                  > help it hold together better. Diluted white glue? A gallon of ACC cement?
                  >
                  > I will welcome any ideas...oh, well, if all else fails, this has all been
                  > good practice for my
                  > second Z layout. Have the fun is building the layout, right?
                  >
                  > chas
                • donfedjur@aol.com
                  Charles, The real problem that you are actually having is the temperature change on the foil side portion of your polystyrene foam. This is especially true if
                  Message 8 of 19 , Dec 25 11:53 PM
                    Charles,



                    The real problem that you are actually having is the temperature change on the foil side portion of your polystyrene foam. This is especially true if the foil is only on the one side. It was never meant to be glued to anything.

                    As Loren points out, higher density "extruded" polystyrene foam "board" of the blue and pink variety lends it's properties better for MRR applications. You can still use white foam for it's lightweight characteristics, just that it's lower density is not good for anchoring anything into it. I put a thin coat of Hydrocal Plaster over it for landscaping hills and such, it then provides a good solid base to put tree's etc. into., but not really adaquate for "nailing".

                    Your "gorilla" glue is a polyurethane based product that works great with foams, especially with the polystyrene products. It is attracted to moisture and has expanding properties when exposed to H2O. To true get the best adhesion result from it, you need to wet with water both surfaces to be applied, read glued. The polyurethane expands to a degree increasing the adhesion area and property all while being light weight. I have created very lightweight modular tables using the white foam as a center sandwich between luan mahogany with gorilla glue with perfect no-warping results. The inner white foam panels are bare, both sides.

                    Try to remove your foam and take off the foil, peel, cut, chop, and you should eliminate the warp. Otherwise, go to the higher density pink or blue and chalk it up to experience. On any of the foams, you can "implant" small pieces of wood, using gorilla glue to fasten, giving you areas where you?want better anchoring/support/nailing, etc.

                    Good luck!



                    Don Fedjur
                    Carlsbad, CA




                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: ckuttner <ckuttner@...>
                    To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 7:49 pm
                    Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: Warping white foam






                    Thanks, Loren. Alas, my layout may be suffering from Terminal Continental Drift. I've
                    heard off-list from one other person with the same concerns on the white foam.

                    Actually, this is white insulation board I bought at Home Despot or somewhere like that.
                    However, when I compare it to the pink stuff, it definitely seems to be a bunch of little
                    white beads put together, and not as solid a unit as the pink stuff.

                    Thoughts I have include:
                    1) just hoping for the best, possibly using duct or clear tape to hold the layout down from
                    the top, although the foil side that I'm gluing down seems to not be separating from the
                    layout

                    2) Gritting my teeth and peeling the track (on Zthek roadbed, which is more likely to pop
                    up a layer of the white foam than to let go of the track) up from the existing white board,
                    cleaning it, and gluing it down onto to new board of pink foam

                    3) Just tearfully trashing the works, buying new MT flex track, and doing it all over again.

                    4) The real miracle would be some way to soak the white foam at all exposed edges, to
                    help it hold together better. Diluted white glue? A gallon of ACC cement?

                    I will welcome any ideas...oh, well, if all else fails, this has all been good practice for my
                    second Z layout. Have the fun is building the layout, right?

                    chas

                    --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Loren" <ljsnyder@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Charles,
                    > Do you mean the soft white foam like you find in stereo, hi fi and other
                    > appliance boxes? If so, that is a bad idea. It isn't strong like the pink
                    > or blue foam. I only use it on occasion to build the basic mountain shapes,
                    > but most folks do not use it at all for anything except to stick tree
                    > armatures into for painting.
                    >
                    > Loren
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "ckuttner" <ckuttner@...>
                    > To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Thursday, December 25, 2008 3:43 PM
                    > Subject: [Z_Scale] Warping white foam
                    >
                    >
                    > snip.....
                    > >I want to share the story of the seismic disaster occurring on the Oakville
                    > >& Poorfarm RR.
                    > >
                    > > I built my layout on 1.5" white foam, 2 feet by 4 feet.
                    >






                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • ckuttner
                    Thanks to all, particularly Don and Loren, during this tough time for me. Actually, it s a great I cried because I had no shoes..., as good friends are going
                    Message 9 of 19 , Dec 26 5:30 AM
                      Thanks to all, particularly Don and Loren, during this tough time for me. Actually, it's a
                      great "I cried because I had no shoes...," as good friends are going through essentially the
                      same problem, except in their case it's not their train layout, but their house, as the
                      hillside it was built on in the 1930s is coming down.

                      Our own version is other non-cohesive white stuff, otherwise known as "it's snowing in
                      Portland and we are stranded at home, can't even get out to buy pink foam!"

                      So far, it's holding together fairly well, and I'm considering painting the exposed edges
                      with white glue. But I realize the major risks of more shifting, and I think I need to bite the
                      bullet and go to work changing my track to a better base.

                      As to that one hour per night, Loren....if only I had that! But challenges can be fun...

                      chas

                      --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, donfedjur@... wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Charles,
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > The real problem that you are actually having is the temperature change on the foil side
                      portion of your polystyrene foam. This is especially true if the foil is only on the one side.
                      It was never meant to be glued to anything.
                      >
                      > As Loren points out, higher density "extruded" polystyrene foam "board" of the blue and
                      pink variety lends it's properties better for MRR applications. You can still use white foam
                      for it's lightweight characteristics, just that it's lower density is not good for anchoring
                      anything into it. I put a thin coat of Hydrocal Plaster over it for landscaping hills and such,
                      it then provides a good solid base to put tree's etc. into., but not really adaquate for
                      "nailing".
                      >

                      Charles Kuttner, MD
                      Portland, Oregon, USA
                      http://www.kuttner.name

                      Otherwise known as:
                      Col. Cornelius Kuttner
                      Proprietor, psychopathist and microferroequinologist, Oakville & Poorfarm RR
                    • Garth Hamilton
                      Only the blue or pink foam will not curl like your white foam. The white product has too much air in it and does not have the density of the pink or blue
                      Message 10 of 19 , Dec 26 7:33 AM
                        Only the blue or pink foam will not curl like your white foam. The
                        white product has too much air in it and does not have the density of
                        the pink or blue stuff. The pink and blue stuff is designed as wall
                        insulation and has to stay flat when glued to the basement wall or on
                        plywood under a plywood roof sheeting. The white stuff can not be
                        used for this purpose.

                        The white stuff can be used on top of the pink or blue for scenery
                        shapes when glued to the pink or blue base. I also do not track road
                        bed on top of the white stuff unless it is from Woodland Scenics.

                        cheers Garth


                        At 08:02 AM 12/26/2008, "ckuttner" ckuttner@... wrote:
                        >I want to share the story of the seismic disaster occurring on the
                        >Oakville & Poorfarm RR.
                        >
                        >I built my layout on 1.5" white foam, 2 feet by 4 feet. I've been in
                        >the process of putting on
                        >scenery, and have noticed the track is coming up in various places,
                        >ranging from the track
                        >pulling itself off my Zthek roadbed, but at more points with the
                        >tracks popping out of the
                        >ties.
                        >
                        >I finally realize what's happening: the foam is warping, the ends
                        >going up relative to the
                        >middle.
                        >
                        >I am in the process of trying to glue down the foam to plywood. I
                        >decided to try Gorilla
                        >Glue, and it worked for awhile...until it starting popping apart
                        >after I removed weights
                        >after the recommended two hours' curing time. I'm trying again with
                        >this and will leave the
                        >weights on a lot longer.
                        >
                        >Does this mean that white foam is a bad idea? Does this have
                        >something to do with the
                        >cold weather--basement is heated, but it's down to about 60 degrees F.
                        >
                        >I really like this layout and don't want to have to trash it. But
                        >would blue foam have been
                        >more stable?
                        >
                        >Thanks in advance,
                        >
                        >chas
                        >
                        >Charles Kuttner, MD
                        >Portland, Oregon, USA
                        >http://www.kuttner.name
                        >
                        >Otherwise known as:
                        >Col. Cornelius Kuttner
                        >Proprietor, psychopathist and microferroequinologist, Oakville & Poorfarm RR
                      • Loren
                        Charles, Whether you bite the bullet or not, I am reminded of a posting Robert Ray made over a year ago concerning finding time to work on trains........he
                        Message 11 of 19 , Dec 26 9:46 AM
                          Charles,

                          Whether you bite the bullet or not, I am reminded of a posting Robert Ray
                          made over a year ago concerning finding time to work on trains........he
                          said if you will just spend 15 minutes a day on your trains, you end up with
                          almost 2 hours a week.

                          It sounds so simple, but try putting that theory into practice. One of the
                          most difficult goals I've ever persued, and so far been unable to
                          accomplish.

                          More snow in Portland?..........man you guys are really getting socked this
                          year, and we're only into winter less than a week !!!
                          What is the weather outlook for the weekend? Our boys are supposed to catch
                          a flight to Alaska tomorrow and either stop in Portland or Seattle. Isn't
                          looking too good.

                          I don't suppose I could talk them into helping me with my daily 15 minutes
                          in the train room if they don't catch the flight.......I may be working with
                          some majorly disgruntled boys if the flight doesn't happen.

                          Back to my trains for the moment,
                          Loren


                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "ckuttner" <ckuttner@...>
                          To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 5:30 AM
                          Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: Warping white foam


                          > Thanks to all, particularly Don and Loren, during this tough time for me.
                          > Actually, it's a
                          > great "I cried because I had no shoes...," as good friends are going
                          > through essentially the
                          > same problem, except in their case it's not their train layout, but their
                          > house, as the
                          > hillside it was built on in the 1930s is coming down.
                          >
                          > Our own version is other non-cohesive white stuff, otherwise known as
                          > "it's snowing in
                          > Portland and we are stranded at home, can't even get out to buy pink
                          > foam!"
                          >
                          > So far, it's holding together fairly well, and I'm considering painting
                          > the exposed edges
                          > with white glue. But I realize the major risks of more shifting, and I
                          > think I need to bite the
                          > bullet and go to work changing my track to a better base.
                          >
                          > As to that one hour per night, Loren....if only I had that! But challenges
                          > can be fun...
                          >
                          > chas
                          >
                          > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, donfedjur@... wrote:
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> Charles,
                        • Allan
                          Chas, the white foam is made from petrol, (gasoline) I understand and petrol melts it, (easily!). It could be dangerous in a confined space obviously, so be
                          Message 12 of 19 , Dec 26 10:01 AM
                            Chas, the white foam is made from petrol, (gasoline) I understand and
                            petrol melts it, (easily!). It could be dangerous in a confined space
                            obviously, so be careful of fumes and naked lights, but if you can organize
                            the safety angle, I'd try brushing a little petrol onto a test piece of
                            track and see what happens. If you could do it outside, I'd say that was a
                            lot safer. However, petrol won't melt the plastic track. Acetone will
                            though.

                            Luck

                            Allan

                            Allan Wright, (Norfolk, UK)



                            >>I will welcome any ideas...oh, well, if all else fails, this has all been
                            good practice for my
                            second Z layout. Have the fun is building the layout, right?<<

                            Chas.<<






                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Melissa Cull
                            Allan & Chas, Absolutely categorically NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO Don t whatever you do put petrol / Gasoline anywhere near Polystyrene - totally deadly
                            Message 13 of 19 , Dec 26 10:58 AM
                              Allan & Chas,

                              Absolutely categorically NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO Don't whatever you do put
                              petrol / Gasoline anywhere near Polystyrene - totally deadly combination
                              both very highly flammable and totally noxious fumes - one spark and boom if
                              you haven't asphyxiated on the fumes already!!!! If you did survive you'd
                              end up with totally noxious environmental hazard with the gloop you'd
                              created....

                              If trying to get the sticky off anything once carefully manually disamantled
                              and scraped most of the foam off there are natural non-toxic, non flammable
                              ways to do it with special sticky stuff removers made from orange oil
                              extracts providing not allergic to oranges, olive oil also works but rather
                              greasy. Just was off in soapy water and rinse with clean water afterwards
                              and allow to dry.

                              The UK has almost completely banned the white polystyrene in the building
                              industry, still find some in packaging but not too much now,

                              Kind RegardZ

                              Melissa
                              UK



                              Chas, the white foam is made from petrol, (gasoline) I understand and
                              petrol melts it, (easily!). It could be dangerous in a confined space
                              obviously, so be careful of fumes and naked lights, but if you can organize
                              the safety angle, I'd try brushing a little petrol onto a test piece of
                              track and see what happens. If you could do it outside, I'd say that was a
                              lot safer. However, petrol won't melt the plastic track. Acetone will
                              though.

                              Luck

                              Allan

                              Allan Wright, (Norfolk, UK)

                              >>I will welcome any ideas...oh, well, if all else fails, this has all been
                              good practice for my
                              second Z layout. Have the fun is building the layout, right?<<

                              Chas.<<


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Allan
                              Hi Melissa, ... petrol / Gasoline anywhere near Polystyrene - totally deadly combination both very highly flammable and totally noxious fumes - one spark and
                              Message 14 of 19 , Dec 26 1:16 PM
                                Hi Melissa,



                                >> Absolutely categorically NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO Don't whatever you do put
                                petrol / Gasoline anywhere near Polystyrene - totally deadly combination
                                both very highly flammable and totally noxious fumes - one spark and boom if
                                you haven't asphyxiated on the fumes already!!!! <<



                                Which is why I said do it outside, Melissa - it can be dangerous, yes, and
                                care must be taken. So can many other things that we use in modeling too
                                though, such as Evo-stick contact adhesive, cellulose thinners, acetone
                                based nail varnish remover, etc. Even bleach can be dangerous in the toilet
                                bowl. I did say that great care has to be taken.



                                >>If you did survive you'd end up with totally noxious environmental hazard
                                with the gloop you'd
                                created....<<



                                Interestingly, I've seen it done many times though in professional scenic
                                property makers in film studios and years ago actually worked on a dungeon
                                scene where they made the walls out of polystyrene sheets and sprayed them
                                with a petrol mix to create 'stone slabs' and there wasn't any gloop that
                                you mention - nothing that couldn't be neutralized with liquid soap and
                                water anyway. The petrol mix just ate the polystyrene sheet in tiny patches
                                that's all. It looked very realistic when painted too.



                                >> If trying to get the sticky off anything once carefully manually
                                disamantled <<



                                This as I understood it is Chas' problem - getting it dismantled without
                                damage so the track could be used again.



                                >>and scraped most of the foam off there are natural non-toxic, non
                                flammable
                                ways to do it with special sticky stuff removers made from orange oil
                                extracts providing not allergic to oranges, olive oil also works but rather
                                greasy.<<



                                I haven't seen anyone else mention these, but it's certainly worth a go.
                                I'll carry out some experiments with the olive oil, but I'd like to see it
                                move dried on white glue - even cellulose thinners didn't move it when I
                                wanted it to. It just stayed like it was.



                                >> Just was off in soapy water and rinse with clean water afterwards
                                and allow to dry.<<



                                Ok, I'll try it and get back to you. .



                                >>The UK has almost completely banned the white polystyrene in the building
                                industry, still find some in packaging but not too much now,<<



                                It is recommended that the high density foam is used in the loft in the
                                rafter voids rather than the cheaper stuff used for wall insulation. It
                                isn't banned though as far as I know. I hope it isn't anyway because they
                                are using it right now in my house and that is supervised by the building
                                inspector! The reason they don't recommend the low density stuff is simply
                                because of its low U value compared with the high density stuff.



                                Certainly, we are both agreed though that petrol can be dangerous stuff,
                                yes. But garages wash parts in it sometimes and cellulose paint and
                                thinners is sprayed about too at times - look at the spray paint tins sold
                                in Halfords for example. The sprayers tell me that the newer water based
                                paints are useless in automotive work so where they go when the cellulose
                                paints are outlawed, I don't know.



                                I'll certainly try the methods you suggest though and I'll let you know how
                                I get on.



                                A Happy New Year to everyone,

                                Allan

                                Alan Wright, (Norfolk, UK)._

                                .







                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Loren
                                I think Charle s best bet will be to take a deep breath and dismantle the layout, and put it on the right base. I ll leave you chemists to decide the best way
                                Message 15 of 19 , Dec 26 1:26 PM
                                  I think Charle's best bet will be to take a deep breath and dismantle the
                                  layout, and put it on the right base.
                                  I'll leave you chemists to decide the best way to get the track off the
                                  existing base, but then Charles needs to do it the right way and he won't be
                                  sorry.

                                  Charles, if you didn't live up there in snow country, I'd say to come over
                                  and we'd whip you out the base you need.

                                  I'm building one for Joe this week.....you guys aren't going to believe what
                                  Joe is up to. Secret for now, but when you see the completed project you're
                                  going to fall over. He's here now stinking the place up on our
                                  laser......but he's having fun.

                                  Loren

                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "Allan" <allan@...>
                                  To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 1:16 PM
                                  Subject: RE: [Z_Scale] Re: Warping white foam


                                  > Hi Melissa,
                                  <snip>
                                • ckuttner
                                  Again, my thanks to all and sundry for the useful (if a bit late!) advice. While the foam seems to be behaving itself now that it s glued down to plywood, I
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Dec 26 3:21 PM
                                    Again, my thanks to all and sundry for the useful (if a bit late!) advice.

                                    While the foam seems to be behaving itself now that it's glued down to plywood, I have
                                    concerns of further upheavals, so at some point (when the snow melts here) I will need to
                                    go get some more solid foam. Or I may steal the pink foam (2'x8') that remains of my HO
                                    equipment are on, originally destined as a nice shelf layout using that HO stuff. Oh, the
                                    things I could do with 2' x 8' instead of 2' x 4'....where'd I put my track plans book?

                                    As to removing the crud from the old roadbed, etc.: in reality, Zthek roadbed and MT flex
                                    track are not that expensive. The biggest issue will be planning the curves, soldering the
                                    track together, etc. So I might just replace the track and chalk this up to experience.

                                    I'm just stubborn enough that I might wait until I've convinced myself that the white foam
                                    isn't going to keep its New Year resolution to behave properly, but I realize it is likely to
                                    fall back into its bad habits. But if it remained my "old" layout, and I built that new, big
                                    one, I could have my stale cake and my fresh cake, too.

                                    There was the time I was experimenting with a graphics board for my old computer. I
                                    modified a power supply, and blew up all 64K of memory in my computer. I bought an
                                    unpopulated board and rebuilt the computer. My wife made comments, and I told her it
                                    was all cheaper than a correspondence course in electronics...

                                    cheers & my thanks for this support group!

                                    chas
                                    Charles Kuttner, MD
                                    Portland, Oregon, USA
                                    http://www.kuttner.name

                                    Otherwise known as:
                                    Col. Cornelius Kuttner
                                    Proprietor, psychopathist and microferroequinologist, Oakville & Poorfarm RR
                                  • Don A
                                    I just received my January-February 2009 N SCALE RAILROADING. Take a look at a detailed article on pink foam installation; glues to use and the whole 9 yards
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Dec 30 12:34 PM
                                      I just received my January-February 2009 N SCALE RAILROADING. Take a
                                      look at a detailed article on pink foam installation; glues to use and
                                      the whole 9 yards of construction. The magazine is published a little
                                      north of your backyard, so you can probably easily obtain a copy.

                                      ...don



                                      --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "ckuttner" <ckuttner@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I want to share the story of the seismic disaster occurring on the
                                      Oakville & Poorfarm RR.
                                      >
                                      > I built my layout on 1.5" white foam, 2 feet by 4 feet. I've been in
                                      the process of putting on
                                      > scenery, and have noticed the track is coming up in various places,
                                      ranging from the track
                                      > pulling itself off my Zthek roadbed, but at more points with the
                                      tracks popping out of the
                                      > ties.
                                      >
                                      > I finally realize what's happening: the foam is warping, the ends
                                      going up relative to the
                                      > middle.
                                      >
                                      > I am in the process of trying to glue down the foam to plywood. I
                                      decided to try Gorilla
                                      > Glue, and it worked for awhile...until it starting popping apart
                                      after I removed weights
                                      > after the recommended two hours' curing time. I'm trying again with
                                      this and will leave the
                                      > weights on a lot longer.
                                      >
                                      > Does this mean that white foam is a bad idea? Does this have
                                      something to do with the
                                      > cold weather--basement is heated, but it's down to about 60 degrees F.
                                      >
                                      > I really like this layout and don't want to have to trash it. But
                                      would blue foam have been
                                      > more stable?
                                      >
                                      > Thanks in advance,
                                      >
                                      > chas
                                      >
                                      > Charles Kuttner, MD
                                      > Portland, Oregon, USA
                                      > http://www.kuttner.name
                                      >
                                      > Otherwise known as:
                                      > Col. Cornelius Kuttner
                                      > Proprietor, psychopathist and microferroequinologist, Oakville &
                                      Poorfarm RR
                                      >
                                    • Don A
                                      Try PO Box 77296, Seattle, Washington 98177. POSSIBLE phone is 206-364-1295 Back Issues are $5.95 each plus $2.00/order shipping. A 12 Issue Subscription
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Dec 30 4:05 PM
                                        Try PO Box 77296, Seattle, Washington 98177. POSSIBLE phone is
                                        206-364-1295 "Back Issues" are $5.95 each plus $2.00/order shipping.
                                        A 12 Issue Subscription is $30.00/year for 6 issues. Every issue is
                                        crammed full with color photos and LOTS of "How to..." articles. For
                                        instance Rob is looking for articles on Yards - You should see the
                                        yard that is covered in this Jan-Feb issue. I think I can count AT
                                        LEAST 35 tracks!!

                                        BTW there is also an N SCALE Magazine which is similar and also all
                                        color. A few months ago, they published two views of Z Scale from the
                                        Louisville National N Scale Convention - one of which was Mr Dave's
                                        big layout.

                                        I subscribe to both and they are well worth the cost.

                                        ...don


                                        --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Don A" <zbarr474@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > I just received my January-February 2009 N SCALE RAILROADING. Take a
                                        > look at a detailed article on pink foam installation; glues to use and
                                        > the whole 9 yards of construction. The magazine is published a little
                                        > north of your backyard, so you can probably easily obtain a copy.
                                        >
                                        > ...don
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "ckuttner" <ckuttner@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > I want to share the story of the seismic disaster occurring on the
                                        > Oakville & Poorfarm RR.
                                        > >
                                        > > I built my layout on 1.5" white foam, 2 feet by 4 feet. I've been in
                                        > the process of putting on
                                        > > scenery, and have noticed the track is coming up in various places,
                                        > ranging from the track
                                        > > pulling itself off my Zthek roadbed, but at more points with the
                                        > tracks popping out of the
                                        > > ties.
                                        > >
                                        > > I finally realize what's happening: the foam is warping, the ends
                                        > going up relative to the
                                        > > middle.
                                        > >
                                        > > I am in the process of trying to glue down the foam to plywood. I
                                        > decided to try Gorilla
                                        > > Glue, and it worked for awhile...until it starting popping apart
                                        > after I removed weights
                                        > > after the recommended two hours' curing time. I'm trying again with
                                        > this and will leave the
                                        > > weights on a lot longer.
                                        > >
                                        > > Does this mean that white foam is a bad idea? Does this have
                                        > something to do with the
                                        > > cold weather--basement is heated, but it's down to about 60
                                        degrees F.
                                        > >
                                        > > I really like this layout and don't want to have to trash it. But
                                        > would blue foam have been
                                        > > more stable?
                                        > >
                                        > > Thanks in advance,
                                        > >
                                        > > chas
                                        > >
                                        > > Charles Kuttner, MD
                                        > > Portland, Oregon, USA
                                        > > http://www.kuttner.name
                                        > >
                                        > > Otherwise known as:
                                        > > Col. Cornelius Kuttner
                                        > > Proprietor, psychopathist and microferroequinologist, Oakville &
                                        > Poorfarm RR
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • MASALOWE@aol.com
                                        Don, thank you so much for the information. I will take your advice and subscribe. I appreciate your help on this! Thank you. -Scott- ... From: Don A
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Dec 31 8:08 AM
                                          Don, thank you so much for the information. I will take your advice and subscribe. I appreciate your help on this! Thank you. -Scott-


                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: Don A <zbarr474@...>
                                          To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 5:05 pm
                                          Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: Warping white foam






                                          Try PO Box 77296, Seattle, Washington 98177. POSSIBLE phone is
                                          206-364-1295 "Back Issues" are $5.95 each plus $2.00/order shipping.
                                          A 12 Issue Subscription is $30.00/year for 6 issues. Every issue is
                                          crammed full with color photos and LOTS of "How to..." articles. For
                                          instance Rob is looking for articles on Yards - You should see the
                                          yard that is covered in this Jan-Feb issue. I think I can count AT
                                          LEAST 35 tracks!!

                                          BTW there is also an N SCALE Magazine which is similar and also all
                                          color. A few months ago, they published two views of Z Scale from the
                                          Louisville National N Scale Convention - one of which was Mr Dave's
                                          big layout.

                                          I subscribe to both and they are well worth the cost.

                                          ...don

                                          --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Don A" <zbarr474@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > I just received my January-February 2009 N SCALE RAILROADING. Take a
                                          > look at a detailed article on pink foam installation; glues to use and
                                          > the whole 9 yards of construction. The magazine is published a little
                                          > north of your backyard, so you can probably easily obtain a copy.
                                          >
                                          > ...don
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "ckuttner" <ckuttner@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > I want to share the story of the seismic disaster occurring on the
                                          > Oakville & Poorfarm RR.
                                          > >
                                          > > I built my layout on 1.5" white foam, 2 feet by 4 feet. I've been in
                                          > the process of putting on
                                          > > scenery, and have noticed the track is coming up in various places,
                                          > ranging from the track
                                          > > pulling itself off my Zthek roadbed, but at more points with the
                                          > tracks popping out of the
                                          > > ties.
                                          > >
                                          > > I finally realize what's happening: the foam is warping, the ends
                                          > going up relative to the
                                          > > middle.
                                          > >
                                          > > I am in the process of trying to glue down the foam to plywood. I
                                          > decided to try Gorilla
                                          > > Glue, and it worked for awhile...until it starting popping apart
                                          > after I removed weights
                                          > > after the recommended two hours' curing time. I'm trying again with
                                          > this and will leave the
                                          > > weights on a lot longer.
                                          > >
                                          > > Does this mean that white foam is a bad idea? Does this have
                                          > something to do with the
                                          > > cold weather--basement is heated, but it's down to about 60
                                          degrees F.
                                          > >
                                          > > I really like this layout and don't want to have to trash it. But
                                          > would blue foam have been
                                          > > more stable?
                                          > >
                                          > > Thanks in advance,
                                          > >
                                          > > chas
                                          > >
                                          > > Charles Kuttner, MD
                                          > > Portland, Oregon, USA
                                          > > http://www.kuttner.name
                                          > >
                                          > > Otherwise known as:
                                          > > Col. Cornelius Kuttner
                                          > > Proprietor, psychopathist and microferroequinologist, Oakville &
                                          > Poorfarm RR
                                          > >
                                          >






                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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