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Re: Noch and the newcomer

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  • skye.chris
    Hi Steve. ... year) and pretty new to model railroading and I think I have just gotten myself into a jam (being the overly ambitious guy that I am) by going
    Message 1 of 11 , Dec 2, 2008
      Hi Steve.

      --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Steve Piwnica <stevepiw@...> wrote:
      > Hello everyone - I'm basically new to z scale (dormant for the last
      year) and pretty new to model railroading and I think I have just
      gotten myself into a jam (being the overly ambitious guy that I am) by
      going out and buying the Noch Schwarzwald layout.�

      That's some layout! I assume that, Noch being a German company, that
      it is geared towards German track. However, MTL used the same geometry
      so, unless Noch specify the 145mm rad you should be OK.

      > So I begin to assemble the ramps and bridges and I notice the grade
      seems pretty steep, rising about 2 inches over 40 inches in one place
      and even more in another.� So will this be too much?� I read
      everywhere that 3% is about the maximum.� Or maybe I'll just be
      limited to short trains?

      Marklin's own ramps are 4%. As mine is on a 145mm curve it is the
      worst possible case and I happily pushed a 9 axle train up it with a
      BR72 (1'C tank loco).

      > �
      > Plus now I'm seeing the bridges and tunnels are for N scale and the
      Marklin track plan costs $1,500!� Is this kind of cost normal for z
      scale?� Is MTL track cheaper and, if so, is MTL track and�Marklin
      track compatible?

      There is more to it than just connecting to two together, which I
      cannot confirm. Marklin (who started the Z scale off in '72) and Micro
      Trains are incompatible when it comes to couplings and the uncouplers
      are unique to the make. So if you have MT stock, you need to go with
      MT and vice-versa.

      Also, The N scale geometry is slightly different so the trackbed will
      be wider than necessary, and from what you say, these are ally N scale
      landscapes which just happen to work with Z.

      $1500 seems a bit steep to me. However, you will probably be able to
      shop around for the cheapest supplier. And don't forget eBay, but make
      sure that what you buy from there is new or near new. That is where I
      got all my track and a small prportion of it has turned oput to ne
      pretty naff.

      > What have I done?

      I think you know by now!!!!!!

      > Thanks much,
      > Steve Piwnica
      > Orange County, CA
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      Good luck and best wishes,
      Chris from Skye.
    • John Duino
      I guess I ll jump into this... For modules, large operations (long trains), etc, 2% is what we strive for, 3% in a pinch. It just means you won t be able to
      Message 2 of 11 , Dec 2, 2008
        I guess I'll jump into this...

        For modules, large operations (long trains), etc, 2% is what we strive
        for, 3% in a pinch. It just means you won't be able to pull as many cars.
        2 over 40 is 5%, fairly steep, but you'll still be able to pull 5-10 cars,
        depending upon which loco you use.

        Wow, that's one of the big Noch's. Yes, some of the Noch's are used for
        both N & Z, so I assume things like bridges, etc, are terribly oversized
        for Z.

        There is a lot of track on there and A LOT of switches (21)...that right
        there is almost half of your cost. Trust in EBay to lower those costs a
        bit. Most of us build using MTL flex and don't do switch yards, so that
        keeps that cost down. I built a small Noch and had the same OMG moment
        when I added up the track prices.

        Whereabouts in Orange County are you? I'm in Buena Park, and we have
        several others scattered about (Long Beach, Lake Forest, Burbank, RPV,
        Santa Monica, and more). There's another Yahoo group called ZoCal that we
        belong to, mostly dealing with the modules and local train shows. There
        are two coming up that we'll be at: this coming weekend in Ventura, and
        the following weekend in Del Mar. If/when we do get together it's usually
        at my house for work/food/BS.

        John

        >
        > Hello everyone - I'm basically new to z scale (dormant for the last year)
        > and pretty new to model railroading and I think I have just gotten myself
        > into a jam (being the overly ambitious guy that I am) by going out and
        > buying the Noch Schwarzwald layout. So I begin to assemble the ramps and
        > bridges and I notice the grade seems pretty steep, rising about 2 inches
        > over 40 inches in one place and even more in another. So will this be too
        > much? I read everywhere that 3% is about the maximum. Or maybe I'll just
        > be limited to short trains?
        >
        > Plus now I'm seeing the bridges and tunnels are for N scale and the
        > Marklin track plan costs $1,500! Is this kind of cost normal for z
        > scale? Is MTL track cheaper and, if so, is MTL track and Marklin track
        > compatible?
        >
        > What have I done?
        > Thanks much,
        > Steve Piwnica
        > Orange County, CA
      • Steve Piwnica
        Thanks, John.  Seems I should for now at least forget the switch yard and maybe do two out of the four lines to get started.  I am in Corona del Mar and work
        Message 3 of 11 , Dec 2, 2008
          Thanks, John.  Seems I should for now at least forget the switch yard and maybe do two out of the four lines to get started.  I am in Corona del Mar and work in Irvine, so maybe I can meet the group at some point.  Can you give me more info on the show in Del Mar?
           
          Steve

          --- On Tue, 12/2/08, John Duino <jduino@...> wrote:

          From: John Duino <jduino@...>
          Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Noch and the newcomer
          To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Tuesday, December 2, 2008, 1:17 PM






          I guess I'll jump into this...

          For modules, large operations (long trains), etc, 2% is what we strive
          for, 3% in a pinch. It just means you won't be able to pull as many cars.
          2 over 40 is 5%, fairly steep, but you'll still be able to pull 5-10 cars,
          depending upon which loco you use.

          Wow, that's one of the big Noch's. Yes, some of the Noch's are used for
          both N & Z, so I assume things like bridges, etc, are terribly oversized
          for Z.

          There is a lot of track on there and A LOT of switches (21)...that right
          there is almost half of your cost. Trust in EBay to lower those costs a
          bit. Most of us build using MTL flex and don't do switch yards, so that
          keeps that cost down. I built a small Noch and had the same OMG moment
          when I added up the track prices.

          Whereabouts in Orange County are you? I'm in Buena Park, and we have
          several others scattered about (Long Beach, Lake Forest, Burbank, RPV,
          Santa Monica, and more). There's another Yahoo group called ZoCal that we
          belong to, mostly dealing with the modules and local train shows. There
          are two coming up that we'll be at: this coming weekend in Ventura, and
          the following weekend in Del Mar. If/when we do get together it's usually
          at my house for work/food/BS.

          John

          >
          > Hello everyone - I'm basically new to z scale (dormant for the last year)
          > and pretty new to model railroading and I think I have just gotten myself
          > into a jam (being the overly ambitious guy that I am) by going out and
          > buying the Noch Schwarzwald layout. So I begin to assemble the ramps and
          > bridges and I notice the grade seems pretty steep, rising about 2 inches
          > over 40 inches in one place and even more in another. So will this be too
          > much? I read everywhere that 3% is about the maximum. Or maybe I'll just
          > be limited to short trains?
          >
          > Plus now I'm seeing the bridges and tunnels are for N scale and the
          > Marklin track plan costs $1,500! Is this kind of cost normal for z
          > scale? Is MTL track cheaper and, if so, is MTL track and Marklin track
          > compatible?
          >
          > What have I done?
          > Thanks much,
          > Steve Piwnica
          > Orange County, CA


















          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Uwe Liermann
          Hello Steve, ... well, that seems to be one of the big ones... ;-) ... I take it that you have the track list for the layout available. But I don t know if
          Message 4 of 11 , Dec 2, 2008
            Hello Steve,

            > Noch Schwarzwald layout.

            well, that seems to be one of the big ones... ;-)

            > I notice the grade seems pretty steep, rising about 2 inches over 40
            > inches in one place and even more in another.  So will this be too
            > much?

            I take it that you have the track list for the layout available. But I
            don't know if you got an English one. I looked up the German PDF file
            for the layout:

            http://www.noch.de/pictures/PDFs/Gleisplaene/61800.pdf

            on page two you can find the statement from Noch about the use of
            Z-scale trains on those grades. There is written that you can run the
            mountain line with short trains up to 8 axles with out a problem. If
            you have cars with trucks and the train has more then 8 axles (which
            means more then two cars) you will need two engines. If you have only
            2 axle cars, then you will need two engines if you have 12 axles in
            your train.
             
            > Plus now I'm seeing the bridges and tunnels are for N scale

            It is written that you should use the mentioned N-scale bridges also
            for Z-scale. Then those bridges would be to wide for my liking. Maybe
            with some kitbashing of Z-scale bridges you can get a better picture.

            It is also stated that the portals are designed for N-scale. But I
            think that you can use Z-scale portals for the tunnels with some
            adaptive work too.

            > and the Marklin track plan costs $1,500!  Is this kind of cost
            > normal for z scale?

            I haven't calculated the track list for costs, but I see two ways to
            cut at least some of the costs. First you can get track often for less
            money on E-Bay or other second hand places.

            Then you can use flex track for much of the layout. I've seen 17
            sections 8592. This is a length adjustable section from 100 to 120 mm.
            If you go the flex track way at least for the straight parts you can
            save a lot of money.

            > Is MTL track cheaper and, if so, is MTL track and Marklin track
            > compatible?

            MTL roadbed track is cheaper as Maerklin track, and it is compatible
            in footprint to the Maerklin sections as far as the sections are
            available. Unfortunately a lot of straight sections are not available
            yet from MTL.

            Regarding the curves I see that there is no 8510 145mm radii section
            in the track plan. The 145mm radii is not available from MTL. Also not
            available (but it will come I'm sure) is the 8531 220mm radii 30°
            section.

            MTL and Maerklin track section can be connected, but it needs some
            adjusting since the rail height (code) is different. But this can be
            done.

            Under closer inspection of the track plan I would go with flex track
            anyway. This because I see that at some places the curves aren't fully
            perfect with those sectional tracks. If you look at the left side of
            the layout you see at the main level (the double track line) in the
            upper left that there is placed a 8520 a 8521 and a 8591 curve for a
            90° curve. But those sections only goes to 88°. The same goes for the
            upper right corner.

            8520 / 8530 45°
            8521 / 8531 30°
            8591 13°

            In the lower left the curve is made from 4 x 8591 and 1 x 852(3)1 this
            calculates to 82°. If you take the lower right hand corner it also
            goes to 4x 8591 and one 852(3)1.

            Together those curves calculate to 340° to the full circle...

            > What have I done?

            You got yourself a pretty interesting project...


            --
            GreetingZ
            Uwe
          • Steve Piwnica
            Thanks for your response, Chris.  Seems Schwarzwald is a little over the top for my first z layout (actually, I built the standard Marklin oval, but not much
            Message 5 of 11 , Dec 2, 2008
              Thanks for your response, Chris.  Seems Schwarzwald is a little over the top for my first z layout (actually, I built the standard Marklin oval, but not much to go wrong there).  I'll be on ebay tonight looking around!
              Steve

              --- On Tue, 12/2/08, skye.chris <cmanvell@...> wrote:

              From: skye.chris <cmanvell@...>
              Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: Noch and the newcomer
              To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Tuesday, December 2, 2008, 12:06 PM






              Hi Steve.

              --- In z_scale@yahoogroups .com, Steve Piwnica <stevepiw@.. .> wrote:
              > Hello everyone - I'm basically new to z scale (dormant for the last
              year) and pretty new to model railroading and I think I have just
              gotten myself into a jam (being the overly ambitious guy that I am) by
              going out and buying the Noch Schwarzwald layout.�

              That's some layout! I assume that, Noch being a German company, that
              it is geared towards German track. However, MTL used the same geometry
              so, unless Noch specify the 145mm rad you should be OK.

              > So I begin to assemble the ramps and bridges and I notice the grade
              seems pretty steep, rising about 2 inches over 40 inches in one place
              and even more in another.� So will this be too much?� I read
              everywhere that 3% is about the maximum.� Or maybe I'll just be
              limited to short trains?

              Marklin's own ramps are 4%. As mine is on a 145mm curve it is the
              worst possible case and I happily pushed a 9 axle train up it with a
              BR72 (1'C tank loco).

              > �
              > Plus now I'm seeing the bridges and tunnels are for N scale and the
              Marklin track plan costs $1,500!� Is this kind of cost normal for z
              scale?� Is MTL track cheaper and, if so, is MTL track and�Marklin
              track compatible?

              There is more to it than just connecting to two together, which I
              cannot confirm. Marklin (who started the Z scale off in '72) and Micro
              Trains are incompatible when it comes to couplings and the uncouplers
              are unique to the make. So if you have MT stock, you need to go with
              MT and vice-versa.

              Also, The N scale geometry is slightly different so the trackbed will
              be wider than necessary, and from what you say, these are ally N scale
              landscapes which just happen to work with Z.

              $1500 seems a bit steep to me. However, you will probably be able to
              shop around for the cheapest supplier. And don't forget eBay, but make
              sure that what you buy from there is new or near new. That is where I
              got all my track and a small prportion of it has turned oput to ne
              pretty naff.

              > What have I done?

              I think you know by now!!!!!!

              > Thanks much,
              > Steve Piwnica
              > Orange County, CA
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              Good luck and best wishes,
              Chris from Skye.


















              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • John Duino
              Doesn t look like much is on their web site, but this is a Great Train Expo show: http://www.trainexpoinc.com/schedule.html General page:
              Message 6 of 11 , Dec 2, 2008
                Doesn't look like much is on their web site, but this is a Great Train
                Expo show:

                http://www.trainexpoinc.com/schedule.html

                General page:
                http://www.trainexpoinc.com

                We'll be there all weekend. We don't know the layout yet of the show, but
                last year we were in the back corner. Please do come down and introduce
                yourself! If you have anything you'd like to run just bring it along!

                John

                > Thanks, John. Seems I should for now at least forget the switch yard and
                > maybe do two out of the four lines to get started. I am in Corona del Mar
                > and work in Irvine, so maybe I can meet the group at some point. Can you
                > give me more info on the show in Del Mar?
                >
                > Steve
                >
              • Chris Manvell
                Hi Steve. ... At least you ve got a good baseboard; I started with just 6 x 2 feet into which I have managed to pack about 30m of track onto it (according to
                Message 7 of 11 , Dec 2, 2008
                  Hi Steve.

                  2008/12/3 Steve Piwnica <stevepiw@...>:
                  > Thanks for your response, Chris. Seems Schwarzwald is a little over the top
                  > for my first z layout (actually, I built the standard Marklin oval, but not
                  > much to go wrong there). I'll be on ebay tonight looking around!
                  > Steve

                  At least you've got a good baseboard; I started with just 6 x 2 feet
                  into which I have managed to pack about 30m of track onto it
                  (according to my rail cad program).

                  Anyway, good luck with your layout. You'll have a great time building it.

                  NB Check every rail joint before you anchor the track. It is all to
                  easy to miss the odd fishplate (joiner) that manages to slip under the
                  next rail. I speak from bitter experience.

                  All the best,
                  Chris.

                  --
                  Chris Manvell
                  E: chris@..., T: 01471 822317, M: 078151 89991
                  W: http://trains.manvell.org.uk, http://family.manvell.org.uk,
                  http://skye.manvell.org.uk, http://bahai-faith.manvell.org.uk.
                • Steve Piwnica
                  Uwe - that is a tremendous amount of info in one e-mail. Much appreciated. (And I have had a heck of a time translating the German assembly instructions.
                  Message 8 of 11 , Dec 2, 2008
                    Uwe - that is a tremendous amount of info in one e-mail. Much appreciated. (And I have had a heck of a time translating the German assembly instructions. You've decoded a lot for me. thanks again.)
                    Steve


                    --- On Tue, 12/2/08, Uwe Liermann <maillist@...> wrote:

                    > From: Uwe Liermann <maillist@...>
                    > Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Noch and the newcomer
                    > To: "Steve Piwnica" <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Date: Tuesday, December 2, 2008, 2:53 PM
                    > Hello Steve,
                    >
                    > > Noch Schwarzwald layout.
                    >
                    > well, that seems to be one of the big ones... ;-)
                    >
                    > > I notice the grade seems pretty steep, rising about 2
                    > inches over 40
                    > > inches in one place and even more in another.  So
                    > will this be too
                    > > much?
                    >
                    > I take it that you have the track list for the layout
                    > available. But I
                    > don't know if you got an English one. I looked up the
                    > German PDF file
                    > for the layout:
                    >
                    > http://www.noch.de/pictures/PDFs/Gleisplaene/61800.pdf
                    >
                    > on page two you can find the statement from Noch about the
                    > use of
                    > Z-scale trains on those grades. There is written that you
                    > can run the
                    > mountain line with short trains up to 8 axles with out a
                    > problem. If
                    > you have cars with trucks and the train has more then 8
                    > axles (which
                    > means more then two cars) you will need two engines. If you
                    > have only
                    > 2 axle cars, then you will need two engines if you have 12
                    > axles in
                    > your train.
                    >  
                    > > Plus now I'm seeing the bridges and tunnels are
                    > for N scale
                    >
                    > It is written that you should use the mentioned N-scale
                    > bridges also
                    > for Z-scale. Then those bridges would be to wide for my
                    > liking. Maybe
                    > with some kitbashing of Z-scale bridges you can get a
                    > better picture.
                    >
                    > It is also stated that the portals are designed for
                    > N-scale. But I
                    > think that you can use Z-scale portals for the tunnels with
                    > some
                    > adaptive work too.
                    >
                    > > and the Marklin track plan costs $1,500!  Is this
                    > kind of cost
                    > > normal for z scale?
                    >
                    > I haven't calculated the track list for costs, but I
                    > see two ways to
                    > cut at least some of the costs. First you can get track
                    > often for less
                    > money on E-Bay or other second hand places.
                    >
                    > Then you can use flex track for much of the layout.
                    > I've seen 17
                    > sections 8592. This is a length adjustable section from 100
                    > to 120 mm.
                    > If you go the flex track way at least for the straight
                    > parts you can
                    > save a lot of money.
                    >
                    > > Is MTL track cheaper and, if so, is MTL track
                    > and Marklin track
                    > > compatible?
                    >
                    > MTL roadbed track is cheaper as Maerklin track, and it is
                    > compatible
                    > in footprint to the Maerklin sections as far as the
                    > sections are
                    > available. Unfortunately a lot of straight sections are not
                    > available
                    > yet from MTL.
                    >
                    > Regarding the curves I see that there is no 8510 145mm
                    > radii section
                    > in the track plan. The 145mm radii is not available from
                    > MTL. Also not
                    > available (but it will come I'm sure) is the 8531 220mm
                    > radii 30°
                    > section.
                    >
                    > MTL and Maerklin track section can be connected, but it
                    > needs some
                    > adjusting since the rail height (code) is different. But
                    > this can be
                    > done.
                    >
                    > Under closer inspection of the track plan I would go with
                    > flex track
                    > anyway. This because I see that at some places the curves
                    > aren't fully
                    > perfect with those sectional tracks. If you look at the
                    > left side of
                    > the layout you see at the main level (the double track
                    > line) in the
                    > upper left that there is placed a 8520 a 8521 and a 8591
                    > curve for a
                    > 90° curve. But those sections only goes to 88°. The same
                    > goes for the
                    > upper right corner.
                    >
                    > 8520 / 8530 45°
                    > 8521 / 8531 30°
                    > 8591 13°
                    >
                    > In the lower left the curve is made from 4 x 8591 and 1 x
                    > 852(3)1 this
                    > calculates to 82°. If you take the lower right hand
                    > corner it also
                    > goes to 4x 8591 and one 852(3)1.
                    >
                    > Together those curves calculate to 340° to the full
                    > circle...
                    >
                    > > What have I done?
                    >
                    > You got yourself a pretty interesting project...
                    >
                    >
                    > --
                    > GreetingZ
                    > Uwe
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Z-scale: minimum siZe, MAXIMUM enjoyment!
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Todd Shoffeitt
                    Steve, I ll weigh in since I am building an even bigger layout for my first layout. Use MTL flex track wherever you can. Its easier to work with than Marklin
                    Message 9 of 11 , Dec 2, 2008
                      Steve,
                      I'll weigh in since I am building an even bigger layout for my first
                      layout. Use MTL flex track wherever you can. Its easier to work
                      with than Marklin track and it is less expensive. Also, use Atlas N
                      gauge code 55 rail joiners to join the flex. The MTL joiners are
                      pretty good, much better than the Marklin ones, but the bigger rail
                      joiners are more secure, easier to see and install, and really help
                      keep the ends of the flex track in gauge, even on curves. Also,
                      unless you are planning on gluing down the track, which I don't
                      recommend, at least at first until you get the track just the way you
                      want it, use Walthers Code 73/83 track nails to hold down the flex.
                      They are longer and larger than the Marklin track nails, and look
                      better in my opinion. Also, its nice to be able to shift around the
                      track a little bit while under construction, then you can glue it
                      down when everything fits and looks right.

                      I am using Marklin switches with MTL flex, and its working just
                      fine. As far as cash goes, Z is not for the faint of heart, but
                      here's a few things you could try as well.

                      One, use manual switches instead of remotes, especially in areas that
                      are easy to reach or won't be used as much. The Marklin manual
                      switches work well and are about half the prices.

                      Two, leave off some sidings, yards or passing tracks until you need
                      them. If its on a main line, put in a Marklin 8500 sectional track
                      in place of the switch, and when you are ready to put in the switch
                      for the siding or yard, cut the 8500 in half with the handy motor
                      tool, pull it out and install the switch. Make sure and leave enough
                      space without ties on the ends of the track on either side of the
                      8500 so you can use the sliding rail joiner trick when you install
                      the switch. This way you can build the thing in sections, get some
                      trains running and then add on as you want and can afford to.

                      Third, cut your own cork roadbed. The Itty Bitty lines is great
                      stuff, but its real expensive. Find some thin sheet cork that is
                      used to build cork message boards and cut your own strips of
                      roadbed. All the roadbed on my 15' x 5' foot layout cost me about
                      $24 at a local homecenter called Menards here in Chicago, but you may
                      need to try an arts and crafts or office supply store out in
                      California. Cut the strips 24mm wide for straighter sections and 12
                      wide and use two strips for curves. A 2 foot metal ruler and a good
                      exacto type with a sharp #11 blade will work fine for cutting.

                      Feel free to email me if you have any specific questions about this.
                      If you want to see pictures of what I'm doing, I just posted some pic
                      of my adventure in Z Central Station under the "Building the
                      Trinimosa Branch" gallery. I've built layouts in N and G scales, and
                      Z is not really that much different, but there are some tricks that
                      can make life easier.

                      Good luck, Todd
                    • Don A
                      Ouch, that is a steep grade of 5%. Most of us stick to about 2%. If your consists are real short, the 5% MAY work, depending on the engine and cars. If you
                      Message 10 of 11 , Dec 4, 2008
                        Ouch, that is a steep grade of 5%. Most of us stick to about 2%. If
                        your consists are real short, the 5% MAY work, depending on the engine
                        and cars. If you use MTL flextrack, you should be able to cut your
                        track costs by about 60% or a LOT more. As for scenery, use foam and
                        plaster cloth and hydrocal and resin rock castings and you should be
                        able to build a real fine layout for several hundred dollars [in
                        addition to the track etc]. If you have just a little ability you can
                        scratch build some real fine bridges from plastic from Plastruct or
                        Evergreen. I did that and also built one from foam and old business
                        cards. Cost for the business card one wasn't zero, but getting pretty
                        close. There are a number of Z Scalers in the Bay Area and also
                        toward San Diego who may be able to help you out. Try the yahoo group
                        ...BAZ_modules... for openers. I'm at the other end of the country
                        so can't help too much. ...don

                        --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Steve Piwnica <stevepiw@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Hello everyone - I'm basically new to z scale (dormant for the last
                        year) and pretty new to model railroading and I think I have just
                        gotten myself into a jam (being the overly ambitious guy that I am) by
                        going out and buying the Noch Schwarzwald layout.� So I begin to
                        assemble the ramps and bridges and I notice the grade seems pretty
                        steep, rising about 2 inches over 40 inches in one place and even more
                        in another.� So will this be too much?� I read everywhere that 3% is
                        about the maximum.� Or maybe I'll just be limited to short trains?
                        > �
                        > Plus now I'm seeing the bridges and tunnels are for N scale and the
                        Marklin track plan costs $1,500!� Is this kind of cost normal for z
                        scale?� Is MTL track cheaper and, if so, is MTL track and�Marklin
                        track compatible?
                        > �
                        > What have I done?
                        > Thanks much,
                        > Steve Piwnica
                        > Orange County, CA
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
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