Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Smoothest-Running Z Locomotive?

Expand Messages
  • Jeff BAZ-man
    Electrical contact will limit you from running slow, especially in curves. Maybe the MTL F7 with the wheel wipers AND a Guage Master to assure electrical
    Message 1 of 23 , May 27, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      Electrical contact will limit you from running slow, especially in
      curves. Maybe the MTL F7 with the wheel wipers AND a Guage Master to
      assure electrical contact. In any way, I think you will be a kid in
      a candy store for the first time when it does make it around the one
      and only time.

      http://ztrackcenter.com/electronics/product_images/1.jpg

      http://ztrackcenter.com/electronics/

      But if you want a loco to bash, the Marklin will be the cheapest (the
      US and Euro diesels versions are that same chassis). The MTL F7 is
      completely full of metal, as is a $400+ AZL. Even the MTL GP9 or
      GP35 also is nearly full of metal.

      Jeff
      SF Bay Area Z

      --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "elias1859" <brian.alters@...> wrote:
      >
      > Many thanks to everyone!
      >
      > WRT the various questions to me, I would like to know the smoothest-
      > running at the slow speed whether the locomotive is $100 or $400,
      and
      > it does not matter whether it is diesel or steam because I may
      remove
      > the housing altogether. I can certainly incorporate -- with help --

      > some form of DCC (which I've never used and know little about). I
      > now realize -- thanks to many great responses -- that I need to
      > articulate how slow I want the locomotive to move. (I never dreamed
      > they could creep.) Thus I have now determined that I would like
      the
      > locomotive to run as smoothly as possible at 0.5"/second on level
      > straightaways, around tight curves, and over switches for an hour
      at
      > a time. Is this possible?
      > Again I really appreciate all the wonderful responses. Thanks!
      > Brian
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "elias1859" <brian.alters@> wrote:
      > >
      > > At the slowest speeds possible, what Z locomotive is the
      smoothest-
      > > running?
      > >
      > > Thanks.
      > >
      > > Brian
      > >
      >
    • elias1859
      I apologize, I am now confused. Jeff stated I think you will be a kid in a candy store for the first time when it does make it around the one and only time.
      Message 2 of 23 , May 28, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        I apologize, I am now confused. Jeff stated "I think you will be a
        kid in a candy store for the first time when it does make it around
        the one and only time." Does that mean what I want to do is next to
        impossible or extremely difficult? Does that mean if it makes it
        around the track one time I am fortunate, and that will likely be a
        rare event? Is the speed of 0.5"/second unreasonably slow for smooth
        motion? I appreciate the help, I just want to make sure I'm
        understanding accurately. Many thanks!
        Brian










        --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff BAZ-man" <sjbazman49@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Electrical contact will limit you from running slow, especially in
        > curves. Maybe the MTL F7 with the wheel wipers AND a Guage Master
        to
        > assure electrical contact. In any way, I think you will be a kid
        in
        > a candy store for the first time when it does make it around the
        one
        > and only time.
        >
        > http://ztrackcenter.com/electronics/product_images/1.jpg
        >
        > http://ztrackcenter.com/electronics/
        >
        > But if you want a loco to bash, the Marklin will be the cheapest
        (the
        > US and Euro diesels versions are that same chassis). The MTL F7 is
        > completely full of metal, as is a $400+ AZL. Even the MTL GP9 or
        > GP35 also is nearly full of metal.
        >
        > Jeff
        > SF Bay Area Z
        >
        > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "elias1859" <brian.alters@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Many thanks to everyone!
        > >
        > > WRT the various questions to me, I would like to know the
        smoothest-
        > > running at the slow speed whether the locomotive is $100 or $400,
        > and
        > > it does not matter whether it is diesel or steam because I may
        > remove
        > > the housing altogether. I can certainly incorporate -- with
        help --
        >
        > > some form of DCC (which I've never used and know little about).
        I
        > > now realize -- thanks to many great responses -- that I need to
        > > articulate how slow I want the locomotive to move. (I never
        dreamed
        > > they could creep.) Thus I have now determined that I would like
        > the
        > > locomotive to run as smoothly as possible at 0.5"/second on level
        > > straightaways, around tight curves, and over switches for an hour
        > at
        > > a time. Is this possible?
        > > Again I really appreciate all the wonderful responses. Thanks!
        > > Brian
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "elias1859" <brian.alters@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > At the slowest speeds possible, what Z locomotive is the
        > smoothest-
        > > > running?
        > > >
        > > > Thanks.
        > > >
        > > > Brian
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • viktor_kovacs
        ... With clean track and a new marklin solid state dc pack, you can make a 8800 br89 creep that slow without extra circuits, just don t weather the rails on
        Message 3 of 23 , May 28, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "elias1859" <brian.alters@...> wrote:
          > I apologize, I am now confused. Jeff stated "I think you will be a
          > kid in a candy store for the first time when it does make it around
          > the one and only time." Does that mean what I want to do is next to
          > impossible or extremely difficult? Does that mean if it makes it
          > around the track one time I am fortunate, and that will likely be a
          > rare event? Is the speed of 0.5"/second unreasonably slow for smooth
          > motion? I appreciate the help, I just want to make sure I'm
          > understanding accurately. Many thanks!
          > Brian

          With clean track and a new marklin solid state dc pack,
          you can make a 8800 br89 creep that slow without extra circuits,
          just don't weather the rails on the tops and the _insides_.
          The slowest I got my 8800 with pure dc was 0.1 inch/second,
          but on switches you have to speed up to 1 inch/second without
          pwm.

          With a good chopped pwm pack (on-tristate-on instead of on-off-on)
          you can make it crawl without making the track and the wheels
          extra clean, and it really helps with the switches, where the
          locos tend to stall even when the contact is still there, due
          to the increased resitance of the rails. With marklin switches,
          the contact wipers tend to oxidise, so throwing the switch a
          couple of times back and forth helps too.

          If the standard track cleaners are too strong for the led lighting
          of a loco, the pwm driver chip can add short medium voltage spikes
          to the normal pwm output in case the feedback circuit detects a
          break in the circuit. I don't know a commercial example of this
          design but I made a prototype of this double voltage pwm driver,
          so it works. The same circuit can be used for constant lighting
          circuits, but it does heat the motors when used for a prolonged
          time.

          ps: Did you know, that marklin motors follow the motor design
          used in the first new york central bipolar s-motors in 1903?
          The only difference is that they used a gearless and rodless
          axle mounted design, while marklin uses gears because of size
          constraints. But the dc motor design is the same, including
          the rail based dc power distribution system and the option
          to switch to overhead caternary by flipping a switch. Caternary
          support was added to the s-motors because they tended to stall
          on larger switch blocks because of loss of contact.
        • elias1859
          Wow! I believe I understood everything Viktor wrote except for one thing: What does chopped mean in chopped pwm pack ? Thanks! Brian ... a ... around ... to
          Message 4 of 23 , May 28, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Wow! I believe I understood everything Viktor wrote except for one
            thing: What does "chopped" mean in "chopped pwm pack"?
            Thanks!
            Brian




            --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "viktor_kovacs" <viktor_kovacs@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "elias1859" <brian.alters@> wrote:
            > > I apologize, I am now confused. Jeff stated "I think you will be
            a
            > > kid in a candy store for the first time when it does make it
            around
            > > the one and only time." Does that mean what I want to do is next
            to
            > > impossible or extremely difficult? Does that mean if it makes it
            > > around the track one time I am fortunate, and that will likely be
            a
            > > rare event? Is the speed of 0.5"/second unreasonably slow for
            smooth
            > > motion? I appreciate the help, I just want to make sure I'm
            > > understanding accurately. Many thanks!
            > > Brian
            >
            > With clean track and a new marklin solid state dc pack,
            > you can make a 8800 br89 creep that slow without extra circuits,
            > just don't weather the rails on the tops and the _insides_.
            > The slowest I got my 8800 with pure dc was 0.1 inch/second,
            > but on switches you have to speed up to 1 inch/second without
            > pwm.
            >
            > With a good chopped pwm pack (on-tristate-on instead of on-off-on)
            > you can make it crawl without making the track and the wheels
            > extra clean, and it really helps with the switches, where the
            > locos tend to stall even when the contact is still there, due
            > to the increased resitance of the rails. With marklin switches,
            > the contact wipers tend to oxidise, so throwing the switch a
            > couple of times back and forth helps too.
            >
            > If the standard track cleaners are too strong for the led lighting
            > of a loco, the pwm driver chip can add short medium voltage spikes
            > to the normal pwm output in case the feedback circuit detects a
            > break in the circuit. I don't know a commercial example of this
            > design but I made a prototype of this double voltage pwm driver,
            > so it works. The same circuit can be used for constant lighting
            > circuits, but it does heat the motors when used for a prolonged
            > time.
            >
            > ps: Did you know, that marklin motors follow the motor design
            > used in the first new york central bipolar s-motors in 1903?
            > The only difference is that they used a gearless and rodless
            > axle mounted design, while marklin uses gears because of size
            > constraints. But the dc motor design is the same, including
            > the rail based dc power distribution system and the option
            > to switch to overhead caternary by flipping a switch. Caternary
            > support was added to the s-motors because they tended to stall
            > on larger switch blocks because of loss of contact.
            >
          • Glen Chenier
            ... Thus I have now determined that I would like the ... at ... 0.5 inches per second is 6.25 scale miles per hour (10 scale kilometres per hour), and as long
            Message 5 of 23 , May 28, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "elias1859" <brian.alters@...> wrote:
              >
              Thus I have now determined that I would like the
              > locomotive to run as smoothly as possible at 0.5"/second on level
              > straightaways, around tight curves, and over switches for an hour
              at
              > a time. Is this possible?
              > Again I really appreciate all the wonderful responses. Thanks!
              > Brian
              >


              0.5 inches per second is 6.25 scale miles per hour (10 scale
              kilometres per hour), and as long as wheels, tracks, turnout
              contacts, and locomotive inner conducting contacts are maintained
              clean a good 4-axle (8 wheel pickup) diesel will run unattended for
              days with no problems.

              Have tried this, running trains non-stop on tight curves and Marklin
              turnouts to see how long they would go. The two initial problems
              were mysterious midnight derailments which were later determined to
              be caused by the cat, and track cleaning needed every two days due to
              the plastic wheels of 6 cars used as part of the test. Once the cars
              were eliminated and the test moved into a cat-proof room, ran non-
              stop at about 5 scale mph for several days at a time. Eventually,
              even without plastic wheels trailing behind, tracks and loco wheels
              did need to be cleaned again as oxides slowly built up.

              To get this performance with plastic wheels (and possibly metal
              wheels), the rolling stock wheels need to be maintained clean too.
              Does no good to clean the rails and then place rolling stock with
              dirty wheels on your nice clean track. Within 5 minutes your track
              needs cleanng again.
            • viktor_kovacs
              ... Chopped is when the power is switched between on and tristate. So essentially, in the on mode, the circuit is closed, in the tristate mode, the circuit is
              Message 6 of 23 , May 30, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "elias1859" <brian.alters@...> wrote:
                > Wow! I believe I understood everything Viktor wrote except for one
                > thing: What does "chopped" mean in "chopped pwm pack"?
                > Thanks!
                > Brian

                Chopped is when the power is switched between on and tristate.
                So essentially, in the on mode, the circuit is closed, in the
                tristate mode, the circuit is open. Many pwm circuits, switch
                between on and off, so they slow the motor in the off phase.
                With on - tristate - on - tristate operation the motor gets
                the pwm pulses, but the filtering capacitors don't get discharged
                in the off state, so the resulting waveform is actually a pwm
                wave with a small dc component. It's good for the motors, since
                they are never switched into break mode, so heat is less of
                a problem. Not to mention the driver chips run much cooler too,
                especially when used with rail to rail drivers, so no voltage
                drop occure inside the chips. This is the conventional way
                of operation for most industrial motors and switched power
                supplies. To use chopped pwm, one needs a driver chip with
                tristate output capability. Most dcc decoders come only with
                a normal on-off driver circuit (H bridge), which results in
                higher power draw, more heat and a less smooth motion for
                the motor. Chopped mode can be used in dcc decoders and
                normal hand throttles and works especially good when one
                wants to leave engine and track bypass capacitors in place,
                which isn't a good idea with normal on-off pwm.
              • elias1859
                Thanks to all for such helpful information!!! Brian
                Message 7 of 23 , May 30, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  Thanks to all for such helpful information!!!

                  Brian



                  --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "elias1859" <brian.alters@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > At the slowest speeds possible, what Z locomotive is the smoothest-
                  > running?
                  >
                  > Thanks.
                  >
                  > Brian
                  >
                • Keith Nelsen
                  This is a little off subject, but still interesting to train buffs. Check out the You Tube video below about steam trains in China.
                  Message 8 of 23 , Jun 5, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    This is a little off subject, but still interesting to train buffs.
                    Check out the You Tube video below about steam trains in China.

                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uN72lqJvwrA


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.