Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Smoothest-Running Z Locomotive?

Expand Messages
  • elias1859
    At the slowest speeds possible, what Z locomotive is the smoothest- running? Thanks. Brian
    Message 1 of 23 , May 26, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      At the slowest speeds possible, what Z locomotive is the smoothest-
      running?

      Thanks.

      Brian
    • Lindley Ruddick
      For the money you can’t beat a Micro Trains Line GP35 or GP9. The AZL locomotives are also great but quite a bit more money. Lindley ... From:
      Message 2 of 23 , May 26, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        For the money you can’t beat a Micro Trains Line GP35 or GP9. The AZL
        locomotives are also great but quite a bit more money.
        Lindley

        -----Original Message-----
        From: z_scale@yahoogroups.com [mailto:z_scale@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
        elias1859
        Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 10:38 AM
        To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [Z_Scale] Smoothest-Running Z Locomotive?

        At the slowest speeds possible, what Z locomotive is the smoothest-
        running?

        Thanks.

        Brian


        No virus found in this outgoing message.
        Checked by AVG.
        Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.1/1466 - Release Date: 05/25/2008
        6:49 PM


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Loren
        Also, a MTL F7 that has undergone Glen Chenier s magic touch program is the tops in slow running. Loren ... From: Lindley Ruddick To:
        Message 3 of 23 , May 26, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          Also, a MTL F7 that has undergone Glen Chenier's "magic touch" program is
          the tops in slow running.
          Loren

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Lindley Ruddick" <elruddick@...>
          To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 11:23 AM
          Subject: RE: [Z_Scale] Smoothest-Running Z Locomotive?


          For the money you can't beat a Micro Trains Line GP35 or GP9. The AZL
          locomotives are also great but quite a bit more money.
          Lindley

          -----Original Message-----
          From: z_scale@yahoogroups.com [mailto:z_scale@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
          elias1859
          Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 10:38 AM
          To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [Z_Scale] Smoothest-Running Z Locomotive?

          At the slowest speeds possible, what Z locomotive is the smoothest-
          running?

          Thanks.

          Brian
        • Cliff Travis
          Hi, MTL F7s, particularly those which have been overhauled by Glen Chenier are in a class by themselves when it comes to slow smooth running , I have several
          Message 4 of 23 , May 26, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi,
            MTL F7s, particularly those which have been overhauled by Glen
            Chenier are in a class by themselves when it comes to slow smooth
            running , I have several that were DCCd by Glen and they start to
            move at the Lowest throttle setting and proceed through all kinds of
            switches, rough track etc without hesitation. They can pull the
            heaviest loads around 5"radius curves.
            Cliff


            --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Loren" <ljsnyder@...> wrote:
            >
            > Also, a MTL F7 that has undergone Glen Chenier's "magic touch"
            program is
            > the tops in slow running.
            > Loren
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Lindley Ruddick" <elruddick@...>
            > To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 11:23 AM
            > Subject: RE: [Z_Scale] Smoothest-Running Z Locomotive?
            >
            >
            > For the money you can't beat a Micro Trains Line GP35 or GP9. The >
            Brian
            >
          • Jeff BAZ-man
            How and where do you want to run this slow loco? Yard? Switchihg? Variable mainline speeds (due to other trains) like with block controls or passing tracks?
            Message 5 of 23 , May 26, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              How and where do you want to run this slow loco? Yard? Switchihg?
              Variable mainline speeds (due to other trains) like with block
              controls or passing tracks? Or, do you just want to use with
              a 'deluxe' power pack that has 'momentum, accelleration and braking'
              effect?

              The MTL F7 sure will run better than others, so do there GPs.
              Märklin's 5 pole locos run OK, better than their older 3 poles.

              If you really want to run slow, it takes more than the motor. Motors
              are designed to run at one speed or a narrow range, not infinite.
              They do not start easy, requiring a minimum voltage. Plain DC power
              packs (like the Märklin or lower priced MRC, etc.) don't have the
              best design to run at slower speeds. Pulse Power (began in the 70's)
              or more modern PWM (pulse width modulation) like you find in DCC are
              better. These power supplies supply near full voltage pulses but
              short duration. This gets the motor easy started but it 'runs' for
              such a short portion of a second that you can't see it 'step'.

              You can find this technology for <$50 from System Joerger (Jörger),
              Zthek and others. You'll have much smoother running slow speeds. If
              the mechanics are good on the loco, these controllers can make it
              crawl up to maybe 100x lower than a plain DC power pack. And
              reliably. Since they pulse the motor near full on, if the mechanism
              binds a bit (drag) or the trackwork curves or something, that could
              be enough to stop a DC power pack running a motor at the edge.

              Jeff
              SF Bay Area Z



              --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Cliff Travis" <cliff@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi,
              > MTL F7s, particularly those which have been overhauled by Glen
              > Chenier are in a class by themselves when it comes to slow smooth
              > running , I have several that were DCCd by Glen and they start to
              > move at the Lowest throttle setting and proceed through all kinds
              of
              > switches, rough track etc without hesitation. They can pull the
              > heaviest loads around 5"radius curves.
              > Cliff
              >
              >
              > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Loren" <ljsnyder@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Also, a MTL F7 that has undergone Glen Chenier's "magic touch"
              > program is
              > > the tops in slow running.
              > > Loren
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: "Lindley Ruddick" <elruddick@>
              > > To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
              > > Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 11:23 AM
              > > Subject: RE: [Z_Scale] Smoothest-Running Z Locomotive?
              > >
              > >
              > > For the money you can't beat a Micro Trains Line GP35 or GP9. The
              >
              > Brian
              > >
              >
            • Don A
              [snip from Jeff] If the mechanics are good on the loco, these controllers can make it crawl up to maybe 100x lower than a plain DC power pack. -- In simple
              Message 6 of 23 , May 26, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                [snip from Jeff] If the mechanics are good on the loco, these
                controllers can make it crawl up to maybe 100x lower than a plain DC
                power pack.
                -- In simple terms this means anywhere from 90 to 120 seconds [2
                minutes] to go the length of the loco. ...don


                --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff BAZ-man" <sjbazman49@...> wrote:
                >
                > How and where do you want to run this slow loco? Yard? Switchihg?
                > Variable mainline speeds (due to other trains) like with block
                > controls or passing tracks? Or, do you just want to use with
                > a 'deluxe' power pack that has 'momentum, accelleration and braking'
                > effect?
                >
                > The MTL F7 sure will run better than others, so do there GPs.
                > Märklin's 5 pole locos run OK, better than their older 3 poles.
                >
                > If you really want to run slow, it takes more than the motor. Motors
                > are designed to run at one speed or a narrow range, not infinite.
                > They do not start easy, requiring a minimum voltage. Plain DC power
                > packs (like the Märklin or lower priced MRC, etc.) don't have the
                > best design to run at slower speeds. Pulse Power (began in the 70's)
                > or more modern PWM (pulse width modulation) like you find in DCC are
                > better. These power supplies supply near full voltage pulses but
                > short duration. This gets the motor easy started but it 'runs' for
                > such a short portion of a second that you can't see it 'step'.
                >
                > You can find this technology for <$50 from System Joerger (Jörger),
                > Zthek and others. You'll have much smoother running slow speeds. If
                > the mechanics are good on the loco, these controllers can make it
                > crawl up to maybe 100x lower than a plain DC power pack. And
                > reliably. Since they pulse the motor near full on, if the mechanism
                > binds a bit (drag) or the trackwork curves or something, that could
                > be enough to stop a DC power pack running a motor at the edge.
                >
                > Jeff
                > SF Bay Area Z
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Cliff Travis" <cliff@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi,
                > > MTL F7s, particularly those which have been overhauled by Glen
                > > Chenier are in a class by themselves when it comes to slow smooth
                > > running , I have several that were DCCd by Glen and they start to
                > > move at the Lowest throttle setting and proceed through all kinds
                > of
                > > switches, rough track etc without hesitation. They can pull the
                > > heaviest loads around 5"radius curves.
                > > Cliff
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Loren" <ljsnyder@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Also, a MTL F7 that has undergone Glen Chenier's "magic touch"
                > > program is
                > > > the tops in slow running.
                > > > Loren
                > > >
                > > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > > From: "Lindley Ruddick" <elruddick@>
                > > > To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                > > > Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 11:23 AM
                > > > Subject: RE: [Z_Scale] Smoothest-Running Z Locomotive?
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > For the money you can't beat a Micro Trains Line GP35 or GP9. The
                > >
                > > Brian
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • Zane H. Healy
                ... OK, I ll bite, why on earth would you want a locomotive to go *THAT* slow? Zane -- ... +----------------------------------+----------------------------+
                Message 7 of 23 , May 26, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  At 4:34 AM +0000 5/27/08, Don A wrote:
                  >[snip from Jeff] If the mechanics are good on the loco, these
                  >controllers can make it crawl up to maybe 100x lower than a plain DC
                  >power pack.
                  > -- In simple terms this means anywhere from 90 to 120 seconds [2
                  >minutes] to go the length of the loco. ...don

                  OK, I'll bite, why on earth would you want a locomotive to go *THAT* slow?

                  Zane


                  --
                  | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
                  | healyzh@... (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
                  | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector |
                  +----------------------------------+----------------------------+
                  | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
                  | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
                  | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
                • John Duino
                  ... Because it is SOOOOO much fun to have some arrogant, over-stuffed N/HO/G/whatever-scaler in your face at a train show, point to this little loc creeping
                  Message 8 of 23 , May 26, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    > OK, I'll bite, why on earth would you want a locomotive to go *THAT* slow?

                    Because it is SOOOOO much fun to have some arrogant, over-stuffed
                    N/HO/G/whatever-scaler in your face at a train show, point to this little
                    loc creeping along, and they say, "It's MOVING!?!?"

                    It's cool, baby, real cool.
                  • Loren
                    John, Sometimes those other scalers think they are the only show in town, so how do you expect them to comprehend what they are actually seeing, let alone be
                    Message 9 of 23 , May 26, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      John,
                      Sometimes those "other scalers" think they are the only show in town, so how
                      do you expect them to comprehend what they are actually seeing, let alone be
                      able to explain it? I just love to confound the critics.....they are such
                      an ignorant bunch. By that, I mean they don't think any scale besides their
                      own particular favorite can amount to anything.
                      Boy, a lot of folks are going to be waking up to a new realization over a
                      long time period. Too bad some of them will age beyond the ability to
                      really grasp it all and too late some may realize that Z is for real. Dare
                      I say Z is for real men and women?

                      Mind you, I'm not saying that other scalers aren't great folks, it's just
                      when some of them begin to think their "journel box grease don't stink" that
                      I get a little put out with them. Lots of us Z scalers also model in other
                      scales so I think that makes us a little more well rounded than those who
                      may just stick with one scale. Is there a best scale?...........no, so to
                      each his or her own.
                      I personally prefer Z scale because it's "cute" and you can get a lot in a
                      small space.

                      Now I'm in trouble for calling Z "cute"
                      Fact remains, Z can creep with the best of them.

                      Jim Manley has said it before and I'll join in with him and say it
                      again...."changing the world, one train show at a time"

                      Loren


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "John Duino" <jduino@...>
                      To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 10:01 PM
                      Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: Smoothest-Running Z Locomotive?


                      >
                      >> OK, I'll bite, why on earth would you want a locomotive to go *THAT*
                      >> slow?
                      >
                      > Because it is SOOOOO much fun to have some arrogant, over-stuffed
                      > N/HO/G/whatever-scaler in your face at a train show, point to this little
                      > loc creeping along, and they say, "It's MOVING!?!?"
                      >
                      > It's cool, baby, real cool.
                    • John Mui
                      My slowes engine is my C44-9. What set it apart is that is very smooth while doing it. May I also add that to run slow, you need good smooth track and smooth
                      Message 10 of 23 , May 27, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        My slowes engine is my C44-9. What set it apart is that is very smooth while
                        doing it. May I also add that to run slow, you need good smooth track and
                        smooth curver, specially if you use flex track.

                        John
                      • Konrad Malkowski
                        Loren, I have to agree with you about some people being dismissive of Z. I have so far modeled in HO, N and Z. By far I like the Z the best because of the
                        Message 11 of 23 , May 27, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Loren,
                          I have to agree with you about some people being dismissive of Z. I
                          have so far modeled in HO, N and Z. By far I like the Z the best
                          because of the "cuteness" factor and ability to have sizeable
                          operation in a relatively small space. Also I like to model steam...
                          and at least in Z scale they look semi-realistic, without requiring
                          wide curves. One of the reasons why I got put off with larger scales
                          was the fact
                          that to enjoy steamers I needed wide radii (I model european).
                          However, at the club we belong
                          to we have a big HO layout, so I have a nice 7 car HO passenger
                          train, with a PRR K4 pulling it
                          for that. Now, I need to work on getting a European HO train to make
                          an appearance on that layout :-P

                          cheers

                          Konrad




                          On May 27, 2008, at 2:58 AM, Loren wrote:

                          > John,
                          > Sometimes those "other scalers" think they are the only show in
                          > town, so how
                          > do you expect them to comprehend what they are actually seeing, let
                          > alone be
                          > able to explain it? I just love to confound the critics.....they
                          > are such
                          > an ignorant bunch. By that, I mean they don't think any scale
                          > besides their
                          > own particular favorite can amount to anything.
                          > Boy, a lot of folks are going to be waking up to a new realization
                          > over a
                          > long time period. Too bad some of them will age beyond the ability to
                          > really grasp it all and too late some may realize that Z is for
                          > real. Dare
                          > I say Z is for real men and women?
                          >
                          > Mind you, I'm not saying that other scalers aren't great folks,
                          > it's just
                          > when some of them begin to think their "journel box grease don't
                          > stink" that
                          > I get a little put out with them. Lots of us Z scalers also model
                          > in other
                          > scales so I think that makes us a little more well rounded than
                          > those who
                          > may just stick with one scale. Is there a best scale?...........no,
                          > so to
                          > each his or her own.
                          > I personally prefer Z scale because it's "cute" and you can get a
                          > lot in a
                          > small space.
                          >
                          > Now I'm in trouble for calling Z "cute"
                          > Fact remains, Z can creep with the best of them.
                          >
                          > Jim Manley has said it before and I'll join in with him and say it
                          > again...."changing the world, one train show at a time"
                          >
                          > Loren
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: "John Duino" <jduino@...>
                          > To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 10:01 PM
                          > Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: Smoothest-Running Z Locomotive?
                          >
                          > >
                          > >> OK, I'll bite, why on earth would you want a locomotive to go
                          > *THAT*
                          > >> slow?
                          > >
                          > > Because it is SOOOOO much fun to have some arrogant, over-stuffed
                          > > N/HO/G/whatever-scaler in your face at a train show, point to
                          > this little
                          > > loc creeping along, and they say, "It's MOVING!?!?"
                          > >
                          > > It's cool, baby, real cool.
                          >
                          >
                          >



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Reynard Wellman
                          Hello Cliff, Thanks for the tip on the work done by Glen Chenier! I ll look into it if I decide to DCC. For myself and any new Z scalers who may want to get a
                          Message 12 of 23 , May 27, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hello Cliff,
                            Thanks for the tip on the work done by Glen Chenier!
                            I'll look into it if I decide to DCC. For myself and any
                            new Z scalers who may want to get a smooth running loco
                            without any modifications I have two recommendations:

                            1] Best out the box diesel runner: Micro-Trains Line's GP35's
                            2] Best out the box steam runner: Marklin Pacific's.

                            I am sure that there are many others. I have had good
                            experience with other locos from additional manufacturers
                            but for me these two which are the most accessible in
                            price for beginners and they do perform quite realistically.

                            Best regardZ,
                            Reynard
                            http://www.micronart.com


                            On May 26, 2008, at 1:35 PM, Cliff Travis wrote:

                            > Hi,
                            > MTL F7s, particularly those which have been overhauled by Glen
                            > Chenier are in a class by themselves when it comes to slow smooth
                            > running , I have several that were DCCd by Glen and they start to
                            > move at the Lowest throttle setting and proceed through all kinds of
                            > switches, rough track etc without hesitation. They can pull the
                            > heaviest loads around 5"radius curves.
                            > Cliff
                            >
                            > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Loren" <ljsnyder@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Also, a MTL F7 that has undergone Glen Chenier's "magic touch"
                            > program is
                            > > the tops in slow running.
                            > > Loren
                            > >
                            > > ----- Original Message -----
                            > > From: "Lindley Ruddick" <elruddick@...>
                            > > To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                            > > Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 11:23 AM
                            > > Subject: RE: [Z_Scale] Smoothest-Running Z Locomotive?
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > For the money you can't beat a Micro Trains Line GP35 or GP9. The >
                            > Brian
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Glen Chenier
                            ... *THAT* slow? ... little ... Well, that s one reason. Unfortunately there is still an assumed performance stigma attached to Z by those who have not yet
                            Message 13 of 23 , May 27, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "John Duino" <jduino@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >> Zane wrote:
                              >> OK, I'll bite, why on earth would you want a locomotive to go
                              *THAT* slow?
                              >
                              > Because it is SOOOOO much fun to have some arrogant, over-stuffed
                              > N/HO/G/whatever-scaler in your face at a train show, point to this
                              little
                              > loc creeping along, and they say, "It's MOVING!?!?"
                              >
                              > It's cool, baby, real cool.

                              Well, that's one reason. Unfortunately there is still an assumed
                              performance stigma attached to Z by those who have not yet been shown
                              otherwise, but the above is a great way to make them zee the light.

                              Another reason is that if the loco can be made to creep far slower
                              than practical, it will also creep at more usable speeds with the
                              same reliability. Ultra-slow speed is a performance test.
                            • Glen Chenier
                              ... ... braking ... ... 70 s) ... are ... So true, in order of increasing performance is DC, full wave rectified sine, half wave rectified sine,
                              Message 14 of 23 , May 27, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff BAZ-man" <sjbazman49@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                <snip>

                                >Or, do you just want to use with
                                > a 'deluxe' power pack that has 'momentum, accelleration and
                                braking'
                                > effect?
                                >
                                <snip>
                                >
                                > Plain DC power
                                > packs (like the Märklin or lower priced MRC, etc.) don't have the
                                > best design to run at slower speeds. Pulse Power (began in the
                                70's)
                                > or more modern PWM (pulse width modulation) like you find in DCC
                                are
                                > better. These power supplies supply near full voltage pulses but
                                > short duration. This gets the motor easy started but it 'runs' for
                                > such a short portion of a second that you can't see it 'step'.
                                >
                                > You can find this technology for <$50 from System Joerger (Jörger),
                                > Zthek and others. You'll have much smoother running slow speeds.


                                So true, in order of increasing performance is DC, full wave
                                rectified sine, half wave rectified sine, exotic pulse superimposed
                                on DC, finally pulse width modulation (DCC uses high frequency PWM)
                                such as from System Joerger (Jörger), Zthek and others.

                                BIG CAVEAT - The low frequency pulse types MUST be 9 volts maximum
                                pulse voltage or lower (Jorger, Zthek are 9 volts). Overvoltage
                                pulses can make a Z loco creep beautifully until it suddenly stops
                                dead with a fried motor. ("Wow, didn't know your loco had a smoke
                                generator!" ... "What smoke generator? Ohhhhhhh, ####!").

                                A 'deluxe' power pack that has 'momentum, accelleration and braking'
                                effect is most likely too high a voltage to be used for Z scale
                                locomotives. A voltage dropper with lots of series diodes could make
                                it usable, or one could take up electronics as a second hobby and
                                home-brew a Zafe 9 volt power pack with the desired long-term
                                momentum, acceleration and braking features.

                                Cliff and Loren, thanks for the kind words. But I will reiterate
                                that all the details of MTL F7 overhaul are right here on this list
                                in the Files and Photos for anyone who wants to try DIY with their
                                absolutely worst performing dog loco. Nothing to lose. The only
                                additional tip not yet in there is that an old toothbrush wetted with
                                rubbing alcohol works great to scrub pet hairs and other grunge out
                                of worms and gears.
                              • elias1859
                                Many thanks to everyone! WRT the various questions to me, I would like to know the smoothest- running at the slow speed whether the locomotive is $100 or $400,
                                Message 15 of 23 , May 27, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Many thanks to everyone!

                                  WRT the various questions to me, I would like to know the smoothest-
                                  running at the slow speed whether the locomotive is $100 or $400, and
                                  it does not matter whether it is diesel or steam because I may remove
                                  the housing altogether. I can certainly incorporate -- with help --
                                  some form of DCC (which I've never used and know little about). I
                                  now realize -- thanks to many great responses -- that I need to
                                  articulate how slow I want the locomotive to move. (I never dreamed
                                  they could creep.) Thus I have now determined that I would like the
                                  locomotive to run as smoothly as possible at 0.5"/second on level
                                  straightaways, around tight curves, and over switches for an hour at
                                  a time. Is this possible?
                                  Again I really appreciate all the wonderful responses. Thanks!
                                  Brian







                                  --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "elias1859" <brian.alters@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > At the slowest speeds possible, what Z locomotive is the smoothest-
                                  > running?
                                  >
                                  > Thanks.
                                  >
                                  > Brian
                                  >
                                • Jeff BAZ-man
                                  Electrical contact will limit you from running slow, especially in curves. Maybe the MTL F7 with the wheel wipers AND a Guage Master to assure electrical
                                  Message 16 of 23 , May 27, 2008
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Electrical contact will limit you from running slow, especially in
                                    curves. Maybe the MTL F7 with the wheel wipers AND a Guage Master to
                                    assure electrical contact. In any way, I think you will be a kid in
                                    a candy store for the first time when it does make it around the one
                                    and only time.

                                    http://ztrackcenter.com/electronics/product_images/1.jpg

                                    http://ztrackcenter.com/electronics/

                                    But if you want a loco to bash, the Marklin will be the cheapest (the
                                    US and Euro diesels versions are that same chassis). The MTL F7 is
                                    completely full of metal, as is a $400+ AZL. Even the MTL GP9 or
                                    GP35 also is nearly full of metal.

                                    Jeff
                                    SF Bay Area Z

                                    --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "elias1859" <brian.alters@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Many thanks to everyone!
                                    >
                                    > WRT the various questions to me, I would like to know the smoothest-
                                    > running at the slow speed whether the locomotive is $100 or $400,
                                    and
                                    > it does not matter whether it is diesel or steam because I may
                                    remove
                                    > the housing altogether. I can certainly incorporate -- with help --

                                    > some form of DCC (which I've never used and know little about). I
                                    > now realize -- thanks to many great responses -- that I need to
                                    > articulate how slow I want the locomotive to move. (I never dreamed
                                    > they could creep.) Thus I have now determined that I would like
                                    the
                                    > locomotive to run as smoothly as possible at 0.5"/second on level
                                    > straightaways, around tight curves, and over switches for an hour
                                    at
                                    > a time. Is this possible?
                                    > Again I really appreciate all the wonderful responses. Thanks!
                                    > Brian
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "elias1859" <brian.alters@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > At the slowest speeds possible, what Z locomotive is the
                                    smoothest-
                                    > > running?
                                    > >
                                    > > Thanks.
                                    > >
                                    > > Brian
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • elias1859
                                    I apologize, I am now confused. Jeff stated I think you will be a kid in a candy store for the first time when it does make it around the one and only time.
                                    Message 17 of 23 , May 28, 2008
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      I apologize, I am now confused. Jeff stated "I think you will be a
                                      kid in a candy store for the first time when it does make it around
                                      the one and only time." Does that mean what I want to do is next to
                                      impossible or extremely difficult? Does that mean if it makes it
                                      around the track one time I am fortunate, and that will likely be a
                                      rare event? Is the speed of 0.5"/second unreasonably slow for smooth
                                      motion? I appreciate the help, I just want to make sure I'm
                                      understanding accurately. Many thanks!
                                      Brian










                                      --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff BAZ-man" <sjbazman49@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Electrical contact will limit you from running slow, especially in
                                      > curves. Maybe the MTL F7 with the wheel wipers AND a Guage Master
                                      to
                                      > assure electrical contact. In any way, I think you will be a kid
                                      in
                                      > a candy store for the first time when it does make it around the
                                      one
                                      > and only time.
                                      >
                                      > http://ztrackcenter.com/electronics/product_images/1.jpg
                                      >
                                      > http://ztrackcenter.com/electronics/
                                      >
                                      > But if you want a loco to bash, the Marklin will be the cheapest
                                      (the
                                      > US and Euro diesels versions are that same chassis). The MTL F7 is
                                      > completely full of metal, as is a $400+ AZL. Even the MTL GP9 or
                                      > GP35 also is nearly full of metal.
                                      >
                                      > Jeff
                                      > SF Bay Area Z
                                      >
                                      > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "elias1859" <brian.alters@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Many thanks to everyone!
                                      > >
                                      > > WRT the various questions to me, I would like to know the
                                      smoothest-
                                      > > running at the slow speed whether the locomotive is $100 or $400,
                                      > and
                                      > > it does not matter whether it is diesel or steam because I may
                                      > remove
                                      > > the housing altogether. I can certainly incorporate -- with
                                      help --
                                      >
                                      > > some form of DCC (which I've never used and know little about).
                                      I
                                      > > now realize -- thanks to many great responses -- that I need to
                                      > > articulate how slow I want the locomotive to move. (I never
                                      dreamed
                                      > > they could creep.) Thus I have now determined that I would like
                                      > the
                                      > > locomotive to run as smoothly as possible at 0.5"/second on level
                                      > > straightaways, around tight curves, and over switches for an hour
                                      > at
                                      > > a time. Is this possible?
                                      > > Again I really appreciate all the wonderful responses. Thanks!
                                      > > Brian
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "elias1859" <brian.alters@> wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > At the slowest speeds possible, what Z locomotive is the
                                      > smoothest-
                                      > > > running?
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Thanks.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Brian
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • viktor_kovacs
                                      ... With clean track and a new marklin solid state dc pack, you can make a 8800 br89 creep that slow without extra circuits, just don t weather the rails on
                                      Message 18 of 23 , May 28, 2008
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "elias1859" <brian.alters@...> wrote:
                                        > I apologize, I am now confused. Jeff stated "I think you will be a
                                        > kid in a candy store for the first time when it does make it around
                                        > the one and only time." Does that mean what I want to do is next to
                                        > impossible or extremely difficult? Does that mean if it makes it
                                        > around the track one time I am fortunate, and that will likely be a
                                        > rare event? Is the speed of 0.5"/second unreasonably slow for smooth
                                        > motion? I appreciate the help, I just want to make sure I'm
                                        > understanding accurately. Many thanks!
                                        > Brian

                                        With clean track and a new marklin solid state dc pack,
                                        you can make a 8800 br89 creep that slow without extra circuits,
                                        just don't weather the rails on the tops and the _insides_.
                                        The slowest I got my 8800 with pure dc was 0.1 inch/second,
                                        but on switches you have to speed up to 1 inch/second without
                                        pwm.

                                        With a good chopped pwm pack (on-tristate-on instead of on-off-on)
                                        you can make it crawl without making the track and the wheels
                                        extra clean, and it really helps with the switches, where the
                                        locos tend to stall even when the contact is still there, due
                                        to the increased resitance of the rails. With marklin switches,
                                        the contact wipers tend to oxidise, so throwing the switch a
                                        couple of times back and forth helps too.

                                        If the standard track cleaners are too strong for the led lighting
                                        of a loco, the pwm driver chip can add short medium voltage spikes
                                        to the normal pwm output in case the feedback circuit detects a
                                        break in the circuit. I don't know a commercial example of this
                                        design but I made a prototype of this double voltage pwm driver,
                                        so it works. The same circuit can be used for constant lighting
                                        circuits, but it does heat the motors when used for a prolonged
                                        time.

                                        ps: Did you know, that marklin motors follow the motor design
                                        used in the first new york central bipolar s-motors in 1903?
                                        The only difference is that they used a gearless and rodless
                                        axle mounted design, while marklin uses gears because of size
                                        constraints. But the dc motor design is the same, including
                                        the rail based dc power distribution system and the option
                                        to switch to overhead caternary by flipping a switch. Caternary
                                        support was added to the s-motors because they tended to stall
                                        on larger switch blocks because of loss of contact.
                                      • elias1859
                                        Wow! I believe I understood everything Viktor wrote except for one thing: What does chopped mean in chopped pwm pack ? Thanks! Brian ... a ... around ... to
                                        Message 19 of 23 , May 28, 2008
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Wow! I believe I understood everything Viktor wrote except for one
                                          thing: What does "chopped" mean in "chopped pwm pack"?
                                          Thanks!
                                          Brian




                                          --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "viktor_kovacs" <viktor_kovacs@...>
                                          wrote:
                                          >
                                          > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "elias1859" <brian.alters@> wrote:
                                          > > I apologize, I am now confused. Jeff stated "I think you will be
                                          a
                                          > > kid in a candy store for the first time when it does make it
                                          around
                                          > > the one and only time." Does that mean what I want to do is next
                                          to
                                          > > impossible or extremely difficult? Does that mean if it makes it
                                          > > around the track one time I am fortunate, and that will likely be
                                          a
                                          > > rare event? Is the speed of 0.5"/second unreasonably slow for
                                          smooth
                                          > > motion? I appreciate the help, I just want to make sure I'm
                                          > > understanding accurately. Many thanks!
                                          > > Brian
                                          >
                                          > With clean track and a new marklin solid state dc pack,
                                          > you can make a 8800 br89 creep that slow without extra circuits,
                                          > just don't weather the rails on the tops and the _insides_.
                                          > The slowest I got my 8800 with pure dc was 0.1 inch/second,
                                          > but on switches you have to speed up to 1 inch/second without
                                          > pwm.
                                          >
                                          > With a good chopped pwm pack (on-tristate-on instead of on-off-on)
                                          > you can make it crawl without making the track and the wheels
                                          > extra clean, and it really helps with the switches, where the
                                          > locos tend to stall even when the contact is still there, due
                                          > to the increased resitance of the rails. With marklin switches,
                                          > the contact wipers tend to oxidise, so throwing the switch a
                                          > couple of times back and forth helps too.
                                          >
                                          > If the standard track cleaners are too strong for the led lighting
                                          > of a loco, the pwm driver chip can add short medium voltage spikes
                                          > to the normal pwm output in case the feedback circuit detects a
                                          > break in the circuit. I don't know a commercial example of this
                                          > design but I made a prototype of this double voltage pwm driver,
                                          > so it works. The same circuit can be used for constant lighting
                                          > circuits, but it does heat the motors when used for a prolonged
                                          > time.
                                          >
                                          > ps: Did you know, that marklin motors follow the motor design
                                          > used in the first new york central bipolar s-motors in 1903?
                                          > The only difference is that they used a gearless and rodless
                                          > axle mounted design, while marklin uses gears because of size
                                          > constraints. But the dc motor design is the same, including
                                          > the rail based dc power distribution system and the option
                                          > to switch to overhead caternary by flipping a switch. Caternary
                                          > support was added to the s-motors because they tended to stall
                                          > on larger switch blocks because of loss of contact.
                                          >
                                        • Glen Chenier
                                          ... Thus I have now determined that I would like the ... at ... 0.5 inches per second is 6.25 scale miles per hour (10 scale kilometres per hour), and as long
                                          Message 20 of 23 , May 28, 2008
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "elias1859" <brian.alters@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            Thus I have now determined that I would like the
                                            > locomotive to run as smoothly as possible at 0.5"/second on level
                                            > straightaways, around tight curves, and over switches for an hour
                                            at
                                            > a time. Is this possible?
                                            > Again I really appreciate all the wonderful responses. Thanks!
                                            > Brian
                                            >


                                            0.5 inches per second is 6.25 scale miles per hour (10 scale
                                            kilometres per hour), and as long as wheels, tracks, turnout
                                            contacts, and locomotive inner conducting contacts are maintained
                                            clean a good 4-axle (8 wheel pickup) diesel will run unattended for
                                            days with no problems.

                                            Have tried this, running trains non-stop on tight curves and Marklin
                                            turnouts to see how long they would go. The two initial problems
                                            were mysterious midnight derailments which were later determined to
                                            be caused by the cat, and track cleaning needed every two days due to
                                            the plastic wheels of 6 cars used as part of the test. Once the cars
                                            were eliminated and the test moved into a cat-proof room, ran non-
                                            stop at about 5 scale mph for several days at a time. Eventually,
                                            even without plastic wheels trailing behind, tracks and loco wheels
                                            did need to be cleaned again as oxides slowly built up.

                                            To get this performance with plastic wheels (and possibly metal
                                            wheels), the rolling stock wheels need to be maintained clean too.
                                            Does no good to clean the rails and then place rolling stock with
                                            dirty wheels on your nice clean track. Within 5 minutes your track
                                            needs cleanng again.
                                          • viktor_kovacs
                                            ... Chopped is when the power is switched between on and tristate. So essentially, in the on mode, the circuit is closed, in the tristate mode, the circuit is
                                            Message 21 of 23 , May 30, 2008
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "elias1859" <brian.alters@...> wrote:
                                              > Wow! I believe I understood everything Viktor wrote except for one
                                              > thing: What does "chopped" mean in "chopped pwm pack"?
                                              > Thanks!
                                              > Brian

                                              Chopped is when the power is switched between on and tristate.
                                              So essentially, in the on mode, the circuit is closed, in the
                                              tristate mode, the circuit is open. Many pwm circuits, switch
                                              between on and off, so they slow the motor in the off phase.
                                              With on - tristate - on - tristate operation the motor gets
                                              the pwm pulses, but the filtering capacitors don't get discharged
                                              in the off state, so the resulting waveform is actually a pwm
                                              wave with a small dc component. It's good for the motors, since
                                              they are never switched into break mode, so heat is less of
                                              a problem. Not to mention the driver chips run much cooler too,
                                              especially when used with rail to rail drivers, so no voltage
                                              drop occure inside the chips. This is the conventional way
                                              of operation for most industrial motors and switched power
                                              supplies. To use chopped pwm, one needs a driver chip with
                                              tristate output capability. Most dcc decoders come only with
                                              a normal on-off driver circuit (H bridge), which results in
                                              higher power draw, more heat and a less smooth motion for
                                              the motor. Chopped mode can be used in dcc decoders and
                                              normal hand throttles and works especially good when one
                                              wants to leave engine and track bypass capacitors in place,
                                              which isn't a good idea with normal on-off pwm.
                                            • elias1859
                                              Thanks to all for such helpful information!!! Brian
                                              Message 22 of 23 , May 30, 2008
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Thanks to all for such helpful information!!!

                                                Brian



                                                --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "elias1859" <brian.alters@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > At the slowest speeds possible, what Z locomotive is the smoothest-
                                                > running?
                                                >
                                                > Thanks.
                                                >
                                                > Brian
                                                >
                                              • Keith Nelsen
                                                This is a little off subject, but still interesting to train buffs. Check out the You Tube video below about steam trains in China.
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Jun 5, 2008
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  This is a little off subject, but still interesting to train buffs.
                                                  Check out the You Tube video below about steam trains in China.

                                                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uN72lqJvwrA


                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.