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Re: [Z_Scale] Wheel/coupler combinations

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  • George Evans
    Again i am new to this hobby. What is wrong with plastic wheels? ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    Message 1 of 16 , May 2, 2008
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      Again i am new to this hobby. What is wrong with plastic wheels?
      On May 2, 2008, at 10:32 AM, Malcolm Cleaveland wrote:

      > I'd like to start a dialog. There are basically 3 choices for the N.
      > American modeler:
      >
      > 1. Micro-Trains (MTL) truck/coupler combinations, plastic wheels
      > available
      > with attached coupler or truck and coupler available separately.
      >
      > 2. Marklin truck/coupler combination, metal wheels, coupler is
      > huge, ugly,
      > and unprototypical. Even worse, it prevents Marklin from making
      > accurate
      > models of N. American rolling stock. (Trucks have to be positioned
      > unrealistically, making other portions of the models out of position.)
      >
      > 3. AZL truck/coupler combination, metal wheels, coupler is fixed,
      > requires
      > manipulation by the operator for coupling/uncoupling.
      >
      > The first option is the most flexible and prototypical, but sticks you
      > with plastic wheelsets. The second and third options offer metal
      > wheels,
      > but have significant drawbacks.
      >
      > The AZL wheelsets come with fixed couplers that make operation next to
      > impossible, as opposed to just watching the trains go round and round.
      >
      > Has anyone tried cutting the AZL couplers off the wheelsets? How easy
      > is that? Then you would perforce have to go to body-mount couplers,
      > not
      > overly difficult, but a source of aggravation and an extra expense
      > in a
      > hobby that is already not the cheapest.
      >
      > CheerZ,
      > -- Malcolm Z
      >
      >
      >



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Alan Cox
      On Fri, 2 May 2008 10:38:10 -0400 ... They don t run on the track as well as metal ones, they also gradually leave tiny amounts of plastic residue on the track
      Message 2 of 16 , May 2, 2008
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        On Fri, 2 May 2008 10:38:10 -0400
        George Evans <gevans@...> wrote:

        > Again i am new to this hobby. What is wrong with plastic wheels?

        They don't run on the track as well as metal ones, they also gradually
        leave tiny amounts of plastic residue on the track which is a real pita to
        remove.

        Its a big deal if run a large exhibition layout where the trains run many
        miles (real not scale) in a day but hardly a big problem for a small
        setup.

        Alan
      • Uwe Liermann
        Hello George, ... if you want to install lights in a car as you can see here: http://www.passmann.com/ or for additional power pick up you need metal wheels.
        Message 3 of 16 , May 2, 2008
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          Hello George,

          > What is wrong with plastic wheels?

          if you want to install lights in a car as you can see here:

          http://www.passmann.com/

          or for additional power pick up you need metal wheels.

          --
          GreetingZ
          Uwe
        • Allan Borg
          I don t find that plastic wheels leave deposits on the track so much as the track leaving metal deposits on the wheels. That is usually as a result of runnung
          Message 4 of 16 , May 2, 2008
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            I don't find that plastic wheels leave deposits on the track so much as
            the track leaving metal deposits on the wheels. That is usually as a
            result of runnung a bright boy over the rails which leaves a little
            metal powder on the railheads unless you go over it with a swab of
            alcohol.
            Allan Borg
            --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Alan Cox <alan@...> wrote:
            >
            > On Fri, 2 May 2008 10:38:10 -0400
            > George Evans <gevans@...> wrote:
            >
            > > Again i am new to this hobby. What is wrong with plastic wheels?
            >
            > They don't run on the track as well as metal ones, they also gradually
            > leave tiny amounts of plastic residue on the track which is a real
            pita to
            > remove.
            >
            > Its a big deal if run a large exhibition layout where the trains run
            many
            > miles (real not scale) in a day but hardly a big problem for a small
            > setup.
            >
            > Alan
            >
          • John Mui
            Malcom, there is a four way. I change the put the guts of a MTL coupler into a AZL truck. I describe the how to in Traiboard. I made a video of the automatic
            Message 5 of 16 , May 2, 2008
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              Malcom, there is a four way. I change the put the guts of a MTL coupler into
              a AZL truck. I describe the how to in Traiboard. I made a video of the
              automatic uncoupling. The train is a little jumpy, because I have a hard
              time controlling the train and taking video at the same time. The CSX hopper
              has the converted truck.

              (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvyAJ1i0wa0)

              John
            • Glen Chenier
              ... pita to ... many ... And the plastic wheel residue tends to build up in clumps at rail joints. Don t know why, maybe the residue collected on the wheel
              Message 6 of 16 , May 2, 2008
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                --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Alan Cox <alan@...> wrote:
                >
                > On Fri, 2 May 2008 10:38:10 -0400
                > George Evans <gevans@...> wrote:
                >
                > > Again i am new to this hobby. What is wrong with plastic wheels?
                >
                > They don't run on the track as well as metal ones, they also gradually
                > leave tiny amounts of plastic residue on the track which is a real
                pita to
                > remove.
                >
                > Its a big deal if run a large exhibition layout where the trains run
                many
                > miles (real not scale) in a day but hardly a big problem for a small
                > setup.
                >
                > Alan
                >

                And the plastic wheel residue tends to build up in clumps at rail
                joints. Don't know why, maybe the residue collected on the wheel
                treads gets jolted off at the joint bump. This happens in all scales,
                metal vs plastic is an often discussed topic on many forums.

                Has anyone ever compared plastic buildup with and without Wahl Oil on
                the rails? The plastic wears most on curves, the fixed axle and
                unequal rail circumference means that the wheels are always scraping on
                the rail slightly rather than completely free-rolling, even with the
                angled tread profile. A Wahl Oil film may (or may not) reduce plastic
                wear due to rail scraping.

                Would be an interesting experiment...
              • David K. Smith
                Alan-- In some circles, the Wahl Clipper oil subject will raise some heated arguments. Some swear by it. Others swear over it. A buddy of mine and I have been
                Message 7 of 16 , May 2, 2008
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                  Alan--

                  In some circles, the Wahl Clipper oil subject will raise some heated
                  arguments. Some swear by it. Others swear over it. A buddy of mine
                  and I have been running his (huge) N scale layout together for over
                  35 years. He tried the Wahl oil once, and it took months to recover
                  from the disaster. A tiny amount of oil produced an incredible mess
                  that spread everywhere, even to areas where the oil was not applied.
                  It knocked the heck out of the pulling power of every locomotive (it
                  will destroy most traction tires, too), and it became a magnet for
                  dust and dirt.

                  After decades of running trains for long periods of time, we have
                  never seen any noticable amounts of wear on plastic wheels. Delrin is
                  a very tough, slippery plastic, and model cars are so very light,
                  that wear is virtually non-existent. Arguments have arisen over what
                  constitutes the gunk that collects on the wheels and track. We have
                  analyzed the gunk and found that it's ordinary household dust and
                  dirt, which is bound together into the familar gunk by a combination
                  of the thin, slightly oily residue present on the surface of Delrin,
                  small amounts of lubricant released from locomotives, and humidity in
                  the air.

                  Some modelers claim the gunk contains carbon as a result of
                  electrical arcing. This is physically impossible as there is no
                  source of carbon: rails are nickel, and wheels are nickel, brass or
                  plastic. No carbon in them, or in the atmosphere; plus, there isn't
                  enough current present to produce much in the way of arcing (we've
                  only seen some slight arcing at dead shorts, and none during normal
                  operation). About the only place you'll see actual carbon deposits in
                  a model railroad is on motor armatures, which is being worn off of
                  the compressed carbon brushes by friction.

                  We have found that plastic wheels accumulate more gunk than metal and
                  have concluded that this is due to a small static electric charge
                  that can build up from the friction between the plastic wheels and
                  the metal rails, particularly on curves where one wheel is always
                  slipping a tiny amount. The static charge on the plastic attracts
                  dirt, and over time it builds up into a layer of gunk, which is
                  sometimes deposited back onto the rails. Metal wheels do not
                  accumulate a static charge, and thus don't accumulate much gunk,
                  except what they pick up from the rails by friction.

                  Some modelers swear by certain rail cleaners that the makers claim to
                  be electrically conductive. There is no cleaning solution made that
                  is even the slightest bit electrically conductive--we've tested a lot
                  of them. The claims of being electrically conductive are all bogus.
                  Claims that the cleaners improve electrical conductivity are correct,
                  but only by virtue of the fact that the rail is being cleaned;
                  anything that cleans metal will improve conductivity--even a
                  fingernail, for that matter.

                  Scratches in the surface of the rails are claimed by some to degrade
                  conductivity, which is the basis for warnings against using abrasive
                  blocks. But, if you examine brand new rail under high magnification,
                  you'll see that it already looks badly scratched--this is due to the
                  mechanical process of drawing wire into rail. Abrasive blocks don't
                  make anything worse. Some modelers will polish rail with polishing
                  compound, but the polishing compounds tend to leave residues behind
                  that make the gunk buildup problem worse.

                  Some brands of track are said to perform better than others, and it
                  appears this is true. "Nickel-silver" (which contains no silver,
                  actually) is a mixture of various metals, and the proportions of the
                  different metals can affect electrical conductivity, oxidation rates,
                  and the tendency of the rails to accumulate dirt. Different brands of
                  track will have different metal composition--sometimes you can even
                  see variations in the color. Thus, different brands of track may
                  perform differently.

                  After decades of running, experimenting and testing, we've found the
                  best way to clean wheels is by just moistening a paper towel with
                  alcohol, laying it on some flex track, and rolling cars back and
                  forth over it. To clean track, we just wipe the rails with a block of
                  soft wood. Solvent cleaners just tend to make a mess, abrasive blocks
                  are overkill and also leave abrasive debris behind, and most
                  commercial track cleaners built into freight cars are ineffective.

                  Food for thought!

                  --David

                  http://jamesriverbranch.net/
                  http://1-220.blogspot.com/


                  --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Glen Chenier" <glen@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Alan Cox <alan@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > On Fri, 2 May 2008 10:38:10 -0400
                  > > George Evans <gevans@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > Again i am new to this hobby. What is wrong with plastic wheels?
                  > >
                  > > They don't run on the track as well as metal ones, they also
                  gradually
                  > > leave tiny amounts of plastic residue on the track which is a
                  real
                  > pita to
                  > > remove.
                  > >
                  > > Its a big deal if run a large exhibition layout where the trains
                  run
                  > many
                  > > miles (real not scale) in a day but hardly a big problem for a
                  small
                  > > setup.
                  > >
                  > > Alan
                  > >
                  >
                  > And the plastic wheel residue tends to build up in clumps at rail
                  > joints. Don't know why, maybe the residue collected on the wheel
                  > treads gets jolted off at the joint bump. This happens in all
                  scales,
                  > metal vs plastic is an often discussed topic on many forums.
                  >
                  > Has anyone ever compared plastic buildup with and without Wahl Oil
                  on
                  > the rails? The plastic wears most on curves, the fixed axle and
                  > unequal rail circumference means that the wheels are always
                  scraping on
                  > the rail slightly rather than completely free-rolling, even with
                  the
                  > angled tread profile. A Wahl Oil film may (or may not) reduce
                  plastic
                  > wear due to rail scraping.
                  >
                  > Would be an interesting experiment...
                  >
                • John Cubbin
                  Very informative post David, thanks for elaborating on your experiences. At the end of the day I too have chosen the soft blocks of wood and alcohol tandem. I
                  Message 8 of 16 , May 2, 2008
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                    Very informative post David, thanks for elaborating on your
                    experiences. At the end of the day I too have chosen the soft blocks
                    of wood and alcohol tandem. I do use Goo Gone once in a great while
                    followed by the alcohol, but more often than not, it's just balsa and
                    alcohol:

                    http://www.ztrains.com/pages/tech/simple/simple.html

                    John
                    htp://www.ztrains.com
                  • viktor_kovacs
                    ... Your oppinion clearly indicates that you don t really run old small marklin locos on your track. The br89 and a few other engines have their motor fixed in
                    Message 9 of 16 , May 3, 2008
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                      --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "David K. Smith" <david@...> wrote:
                      > Some modelers claim the gunk contains carbon as a result of
                      > electrical arcing. This is physically impossible as there is no
                      > source of carbon: rails are nickel, and wheels are nickel, brass or
                      > plastic. No carbon in them, or in the atmosphere; plus, there isn't
                      > enough current present to produce much in the way of arcing (we've
                      > only seen some slight arcing at dead shorts, and none during normal
                      > operation). About the only place you'll see actual carbon deposits in
                      > a model railroad is on motor armatures, which is being worn off of
                      > the compressed carbon brushes by friction.

                      Your oppinion clearly indicates that you don't really run old
                      small marklin locos on your track. The br89 and a few other
                      engines have their motor fixed in a vertical position. The design
                      is that the motor sucks air (and dust) from below and hot air
                      leaves through the windows. The position of the motor results
                      in a situation that the brushes are mounted below the motor,
                      very close the rails and don't have anything below them. You
                      can actually check the condition of the brushes by turning the
                      engine upside down. All carbon dust that falls off the brushes
                      goes directly onto the track. These small locos also tend to
                      arc a lot, especially the old 8800 series, where the starting
                      voltage is much higher than on modern ones, so sometimes
                      you have to give 5 volts to make the loco run, while most modern
                      motors start to turn above 2.5-3 volts. Personally I see three
                      sources for gunk: household dust, carbon from the engines,
                      oil dripping from the open geartrains and all this mixed together
                      by the arcing of the locos. Since I don't use plastic wheels,
                      they can't contribute to dirty track. (metal wheels tend to derail
                      less, cut switches easily and sound much nicer)

                      For cleaning I use a lens cleaner cloth. This is a nonabrasive way
                      to get the rails clean and if chemical cleaning is required, pure
                      alcohol is usually more than enough. The only important thing is
                      to make sure the inner vertical edge of the railheads are clean
                      too, since many locos use it for electrical pickup in curves.
                    • Alan Cox
                      ... The residue from the plastics is the problem (I should have been more precise). For the Z layout its ok as I don t have too much track to clean. In N where
                      Message 10 of 16 , May 3, 2008
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                        > of the thin, slightly oily residue present on the surface of Delrin,
                        > small amounts of lubricant released from locomotives, and humidity in
                        > the air.

                        The residue from the plastics is the problem (I should have been more
                        precise). For the Z layout its ok as I don't have too much track to
                        clean. In N where I have rather more trackwork the plastic wheels are
                        simply banned from the layout - and that makes it noticably easier to
                        keep clean.

                        > Some modelers claim the gunk contains carbon as a result of
                        > electrical arcing. This is physically impossible as there is no
                        > source of carbon: rails are nickel, and wheels are nickel, brass or

                        Relco and Gaugemaster cleaners will certainly put burned pits on the
                        track and wheels. I've no idea what the chemical make up is.

                        > appears this is true. "Nickel-silver" (which contains no silver,
                        > actually) is a mixture of various metals, and the proportions of the
                        > different metals can affect electrical conductivity, oxidation rates,
                        > and the tendency of the rails to accumulate dirt. Different brands of
                        > track will have different metal composition--sometimes you can even
                        > see variations in the color. Thus, different brands of track may
                        > perform differently.

                        Nickel silver reacts badly with some atmospheres. One layout I'm vaguely
                        involved with is in the loco shed at a heritage railway. The track needs
                        regular cleaning as something (probably the sulphur in the coal of the
                        large locos it shares the shed with) reacts with it quite well.

                        > best way to clean wheels is by just moistening a paper towel with
                        > alcohol, laying it on some flex track, and rolling cars back and
                        > forth over it. To clean track, we just wipe the rails with a block of
                        > soft wood. Solvent cleaners just tend to make a mess, abrasive blocks
                        > are overkill and also leave abrasive debris behind, and most
                        > commercial track cleaners built into freight cars are ineffective.

                        The Marklin cleaning wagon (*not* the silly railgrinding railbus) is
                        excellent for stopping dirt build up. Its one Marklin purchase I am very
                        very happy with. Once you get real dirt build up it won't help but it
                        delays that a long time and its easy to slip into a regular train when
                        running.

                        One other useful tool missing from Z is the automatic wheel cleaning
                        tracks such as the Tomix N scale one.

                        Alan
                      • David K. Smith
                        True, I don t run these locos any more (although I used to have a few of them). But my point is that the carbon present on the wheels and rails is not a result
                        Message 11 of 16 , May 3, 2008
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                          True, I don't run these locos any more (although I used to have a few
                          of them). But my point is that the carbon present on the wheels and
                          rails is not a result of electical arcing between them, as some
                          contend. Carbon can certainly be present from other sources, such as
                          armatures. It is doubtful, however, that the arcing of the armature
                          is involved with the actual production of the final gunk mixture, as
                          this would mean the armature is filled with dirt, oil and the other
                          components of the gunk, which is unlikely; the gunk is more likely
                          still being produced by a mechanical process involving the friction
                          of wheels and rails, and acquires carbon thrown off of the armature.
                          And the higher voltage required by this loco is more likely a result
                          of its age and design.

                          --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "viktor_kovacs" <viktor_kovacs@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "David K. Smith" <david@> wrote:
                          > > Some modelers claim the gunk contains carbon as a result of
                          > > electrical arcing. This is physically impossible as there is no
                          > > source of carbon: rails are nickel, and wheels are nickel, brass
                          or
                          > > plastic. No carbon in them, or in the atmosphere; plus, there
                          isn't
                          > > enough current present to produce much in the way of arcing
                          (we've
                          > > only seen some slight arcing at dead shorts, and none during
                          normal
                          > > operation). About the only place you'll see actual carbon
                          deposits in
                          > > a model railroad is on motor armatures, which is being worn off
                          of
                          > > the compressed carbon brushes by friction.
                          >
                          > Your oppinion clearly indicates that you don't really run old
                          > small marklin locos on your track. The br89 and a few other
                          > engines have their motor fixed in a vertical position. The design
                          > is that the motor sucks air (and dust) from below and hot air
                          > leaves through the windows. The position of the motor results
                          > in a situation that the brushes are mounted below the motor,
                          > very close the rails and don't have anything below them. You
                          > can actually check the condition of the brushes by turning the
                          > engine upside down. All carbon dust that falls off the brushes
                          > goes directly onto the track. These small locos also tend to
                          > arc a lot, especially the old 8800 series, where the starting
                          > voltage is much higher than on modern ones, so sometimes
                          > you have to give 5 volts to make the loco run, while most modern
                          > motors start to turn above 2.5-3 volts. Personally I see three
                          > sources for gunk: household dust, carbon from the engines,
                          > oil dripping from the open geartrains and all this mixed together
                          > by the arcing of the locos. Since I don't use plastic wheels,
                          > they can't contribute to dirty track. (metal wheels tend to derail
                          > less, cut switches easily and sound much nicer)
                          >
                          > For cleaning I use a lens cleaner cloth. This is a nonabrasive way
                          > to get the rails clean and if chemical cleaning is required, pure
                          > alcohol is usually more than enough. The only important thing is
                          > to make sure the inner vertical edge of the railheads are clean
                          > too, since many locos use it for electrical pickup in curves.
                          >
                        • David K. Smith
                          Alan-- It s true that *some* commercial rail cleaning cars can be effective; I wasn t going to go into detail as to which ones. The point was that many of them
                          Message 12 of 16 , May 3, 2008
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                            Alan--

                            It's true that *some* commercial rail cleaning cars can be effective;
                            I wasn't going to go into detail as to which ones. The point was that
                            many of them aren't, particulary the ones with rollers.

                            Actually, what I've found to work best is the old Masonite block
                            under the boxcar trick. Cut a rectangle of Masonite to the width of
                            the track ties, and a length that fits between the trucks of a
                            boxcar. Orient it with the softer, irregular side facing down, and
                            expoxy the heads of two small brads to the smooth, hard side. Drill
                            two holes in the boxcar underbody to align with the nails. Place the
                            nails into the holes under the car, put it on the track, and drag it
                            around in a train. It's amazing the gunk these things pick up.

                            --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Alan Cox <alan@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > of the thin, slightly oily residue present on the surface of
                            Delrin,
                            > > small amounts of lubricant released from locomotives, and
                            humidity in
                            > > the air.
                            >
                            > The residue from the plastics is the problem (I should have been
                            more
                            > precise). For the Z layout its ok as I don't have too much track to
                            > clean. In N where I have rather more trackwork the plastic wheels
                            are
                            > simply banned from the layout - and that makes it noticably easier
                            to
                            > keep clean.
                            >
                            > > Some modelers claim the gunk contains carbon as a result of
                            > > electrical arcing. This is physically impossible as there is no
                            > > source of carbon: rails are nickel, and wheels are nickel, brass
                            or
                            >
                            > Relco and Gaugemaster cleaners will certainly put burned pits on the
                            > track and wheels. I've no idea what the chemical make up is.
                            >
                            > > appears this is true. "Nickel-silver" (which contains no silver,
                            > > actually) is a mixture of various metals, and the proportions of
                            the
                            > > different metals can affect electrical conductivity, oxidation
                            rates,
                            > > and the tendency of the rails to accumulate dirt. Different
                            brands of
                            > > track will have different metal composition--sometimes you can
                            even
                            > > see variations in the color. Thus, different brands of track may
                            > > perform differently.
                            >
                            > Nickel silver reacts badly with some atmospheres. One layout I'm
                            vaguely
                            > involved with is in the loco shed at a heritage railway. The track
                            needs
                            > regular cleaning as something (probably the sulphur in the coal of
                            the
                            > large locos it shares the shed with) reacts with it quite well.
                            >
                            > > best way to clean wheels is by just moistening a paper towel with
                            > > alcohol, laying it on some flex track, and rolling cars back and
                            > > forth over it. To clean track, we just wipe the rails with a
                            block of
                            > > soft wood. Solvent cleaners just tend to make a mess, abrasive
                            blocks
                            > > are overkill and also leave abrasive debris behind, and most
                            > > commercial track cleaners built into freight cars are ineffective.
                            >
                            > The Marklin cleaning wagon (*not* the silly railgrinding railbus) is
                            > excellent for stopping dirt build up. Its one Marklin purchase I am
                            very
                            > very happy with. Once you get real dirt build up it won't help but
                            it
                            > delays that a long time and its easy to slip into a regular train
                            when
                            > running.
                            >
                            > One other useful tool missing from Z is the automatic wheel cleaning
                            > tracks such as the Tomix N scale one.
                            >
                            > Alan
                            >
                          • Jim Glass
                            What is the model number of the Marklin cleaning wagon ? Jim [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            Message 13 of 16 , May 3, 2008
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                              What is the model number of the "Marklin cleaning wagon"?

                              Jim

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Uwe Liermann
                              Hello Jim, ... it s 86501 -- GreetingZ Uwe
                              Message 14 of 16 , May 3, 2008
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                                Hello Jim,

                                > What is the model number of the "Marklin cleaning wagon"?

                                it's 86501



                                --
                                GreetingZ
                                Uwe
                              • Uwe Liermann
                                Hello again Jim, I just forgot for a moment, but recently I wrote about this in another ... and I wrote: well, that depends on the user I believe. As far as I
                                Message 15 of 16 , May 3, 2008
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                                  Hello again Jim,

                                  I just forgot for a moment, but recently I wrote about this in another
                                  forum. There the question was:

                                  > Ok, what would be considered the Best Z scale Track Cleaning car on
                                  > the market???????

                                  and I wrote:

                                  well, that depends on the user I believe. As far as I know there are
                                  four different pieces of cars on the market:

                                  the Aztec car

                                  the Maerklin Indusi car 88021

                                  the Maerklin 86501 (originally from Manfred Jörger)

                                  a second car from Manfred Jörger, based on the Maerklin 8622 open
                                  freigth car.

                                  Since I own the 86501, this is the best for me. I won't use any car
                                  that uses any abrasive technics to work. If the track is so dirty that
                                  I need that, I did something wrong in the first place. Besides I can
                                  soak the pad with alcohol, and push it with the fingers to loosen the
                                  dirt first before I use a locomotive to push or pull the car for some
                                  laps.

                                  I haven't seen the 8622 car from Jörger yet, but some people said that
                                  this one is even better then the 86501 because of the two axle
                                  configuration versus the truck, but I don't know why this should make
                                  a difference.

                                  Both the Aztec and the Maerklin Indusi car use an abrasive method for
                                  track cleaning, whereas the cars with the Joerger system have a
                                  special kind of cloth under the body, which can be used dry or you can
                                  soak it with a fluid if you want.


                                  --
                                  GreetingZ
                                  Uwe
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