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Re: Turnout Derailment

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  • Garth Hamilton
    I would look closely at one car going through the turn out and you might find that the back to back on the Marklin wheel sets of the problem car is too small
    Message 1 of 15 , Feb 29, 2008
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      I would look closely at one car going through the turn out and you
      might find that the back to back on the Marklin wheel sets of the
      problem car is too small or tight and the wheel set can not pass
      through the two guard rails. This usually causes a wheel pop up on the
      guard rail beside the frog.

      regards
      Garth

      --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "apoulo" <apoulo@...> wrote:
      >
      > I'm new to the group and relatively new to z scale. I am experiencing
      > a problem running Marklin cars over MTL turnouts. The problem only
      > occurs on right hand turnouts when making a right hand turn. Marklin
      > cars derail a high percentage of the time while MTL cars have no
      > problem. My guess is the problem lies with the Marklin couplers. I
      > think the coupler of the first car is exerting an outside pressure on
      > the following car, causing it to want to go straight and jumping the
      > switch.
      >
      > I'm not sure my analysis is correct, and even if it is, I can't
      figure
      > out a solution. Has any one else experienced this problem, and does
      > any one have a solution?
      >
    • Andrew Poulo
      Hi Garth, Thanks for the response to my question, but I m not sure I understand what you mean by the back to back on the Marklin wheel sets. Let me also give
      Message 2 of 15 , Mar 1, 2008
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        Hi Garth,

        Thanks for the response to my question, but I'm not sure I understand
        what you mean by the "back to back on the Marklin wheel sets." Let me
        also give you some additional information. I have a variety of Marklin
        American freight and passenger cars. If allowed to roll through the
        turnout alone, every car will make the turn smoothly. If coupled
        together in any conceivable combination, the second car will always
        fail to make the turn because of what you describe as a wheel pop.

        Any additional thoughts?

        Thanks,

        Andy Poulo



        On Feb 29, 2008, at 7:23 PM, Garth Hamilton wrote:

        > I would look closely at one car going through the turn out and you
        > might find that the back to back on the Marklin wheel sets of the
        > problem car is too small or tight and the wheel set can not pass
        > through the two guard rails. This usually causes a wheel pop up on the
        > guard rail beside the frog.
        >
        > regards
        > Garth
        >
        > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "apoulo" <apoulo@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > I'm new to the group and relatively new to z scale. I am
        > experiencing
        > > a problem running Marklin cars over MTL turnouts. The problem only
        > > occurs on right hand turnouts when making a right hand turn. Marklin
        > > cars derail a high percentage of the time while MTL cars have no
        > > problem. My guess is the problem lies with the Marklin couplers. I
        > > think the coupler of the first car is exerting an outside pressure
        > on
        > > the following car, causing it to want to go straight and jumping the
        > > switch.
        > >
        > > I'm not sure my analysis is correct, and even if it is, I can't
        > figure
        > > out a solution. Has any one else experienced this problem, and does
        > > any one have a solution?
        > >
        >
        >
        >

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Garth Hamilton
        Hi Andy; The back to back measurement of a wheel set is the distance between the back fo the two wheels located on teh same axle. THis distance has to be
        Message 3 of 15 , Mar 1, 2008
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          Hi Andy;

          The "back to back" measurement of a wheel set is the distance between
          the back fo the two wheels located on teh same axle. THis distance
          has to be slightly larger than the distance between the inside of the
          guard rails on the inside of outside rail and the one on the inside
          of the frog. So you are checking whether the flange of the wheel set
          can pass through this tight clearance without binding. If the wheels
          are too far apart the flange will climb the point of the frog and if
          they too close together and the wheel will climb the bend in the
          point rail where it transitions to be come the guard rail for one
          side of the frog.

          It is not uncommon for a car to roll through the switch without
          derailing when going through on its own as one wheel at a time can
          climb the tight spot and return to the track. IF you watch closely
          you can see the car and truck bumb over the tighness. The most common
          cause is being too tight as being to wide will cause problems
          elsewhere in the track work. The marklin wheels can be moved on the
          axle but you need to realize that it may not require a movement of
          more than a 32nd of an inch or even a 64th of an inch to solve the
          porblem.

          Micro Trains makes a coupler height gauge Part No. 920 in the old
          numbering system which will also function as a track gague and a
          wheel back to back gauge. Some of us have a back to back gauge made
          of brass or aluminum that looks something like a horseshoe which we
          can slide between the two wheels on an axle to set them for the
          correct back to back distance.

          Hope that helps you

          cheers
          Garth



          --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Poulo <apoulo@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Garth,
          >
          > Thanks for the response to my question, but I'm not sure I
          understand
          > what you mean by the "back to back on the Marklin wheel sets." Let
          me
          > also give you some additional information. I have a variety of
          Marklin
          > American freight and passenger cars. If allowed to roll through the
          > turnout alone, every car will make the turn smoothly. If coupled
          > together in any conceivable combination, the second car will always
          > fail to make the turn because of what you describe as a wheel pop.
          >
          > Any additional thoughts?
          >
          > Thanks,
          >
          > Andy Poulo
          >
          >
          >
          > On Feb 29, 2008, at 7:23 PM, Garth Hamilton wrote:
          >
          > > I would look closely at one car going through the turn out and you
          > > might find that the back to back on the Marklin wheel sets of the
          > > problem car is too small or tight and the wheel set can not pass
          > > through the two guard rails. This usually causes a wheel pop up
          on the
          > > guard rail beside the frog.
          > >
          > > regards
          > > Garth
          > >
          > > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "apoulo" <apoulo@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > I'm new to the group and relatively new to z scale. I am
          > > experiencing
          > > > a problem running Marklin cars over MTL turnouts. The problem
          only
          > > > occurs on right hand turnouts when making a right hand turn.
          Marklin
          > > > cars derail a high percentage of the time while MTL cars have
          no
          > > > problem. My guess is the problem lies with the Marklin
          couplers. I
          > > > think the coupler of the first car is exerting an outside
          pressure
          > > on
          > > > the following car, causing it to want to go straight and
          jumping the
          > > > switch.
          > > >
          > > > I'm not sure my analysis is correct, and even if it is, I can't
          > > figure
          > > > out a solution. Has any one else experienced this problem, and
          does
          > > > any one have a solution?
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • dpstripe@aol.com
          Andy, What Garth was describing is a wheel gauge problem. A lot of marklin stock has problems going through MT turnouts. The wheel gauge on Marklin is slightly
          Message 4 of 15 , Mar 1, 2008
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            Andy,
            What Garth was describing is a wheel gauge problem. A lot of marklin stock
            has problems going through MT turnouts. The wheel gauge on Marklin is slightly
            narrower than MT. When you roll a single car through the turnout, watch
            carefully to see if there is any disturbance. Even a slight one. A single car can
            often set itself back on the track. Multiple cars have the additional force
            of the car ahead pulling it and further lifting it off the track.
            Dan S.


            In a message dated 3/1/2008 1:28:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
            apoulo@... writes:

            Hi Garth,

            Thanks for the response to my question, but I'm not sure I understand
            what you mean by the "back to back on the Marklin wheel sets." Let me
            also give you some additional information. I have a variety of Marklin
            American freight and passenger cars. If allowed to roll through the
            turnout alone, every car will make the turn smoothly. If coupled
            together in any conceivable combination, the second car will always
            fail to make the turn because of what you describe as a wheel pop.

            Any additional thoughts?

            Thanks,

            Andy Poulo






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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • de Champeaux Dominique
            Did you check Marklin car s axle gauge with a MTL gauge? Dom ... _____________________________________________________________________________ Ne gardez plus
            Message 5 of 15 , Mar 2, 2008
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              Did you check Marklin car's axle gauge with a MTL
              gauge?

              Dom




              --- apoulo <apoulo@...> a écrit :

              > I'm new to the group and relatively new to z scale.
              > I am experiencing
              > a problem running Marklin cars over MTL turnouts.
              > The problem only
              > occurs on right hand turnouts when making a right
              > hand turn. Marklin
              > cars derail a high percentage of the time while MTL
              > cars have no
              > problem. My guess is the problem lies with the
              > Marklin couplers. I
              > think the coupler of the first car is exerting an
              > outside pressure on
              > the following car, causing it to want to go straight
              > and jumping the
              > switch.
              >
              > I'm not sure my analysis is correct, and even if it
              > is, I can't figure
              > out a solution. Has any one else experienced this
              > problem, and does
              > any one have a solution?
              >
              >



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              Ne gardez plus qu'une seule adresse mail ! Copiez vos mails vers Yahoo! Mail http://mail.yahoo.fr
            • Alex
              Garth, Can you post a photo of this back to back gauge ? Is this some thing easy to make? Thank you, Alex Tokyo, Japan TechRepL1011
              Message 6 of 15 , Mar 3, 2008
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                Garth,

                Can you post a photo of this "back to back gauge"?
                Is this some thing easy to make?

                Thank you,
                Alex
                Tokyo, Japan
                TechRepL1011

                --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Garth Hamilton" <garthah@...> wrote:
                >
                > Some of us have a back to back gauge made
                > of brass or aluminum that looks something like a horseshoe which we
                > can slide between the two wheels on an axle to set them for the
                > correct back to back distance.
                >
                > Garth
              • Andrew Poulo
                Hi Garth and Dan, Thanks for the advice and additional explanations. You guys were right on with your diagnosis. Now all I have to do is set up some kind of
                Message 7 of 15 , Mar 3, 2008
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                  Hi Garth and Dan,

                  Thanks for the advice and additional explanations. You guys were right
                  on with your diagnosis. Now all I have to do is set up some kind of
                  assembly line to adjust and paint (I dislike the silver) all the
                  Marklin wheels. I followed your advise and ordered a MTL Gauge from the
                  internet, and will start as soon as it arrives.

                  I just posted some photos of the first phase of my layout. The album is
                  called Royal Gorge Line. I'm building it on a two foot shelf which runs
                  around three sides of an 8' x 10' garden shed. The photos are of the
                  first 2' x 8' section. Two other sections will depict Florence and
                  Pueblo Colorado.

                  Once again, thanks for the advice.

                  Andy Poulo
                • pinekirk
                  hello andy, i like your layout. if you want any info or pictures (as available) from the area, drop me a line. it s always good to see modelers focusing in
                  Message 8 of 15 , Mar 3, 2008
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                    hello andy,
                    i like your layout. if you want any info or pictures (as available)
                    from the area, drop me a line. it's always good to see modelers
                    focusing in on colorado routes.
                    dave f.
                    canon city, co

                    --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Poulo <apoulo@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Garth and Dan,
                    >
                    > Thanks for the advice and additional explanations. You guys were
                    right
                    > on with your diagnosis. Now all I have to do is set up some kind of
                    > assembly line to adjust and paint (I dislike the silver) all the
                    > Marklin wheels. I followed your advise and ordered a MTL Gauge from
                    the
                    > internet, and will start as soon as it arrives.
                    >
                    > I just posted some photos of the first phase of my layout. The
                    album is
                    > called Royal Gorge Line. I'm building it on a two foot shelf which
                    runs
                    > around three sides of an 8' x 10' garden shed. The photos are of
                    the
                    > first 2' x 8' section. Two other sections will depict Florence and
                    > Pueblo Colorado.
                    >
                    > Once again, thanks for the advice.
                    >
                    > Andy Poulo
                    >
                  • Uwe Liermann
                    Hello Alex, ... here s a picture of one version of this tool: http://www.1zu220-modelle.de/20_1.htm the start page is here: http://www.1zu220-modelle.de --
                    Message 9 of 15 , Mar 3, 2008
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                      Hello Alex,

                      > Garth,

                      Ok.. I'm not Garth, but I bought a tool for this too:

                      > Can you post a photo of this "back to back gauge"?
                      > Is this some thing easy to make?

                      here's a picture of one version of this tool:

                      http://www.1zu220-modelle.de/20_1.htm

                      the start page is here:

                      http://www.1zu220-modelle.de


                      --
                      GreetingZ
                      Uwe
                    • Garth Hamilton
                      Hi Alex; Here is a link to the Micro Trains site and a picture of the part. IF there is no link then copy
                      Message 10 of 15 , Mar 3, 2008
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                        Hi Alex;

                        Here is a link to the Micro Trains site and a picture of the part.

                        <http://www.micro-trains.com/tools_height_gauge.php>

                        IF there is no link then copy paste into your browser window.

                        cheers
                        Garth

                        --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" <butasama@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Garth,
                        >
                        > Can you post a photo of this "back to back gauge"?
                        > Is this some thing easy to make?
                        >
                        > Thank you,
                        > Alex
                        > Tokyo, Japan
                        > TechRepL1011
                        >
                        > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Garth Hamilton" <garthah@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Some of us have a back to back gauge made
                        > > of brass or aluminum that looks something like a horseshoe which
                        we
                        > > can slide between the two wheels on an axle to set them for the
                        > > correct back to back distance.
                        > >
                        > > Garth
                        >
                      • David George
                        Andy, Welcome to our Z World. Colorado is one of my interests also. Take a look at my web site for a few pictures of the Royal George Gorge on the Golden ~
                        Message 11 of 15 , Mar 3, 2008
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                          Andy,
                          Welcome to our Z World.
                          Colorado is one of my interests also.
                          Take a look at my web site for a few pictures of the "Royal George Gorge" on the "Golden ~ Blackhawk & Central city R.R."

                          http://misterdavezscale.blogspot.com

                          At last photo ,in first scheme ,click on "older posts" for more photos.

                          Good luck in your modeling endeavors.
                          Cordially,
                          Mister Dave
                          "G ~ & C C"
                          Spring , Tx.
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Andrew Poulo
                          To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 9:15 AM
                          Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: Turnout Derailment


                          Hi Garth and Dan,

                          Thanks for the advice and additional explanations. You guys were right
                          on with your diagnosis. Now all I have to do is set up some kind of
                          assembly line to adjust and paint (I dislike the silver) all the
                          Marklin wheels. I followed your advise and ordered a MTL Gauge from the
                          internet, and will start as soon as it arrives.

                          I just posted some photos of the first phase of my layout. The album is
                          called Royal Gorge Line. I'm building it on a two foot shelf which runs
                          around three sides of an 8' x 10' garden shed. The photos are of the
                          first 2' x 8' section. Two other sections will depict Florence and
                          Pueblo Colorado.

                          Once again, thanks for the advice.

                          Andy Poulo





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Andrew Poulo
                          Hi Dave, Thanks for the kind words and offer. I chose the Royal Gorge area because of the railroad war. It gave me an excuse to run Santa Fe and D&GRW trains
                          Message 12 of 15 , Mar 4, 2008
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                            Hi Dave,

                            Thanks for the kind words and offer. I chose the Royal Gorge area
                            because of the railroad war. It gave me an excuse to run Santa Fe and
                            D&GRW trains together. Although I have never been there, I feel I know
                            every mile of track between Canon City and Pueblo. I have used Google
                            Earth many times to run the route.

                            Andy Poulo


                            On Mar 3, 2008, at 8:31 AM, pinekirk wrote:

                            > hello andy,
                            > i like your layout. if you want any info or pictures (as available)
                            > from the area, drop me a line. it's always good to see modelers
                            > focusing in on colorado routes.
                            > dave f.
                            > canon city, co
                            >


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Jeff BAZ-man
                            You can also use the NMRA Nn3 gauge. This stainless steel sheet has 2 fine pins for gaurd rails or just inside the rails or wheel flanges. For the life of
                            Message 13 of 15 , Mar 4, 2008
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                              You can also use the NMRA Nn3 gauge. This stainless steel sheet has
                              2 fine pins for gaurd rails or just inside the rails or wheel
                              flanges. For the life of me, I can't find a supplier of the NMRA
                              gage. Searched every combination of the names and cannot find one
                              that has it. Thought I got mine from Walthers, Nn3.org or RLW.

                              Jeff
                              SF Bay Area Z

                              --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Poulo <apoulo@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi Dave,
                              >
                              > Thanks for the kind words and offer. I chose the Royal Gorge area
                              > because of the railroad war. It gave me an excuse to run Santa Fe
                              and
                              > D&GRW trains together. Although I have never been there, I feel I
                              know
                              > every mile of track between Canon City and Pueblo. I have used
                              Google
                              > Earth many times to run the route.
                              >
                              > Andy Poulo
                              >
                              >
                              > On Mar 3, 2008, at 8:31 AM, pinekirk wrote:
                              >
                              > > hello andy,
                              > > i like your layout. if you want any info or pictures (as
                              available)
                              > > from the area, drop me a line. it's always good to see modelers
                              > > focusing in on colorado routes.
                              > > dave f.
                              > > canon city, co
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • stonysmith
                              Over at Fast Tracks is a wonderful video with 3D cad animation that explains how turnouts operate, and what measurements are critical for smooth operation.
                              Message 14 of 15 , Mar 4, 2008
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                                Over at Fast Tracks is a wonderful video with 3D cad animation that
                                explains how turnouts operate, and what measurements are critical
                                for smooth operation. The video is a bit long, but after watching
                                it, I figured out exactly what was going wrong with one of my
                                turnouts.

                                http://www.handlaidtrack.com/nmra-online.php


                                --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" <butasama@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Garth,
                                >
                                > Can you post a photo of this "back to back gauge"?
                                > Is this some thing easy to make?
                                >
                                > Thank you,
                                > Alex
                                > Tokyo, Japan
                                > TechRepL1011
                                >
                                > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Garth Hamilton" <garthah@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Some of us have a back to back gauge made
                                > > of brass or aluminum that looks something like a horseshoe which
                                we
                                > > can slide between the two wheels on an axle to set them for the
                                > > correct back to back distance.
                                > >
                                > > Garth
                                >
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