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Re: Z Stigma

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  • webffm@yahoo.com
    Great comments by Bill in Houston and nice ones from Bill in El Toro - - The bottom line is no matter what the layout, it is all good for the promotion and
    Message 1 of 15 , Aug 3, 2001
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      Great comments by Bill in Houston and nice ones from Bill in El Toro -
      - The bottom line is no matter what the layout, it is all good for
      the promotion and growth of the scale...Bill in Buffalo
    • D. A. Karp
      Hi all, This discussion of a Z stigma is very interesting to me. It seems as though some of us want Z to be taken seriously because it is small, and some of
      Message 2 of 15 , Aug 4, 2001
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        Hi all,

        This discussion of a Z stigma is very interesting to me. It seems as
        though some of us want Z to be taken seriously because it is small, and
        some of us want Z to be taken seriously in spite of the fact that it is small.

        I think both of these can happen, and Jeffrey's Val Ease Central is a
        terrific example of this. It's obviously been taken seriously (NTS 2001
        Best of Show). The fact that it is constructed in three suitcases brings
        attention to its small size, yet its detail and professionalism rivals any
        N or HO layout.

        I think anything we do to promote Z in any way helps us all. Just my $.02.

        -David
        ___________________________________________
        http://www.creativelement.com/z/
      • Bill Hoshiko
        ... From: jcubbin@optonline.net To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 9:50 AM Subject: [z_scale] Re: Z Stigma After reading the posts, I
        Message 3 of 15 , Aug 6, 2001
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          ----- Original Message -----
          From: jcubbin@...
          To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 9:50 AM
          Subject: [z_scale] Re: Z Stigma


          After reading the posts, I just think there is a divergence of Z mind-sets. I personally don't see a need for a concerted effort to reshape someone's concept of how Z scale modeling should be thought of
          <snip>

          The reason for the need to change minds is to persuade modelers who are participating in the other scales to switch to Z or just to add Z to their stable of model trains. Increased purchase of Z products could encourage more manufacturers to enter into the Z field. i.e.: encourage Atlas or Kato to manufacture Z scale tracks etc. This could also spur competition and bring about a reduction in prices. The manufacturers need a large market in order to recover their development costs quickly.

          During this summer I have visited several local model train shops that never displayed any Z. Now they have some Z trains on their shelves, both Marklin and MT. Perhaps this was a reflection of the economic prosperity prior to the recent market down swing, or maybe it's just that Z is gaining in popularity. After the exposure of Z that will appear in the model magazines showing the national train show perhaps we will have even more activity.

          I really liked that link:

          http://member.nifty.ne.jp/yuzi/


          Yuji does great work. Code 40 rail under his models could have helped the picture. His layout is a great example of understatement. Train, track, hills, telephone poles - no trestles, rock outcrops, trees, streams or buildings only enough to get his message across. This is a model of a train rolling along a western North American country side. Just the type of scenery where the prototype operated.

          And I have one to show as well, again it's Nn3:

          http://members.aol.com/elstad/nn3.html

          Yes, it is a fine example of modeling a real scene.

          Rather than have people look at photos and think it's HO, my goal is to have people look at photos and think it's the real thing. Lofty, I
          know... but that's the goal.

          I spent my first dollar on a model railroad item back in 1944. I have been observing the model railroad scene for a long time. I am firmly convinced that many model railroaders never actually venture out to study the real thing. They may go out to look at photograph and measure trains and locomotives but they seldom look at the track, roadbed, trackside structures or the landscape surrounding the railroad. Many of them get all of their information from model railroad publications. If you want your model to be mistaken for the real thing then you must go out and find a scene that you want to model, photograph it, and then build it. You do not need to make exact copies nor do you need instructions from model railroad magazines. You just need to do whatever is necessary to imitate your desired scene.

          One thing to remember is to never build a large site on a flat surface. All ground needs drainage and only in model railroads do you see perfectly flat railroad yards or city landscapes. If you need a large flat area please model some sort of drainage system. It is the small things that make your model look real. Some stagnant water in the middle of your yards for example.

          When you think that your scene looks perfect, then you must take photographs of it and examine the photos. Another trick is to look at it through a mirror. You will be surprised at the difference in the look. After you finish a model your eyes are drawn to those areas where you spent most of your effort. Looking at the photo makes your eyes look at the overall scene and you will spot things that you had overlooked. It is possible to build a layout that photographs very realistic but you must start out with that objective in mind.

          If you want to build a layout where you can run trains past you as if you are railfanning then you need a rather wide space. See:

          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/z_scale/files/Pics/Z_TrackShow/Zypher_Layout.JPG

          There are other pictures of this layout but I could not find them. I just don't remember the name of the builder. This is an excellent example of a layout that represents a section of railroad. If you have the space you can put return loops at each end of the scene and your trains will pass by traveling in both directions, and not just keep reappearing headed in the same direction.

          If you do not have the necessary large space, then you can build scenes like the British modelers do. See

          http://www.fielder-rowe.freeserve.co.uk/newproject.html

          There are ways to build a truly "photo" realistic model railroad scene. It just takes a lot of study and a dedication to do it. If you want to build a representation of a railroad with stations, railroad yards, locomotive maintenance shops, industrial sidings and a fair stretch of mainline you would require a very large space. And then again, you could get by with just three valises, get your layout featured in Model Railroader Magazine, and win "Best in Show" in the National Train Show..

          Or, just enjoy. Read Jeffrey MacHan latest post and build what you want. Make that list as Jeff advises and if your objectives lead you to a layout that photographs realistically then it would be that much better.

          And, to get back to the original subject, it could be far easier to build this layout if we had more manufactures contributing to our favorite scale. All this talk about changing minds is an attempt to bring this about.

          Boy can I get long winded.

          Bill
          El Toro


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • WILLIAM AND BARBARA BROCK
          Bill, Well stated, well stated! That is exactly why I have been studing photos, maps (topograhical and routing), graphs of cut away and grade, books, and
          Message 4 of 15 , Aug 6, 2001
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            Bill,

            Well stated, well stated! That is exactly why I have
            been studing photos, maps (topograhical and routing),
            graphs of cut away and grade, books, and videos on the
            particular area or line I plan to model. With this, I
            can get the basis down correctly, namely track and
            topograghy and then keep working at making it a
            realistic scene and layout. I shall keep working at
            it, and thanks for the encouragement Bill.

            BestZ
            Will

            --- Bill Hoshiko <billhko@...> wrote:
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: jcubbin@...
            > To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 9:50 AM
            > Subject: [z_scale] Re: Z Stigma
            >
            >
            > After reading the posts, I just think there is a
            > divergence of Z mind-sets. I personally don't see a
            > need for a concerted effort to reshape someone's
            > concept of how Z scale modeling should be thought of
            >
            > <snip>
            >
            > The reason for the need to change minds is to
            > persuade modelers who are participating in the other
            > scales to switch to Z or just to add Z to their
            > stable of model trains. Increased purchase of Z
            > products could encourage more manufacturers to enter
            > into the Z field. i.e.: encourage Atlas or Kato to
            > manufacture Z scale tracks etc. This could also
            > spur competition and bring about a reduction in
            > prices. The manufacturers need a large market in
            > order to recover their development costs quickly.
            >
            > During this summer I have visited several local
            > model train shops that never displayed any Z. Now
            > they have some Z trains on their shelves, both
            > Marklin and MT. Perhaps this was a reflection of
            > the economic prosperity prior to the recent market
            > down swing, or maybe it's just that Z is gaining in
            > popularity. After the exposure of Z that will
            > appear in the model magazines showing the national
            > train show perhaps we will have even more activity.
            >
            >
            > I really liked that link:
            >
            > http://member.nifty.ne.jp/yuzi/
            >
            >
            > Yuji does great work. Code 40 rail under his
            > models could have helped the picture. His layout is
            > a great example of understatement. Train, track,
            > hills, telephone poles - no trestles, rock outcrops,
            > trees, streams or buildings only enough to get his
            > message across. This is a model of a train rolling
            > along a western North American country side. Just
            > the type of scenery where the prototype operated.
            >
            > And I have one to show as well, again it's Nn3:
            >
            > http://members.aol.com/elstad/nn3.html
            >
            > Yes, it is a fine example of modeling a real
            > scene.
            >
            > Rather than have people look at photos and think
            > it's HO, my goal is to have people look at photos
            > and think it's the real thing. Lofty, I
            > know... but that's the goal.
            >
            > I spent my first dollar on a model railroad item
            > back in 1944. I have been observing the model
            > railroad scene for a long time. I am firmly
            > convinced that many model railroaders never actually
            > venture out to study the real thing. They may go
            > out to look at photograph and measure trains and
            > locomotives but they seldom look at the track,
            > roadbed, trackside structures or the landscape
            > surrounding the railroad. Many of them get all of
            > their information from model railroad publications.
            > If you want your model to be mistaken for the real
            > thing then you must go out and find a scene that you
            > want to model, photograph it, and then build it.
            > You do not need to make exact copies nor do you need
            > instructions from model railroad magazines. You
            > just need to do whatever is necessary to imitate
            > your desired scene.
            >
            > One thing to remember is to never build a large
            > site on a flat surface. All ground needs drainage
            > and only in model railroads do you see perfectly
            > flat railroad yards or city landscapes. If you need
            > a large flat area please model some sort of drainage
            > system. It is the small things that make your model
            > look real. Some stagnant water in the middle of
            > your yards for example.
            >
            > When you think that your scene looks perfect, then
            > you must take photographs of it and examine the
            > photos. Another trick is to look at it through a
            > mirror. You will be surprised at the difference in
            > the look. After you finish a model your eyes are
            > drawn to those areas where you spent most of your
            > effort. Looking at the photo makes your eyes look
            > at the overall scene and you will spot things that
            > you had overlooked. It is possible to build a
            > layout that photographs very realistic but you must
            > start out with that objective in mind.
            >
            > If you want to build a layout where you can run
            > trains past you as if you are railfanning then you
            > need a rather wide space. See:
            >
            >
            >
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/z_scale/files/Pics/Z_TrackShow/Zypher_Layout.JPG
            >
            > There are other pictures of this layout but I
            > could not find them. I just don't remember the name
            > of the builder. This is an excellent example of a
            > layout that represents a section of railroad. If
            > you have the space you can put return loops at each
            > end of the scene and your trains will pass by
            > traveling in both directions, and not just keep
            > reappearing headed in the same direction.
            >
            > If you do not have the necessary large space, then
            > you can build scenes like the British modelers do.
            > See
            >
            >
            >
            http://www.fielder-rowe.freeserve.co.uk/newproject.html
            >
            > There are ways to build a truly "photo" realistic
            > model railroad scene. It just takes a lot of study
            > and a dedication to do it. If you want to build a
            > representation of a railroad with stations,
            > railroad yards, locomotive maintenance shops,
            > industrial sidings and a fair stretch of mainline
            > you would require a very large space. And then
            > again, you could get by with just three valises, get
            > your layout featured in Model Railroader Magazine,
            > and win "Best in Show" in the National Train Show..
            >
            > Or, just enjoy. Read Jeffrey MacHan latest post
            > and build what you want. Make that list as Jeff
            > advises and if your objectives lead you to a layout
            > that photographs realistically then it would be that
            > much better.
            >
            > And, to get back to the original subject, it could
            > be far easier to build this layout if we had more
            > manufactures contributing to our favorite scale.
            > All this talk about changing minds is an attempt to
            > bring this about.
            >
            > Boy can I get long winded.
            >
            > Bill
            > El Toro
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been
            > removed]
            >
            >


            =====
            WILLIAM BROCK

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