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Re: [Z_Scale] MTL Production Numbers

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  • John Duino
    Hi! To reword what someone else said (sorry I forgot to register WHO said it before I hit delete), MTL does make 2nd/3rd runs eventually, but you have to fit
    Message 1 of 28 , Jun 2, 2007
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      Hi!

      To reword what someone else said (sorry I forgot to register WHO said it
      before I hit delete), MTL does make 2nd/3rd runs eventually, but you
      have to fit it into the production schedule. MTL only has so many
      painters, so many assemblers, so many testers...and if they are
      producing that then something else 'new' can't come out. This crowd is a
      fickle one...if they re-run then people complain that nothing new is
      coming out. If it's all new stuff then people want reissues. Short of
      staffing up, going 24/7, and expanding the facilities (all costly)
      there's no way of pleasing everyone.

      Having been around Z for awhile (first 'taste' in 77, more seriously
      since ~98) I can't be more pleased with the variety of goodies available
      in Z nowadays.

      On Sat, 2007-06-02 at 11:22 +0200, Uwe Liermann wrote:
      > Hello John,
      >
      > > MTL probably just hasn't been bold/brave enough to increase the
      > > production [...] they need to be careful and not overextend
      > > themselves.
      >
      > I can understand that MTL (as any other manufacturer) won't produce to
      > much of an item in a run, so it doesn't sit on the shelf to long. But
      > how about a second or third run when the item is almost sold out?
      > Currently I got the impression that there are one run were a certain
      > number gets produced. Am I wrong when I think that it can't be so
      > expensive just to start a second run? Or does it take to long in
      > scheduling at the factorys involved? Besides, this would also mean a
      > reduction in costs for construction and research for any item, since
      > those fixed costs are divided to more items, or with the selling price
      > the same, a bit more stays at the manufacturer for developing new
      > items...
      >
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    • Allan Miller
      ... of staffing up, going 24/7, and expanding the facilities (all costly) ... I could not agree more! There s a wealth of stuff available in Z these days, and
      Message 2 of 28 , Jun 3, 2007
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        --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, John Duino <jduino@...> wrote:
        >This crowd is a
        > fickle one...if they re-run then people complain that nothing new is
        > coming out. If it's all new stuff then people want reissues. Short
        of staffing up, going 24/7, and expanding the facilities (all costly)
        > there's no way of pleasing everyone.
        > Having been around Z for awhile (first 'taste' in 77, more seriously
        > since ~98) I can't be more pleased with the variety of goodies
        >available in Z nowadays.
        >

        I could not agree more! There's a wealth of stuff available in Z
        these days, and I can't imagine folks in this segment of the hobby
        being anything less than thrilled. It was many years in coming.

        I'm not sure what the problem is with today's consumer-hobbyists.
        They seem to want everything that THEY want, and they want it NOW! I
        see this in the other scales I model, and in some or most cases it is
        doing more harm to the hobby than good. As I've said so often in
        recent years: We hobbyists are our own worst enemies. We've gotten
        to the point where too many of us see "things" as the be-all and
        end-all, and too few, apparently, are willing to enjoy and make good
        use of what is already available (in variety and quantity never seen
        before) or what they already have. As I see it, the hobby is about
        far more than simply acquiring "things." It's about putting what we
        do have (and can afford) to good use. It's about creating, imagining,
        dreaming, acquiring new skills, learning about the history and
        heritage of railroading, relaxing in those all-too-rare leisure hours,
        and sharing in the spirit of good fellowship.

        If MTL or someone else announces something you want to buy, establish
        a good, regular relationship with a dealer and get your order placed
        on their list. Otherwise, take your chances when the item is
        eventually released and find a dealer who has it available or shop the
        secondary market.

        My feeling is that MTL, in particular, has done a very good job in
        giving folks a heads-up about what they are planning, and estimating
        when it may be available. They try to be realistic in meeting the
        expectations of the many diverse individuals in the hobby, but they
        are, I'm sure, fully aware that they can't be all things to all
        people. Nor should they try to be! Z scale is still a small niche in
        a much larger hobby, and any business in this hobby has to be very
        careful about the approaches they follow to assure their reasonable
        growth and profitability.
      • Uwe Liermann
        Hello Allan, I fully agree with this from your mail (I quote it first, even if it ... You re right that the I want it ALL NOW feeling is doing harm, even if
        Message 3 of 28 , Jun 3, 2007
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          Hello Allan,

          I fully agree with this from your mail (I quote it first, even if it
          was in your mail later on):

          > My feeling is that MTL, in particular, has done a very good job

          and I also agree with this:

          > I could not agree more! There's a wealth of stuff available in Z
          > these days, and I can't imagine folks in this segment of the hobby
          > being anything less than thrilled. It was many years in coming.

          and I also agree with this:

          > I'm not sure what the problem is with today's consumer-hobbyists.
          > They seem to want everything that THEY want, and they want it NOW! I
          > see this in the other scales I model, and in some or most cases it is
          > doing more harm to the hobby than good.

          You're right that the "I want it ALL NOW" feeling is doing harm, even
          if it seems to be the usual feeling for many things nowadays. But
          there are also people who doesn't want it ALL NOW. And for them this:

          > If MTL or someone else announces something you want to buy, establish
          > a good, regular relationship with a dealer and get your order placed
          > on their list. Otherwise, take your chances when the item is
          > eventually released and find a dealer who has it available or shop the
          > secondary market.

          is not the perfect solution. I see a lot of items that I would like to
          have or use sometimes, but I can't afford all of them right now.
          Partly because of my budget, and also partly because I'm not that far
          in my development yet. I have a relatively long wish list about items
          I want to have, and also for some that I would like to see, but that
          are not available yet. A lot of items that were produced earlier are
          only available via the secondary market. I think for the manufacturers
          it would be a lot better if the consumer could buy new, instead of
          hoping that an item will show up on EBay sometimes. Besides buying
          something on EBay won't bring any money to the original manufacturer.

          The same is true, I believe, for the growth of the Z customer numbers.
          If they see something, and want to knew where they can get it, now
          often you have to tell them "XYZ made this, but you will have to see
          if you find it at EBay...". This isn't a good argument for getting
          into Z.

          I knew the solution for this problem isn't easy, maybe especially for
          the small producer of things.

          --
          GreetingZ
          Uwe
        • Zane H. Healy
          ... I d just like to point out that I m not saying I want everything I want for my trains NOW! Quite the opposite, I m happy to wait, and add an item here and
          Message 4 of 28 , Jun 3, 2007
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            At 9:56 AM +0000 6/3/07, Allan Miller wrote:
            >I'm not sure what the problem is with today's consumer-hobbyists.
            >They seem to want everything that THEY want, and they want it NOW! I
            >see this in the other scales I model, and in some or most cases it is
            >doing more harm to the hobby than good. As I've said so often in

            I'd just like to point out that I'm not saying I want everything I
            want for my trains NOW! Quite the opposite, I'm happy to wait, and
            add an item here and there. It helps to keep things affordable.

            What I am saying is that when I walk into a train store a couple days
            after a new car, or cars are announced and am informed that I can't
            buy them, because the store is sold out and can't get any more from
            MTL, I consider this to be a problem.

            Call me strange, but I for one would rather pay more to support a
            store in my own community, I don't want to have to order online from
            another state. In fact this is one reason that I really like buying
            MTL products, I'm an Oregonian, and by buying MTL I'm helping to
            support an Oregon business.

            >If MTL or someone else announces something you want to buy, establish
            >a good, regular relationship with a dealer and get your order placed
            >on their list. Otherwise, take your chances when the item is
            >eventually released and find a dealer who has it available or shop the
            >secondary market.

            >My feeling is that MTL, in particular, has done a very good job in
            >giving folks a heads-up about what they are planning, and estimating
            >when it may be available. They try to be realistic in meeting the

            OK, I'm curious, am I missing something here? We know that the Army
            train is coming around the bend, and that the GP9's are on the way.
            We actually know what the first GP9 will be. We also know about the
            passenger cars and F8's (or is it E8). I'd like the Army train, but
            will probably pass on it, unless I happen to get lucky and spot it in
            my FLHS and decide on a whim to buy it. The rest I'll be wanting to
            buy if I can get the roads I'm collecting.

            All of the above info is very vague though, and it's hard to place
            orders on vague. Can you tell me what the July cars are? This is
            what I'm talking about. How are we to know if any of the July cars
            are anything we want to get? By the time we do find out if they are
            something we want, we run the risk of them being sold out before we
            can get them.

            Zane


            --
            | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
            | healyzh@... (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
            | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector |
            +----------------------------------+----------------------------+
            | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
            | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
            | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
          • Mike D.
            Uwe I have never seen a response so eloquently worded, you are truly the politician! I vote for you for Mayor of Zville, will someone second the nomination?
            Message 5 of 28 , Jun 3, 2007
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              Uwe I have never seen a response so eloquently worded, you are truly the
              politician! I vote for you for Mayor of Zville, will someone second the
              nomination? I�ve never seen such a swift �reverse 180� are you into racing
              too?

              In regards to second runs being cheaper for MTL to do that�s simply
              ridiculous even with existing molds, labor has gone up and so is every other
              aspect of manufacturing. Tooling could have even changed requiring mold
              modifications or complete rework of the molds/new molds altogether. So no it
              won�t be cheaper even with the very same production house.

              Another question that comes to mind, why are they beating to death the same
              old lines? Why aren�t they doing anything in the Fallen Flags lines? Those
              lines are still being modeled in fairly large numbers and most of the stuff
              is coming from the cottage industry side of MRR, thank the almighty for
              those guy�s if it weren�t for them we�d all be running BNSF, CSX, UP, and
              SP.

              Just take a look at what Chad did recently, with only some help from Uncle
              Will, he brought in the Bill K. car, On Time, At Cost. He didn�t sit in a
              conference room bickering with the N Scale team and he didn�t have to
              connive management for a budget, AND he didn�t leave a Single modeler
              hanging in the lurch.

              All this makes one Really Appreciate all the efforts of Robert, Tim, Rob,
              Loren, Uncle Will, Trainnut and now Chad. Thanks Guys you are truly the
              Gucci�s and Armani�s of small scale model railroading today!

              Aaron, I can always expect to see some responsible and pertinent to the
              subject at hand when I read your posts. Hopefully someone at MTL will take
              heed of your suggestion?

              To take that a step further they should also have regional reps to include
              Canada, Germany, Switzerland, Norway and Denmark or at the very least an
              order/pre-order form on the MTL website where they could then offer the reps
              exclusive access to projected sales in their areas. MTL should also come to
              terms with the fact that they aren�t a little company any more. Trust me
              there is nothing sitting on the shelves of my LHS for more than a day or two
              excepting the standard stock of Micro-Track. If I�m not there by Friday of
              the week it�s released, well shame on me.

              Right now they are the largest supplier of mass produced Z scale items, this
              won�t always be the case. Other manufacturers are bound to see the revenue
              potential and squeeze their way in as well. The stunt with the N Scale Pan
              Am car won you more than a few disgruntled fans (not the best marketing
              approach ever deployed). Also why didn�t we even see this car in Z scale?
              Hmmm?

              /s/ Another HAVE TO HAVE IT RIGHT NOW, hurting the Hobby, Z Scale enthusiast



              >From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@...>
              >Reply-To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
              >To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
              >Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: MTL Production Numbers
              >Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 12:54:03 -0700
              >
              >At 9:56 AM +0000 6/3/07, Allan Miller wrote:
              > >I'm not sure what the problem is with today's consumer-hobbyists.
              > >They seem to want everything that THEY want, and they want it NOW! I
              > >see this in the other scales I model, and in some or most cases it is
              > >doing more harm to the hobby than good. As I've said so often in
              >
              >I'd just like to point out that I'm not saying I want everything I
              >want for my trains NOW! Quite the opposite, I'm happy to wait, and
              >add an item here and there. It helps to keep things affordable.
              >
              >What I am saying is that when I walk into a train store a couple days
              >after a new car, or cars are announced and am informed that I can't
              >buy them, because the store is sold out and can't get any more from
              >MTL, I consider this to be a problem.
              >
              >Call me strange, but I for one would rather pay more to support a
              >store in my own community, I don't want to have to order online from
              >another state. In fact this is one reason that I really like buying
              >MTL products, I'm an Oregonian, and by buying MTL I'm helping to
              >support an Oregon business.
              >
              > >If MTL or someone else announces something you want to buy, establish
              > >a good, regular relationship with a dealer and get your order placed
              > >on their list. Otherwise, take your chances when the item is
              > >eventually released and find a dealer who has it available or shop the
              > >secondary market.
              >
              > >My feeling is that MTL, in particular, has done a very good job in
              > >giving folks a heads-up about what they are planning, and estimating
              > >when it may be available. They try to be realistic in meeting the
              >
              >OK, I'm curious, am I missing something here? We know that the Army
              >train is coming around the bend, and that the GP9's are on the way.
              >We actually know what the first GP9 will be. We also know about the
              >passenger cars and F8's (or is it E8). I'd like the Army train, but
              >will probably pass on it, unless I happen to get lucky and spot it in
              >my FLHS and decide on a whim to buy it. The rest I'll be wanting to
              >buy if I can get the roads I'm collecting.
              >
              >All of the above info is very vague though, and it's hard to place
              >orders on vague. Can you tell me what the July cars are? This is
              >what I'm talking about. How are we to know if any of the July cars
              >are anything we want to get? By the time we do find out if they are
              >something we want, we run the risk of them being sold out before we
              >can get them.
              >
              > Zane
              >
              >
              >--
              >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
              >| healyzh@... (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
              >| MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector |
              >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
              >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
              >| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
              >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |

              _________________________________________________________________
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            • Don Avila
              We can talk to ourselves until we are blue in the face. It is the two sisters at MTL that have to be convinces there is money in Z. ... the
              Message 6 of 28 , Jun 3, 2007
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                We can talk to ourselves until we are blue in the face.

                It is the two sisters at MTL that have to be convinces there is money
                in Z.

                ...don

                --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Mike D." <zscaletrains@...> wrote:
                >
                > Uwe I have never seen a response so eloquently worded, you are truly
                the
                > politician!
              • Karin Svenson
                ... money ... Don, just don t turn into one of those Blue Guys that play with plastic pipe! My 2 bits worth is this... if MTL s leadership doesn t step up to
                Message 7 of 28 , Jun 3, 2007
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                  --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Don Avila" <d.f.avila@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > We can talk to ourselves until we are blue in the face.
                  >
                  > It is the two sisters at MTL that have to be convinces there is
                  money
                  > in Z.

                  Don, just don't turn into one of those "Blue Guys" that play with
                  plastic pipe!

                  My 2 bits worth is this... if MTL's leadership doesn't step up to the
                  plate and if AZL remains too expensive for many then I hope Athearn,
                  Atlas, Bachmann, or similar companies to put their toes in the
                  water. Remember, they didn't go into N scale right away and now you
                  can get some very nice prototypical motive power and rolling stock in
                  just about all of the major road names, even in Alaska! Granted some
                  are cheaper than others but they offer affordable high end N scale.
                  Competition is what gets us more, and better, in every product known
                  to man. I'm glad old man Henry Ford wasn't the only producer of
                  automobiles, who knows what few styles and low efficieny cars we'd be
                  driving now.

                  I cannot believe that these other companies are not rubbing their
                  chins as they contemplate the Z scale market. They have to be at
                  least THINKING about it, no?

                  Karin
                • Don Avila
                  My worthless guess is that some of these manufacturers will take a GOOD look around Detroit this summer, and then begin to consider spending some tooling
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jun 3, 2007
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                    My worthless guess is that some of these manufacturers will take a
                    GOOD look around Detroit this summer, and then begin to consider
                    spending some tooling money. Detroit is only 8 weeks away -- Isn't
                    that 7+1 or 6+2? It's a big commitment to start off on another scale.
                    And there is a BIG chicken/egg world out there that has to pay the
                    bills. I see Loren was helping promote the product in San Jose
                    yesterday/today] ...don

                    - - -

                    > Don, just don't turn into one of those "Blue Guys" that play with
                    > plastic pipe!
                    >
                    > My 2 bits worth is this... if MTL's leadership doesn't step up to the
                    > plate and if AZL remains too expensive for many then I hope Athearn,
                    > Atlas, Bachmann, or similar companies to put their toes in the
                    > water. Remember, they didn't go into N scale right away and now you
                    > can get some very nice prototypical motive power and rolling stock in
                    > just about all of the major road names, even in Alaska! Granted some
                    > are cheaper than others but they offer affordable high end N scale.
                    > Competition is what gets us more, and better, in every product known
                    > to man. I'm glad old man Henry Ford wasn't the only producer of
                    > automobiles, who knows what few styles and low efficieny cars we'd be
                    > driving now.
                    >
                    > I cannot believe that these other companies are not rubbing their
                    > chins as they contemplate the Z scale market. They have to be at
                    > least THINKING about it, no?
                    >
                    > Karin
                    >
                  • Mike D.
                    Say It Ain t So, Don... MTL is operated by two women? Well that explains that. My dealer called them in inquire about a car for me and something called runner
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jun 3, 2007
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                      Say It Ain't So, Don...

                      MTL is operated by two women? Well that explains that.

                      My dealer called them in inquire about a car for me and something called
                      'runner set's #4 and #5 it think it was, the woman who answered the phone
                      not knowing she was on speaker phone didn't just get nasty real quick, she
                      got ultra-NASTY. Now my dealer (who looks exactly like Wolfman Jack did)
                      looked at me with the widest eyes I've ever seen on a Human in all my life.
                      No no receptionist in the world would dare to speak to a customer like that
                      for fear of her job, so it had to be one of these women.

                      I'm not taking anything away from women in business I hope all will
                      understand. But from this attitude it's clearly evident nothing will change
                      and those personnel at MTL must have their hands full in dealing with that
                      kind of mentality. They must of had to walk to school (uphill, both ways).

                      Karin, I sure hope your assessment is right, for them to not take advantage
                      while they 'Owned' the market and had the chance to establish themselves as
                      the leader. To just give the opportunity away, well that just seems to be
                      the American way these days. I realize all to well that if it was easy then
                      boy scouts and girl scouts would be doing it. Whats going on here is just a
                      shame, a plain ole shame.

                      /s/ Not Really a GOT TO HAVE IT NOW, disgruntled, Hurting the Hobby, MTL
                      fan.


                      >From: "Karin Svenson" <karin@...>
                      >Reply-To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                      >To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                      >Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: MTL Production Numbers
                      >Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 23:21:27 -0000
                      >
                      >--- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Don Avila" <d.f.avila@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > We can talk to ourselves until we are blue in the face.
                      > >
                      > > It is the two sisters at MTL that have to be convinces there is
                      >money
                      > > in Z.
                      >
                      >Don, just don't turn into one of those "Blue Guys" that play with
                      >plastic pipe!
                      >
                      >My 2 bits worth is this... if MTL's leadership doesn't step up to the
                      >plate and if AZL remains too expensive for many then I hope Athearn,
                      >Atlas, Bachmann, or similar companies to put their toes in the
                      >water. Remember, they didn't go into N scale right away and now you
                      >can get some very nice prototypical motive power and rolling stock in
                      >just about all of the major road names, even in Alaska! Granted some
                      >are cheaper than others but they offer affordable high end N scale.
                      >Competition is what gets us more, and better, in every product known
                      >to man. I'm glad old man Henry Ford wasn't the only producer of
                      >automobiles, who knows what few styles and low efficieny cars we'd be
                      >driving now.
                      >
                      >I cannot believe that these other companies are not rubbing their
                      >chins as they contemplate the Z scale market. They have to be at
                      >least THINKING about it, no?
                      >
                      >Karin
                      >

                      _________________________________________________________________
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                    • Don Avila
                      Give Loren a couple of days to get his feet back on the ground and drop him an Email. He s been at a train show with Joe with at least two of the new GP9 s
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jun 3, 2007
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                        Give Loren a couple of days to get his feet back on the ground and
                        drop him an Email. He's been at a train show with Joe with at least
                        two of the new GP9's fully decorated. Check out TRAINBOARD for the
                        colors. Loren is in at MTL regularly and can can fill you in on
                        details, even the names of who to write to or whatever. I didn't
                        think the sisters answered the phones, but who knows. MTL has quite a
                        few employees.

                        ...don


                        > Say It Ain't So, Don...
                        >
                        > MTL is operated by two women? Well that explains that.
                        >
                        > My dealer called them in inquire about a car for me and something
                        called
                        > 'runner set's #4 and #5 it think it was, the woman who answered the
                        phone
                        > not knowing she was on speaker phone didn't just get nasty real
                        quick, she
                        > got ultra-NASTY. Now my dealer (who looks exactly like Wolfman Jack
                        did)
                        > looked at me with the widest eyes I've ever seen on a Human in all
                        my life.
                        > No no receptionist in the world would dare to speak to a customer
                        like that
                        > for fear of her job, so it had to be one of these women.
                        >
                        > I'm not taking anything away from women in business I hope all will
                        > understand. But from this attitude it's clearly evident nothing will
                        change
                        > and those personnel at MTL must have their hands full in dealing
                        with that
                        > kind of mentality. They must of had to walk to school (uphill, both
                        ways).
                        >
                        > Karin, I sure hope your assessment is right, for them to not take
                        advantage
                        > while they 'Owned' the market and had the chance to establish
                        themselves as
                        > the leader. To just give the opportunity away, well that just seems
                        to be
                        > the American way these days. I realize all to well that if it was
                        easy then
                        > boy scouts and girl scouts would be doing it. Whats going on here is
                        just a
                        > shame, a plain ole shame.
                      • Joe DAmato
                        Boy, I go to San Francisco for a day of train runnin and come back to this!! :o) Hey, I d love to tell you all what s coming in the way of road names, but
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jun 3, 2007
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                          Boy, I go to San Francisco for a day of train runnin' and come back
                          to this!! :o)

                          Hey, I'd love to tell you all what's coming in the way of road names,
                          but that's a lot more complicated than talking about new product
                          development. It's also something done by a different part of the
                          company and I think there's someting to do with letting dealers know
                          what and when and when to let customers know, and what and
                          when...oye..my head hurts. We've come a long way in the past 4 years
                          and I wouldn't be surprised if we continue to move and change in the
                          comming months and years...and as we do I announce what I can.

                          Cheers

                          Joe



                          --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Edward Scullin <sculline@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Don
                          > I think what was meant about giving notice as to what is coming out
                          refered to road names Joe D
                          > has been great about what he knows is coming, but still kind of
                          quiet about specific road names.
                          > I think if what was stated here earlier about a 6 month lead time,
                          It would make sense if MTL
                          > would announce the road names and then see what additional orders
                          appear. Granted a lot of
                          > dealers aare signed up to take X of what ever MTL produces. If I
                          read the post from Aaron
                          > correctly dealers can be fairly selective (IE this month I want X
                          tank cars, Y box cars etc).
                          > Ed Scullin
                          >
                          > --- Don Avila <d.f.avila@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > [snip]
                          > > >
                          > > > Okay, this brings up another question, why all the secrecy on
                          what is
                          > > > coming out?
                          > > > Zane
                          > >
                          > > Ummmmmm,
                          > >
                          > > Joe has been pretty open with us. We have known about the GP9
                          for a
                          > > LOOOOONG time. Finished production photos of the the first
                          version
                          > > are on Trainboard and they are spectacular He told us about the
                          > > turnouts and new track more than half a year before they came
                          out.
                          > > The other day he told us the turnout motors will be available
                          > > separately in a few months and of course they are now available
                          with
                          > > track. Many months before the Digitrax drop in DCC came out Joe
                          told
                          > > us about it. He has been telling us about the passenger cars
                          coming.
                          > > He has been telling us about some of the new engines with 6 wheel
                          > > trucks.
                          > >
                          > > I hardly call it secrecy ESPECIALLY where it really truly comes
                          out
                          > > and is not Vapor-Ware.
                          > >
                          > > ...don
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • Alan Cox
                          ... So get her name and get her fired. And tell me you ve never had a man do the same...
                          Message 12 of 28 , Jun 4, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            > got ultra-NASTY. Now my dealer (who looks exactly like Wolfman Jack did)
                            > looked at me with the widest eyes I've ever seen on a Human in all my life.
                            > No no receptionist in the world would dare to speak to a customer like that
                            > for fear of her job, so it had to be one of these women.

                            So get her name and get her fired. And tell me you've never had a man do
                            the same...
                          • Garth Hamilton
                            Guys if you are so sure you can do a better job then go get a job at MTL or better yet make an offer the current owners can not turn down and show us what you
                            Message 13 of 28 , Jun 4, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Guys if you are so sure you can do a better job then go get a job at
                              MTL or better yet make an offer the current owners can not turn down
                              and show us what you can do. Otherwise you are a lay preacher
                              preaching to the already converted and it a rehash of what we have
                              all heard. MTL management is not listening here. Joe is that is a
                              truly bright light so don't blow it out.

                              Garth Hamilton
                              one of the converted
                            • Edward Scullin
                              Joe We can t really ask for any more than that. BUT Ed Scullin Thanks for filling us in when you can.
                              Message 14 of 28 , Jun 4, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Joe
                                We can't really ask for any more than that. BUT
                                Ed Scullin
                                Thanks for filling us in when you can.

                                --- Joe DAmato <shipsure2003@...> wrote:

                                > Boy, I go to San Francisco for a day of train runnin' and come back
                                > to this!! :o)
                                >
                                > Hey, I'd love to tell you all what's coming in the way of road names,
                                > but that's a lot more complicated than talking about new product

                                ...and as we do I announce what I can.
                                >
                                > Cheers
                                >
                                > Joe
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Edward Scullin <sculline@...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Don
                                > > I think what was meant about giving notice as to what is coming out
                                > refered to road names Joe D
                                > > has been great about what he knows is coming, but still kind of
                                > quiet about specific road names.
                                > > I think if what was stated here earlier about a 6 month lead time,
                                > It would make sense if MTL
                                > > would announce the road names and then see what additional orders
                                > appear. Granted a lot of
                                > > dealers aare signed up to take X of what ever MTL produces. If I
                                > read the post from Aaron
                                > > correctly dealers can be fairly selective (IE this month I want X
                                > tank cars, Y box cars etc).
                                > > Ed Scullin
                                > >
                                > > --- Don Avila <d.f.avila@...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > > [snip]
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Okay, this brings up another question, why all the secrecy on
                                > what is
                                > > > > coming out?
                                > > > > Zane
                                > > >
                                > > > Ummmmmm,
                                > > >
                                > > > Joe has been pretty open with us. We have known about the GP9
                                > for a
                                > > > LOOOOONG time. Finished production photos of the the first
                                > version
                                > > > are on Trainboard and they are spectacular He told us about the
                                > > > turnouts and new track more than half a year before they came
                                > out.
                                > > > The other day he told us the turnout motors will be available
                                > > > separately in a few months and of course they are now available
                                > with
                                > > > track. Many months before the Digitrax drop in DCC came out Joe
                                > told
                                > > > us about it. He has been telling us about the passenger cars
                                > coming.
                                > > > He has been telling us about some of the new engines with 6 wheel
                                > > > trucks.
                                > > >
                                > > > I hardly call it secrecy ESPECIALLY where it really truly comes
                                > out
                                > > > and is not Vapor-Ware.
                                > > >
                                > > > ...don
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
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