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RE: [Z_Scale] Re: MTL Production Numbers

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  • Mike D.
    Don Buddy your smoking DOPE and obviously it s the good stuff!!! Vapor Ware... some items didn t even materialize on the retail market much less have a chance
    Message 1 of 28 , Jun 2, 2007
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      Don Buddy your smoking DOPE and obviously it's the good stuff!!! Vapor
      Ware... some items didn't even materialize on the retail market much less
      have a chance to vapor... Good to know obviously your on the inside. It
      would be nice if MTL came up with a form on their website for the rest of us
      to order from making sure ALL of us had a fair share. All I've been hearing
      so far is "It's coming, It's coming, We're working on it, You'll get it.
      Then on the supposedly day of release try to order, THEN you hear... It's
      sold out... that's B*** S*** All I can say to MTL is Enjoy while you can
      boy's your day's a coming...

      Mike D.


      >From: "Don Avila" <d.f.avila@...>
      >Reply-To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
      >To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: MTL Production Numbers
      >Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 19:04:12 -0000
      >
      >[snip]
      > >
      > > Okay, this brings up another question, why all the secrecy on what is
      > > coming out?
      > > Zane
      >
      >Ummmmmm,
      >
      >Joe has been pretty open with us. We have known about the GP9 for a
      >LOOOOONG time. Finished production photos of the the first version
      >are on Trainboard and they are spectacular He told us about the
      >turnouts and new track more than half a year before they came out.
      >The other day he told us the turnout motors will be available
      >separately in a few months and of course they are now available with
      >track. Many months before the Digitrax drop in DCC came out Joe told
      >us about it. He has been telling us about the passenger cars coming.
      > He has been telling us about some of the new engines with 6 wheel
      >trucks.
      >
      >I hardly call it secrecy ESPECIALLY where it really truly comes out
      >and is not Vapor-Ware.
      >
      >...don
      >
      >

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    • non
      Atlas has a six month pre-order for store owners. What the mfg what is for store owners to order more, so that the mfg doesn t have to stock them the store do.
      Message 2 of 28 , Jun 2, 2007
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        Atlas has a six month pre-order for store owners.
        What the mfg what is for store owners to order more, so that the mfg
        doesn't have to stock them the store do.
        Aaron
        --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@...> wrote:
        >
        > At 2:51 PM +0000 6/2/07, non wrote:
        > >From what I under stand about MTL items being sold out within days.
        > >The stores have to place their orders before knowing what coming
        out.
        > >I know I have a store and purchase from MTL for the past five
        years.
        > >The store owners signup to get so many box cars, cab, tanks per
        > >month. A small store like myself would have 4 to 6 of each on
        order.
        > >Now the new releases come out. And the store owner sees that a road
        > >name in his area sell fast. He might or migh NOT get the extra
        cars.
        > >MTL looks at their production needs per standing orders, not roads.
        > >So if MTL know they need 3,000 of each box that is what they run.
        If
        > >the road is a HOT road they "might" run a few extra.
        > >So, as a store owner you have to have a large standing order and
        hope
        > >the road names sell within a few months.
        > >Aaron Poscovsky
        >
        > Okay, this brings up another question, why all the secrecy on what
        is
        > coming out? Perhaps they need to at least make a change to their
        > ordering methods and allow stores to designate certain road names
        > that they will automatically get extra of. As someone who prefers
        to
        > buy stuff from their FLHS, rather than online, the current state of
        > things is less than optimal.
        >
        > Having said this, I can understand that MTL and the Hobby Stores
        > can't afford to have stock sitting around unsold for long periods
        of
        > time.
        >
        > Zane
        >
        >
        > --
        > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
        > | healyzh@... (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
        > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector |
        > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+
        > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
        > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
        > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
        >
      • Edward Scullin
        Don I think what was meant about giving notice as to what is coming out refered to road names Joe D has been great about what he knows is coming, but still
        Message 3 of 28 , Jun 2, 2007
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          Don
          I think what was meant about giving notice as to what is coming out refered to road names Joe D
          has been great about what he knows is coming, but still kind of quiet about specific road names.
          I think if what was stated here earlier about a 6 month lead time, It would make sense if MTL
          would announce the road names and then see what additional orders appear. Granted a lot of
          dealers aare signed up to take X of what ever MTL produces. If I read the post from Aaron
          correctly dealers can be fairly selective (IE this month I want X tank cars, Y box cars etc).
          Ed Scullin

          --- Don Avila <d.f.avila@...> wrote:

          > [snip]
          > >
          > > Okay, this brings up another question, why all the secrecy on what is
          > > coming out?
          > > Zane
          >
          > Ummmmmm,
          >
          > Joe has been pretty open with us. We have known about the GP9 for a
          > LOOOOONG time. Finished production photos of the the first version
          > are on Trainboard and they are spectacular He told us about the
          > turnouts and new track more than half a year before they came out.
          > The other day he told us the turnout motors will be available
          > separately in a few months and of course they are now available with
          > track. Many months before the Digitrax drop in DCC came out Joe told
          > us about it. He has been telling us about the passenger cars coming.
          > He has been telling us about some of the new engines with 6 wheel
          > trucks.
          >
          > I hardly call it secrecy ESPECIALLY where it really truly comes out
          > and is not Vapor-Ware.
          >
          > ...don
          >
          >
          >
        • Don Avila
          Good Point. Joe and I traded a few emails about a year ago regarding announcements of items to come. Even though MTL is small, I think they have some thick
          Message 4 of 28 , Jun 2, 2007
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            Good Point.

            Joe and I traded a few emails about a year ago regarding announcements
            of items to come. Even though MTL is small, I think they have some
            thick walls with no windows and Joe himself is not always "in the
            know" As Z begins to make some serious dollars for the owners, I
            think we may see some changes as to how things are done.

            ...don

            --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Edward Scullin <sculline@...> wrote:
            >
            > Don
            > I think what was meant about giving notice as to what is coming out
            refered to road names Joe D
            > has been great about what he knows is coming, but still kind of
            quiet about specific road names.
            > I think if what was stated here earlier about a 6 month lead time,
            It would make sense if MTL
            > would announce the road names and then see what additional orders
            appear. Granted a lot of
            > dealers aare signed up to take X of what ever MTL produces. If I
            read the post from Aaron
            > correctly dealers can be fairly selective (IE this month I want X
            tank cars, Y box cars etc).
            > Ed Scullin
            >
            > --- Don Avila <d.f.avila@...> wrote:
            >
            > > [snip]
            > > >
            > > > Okay, this brings up another question, why all the secrecy on
            what is
            > > > coming out?
            > > > Zane
            > >
            > > Ummmmmm,
            > >
            > > Joe has been pretty open with us.
          • non
            A good way to help out any hobby store owner that wants your business is let him/her know what you are looking for. Should it might be a dream item, but guest
            Message 5 of 28 , Jun 2, 2007
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              A good way to help out any hobby store owner that wants your business
              is let him/her know what you are looking for.
              Should it might be a dream item, but guest what if you mention an item
              and he/she hears it a few times from other, The owner will help push
              for the item from the mfg.
              And you know how that happens, he/she start mentioning it to the mfg
              when the orders are place.
              Ex. The owner emails Mark at MTL on the sales desk. And say "Hey, think
              we might see a XXXX item coming out one day?"
              M ark will say he does know. But, if a few owner ask, he will get upset
              with the question and mention it to someone over him.
              Please, just drop a note once in awhile to your hobby store owner,
              asking about items you are looking for. Perhaps, if he/his wants your
              business they will start stocking it.
              Aaron Poscovsky
            • John Duino
              Hi! To reword what someone else said (sorry I forgot to register WHO said it before I hit delete), MTL does make 2nd/3rd runs eventually, but you have to fit
              Message 6 of 28 , Jun 2, 2007
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                Hi!

                To reword what someone else said (sorry I forgot to register WHO said it
                before I hit delete), MTL does make 2nd/3rd runs eventually, but you
                have to fit it into the production schedule. MTL only has so many
                painters, so many assemblers, so many testers...and if they are
                producing that then something else 'new' can't come out. This crowd is a
                fickle one...if they re-run then people complain that nothing new is
                coming out. If it's all new stuff then people want reissues. Short of
                staffing up, going 24/7, and expanding the facilities (all costly)
                there's no way of pleasing everyone.

                Having been around Z for awhile (first 'taste' in 77, more seriously
                since ~98) I can't be more pleased with the variety of goodies available
                in Z nowadays.

                On Sat, 2007-06-02 at 11:22 +0200, Uwe Liermann wrote:
                > Hello John,
                >
                > > MTL probably just hasn't been bold/brave enough to increase the
                > > production [...] they need to be careful and not overextend
                > > themselves.
                >
                > I can understand that MTL (as any other manufacturer) won't produce to
                > much of an item in a run, so it doesn't sit on the shelf to long. But
                > how about a second or third run when the item is almost sold out?
                > Currently I got the impression that there are one run were a certain
                > number gets produced. Am I wrong when I think that it can't be so
                > expensive just to start a second run? Or does it take to long in
                > scheduling at the factorys involved? Besides, this would also mean a
                > reduction in costs for construction and research for any item, since
                > those fixed costs are divided to more items, or with the selling price
                > the same, a bit more stays at the manufacturer for developing new
                > items...
                >
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              • Allan Miller
                ... of staffing up, going 24/7, and expanding the facilities (all costly) ... I could not agree more! There s a wealth of stuff available in Z these days, and
                Message 7 of 28 , Jun 3, 2007
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                  --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, John Duino <jduino@...> wrote:
                  >This crowd is a
                  > fickle one...if they re-run then people complain that nothing new is
                  > coming out. If it's all new stuff then people want reissues. Short
                  of staffing up, going 24/7, and expanding the facilities (all costly)
                  > there's no way of pleasing everyone.
                  > Having been around Z for awhile (first 'taste' in 77, more seriously
                  > since ~98) I can't be more pleased with the variety of goodies
                  >available in Z nowadays.
                  >

                  I could not agree more! There's a wealth of stuff available in Z
                  these days, and I can't imagine folks in this segment of the hobby
                  being anything less than thrilled. It was many years in coming.

                  I'm not sure what the problem is with today's consumer-hobbyists.
                  They seem to want everything that THEY want, and they want it NOW! I
                  see this in the other scales I model, and in some or most cases it is
                  doing more harm to the hobby than good. As I've said so often in
                  recent years: We hobbyists are our own worst enemies. We've gotten
                  to the point where too many of us see "things" as the be-all and
                  end-all, and too few, apparently, are willing to enjoy and make good
                  use of what is already available (in variety and quantity never seen
                  before) or what they already have. As I see it, the hobby is about
                  far more than simply acquiring "things." It's about putting what we
                  do have (and can afford) to good use. It's about creating, imagining,
                  dreaming, acquiring new skills, learning about the history and
                  heritage of railroading, relaxing in those all-too-rare leisure hours,
                  and sharing in the spirit of good fellowship.

                  If MTL or someone else announces something you want to buy, establish
                  a good, regular relationship with a dealer and get your order placed
                  on their list. Otherwise, take your chances when the item is
                  eventually released and find a dealer who has it available or shop the
                  secondary market.

                  My feeling is that MTL, in particular, has done a very good job in
                  giving folks a heads-up about what they are planning, and estimating
                  when it may be available. They try to be realistic in meeting the
                  expectations of the many diverse individuals in the hobby, but they
                  are, I'm sure, fully aware that they can't be all things to all
                  people. Nor should they try to be! Z scale is still a small niche in
                  a much larger hobby, and any business in this hobby has to be very
                  careful about the approaches they follow to assure their reasonable
                  growth and profitability.
                • Uwe Liermann
                  Hello Allan, I fully agree with this from your mail (I quote it first, even if it ... You re right that the I want it ALL NOW feeling is doing harm, even if
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jun 3, 2007
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                    Hello Allan,

                    I fully agree with this from your mail (I quote it first, even if it
                    was in your mail later on):

                    > My feeling is that MTL, in particular, has done a very good job

                    and I also agree with this:

                    > I could not agree more! There's a wealth of stuff available in Z
                    > these days, and I can't imagine folks in this segment of the hobby
                    > being anything less than thrilled. It was many years in coming.

                    and I also agree with this:

                    > I'm not sure what the problem is with today's consumer-hobbyists.
                    > They seem to want everything that THEY want, and they want it NOW! I
                    > see this in the other scales I model, and in some or most cases it is
                    > doing more harm to the hobby than good.

                    You're right that the "I want it ALL NOW" feeling is doing harm, even
                    if it seems to be the usual feeling for many things nowadays. But
                    there are also people who doesn't want it ALL NOW. And for them this:

                    > If MTL or someone else announces something you want to buy, establish
                    > a good, regular relationship with a dealer and get your order placed
                    > on their list. Otherwise, take your chances when the item is
                    > eventually released and find a dealer who has it available or shop the
                    > secondary market.

                    is not the perfect solution. I see a lot of items that I would like to
                    have or use sometimes, but I can't afford all of them right now.
                    Partly because of my budget, and also partly because I'm not that far
                    in my development yet. I have a relatively long wish list about items
                    I want to have, and also for some that I would like to see, but that
                    are not available yet. A lot of items that were produced earlier are
                    only available via the secondary market. I think for the manufacturers
                    it would be a lot better if the consumer could buy new, instead of
                    hoping that an item will show up on EBay sometimes. Besides buying
                    something on EBay won't bring any money to the original manufacturer.

                    The same is true, I believe, for the growth of the Z customer numbers.
                    If they see something, and want to knew where they can get it, now
                    often you have to tell them "XYZ made this, but you will have to see
                    if you find it at EBay...". This isn't a good argument for getting
                    into Z.

                    I knew the solution for this problem isn't easy, maybe especially for
                    the small producer of things.

                    --
                    GreetingZ
                    Uwe
                  • Zane H. Healy
                    ... I d just like to point out that I m not saying I want everything I want for my trains NOW! Quite the opposite, I m happy to wait, and add an item here and
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jun 3, 2007
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                      At 9:56 AM +0000 6/3/07, Allan Miller wrote:
                      >I'm not sure what the problem is with today's consumer-hobbyists.
                      >They seem to want everything that THEY want, and they want it NOW! I
                      >see this in the other scales I model, and in some or most cases it is
                      >doing more harm to the hobby than good. As I've said so often in

                      I'd just like to point out that I'm not saying I want everything I
                      want for my trains NOW! Quite the opposite, I'm happy to wait, and
                      add an item here and there. It helps to keep things affordable.

                      What I am saying is that when I walk into a train store a couple days
                      after a new car, or cars are announced and am informed that I can't
                      buy them, because the store is sold out and can't get any more from
                      MTL, I consider this to be a problem.

                      Call me strange, but I for one would rather pay more to support a
                      store in my own community, I don't want to have to order online from
                      another state. In fact this is one reason that I really like buying
                      MTL products, I'm an Oregonian, and by buying MTL I'm helping to
                      support an Oregon business.

                      >If MTL or someone else announces something you want to buy, establish
                      >a good, regular relationship with a dealer and get your order placed
                      >on their list. Otherwise, take your chances when the item is
                      >eventually released and find a dealer who has it available or shop the
                      >secondary market.

                      >My feeling is that MTL, in particular, has done a very good job in
                      >giving folks a heads-up about what they are planning, and estimating
                      >when it may be available. They try to be realistic in meeting the

                      OK, I'm curious, am I missing something here? We know that the Army
                      train is coming around the bend, and that the GP9's are on the way.
                      We actually know what the first GP9 will be. We also know about the
                      passenger cars and F8's (or is it E8). I'd like the Army train, but
                      will probably pass on it, unless I happen to get lucky and spot it in
                      my FLHS and decide on a whim to buy it. The rest I'll be wanting to
                      buy if I can get the roads I'm collecting.

                      All of the above info is very vague though, and it's hard to place
                      orders on vague. Can you tell me what the July cars are? This is
                      what I'm talking about. How are we to know if any of the July cars
                      are anything we want to get? By the time we do find out if they are
                      something we want, we run the risk of them being sold out before we
                      can get them.

                      Zane


                      --
                      | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
                      | healyzh@... (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
                      | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector |
                      +----------------------------------+----------------------------+
                      | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
                      | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
                      | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
                    • Mike D.
                      Uwe I have never seen a response so eloquently worded, you are truly the politician! I vote for you for Mayor of Zville, will someone second the nomination?
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jun 3, 2007
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                        Uwe I have never seen a response so eloquently worded, you are truly the
                        politician! I vote for you for Mayor of Zville, will someone second the
                        nomination? I�ve never seen such a swift �reverse 180� are you into racing
                        too?

                        In regards to second runs being cheaper for MTL to do that�s simply
                        ridiculous even with existing molds, labor has gone up and so is every other
                        aspect of manufacturing. Tooling could have even changed requiring mold
                        modifications or complete rework of the molds/new molds altogether. So no it
                        won�t be cheaper even with the very same production house.

                        Another question that comes to mind, why are they beating to death the same
                        old lines? Why aren�t they doing anything in the Fallen Flags lines? Those
                        lines are still being modeled in fairly large numbers and most of the stuff
                        is coming from the cottage industry side of MRR, thank the almighty for
                        those guy�s if it weren�t for them we�d all be running BNSF, CSX, UP, and
                        SP.

                        Just take a look at what Chad did recently, with only some help from Uncle
                        Will, he brought in the Bill K. car, On Time, At Cost. He didn�t sit in a
                        conference room bickering with the N Scale team and he didn�t have to
                        connive management for a budget, AND he didn�t leave a Single modeler
                        hanging in the lurch.

                        All this makes one Really Appreciate all the efforts of Robert, Tim, Rob,
                        Loren, Uncle Will, Trainnut and now Chad. Thanks Guys you are truly the
                        Gucci�s and Armani�s of small scale model railroading today!

                        Aaron, I can always expect to see some responsible and pertinent to the
                        subject at hand when I read your posts. Hopefully someone at MTL will take
                        heed of your suggestion?

                        To take that a step further they should also have regional reps to include
                        Canada, Germany, Switzerland, Norway and Denmark or at the very least an
                        order/pre-order form on the MTL website where they could then offer the reps
                        exclusive access to projected sales in their areas. MTL should also come to
                        terms with the fact that they aren�t a little company any more. Trust me
                        there is nothing sitting on the shelves of my LHS for more than a day or two
                        excepting the standard stock of Micro-Track. If I�m not there by Friday of
                        the week it�s released, well shame on me.

                        Right now they are the largest supplier of mass produced Z scale items, this
                        won�t always be the case. Other manufacturers are bound to see the revenue
                        potential and squeeze their way in as well. The stunt with the N Scale Pan
                        Am car won you more than a few disgruntled fans (not the best marketing
                        approach ever deployed). Also why didn�t we even see this car in Z scale?
                        Hmmm?

                        /s/ Another HAVE TO HAVE IT RIGHT NOW, hurting the Hobby, Z Scale enthusiast



                        >From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@...>
                        >Reply-To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                        >To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                        >Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: MTL Production Numbers
                        >Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 12:54:03 -0700
                        >
                        >At 9:56 AM +0000 6/3/07, Allan Miller wrote:
                        > >I'm not sure what the problem is with today's consumer-hobbyists.
                        > >They seem to want everything that THEY want, and they want it NOW! I
                        > >see this in the other scales I model, and in some or most cases it is
                        > >doing more harm to the hobby than good. As I've said so often in
                        >
                        >I'd just like to point out that I'm not saying I want everything I
                        >want for my trains NOW! Quite the opposite, I'm happy to wait, and
                        >add an item here and there. It helps to keep things affordable.
                        >
                        >What I am saying is that when I walk into a train store a couple days
                        >after a new car, or cars are announced and am informed that I can't
                        >buy them, because the store is sold out and can't get any more from
                        >MTL, I consider this to be a problem.
                        >
                        >Call me strange, but I for one would rather pay more to support a
                        >store in my own community, I don't want to have to order online from
                        >another state. In fact this is one reason that I really like buying
                        >MTL products, I'm an Oregonian, and by buying MTL I'm helping to
                        >support an Oregon business.
                        >
                        > >If MTL or someone else announces something you want to buy, establish
                        > >a good, regular relationship with a dealer and get your order placed
                        > >on their list. Otherwise, take your chances when the item is
                        > >eventually released and find a dealer who has it available or shop the
                        > >secondary market.
                        >
                        > >My feeling is that MTL, in particular, has done a very good job in
                        > >giving folks a heads-up about what they are planning, and estimating
                        > >when it may be available. They try to be realistic in meeting the
                        >
                        >OK, I'm curious, am I missing something here? We know that the Army
                        >train is coming around the bend, and that the GP9's are on the way.
                        >We actually know what the first GP9 will be. We also know about the
                        >passenger cars and F8's (or is it E8). I'd like the Army train, but
                        >will probably pass on it, unless I happen to get lucky and spot it in
                        >my FLHS and decide on a whim to buy it. The rest I'll be wanting to
                        >buy if I can get the roads I'm collecting.
                        >
                        >All of the above info is very vague though, and it's hard to place
                        >orders on vague. Can you tell me what the July cars are? This is
                        >what I'm talking about. How are we to know if any of the July cars
                        >are anything we want to get? By the time we do find out if they are
                        >something we want, we run the risk of them being sold out before we
                        >can get them.
                        >
                        > Zane
                        >
                        >
                        >--
                        >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
                        >| healyzh@... (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
                        >| MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector |
                        >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
                        >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
                        >| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
                        >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |

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                      • Don Avila
                        We can talk to ourselves until we are blue in the face. It is the two sisters at MTL that have to be convinces there is money in Z. ... the
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jun 3, 2007
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                          We can talk to ourselves until we are blue in the face.

                          It is the two sisters at MTL that have to be convinces there is money
                          in Z.

                          ...don

                          --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Mike D." <zscaletrains@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Uwe I have never seen a response so eloquently worded, you are truly
                          the
                          > politician!
                        • Karin Svenson
                          ... money ... Don, just don t turn into one of those Blue Guys that play with plastic pipe! My 2 bits worth is this... if MTL s leadership doesn t step up to
                          Message 12 of 28 , Jun 3, 2007
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                            --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Don Avila" <d.f.avila@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > We can talk to ourselves until we are blue in the face.
                            >
                            > It is the two sisters at MTL that have to be convinces there is
                            money
                            > in Z.

                            Don, just don't turn into one of those "Blue Guys" that play with
                            plastic pipe!

                            My 2 bits worth is this... if MTL's leadership doesn't step up to the
                            plate and if AZL remains too expensive for many then I hope Athearn,
                            Atlas, Bachmann, or similar companies to put their toes in the
                            water. Remember, they didn't go into N scale right away and now you
                            can get some very nice prototypical motive power and rolling stock in
                            just about all of the major road names, even in Alaska! Granted some
                            are cheaper than others but they offer affordable high end N scale.
                            Competition is what gets us more, and better, in every product known
                            to man. I'm glad old man Henry Ford wasn't the only producer of
                            automobiles, who knows what few styles and low efficieny cars we'd be
                            driving now.

                            I cannot believe that these other companies are not rubbing their
                            chins as they contemplate the Z scale market. They have to be at
                            least THINKING about it, no?

                            Karin
                          • Don Avila
                            My worthless guess is that some of these manufacturers will take a GOOD look around Detroit this summer, and then begin to consider spending some tooling
                            Message 13 of 28 , Jun 3, 2007
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                              My worthless guess is that some of these manufacturers will take a
                              GOOD look around Detroit this summer, and then begin to consider
                              spending some tooling money. Detroit is only 8 weeks away -- Isn't
                              that 7+1 or 6+2? It's a big commitment to start off on another scale.
                              And there is a BIG chicken/egg world out there that has to pay the
                              bills. I see Loren was helping promote the product in San Jose
                              yesterday/today] ...don

                              - - -

                              > Don, just don't turn into one of those "Blue Guys" that play with
                              > plastic pipe!
                              >
                              > My 2 bits worth is this... if MTL's leadership doesn't step up to the
                              > plate and if AZL remains too expensive for many then I hope Athearn,
                              > Atlas, Bachmann, or similar companies to put their toes in the
                              > water. Remember, they didn't go into N scale right away and now you
                              > can get some very nice prototypical motive power and rolling stock in
                              > just about all of the major road names, even in Alaska! Granted some
                              > are cheaper than others but they offer affordable high end N scale.
                              > Competition is what gets us more, and better, in every product known
                              > to man. I'm glad old man Henry Ford wasn't the only producer of
                              > automobiles, who knows what few styles and low efficieny cars we'd be
                              > driving now.
                              >
                              > I cannot believe that these other companies are not rubbing their
                              > chins as they contemplate the Z scale market. They have to be at
                              > least THINKING about it, no?
                              >
                              > Karin
                              >
                            • Mike D.
                              Say It Ain t So, Don... MTL is operated by two women? Well that explains that. My dealer called them in inquire about a car for me and something called runner
                              Message 14 of 28 , Jun 3, 2007
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                                Say It Ain't So, Don...

                                MTL is operated by two women? Well that explains that.

                                My dealer called them in inquire about a car for me and something called
                                'runner set's #4 and #5 it think it was, the woman who answered the phone
                                not knowing she was on speaker phone didn't just get nasty real quick, she
                                got ultra-NASTY. Now my dealer (who looks exactly like Wolfman Jack did)
                                looked at me with the widest eyes I've ever seen on a Human in all my life.
                                No no receptionist in the world would dare to speak to a customer like that
                                for fear of her job, so it had to be one of these women.

                                I'm not taking anything away from women in business I hope all will
                                understand. But from this attitude it's clearly evident nothing will change
                                and those personnel at MTL must have their hands full in dealing with that
                                kind of mentality. They must of had to walk to school (uphill, both ways).

                                Karin, I sure hope your assessment is right, for them to not take advantage
                                while they 'Owned' the market and had the chance to establish themselves as
                                the leader. To just give the opportunity away, well that just seems to be
                                the American way these days. I realize all to well that if it was easy then
                                boy scouts and girl scouts would be doing it. Whats going on here is just a
                                shame, a plain ole shame.

                                /s/ Not Really a GOT TO HAVE IT NOW, disgruntled, Hurting the Hobby, MTL
                                fan.


                                >From: "Karin Svenson" <karin@...>
                                >Reply-To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                >To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                >Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: MTL Production Numbers
                                >Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 23:21:27 -0000
                                >
                                >--- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Don Avila" <d.f.avila@...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > We can talk to ourselves until we are blue in the face.
                                > >
                                > > It is the two sisters at MTL that have to be convinces there is
                                >money
                                > > in Z.
                                >
                                >Don, just don't turn into one of those "Blue Guys" that play with
                                >plastic pipe!
                                >
                                >My 2 bits worth is this... if MTL's leadership doesn't step up to the
                                >plate and if AZL remains too expensive for many then I hope Athearn,
                                >Atlas, Bachmann, or similar companies to put their toes in the
                                >water. Remember, they didn't go into N scale right away and now you
                                >can get some very nice prototypical motive power and rolling stock in
                                >just about all of the major road names, even in Alaska! Granted some
                                >are cheaper than others but they offer affordable high end N scale.
                                >Competition is what gets us more, and better, in every product known
                                >to man. I'm glad old man Henry Ford wasn't the only producer of
                                >automobiles, who knows what few styles and low efficieny cars we'd be
                                >driving now.
                                >
                                >I cannot believe that these other companies are not rubbing their
                                >chins as they contemplate the Z scale market. They have to be at
                                >least THINKING about it, no?
                                >
                                >Karin
                                >

                                _________________________________________________________________
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                              • Don Avila
                                Give Loren a couple of days to get his feet back on the ground and drop him an Email. He s been at a train show with Joe with at least two of the new GP9 s
                                Message 15 of 28 , Jun 3, 2007
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                                  Give Loren a couple of days to get his feet back on the ground and
                                  drop him an Email. He's been at a train show with Joe with at least
                                  two of the new GP9's fully decorated. Check out TRAINBOARD for the
                                  colors. Loren is in at MTL regularly and can can fill you in on
                                  details, even the names of who to write to or whatever. I didn't
                                  think the sisters answered the phones, but who knows. MTL has quite a
                                  few employees.

                                  ...don


                                  > Say It Ain't So, Don...
                                  >
                                  > MTL is operated by two women? Well that explains that.
                                  >
                                  > My dealer called them in inquire about a car for me and something
                                  called
                                  > 'runner set's #4 and #5 it think it was, the woman who answered the
                                  phone
                                  > not knowing she was on speaker phone didn't just get nasty real
                                  quick, she
                                  > got ultra-NASTY. Now my dealer (who looks exactly like Wolfman Jack
                                  did)
                                  > looked at me with the widest eyes I've ever seen on a Human in all
                                  my life.
                                  > No no receptionist in the world would dare to speak to a customer
                                  like that
                                  > for fear of her job, so it had to be one of these women.
                                  >
                                  > I'm not taking anything away from women in business I hope all will
                                  > understand. But from this attitude it's clearly evident nothing will
                                  change
                                  > and those personnel at MTL must have their hands full in dealing
                                  with that
                                  > kind of mentality. They must of had to walk to school (uphill, both
                                  ways).
                                  >
                                  > Karin, I sure hope your assessment is right, for them to not take
                                  advantage
                                  > while they 'Owned' the market and had the chance to establish
                                  themselves as
                                  > the leader. To just give the opportunity away, well that just seems
                                  to be
                                  > the American way these days. I realize all to well that if it was
                                  easy then
                                  > boy scouts and girl scouts would be doing it. Whats going on here is
                                  just a
                                  > shame, a plain ole shame.
                                • Joe DAmato
                                  Boy, I go to San Francisco for a day of train runnin and come back to this!! :o) Hey, I d love to tell you all what s coming in the way of road names, but
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Jun 3, 2007
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                                    Boy, I go to San Francisco for a day of train runnin' and come back
                                    to this!! :o)

                                    Hey, I'd love to tell you all what's coming in the way of road names,
                                    but that's a lot more complicated than talking about new product
                                    development. It's also something done by a different part of the
                                    company and I think there's someting to do with letting dealers know
                                    what and when and when to let customers know, and what and
                                    when...oye..my head hurts. We've come a long way in the past 4 years
                                    and I wouldn't be surprised if we continue to move and change in the
                                    comming months and years...and as we do I announce what I can.

                                    Cheers

                                    Joe



                                    --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Edward Scullin <sculline@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Don
                                    > I think what was meant about giving notice as to what is coming out
                                    refered to road names Joe D
                                    > has been great about what he knows is coming, but still kind of
                                    quiet about specific road names.
                                    > I think if what was stated here earlier about a 6 month lead time,
                                    It would make sense if MTL
                                    > would announce the road names and then see what additional orders
                                    appear. Granted a lot of
                                    > dealers aare signed up to take X of what ever MTL produces. If I
                                    read the post from Aaron
                                    > correctly dealers can be fairly selective (IE this month I want X
                                    tank cars, Y box cars etc).
                                    > Ed Scullin
                                    >
                                    > --- Don Avila <d.f.avila@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > [snip]
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Okay, this brings up another question, why all the secrecy on
                                    what is
                                    > > > coming out?
                                    > > > Zane
                                    > >
                                    > > Ummmmmm,
                                    > >
                                    > > Joe has been pretty open with us. We have known about the GP9
                                    for a
                                    > > LOOOOONG time. Finished production photos of the the first
                                    version
                                    > > are on Trainboard and they are spectacular He told us about the
                                    > > turnouts and new track more than half a year before they came
                                    out.
                                    > > The other day he told us the turnout motors will be available
                                    > > separately in a few months and of course they are now available
                                    with
                                    > > track. Many months before the Digitrax drop in DCC came out Joe
                                    told
                                    > > us about it. He has been telling us about the passenger cars
                                    coming.
                                    > > He has been telling us about some of the new engines with 6 wheel
                                    > > trucks.
                                    > >
                                    > > I hardly call it secrecy ESPECIALLY where it really truly comes
                                    out
                                    > > and is not Vapor-Ware.
                                    > >
                                    > > ...don
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • Alan Cox
                                    ... So get her name and get her fired. And tell me you ve never had a man do the same...
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Jun 4, 2007
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                                      > got ultra-NASTY. Now my dealer (who looks exactly like Wolfman Jack did)
                                      > looked at me with the widest eyes I've ever seen on a Human in all my life.
                                      > No no receptionist in the world would dare to speak to a customer like that
                                      > for fear of her job, so it had to be one of these women.

                                      So get her name and get her fired. And tell me you've never had a man do
                                      the same...
                                    • Garth Hamilton
                                      Guys if you are so sure you can do a better job then go get a job at MTL or better yet make an offer the current owners can not turn down and show us what you
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Jun 4, 2007
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                                        Guys if you are so sure you can do a better job then go get a job at
                                        MTL or better yet make an offer the current owners can not turn down
                                        and show us what you can do. Otherwise you are a lay preacher
                                        preaching to the already converted and it a rehash of what we have
                                        all heard. MTL management is not listening here. Joe is that is a
                                        truly bright light so don't blow it out.

                                        Garth Hamilton
                                        one of the converted
                                      • Edward Scullin
                                        Joe We can t really ask for any more than that. BUT Ed Scullin Thanks for filling us in when you can.
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Jun 4, 2007
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                                          Joe
                                          We can't really ask for any more than that. BUT
                                          Ed Scullin
                                          Thanks for filling us in when you can.

                                          --- Joe DAmato <shipsure2003@...> wrote:

                                          > Boy, I go to San Francisco for a day of train runnin' and come back
                                          > to this!! :o)
                                          >
                                          > Hey, I'd love to tell you all what's coming in the way of road names,
                                          > but that's a lot more complicated than talking about new product

                                          ...and as we do I announce what I can.
                                          >
                                          > Cheers
                                          >
                                          > Joe
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Edward Scullin <sculline@...> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Don
                                          > > I think what was meant about giving notice as to what is coming out
                                          > refered to road names Joe D
                                          > > has been great about what he knows is coming, but still kind of
                                          > quiet about specific road names.
                                          > > I think if what was stated here earlier about a 6 month lead time,
                                          > It would make sense if MTL
                                          > > would announce the road names and then see what additional orders
                                          > appear. Granted a lot of
                                          > > dealers aare signed up to take X of what ever MTL produces. If I
                                          > read the post from Aaron
                                          > > correctly dealers can be fairly selective (IE this month I want X
                                          > tank cars, Y box cars etc).
                                          > > Ed Scullin
                                          > >
                                          > > --- Don Avila <d.f.avila@...> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > > [snip]
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Okay, this brings up another question, why all the secrecy on
                                          > what is
                                          > > > > coming out?
                                          > > > > Zane
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Ummmmmm,
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Joe has been pretty open with us. We have known about the GP9
                                          > for a
                                          > > > LOOOOONG time. Finished production photos of the the first
                                          > version
                                          > > > are on Trainboard and they are spectacular He told us about the
                                          > > > turnouts and new track more than half a year before they came
                                          > out.
                                          > > > The other day he told us the turnout motors will be available
                                          > > > separately in a few months and of course they are now available
                                          > with
                                          > > > track. Many months before the Digitrax drop in DCC came out Joe
                                          > told
                                          > > > us about it. He has been telling us about the passenger cars
                                          > coming.
                                          > > > He has been telling us about some of the new engines with 6 wheel
                                          > > > trucks.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > I hardly call it secrecy ESPECIALLY where it really truly comes
                                          > out
                                          > > > and is not Vapor-Ware.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > ...don
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
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