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MTL Production Numbers

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  • Zane H. Healy
    Is anyone else having problems with their FLHS (favorite local hobby store) having problems getting enough of the MTL trains? I m told that the SP Hoppers
    Message 1 of 28 , Jun 1, 2007
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      Is anyone else having problems with their FLHS (favorite local hobby
      store) having problems getting enough of the MTL trains? I'm told
      that the SP Hoppers sold out in 2 hours in May (and they couldn't get
      more), and that within 30 minutes MTL was sold out of the SP&S
      Boxcar. My FLHS will apparently get 12 of the SP&S boxcar in next
      week, one of them should be reserved for me.

      Now I'm guessing that not every item is selling out like these two,
      and I don't know if it is possible to accurately predict what the
      "hot" items will be, but it would sure be nice to see cars remain
      available longer.

      Is this a new problem, or is it common? I've only been back into
      trains and actively collecting Z Scale since the Portland WGH show a
      few months ago. I do know that right after the show my FLHS had a
      full rotating display counter case full of MTL trains, now it is
      mostly the Marklin trains that had been in another case, as they
      can't keep the MTL products in.

      Zane




      --
      | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
      | healyzh@... (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
      | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector |
      +----------------------------------+----------------------------+
      | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
      | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
      | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
    • de Champeaux Dominique
      Yes, myself: that s why I continue to mainly order my stuff on the web (mostly Modellbahnn Ott Hobbies). Whatever hapens, there s a 15-day gap between my order
      Message 2 of 28 , Jun 2, 2007
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        Yes, myself: that's why I continue to mainly order my
        stuff on the web (mostly Modellbahnn Ott Hobbies).
        Whatever hapens, there's a 15-day gap between my order
        and shipment, and I'm completely pleased with this.
        Furthermore, my local hobby shop is a little bit a
        mess and when I take an order they oftenly forget to
        submit it to the manufacturers.....When MTL released
        their turnouts last fall, I took an order on the web,
        and another at my FLHS. The resulting difference has
        been about 6 months, the winner beeing the US web
        order (I'm living in France).

        Dom


        --- "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@...> a écrit :

        > Is anyone else having problems with their FLHS
        > (favorite local hobby
        > store) having problems getting enough of the MTL
        > trains?







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      • John Duino
        MTL probably just hasn t been bold/brave enough to increase the production to match the increase in both the number of resellers that have appeared in the last
        Message 3 of 28 , Jun 2, 2007
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          MTL probably just hasn't been bold/brave enough to increase the
          production to match the increase in both the number of resellers that
          have appeared in the last couple years, and the even bigger increase in
          demand by all of us. I don't blame them...they need to be careful and
          not overextend themselves.

          On Fri, 2007-06-01 at 21:36 -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote:
          > Is anyone else having problems with their FLHS (favorite local hobby
          > store) having problems getting enough of the MTL trains? I'm told
          > that the SP Hoppers sold out in 2 hours in May (and they couldn't get
          > more), and that within 30 minutes MTL was sold out of the SP&S
          > Boxcar. My FLHS will apparently get 12 of the SP&S boxcar in next
          > week, one of them should be reserved for me.
          >
          > Now I'm guessing that not every item is selling out like these two,
          > and I don't know if it is possible to accurately predict what the
          > "hot" items will be, but it would sure be nice to see cars remain
          > available longer.
          >
          > Is this a new problem, or is it common? I've only been back into
          > trains and actively collecting Z Scale since the Portland WGH show a
          > few months ago. I do know that right after the show my FLHS had a
          > full rotating display counter case full of MTL trains, now it is
          > mostly the Marklin trains that had been in another case, as they
          > can't keep the MTL products in.
          >
          > Zane
          >
          >
          >
        • Uwe Liermann
          Hello John, ... I can understand that MTL (as any other manufacturer) won t produce to much of an item in a run, so it doesn t sit on the shelf to long. But
          Message 4 of 28 , Jun 2, 2007
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            Hello John,

            > MTL probably just hasn't been bold/brave enough to increase the
            > production [...] they need to be careful and not overextend
            > themselves.

            I can understand that MTL (as any other manufacturer) won't produce to
            much of an item in a run, so it doesn't sit on the shelf to long. But
            how about a second or third run when the item is almost sold out?
            Currently I got the impression that there are one run were a certain
            number gets produced. Am I wrong when I think that it can't be so
            expensive just to start a second run? Or does it take to long in
            scheduling at the factorys involved? Besides, this would also mean a
            reduction in costs for construction and research for any item, since
            those fixed costs are divided to more items, or with the selling price
            the same, a bit more stays at the manufacturer for developing new
            items...

            --
            GreetingZ
            Uwe
          • Allan Miller
            I would tend to agree with John. I think MTL is wise to be conservative in regard to quantities they produce. It seems to me that the model railroading hobby
            Message 5 of 28 , Jun 2, 2007
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              I would tend to agree with John. I think MTL is wise to be
              conservative in regard to quantities they produce. It seems to me
              that the model railroading hobby has, in recent years, become a bit of
              a minefield for the manufacturers, with increasingly demanding and
              finnicky consumers making it rather difficult for the manufacturers to
              get a handle on what may or may not sell well, and in what numbers.
              Far better to have empty shelves in the warehouse than to have stacks
              of unsold product--some thing that applies at both the manufacturing
              and retail level.

              I know I had to shop around a bit to locate an MTL Chehalis set
              because I tend not to preorder train items (a lesson learned through
              my involvement in O gauge). I just take my chances, and like to wait
              until an item is actually available. If I'm able to get a particular
              item, that's fine; if not, I just wait for something else to come
              along. I've found that there's always a whole lot more out there that
              I want and like, and have never had a problem--in any scale--finding
              far more train items than my budget will allow.



              --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, John Duino <jduino@...> wrote:
              >
              > MTL probably just hasn't been bold/brave enough to increase the
              > production to match the increase in both the number of resellers
              that have appeared in the last couple years, and the even bigger
              increase in demand by all of us. I don't blame them...they need to be
              careful and not overextend themselves.
              >
            • Gwyl B.
              I m not sure about MTL, but I do know about other companies that produce items like these. Their production is usually out more than 6 months or so and to do
              Message 6 of 28 , Jun 2, 2007
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                I'm not sure about MTL, but I do know about other companies that produce items like these.
                Their production is usually out more than 6 months or so and to do 2nd or 3rd run would be
                way done the pike and would need to be scheduled into the regular schedule which in most
                cases doesn't happen or is not pratical from a financial or production stand point. It's good
                to keep in mind that the products we are buying today were most likely produced more than
                a half a year ago.

                In a perfect world MTL would sell their last item to the last person wanting one and then
                move on to another product but until the perfect world gets here I would think MTL wise to
                under produce than over produce and have warehouse full of unsold product.

                Just my 2 cents. :-)

                Gwyl B.
              • non
                From what I under stand about MTL items being sold out within days. The stores have to place their orders before knowing what coming out. I know I have a store
                Message 7 of 28 , Jun 2, 2007
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                  From what I under stand about MTL items being sold out within days.
                  The stores have to place their orders before knowing what coming out.
                  I know I have a store and purchase from MTL for the past five years.
                  The store owners signup to get so many box cars, cab, tanks per
                  month. A small store like myself would have 4 to 6 of each on order.
                  Now the new releases come out. And the store owner sees that a road
                  name in his area sell fast. He might or migh NOT get the extra cars.
                  MTL looks at their production needs per standing orders, not roads.
                  So if MTL know they need 3,000 of each box that is what they run. If
                  the road is a HOT road they "might" run a few extra.
                  So, as a store owner you have to have a large standing order and hope
                  the road names sell within a few months.
                  Aaron Poscovsky
                  >
                  > I'm not sure about MTL, but I do know about other companies that
                  produce items like these.
                  > Their production is usually out more than 6 months or so and to do
                  2nd or 3rd run would be
                  > way done the pike and would need to be scheduled into the regular
                  schedule which in most
                  > cases doesn't happen or is not pratical from a financial or
                  production stand point. It's good
                  > to keep in mind that the products we are buying today were most
                  likely produced more than
                  > a half a year ago.
                  >
                  > In a perfect world MTL would sell their last item to the last
                  person wanting one and then
                  > move on to another product but until the perfect world gets here I
                  would think MTL wise to
                  > under produce than over produce and have warehouse full of unsold
                  product.
                  >
                  > Just my 2 cents. :-)
                  >
                  > Gwyl B.
                  >
                • Zane H. Healy
                  ... Okay, this brings up another question, why all the secrecy on what is coming out? Perhaps they need to at least make a change to their ordering methods
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jun 2, 2007
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                    At 2:51 PM +0000 6/2/07, non wrote:
                    >From what I under stand about MTL items being sold out within days.
                    >The stores have to place their orders before knowing what coming out.
                    >I know I have a store and purchase from MTL for the past five years.
                    >The store owners signup to get so many box cars, cab, tanks per
                    >month. A small store like myself would have 4 to 6 of each on order.
                    >Now the new releases come out. And the store owner sees that a road
                    >name in his area sell fast. He might or migh NOT get the extra cars.
                    >MTL looks at their production needs per standing orders, not roads.
                    >So if MTL know they need 3,000 of each box that is what they run. If
                    >the road is a HOT road they "might" run a few extra.
                    >So, as a store owner you have to have a large standing order and hope
                    >the road names sell within a few months.
                    >Aaron Poscovsky

                    Okay, this brings up another question, why all the secrecy on what is
                    coming out? Perhaps they need to at least make a change to their
                    ordering methods and allow stores to designate certain road names
                    that they will automatically get extra of. As someone who prefers to
                    buy stuff from their FLHS, rather than online, the current state of
                    things is less than optimal.

                    Having said this, I can understand that MTL and the Hobby Stores
                    can't afford to have stock sitting around unsold for long periods of
                    time.

                    Zane


                    --
                    | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
                    | healyzh@... (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
                    | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector |
                    +----------------------------------+----------------------------+
                    | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
                    | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
                    | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
                  • Don Avila
                    [snip] ... Ummmmmm, Joe has been pretty open with us. We have known about the GP9 for a LOOOOONG time. Finished production photos of the the first version
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jun 2, 2007
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                      [snip]
                      >
                      > Okay, this brings up another question, why all the secrecy on what is
                      > coming out?
                      > Zane

                      Ummmmmm,

                      Joe has been pretty open with us. We have known about the GP9 for a
                      LOOOOONG time. Finished production photos of the the first version
                      are on Trainboard and they are spectacular He told us about the
                      turnouts and new track more than half a year before they came out.
                      The other day he told us the turnout motors will be available
                      separately in a few months and of course they are now available with
                      track. Many months before the Digitrax drop in DCC came out Joe told
                      us about it. He has been telling us about the passenger cars coming.
                      He has been telling us about some of the new engines with 6 wheel
                      trucks.

                      I hardly call it secrecy ESPECIALLY where it really truly comes out
                      and is not Vapor-Ware.

                      ...don
                    • Mike D.
                      Don Buddy your smoking DOPE and obviously it s the good stuff!!! Vapor Ware... some items didn t even materialize on the retail market much less have a chance
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jun 2, 2007
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                        Don Buddy your smoking DOPE and obviously it's the good stuff!!! Vapor
                        Ware... some items didn't even materialize on the retail market much less
                        have a chance to vapor... Good to know obviously your on the inside. It
                        would be nice if MTL came up with a form on their website for the rest of us
                        to order from making sure ALL of us had a fair share. All I've been hearing
                        so far is "It's coming, It's coming, We're working on it, You'll get it.
                        Then on the supposedly day of release try to order, THEN you hear... It's
                        sold out... that's B*** S*** All I can say to MTL is Enjoy while you can
                        boy's your day's a coming...

                        Mike D.


                        >From: "Don Avila" <d.f.avila@...>
                        >Reply-To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                        >To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                        >Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: MTL Production Numbers
                        >Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 19:04:12 -0000
                        >
                        >[snip]
                        > >
                        > > Okay, this brings up another question, why all the secrecy on what is
                        > > coming out?
                        > > Zane
                        >
                        >Ummmmmm,
                        >
                        >Joe has been pretty open with us. We have known about the GP9 for a
                        >LOOOOONG time. Finished production photos of the the first version
                        >are on Trainboard and they are spectacular He told us about the
                        >turnouts and new track more than half a year before they came out.
                        >The other day he told us the turnout motors will be available
                        >separately in a few months and of course they are now available with
                        >track. Many months before the Digitrax drop in DCC came out Joe told
                        >us about it. He has been telling us about the passenger cars coming.
                        > He has been telling us about some of the new engines with 6 wheel
                        >trucks.
                        >
                        >I hardly call it secrecy ESPECIALLY where it really truly comes out
                        >and is not Vapor-Ware.
                        >
                        >...don
                        >
                        >

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                      • non
                        Atlas has a six month pre-order for store owners. What the mfg what is for store owners to order more, so that the mfg doesn t have to stock them the store do.
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jun 2, 2007
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                          Atlas has a six month pre-order for store owners.
                          What the mfg what is for store owners to order more, so that the mfg
                          doesn't have to stock them the store do.
                          Aaron
                          --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > At 2:51 PM +0000 6/2/07, non wrote:
                          > >From what I under stand about MTL items being sold out within days.
                          > >The stores have to place their orders before knowing what coming
                          out.
                          > >I know I have a store and purchase from MTL for the past five
                          years.
                          > >The store owners signup to get so many box cars, cab, tanks per
                          > >month. A small store like myself would have 4 to 6 of each on
                          order.
                          > >Now the new releases come out. And the store owner sees that a road
                          > >name in his area sell fast. He might or migh NOT get the extra
                          cars.
                          > >MTL looks at their production needs per standing orders, not roads.
                          > >So if MTL know they need 3,000 of each box that is what they run.
                          If
                          > >the road is a HOT road they "might" run a few extra.
                          > >So, as a store owner you have to have a large standing order and
                          hope
                          > >the road names sell within a few months.
                          > >Aaron Poscovsky
                          >
                          > Okay, this brings up another question, why all the secrecy on what
                          is
                          > coming out? Perhaps they need to at least make a change to their
                          > ordering methods and allow stores to designate certain road names
                          > that they will automatically get extra of. As someone who prefers
                          to
                          > buy stuff from their FLHS, rather than online, the current state of
                          > things is less than optimal.
                          >
                          > Having said this, I can understand that MTL and the Hobby Stores
                          > can't afford to have stock sitting around unsold for long periods
                          of
                          > time.
                          >
                          > Zane
                          >
                          >
                          > --
                          > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
                          > | healyzh@... (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
                          > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector |
                          > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+
                          > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
                          > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
                          > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
                          >
                        • Edward Scullin
                          Don I think what was meant about giving notice as to what is coming out refered to road names Joe D has been great about what he knows is coming, but still
                          Message 12 of 28 , Jun 2, 2007
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                            Don
                            I think what was meant about giving notice as to what is coming out refered to road names Joe D
                            has been great about what he knows is coming, but still kind of quiet about specific road names.
                            I think if what was stated here earlier about a 6 month lead time, It would make sense if MTL
                            would announce the road names and then see what additional orders appear. Granted a lot of
                            dealers aare signed up to take X of what ever MTL produces. If I read the post from Aaron
                            correctly dealers can be fairly selective (IE this month I want X tank cars, Y box cars etc).
                            Ed Scullin

                            --- Don Avila <d.f.avila@...> wrote:

                            > [snip]
                            > >
                            > > Okay, this brings up another question, why all the secrecy on what is
                            > > coming out?
                            > > Zane
                            >
                            > Ummmmmm,
                            >
                            > Joe has been pretty open with us. We have known about the GP9 for a
                            > LOOOOONG time. Finished production photos of the the first version
                            > are on Trainboard and they are spectacular He told us about the
                            > turnouts and new track more than half a year before they came out.
                            > The other day he told us the turnout motors will be available
                            > separately in a few months and of course they are now available with
                            > track. Many months before the Digitrax drop in DCC came out Joe told
                            > us about it. He has been telling us about the passenger cars coming.
                            > He has been telling us about some of the new engines with 6 wheel
                            > trucks.
                            >
                            > I hardly call it secrecy ESPECIALLY where it really truly comes out
                            > and is not Vapor-Ware.
                            >
                            > ...don
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • Don Avila
                            Good Point. Joe and I traded a few emails about a year ago regarding announcements of items to come. Even though MTL is small, I think they have some thick
                            Message 13 of 28 , Jun 2, 2007
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                              Good Point.

                              Joe and I traded a few emails about a year ago regarding announcements
                              of items to come. Even though MTL is small, I think they have some
                              thick walls with no windows and Joe himself is not always "in the
                              know" As Z begins to make some serious dollars for the owners, I
                              think we may see some changes as to how things are done.

                              ...don

                              --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Edward Scullin <sculline@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Don
                              > I think what was meant about giving notice as to what is coming out
                              refered to road names Joe D
                              > has been great about what he knows is coming, but still kind of
                              quiet about specific road names.
                              > I think if what was stated here earlier about a 6 month lead time,
                              It would make sense if MTL
                              > would announce the road names and then see what additional orders
                              appear. Granted a lot of
                              > dealers aare signed up to take X of what ever MTL produces. If I
                              read the post from Aaron
                              > correctly dealers can be fairly selective (IE this month I want X
                              tank cars, Y box cars etc).
                              > Ed Scullin
                              >
                              > --- Don Avila <d.f.avila@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > > [snip]
                              > > >
                              > > > Okay, this brings up another question, why all the secrecy on
                              what is
                              > > > coming out?
                              > > > Zane
                              > >
                              > > Ummmmmm,
                              > >
                              > > Joe has been pretty open with us.
                            • non
                              A good way to help out any hobby store owner that wants your business is let him/her know what you are looking for. Should it might be a dream item, but guest
                              Message 14 of 28 , Jun 2, 2007
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                                A good way to help out any hobby store owner that wants your business
                                is let him/her know what you are looking for.
                                Should it might be a dream item, but guest what if you mention an item
                                and he/she hears it a few times from other, The owner will help push
                                for the item from the mfg.
                                And you know how that happens, he/she start mentioning it to the mfg
                                when the orders are place.
                                Ex. The owner emails Mark at MTL on the sales desk. And say "Hey, think
                                we might see a XXXX item coming out one day?"
                                M ark will say he does know. But, if a few owner ask, he will get upset
                                with the question and mention it to someone over him.
                                Please, just drop a note once in awhile to your hobby store owner,
                                asking about items you are looking for. Perhaps, if he/his wants your
                                business they will start stocking it.
                                Aaron Poscovsky
                              • John Duino
                                Hi! To reword what someone else said (sorry I forgot to register WHO said it before I hit delete), MTL does make 2nd/3rd runs eventually, but you have to fit
                                Message 15 of 28 , Jun 2, 2007
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                                  Hi!

                                  To reword what someone else said (sorry I forgot to register WHO said it
                                  before I hit delete), MTL does make 2nd/3rd runs eventually, but you
                                  have to fit it into the production schedule. MTL only has so many
                                  painters, so many assemblers, so many testers...and if they are
                                  producing that then something else 'new' can't come out. This crowd is a
                                  fickle one...if they re-run then people complain that nothing new is
                                  coming out. If it's all new stuff then people want reissues. Short of
                                  staffing up, going 24/7, and expanding the facilities (all costly)
                                  there's no way of pleasing everyone.

                                  Having been around Z for awhile (first 'taste' in 77, more seriously
                                  since ~98) I can't be more pleased with the variety of goodies available
                                  in Z nowadays.

                                  On Sat, 2007-06-02 at 11:22 +0200, Uwe Liermann wrote:
                                  > Hello John,
                                  >
                                  > > MTL probably just hasn't been bold/brave enough to increase the
                                  > > production [...] they need to be careful and not overextend
                                  > > themselves.
                                  >
                                  > I can understand that MTL (as any other manufacturer) won't produce to
                                  > much of an item in a run, so it doesn't sit on the shelf to long. But
                                  > how about a second or third run when the item is almost sold out?
                                  > Currently I got the impression that there are one run were a certain
                                  > number gets produced. Am I wrong when I think that it can't be so
                                  > expensive just to start a second run? Or does it take to long in
                                  > scheduling at the factorys involved? Besides, this would also mean a
                                  > reduction in costs for construction and research for any item, since
                                  > those fixed costs are divided to more items, or with the selling price
                                  > the same, a bit more stays at the manufacturer for developing new
                                  > items...
                                  >
                                  --
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                                • Allan Miller
                                  ... of staffing up, going 24/7, and expanding the facilities (all costly) ... I could not agree more! There s a wealth of stuff available in Z these days, and
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Jun 3, 2007
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                                    --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, John Duino <jduino@...> wrote:
                                    >This crowd is a
                                    > fickle one...if they re-run then people complain that nothing new is
                                    > coming out. If it's all new stuff then people want reissues. Short
                                    of staffing up, going 24/7, and expanding the facilities (all costly)
                                    > there's no way of pleasing everyone.
                                    > Having been around Z for awhile (first 'taste' in 77, more seriously
                                    > since ~98) I can't be more pleased with the variety of goodies
                                    >available in Z nowadays.
                                    >

                                    I could not agree more! There's a wealth of stuff available in Z
                                    these days, and I can't imagine folks in this segment of the hobby
                                    being anything less than thrilled. It was many years in coming.

                                    I'm not sure what the problem is with today's consumer-hobbyists.
                                    They seem to want everything that THEY want, and they want it NOW! I
                                    see this in the other scales I model, and in some or most cases it is
                                    doing more harm to the hobby than good. As I've said so often in
                                    recent years: We hobbyists are our own worst enemies. We've gotten
                                    to the point where too many of us see "things" as the be-all and
                                    end-all, and too few, apparently, are willing to enjoy and make good
                                    use of what is already available (in variety and quantity never seen
                                    before) or what they already have. As I see it, the hobby is about
                                    far more than simply acquiring "things." It's about putting what we
                                    do have (and can afford) to good use. It's about creating, imagining,
                                    dreaming, acquiring new skills, learning about the history and
                                    heritage of railroading, relaxing in those all-too-rare leisure hours,
                                    and sharing in the spirit of good fellowship.

                                    If MTL or someone else announces something you want to buy, establish
                                    a good, regular relationship with a dealer and get your order placed
                                    on their list. Otherwise, take your chances when the item is
                                    eventually released and find a dealer who has it available or shop the
                                    secondary market.

                                    My feeling is that MTL, in particular, has done a very good job in
                                    giving folks a heads-up about what they are planning, and estimating
                                    when it may be available. They try to be realistic in meeting the
                                    expectations of the many diverse individuals in the hobby, but they
                                    are, I'm sure, fully aware that they can't be all things to all
                                    people. Nor should they try to be! Z scale is still a small niche in
                                    a much larger hobby, and any business in this hobby has to be very
                                    careful about the approaches they follow to assure their reasonable
                                    growth and profitability.
                                  • Uwe Liermann
                                    Hello Allan, I fully agree with this from your mail (I quote it first, even if it ... You re right that the I want it ALL NOW feeling is doing harm, even if
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Jun 3, 2007
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                                      Hello Allan,

                                      I fully agree with this from your mail (I quote it first, even if it
                                      was in your mail later on):

                                      > My feeling is that MTL, in particular, has done a very good job

                                      and I also agree with this:

                                      > I could not agree more! There's a wealth of stuff available in Z
                                      > these days, and I can't imagine folks in this segment of the hobby
                                      > being anything less than thrilled. It was many years in coming.

                                      and I also agree with this:

                                      > I'm not sure what the problem is with today's consumer-hobbyists.
                                      > They seem to want everything that THEY want, and they want it NOW! I
                                      > see this in the other scales I model, and in some or most cases it is
                                      > doing more harm to the hobby than good.

                                      You're right that the "I want it ALL NOW" feeling is doing harm, even
                                      if it seems to be the usual feeling for many things nowadays. But
                                      there are also people who doesn't want it ALL NOW. And for them this:

                                      > If MTL or someone else announces something you want to buy, establish
                                      > a good, regular relationship with a dealer and get your order placed
                                      > on their list. Otherwise, take your chances when the item is
                                      > eventually released and find a dealer who has it available or shop the
                                      > secondary market.

                                      is not the perfect solution. I see a lot of items that I would like to
                                      have or use sometimes, but I can't afford all of them right now.
                                      Partly because of my budget, and also partly because I'm not that far
                                      in my development yet. I have a relatively long wish list about items
                                      I want to have, and also for some that I would like to see, but that
                                      are not available yet. A lot of items that were produced earlier are
                                      only available via the secondary market. I think for the manufacturers
                                      it would be a lot better if the consumer could buy new, instead of
                                      hoping that an item will show up on EBay sometimes. Besides buying
                                      something on EBay won't bring any money to the original manufacturer.

                                      The same is true, I believe, for the growth of the Z customer numbers.
                                      If they see something, and want to knew where they can get it, now
                                      often you have to tell them "XYZ made this, but you will have to see
                                      if you find it at EBay...". This isn't a good argument for getting
                                      into Z.

                                      I knew the solution for this problem isn't easy, maybe especially for
                                      the small producer of things.

                                      --
                                      GreetingZ
                                      Uwe
                                    • Zane H. Healy
                                      ... I d just like to point out that I m not saying I want everything I want for my trains NOW! Quite the opposite, I m happy to wait, and add an item here and
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Jun 3, 2007
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        At 9:56 AM +0000 6/3/07, Allan Miller wrote:
                                        >I'm not sure what the problem is with today's consumer-hobbyists.
                                        >They seem to want everything that THEY want, and they want it NOW! I
                                        >see this in the other scales I model, and in some or most cases it is
                                        >doing more harm to the hobby than good. As I've said so often in

                                        I'd just like to point out that I'm not saying I want everything I
                                        want for my trains NOW! Quite the opposite, I'm happy to wait, and
                                        add an item here and there. It helps to keep things affordable.

                                        What I am saying is that when I walk into a train store a couple days
                                        after a new car, or cars are announced and am informed that I can't
                                        buy them, because the store is sold out and can't get any more from
                                        MTL, I consider this to be a problem.

                                        Call me strange, but I for one would rather pay more to support a
                                        store in my own community, I don't want to have to order online from
                                        another state. In fact this is one reason that I really like buying
                                        MTL products, I'm an Oregonian, and by buying MTL I'm helping to
                                        support an Oregon business.

                                        >If MTL or someone else announces something you want to buy, establish
                                        >a good, regular relationship with a dealer and get your order placed
                                        >on their list. Otherwise, take your chances when the item is
                                        >eventually released and find a dealer who has it available or shop the
                                        >secondary market.

                                        >My feeling is that MTL, in particular, has done a very good job in
                                        >giving folks a heads-up about what they are planning, and estimating
                                        >when it may be available. They try to be realistic in meeting the

                                        OK, I'm curious, am I missing something here? We know that the Army
                                        train is coming around the bend, and that the GP9's are on the way.
                                        We actually know what the first GP9 will be. We also know about the
                                        passenger cars and F8's (or is it E8). I'd like the Army train, but
                                        will probably pass on it, unless I happen to get lucky and spot it in
                                        my FLHS and decide on a whim to buy it. The rest I'll be wanting to
                                        buy if I can get the roads I'm collecting.

                                        All of the above info is very vague though, and it's hard to place
                                        orders on vague. Can you tell me what the July cars are? This is
                                        what I'm talking about. How are we to know if any of the July cars
                                        are anything we want to get? By the time we do find out if they are
                                        something we want, we run the risk of them being sold out before we
                                        can get them.

                                        Zane


                                        --
                                        | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
                                        | healyzh@... (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
                                        | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector |
                                        +----------------------------------+----------------------------+
                                        | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
                                        | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
                                        | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
                                      • Mike D.
                                        Uwe I have never seen a response so eloquently worded, you are truly the politician! I vote for you for Mayor of Zville, will someone second the nomination?
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Jun 3, 2007
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Uwe I have never seen a response so eloquently worded, you are truly the
                                          politician! I vote for you for Mayor of Zville, will someone second the
                                          nomination? I�ve never seen such a swift �reverse 180� are you into racing
                                          too?

                                          In regards to second runs being cheaper for MTL to do that�s simply
                                          ridiculous even with existing molds, labor has gone up and so is every other
                                          aspect of manufacturing. Tooling could have even changed requiring mold
                                          modifications or complete rework of the molds/new molds altogether. So no it
                                          won�t be cheaper even with the very same production house.

                                          Another question that comes to mind, why are they beating to death the same
                                          old lines? Why aren�t they doing anything in the Fallen Flags lines? Those
                                          lines are still being modeled in fairly large numbers and most of the stuff
                                          is coming from the cottage industry side of MRR, thank the almighty for
                                          those guy�s if it weren�t for them we�d all be running BNSF, CSX, UP, and
                                          SP.

                                          Just take a look at what Chad did recently, with only some help from Uncle
                                          Will, he brought in the Bill K. car, On Time, At Cost. He didn�t sit in a
                                          conference room bickering with the N Scale team and he didn�t have to
                                          connive management for a budget, AND he didn�t leave a Single modeler
                                          hanging in the lurch.

                                          All this makes one Really Appreciate all the efforts of Robert, Tim, Rob,
                                          Loren, Uncle Will, Trainnut and now Chad. Thanks Guys you are truly the
                                          Gucci�s and Armani�s of small scale model railroading today!

                                          Aaron, I can always expect to see some responsible and pertinent to the
                                          subject at hand when I read your posts. Hopefully someone at MTL will take
                                          heed of your suggestion?

                                          To take that a step further they should also have regional reps to include
                                          Canada, Germany, Switzerland, Norway and Denmark or at the very least an
                                          order/pre-order form on the MTL website where they could then offer the reps
                                          exclusive access to projected sales in their areas. MTL should also come to
                                          terms with the fact that they aren�t a little company any more. Trust me
                                          there is nothing sitting on the shelves of my LHS for more than a day or two
                                          excepting the standard stock of Micro-Track. If I�m not there by Friday of
                                          the week it�s released, well shame on me.

                                          Right now they are the largest supplier of mass produced Z scale items, this
                                          won�t always be the case. Other manufacturers are bound to see the revenue
                                          potential and squeeze their way in as well. The stunt with the N Scale Pan
                                          Am car won you more than a few disgruntled fans (not the best marketing
                                          approach ever deployed). Also why didn�t we even see this car in Z scale?
                                          Hmmm?

                                          /s/ Another HAVE TO HAVE IT RIGHT NOW, hurting the Hobby, Z Scale enthusiast



                                          >From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@...>
                                          >Reply-To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                          >To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                          >Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: MTL Production Numbers
                                          >Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 12:54:03 -0700
                                          >
                                          >At 9:56 AM +0000 6/3/07, Allan Miller wrote:
                                          > >I'm not sure what the problem is with today's consumer-hobbyists.
                                          > >They seem to want everything that THEY want, and they want it NOW! I
                                          > >see this in the other scales I model, and in some or most cases it is
                                          > >doing more harm to the hobby than good. As I've said so often in
                                          >
                                          >I'd just like to point out that I'm not saying I want everything I
                                          >want for my trains NOW! Quite the opposite, I'm happy to wait, and
                                          >add an item here and there. It helps to keep things affordable.
                                          >
                                          >What I am saying is that when I walk into a train store a couple days
                                          >after a new car, or cars are announced and am informed that I can't
                                          >buy them, because the store is sold out and can't get any more from
                                          >MTL, I consider this to be a problem.
                                          >
                                          >Call me strange, but I for one would rather pay more to support a
                                          >store in my own community, I don't want to have to order online from
                                          >another state. In fact this is one reason that I really like buying
                                          >MTL products, I'm an Oregonian, and by buying MTL I'm helping to
                                          >support an Oregon business.
                                          >
                                          > >If MTL or someone else announces something you want to buy, establish
                                          > >a good, regular relationship with a dealer and get your order placed
                                          > >on their list. Otherwise, take your chances when the item is
                                          > >eventually released and find a dealer who has it available or shop the
                                          > >secondary market.
                                          >
                                          > >My feeling is that MTL, in particular, has done a very good job in
                                          > >giving folks a heads-up about what they are planning, and estimating
                                          > >when it may be available. They try to be realistic in meeting the
                                          >
                                          >OK, I'm curious, am I missing something here? We know that the Army
                                          >train is coming around the bend, and that the GP9's are on the way.
                                          >We actually know what the first GP9 will be. We also know about the
                                          >passenger cars and F8's (or is it E8). I'd like the Army train, but
                                          >will probably pass on it, unless I happen to get lucky and spot it in
                                          >my FLHS and decide on a whim to buy it. The rest I'll be wanting to
                                          >buy if I can get the roads I'm collecting.
                                          >
                                          >All of the above info is very vague though, and it's hard to place
                                          >orders on vague. Can you tell me what the July cars are? This is
                                          >what I'm talking about. How are we to know if any of the July cars
                                          >are anything we want to get? By the time we do find out if they are
                                          >something we want, we run the risk of them being sold out before we
                                          >can get them.
                                          >
                                          > Zane
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >--
                                          >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
                                          >| healyzh@... (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
                                          >| MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector |
                                          >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
                                          >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
                                          >| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
                                          >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |

                                          _________________________________________________________________
                                          Get a preview of Live Earth, the hottest event this summer - only on MSN
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                                        • Don Avila
                                          We can talk to ourselves until we are blue in the face. It is the two sisters at MTL that have to be convinces there is money in Z. ... the
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Jun 3, 2007
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                                            We can talk to ourselves until we are blue in the face.

                                            It is the two sisters at MTL that have to be convinces there is money
                                            in Z.

                                            ...don

                                            --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Mike D." <zscaletrains@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Uwe I have never seen a response so eloquently worded, you are truly
                                            the
                                            > politician!
                                          • Karin Svenson
                                            ... money ... Don, just don t turn into one of those Blue Guys that play with plastic pipe! My 2 bits worth is this... if MTL s leadership doesn t step up to
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Jun 3, 2007
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Don Avila" <d.f.avila@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > We can talk to ourselves until we are blue in the face.
                                              >
                                              > It is the two sisters at MTL that have to be convinces there is
                                              money
                                              > in Z.

                                              Don, just don't turn into one of those "Blue Guys" that play with
                                              plastic pipe!

                                              My 2 bits worth is this... if MTL's leadership doesn't step up to the
                                              plate and if AZL remains too expensive for many then I hope Athearn,
                                              Atlas, Bachmann, or similar companies to put their toes in the
                                              water. Remember, they didn't go into N scale right away and now you
                                              can get some very nice prototypical motive power and rolling stock in
                                              just about all of the major road names, even in Alaska! Granted some
                                              are cheaper than others but they offer affordable high end N scale.
                                              Competition is what gets us more, and better, in every product known
                                              to man. I'm glad old man Henry Ford wasn't the only producer of
                                              automobiles, who knows what few styles and low efficieny cars we'd be
                                              driving now.

                                              I cannot believe that these other companies are not rubbing their
                                              chins as they contemplate the Z scale market. They have to be at
                                              least THINKING about it, no?

                                              Karin
                                            • Don Avila
                                              My worthless guess is that some of these manufacturers will take a GOOD look around Detroit this summer, and then begin to consider spending some tooling
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Jun 3, 2007
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                My worthless guess is that some of these manufacturers will take a
                                                GOOD look around Detroit this summer, and then begin to consider
                                                spending some tooling money. Detroit is only 8 weeks away -- Isn't
                                                that 7+1 or 6+2? It's a big commitment to start off on another scale.
                                                And there is a BIG chicken/egg world out there that has to pay the
                                                bills. I see Loren was helping promote the product in San Jose
                                                yesterday/today] ...don

                                                - - -

                                                > Don, just don't turn into one of those "Blue Guys" that play with
                                                > plastic pipe!
                                                >
                                                > My 2 bits worth is this... if MTL's leadership doesn't step up to the
                                                > plate and if AZL remains too expensive for many then I hope Athearn,
                                                > Atlas, Bachmann, or similar companies to put their toes in the
                                                > water. Remember, they didn't go into N scale right away and now you
                                                > can get some very nice prototypical motive power and rolling stock in
                                                > just about all of the major road names, even in Alaska! Granted some
                                                > are cheaper than others but they offer affordable high end N scale.
                                                > Competition is what gets us more, and better, in every product known
                                                > to man. I'm glad old man Henry Ford wasn't the only producer of
                                                > automobiles, who knows what few styles and low efficieny cars we'd be
                                                > driving now.
                                                >
                                                > I cannot believe that these other companies are not rubbing their
                                                > chins as they contemplate the Z scale market. They have to be at
                                                > least THINKING about it, no?
                                                >
                                                > Karin
                                                >
                                              • Mike D.
                                                Say It Ain t So, Don... MTL is operated by two women? Well that explains that. My dealer called them in inquire about a car for me and something called runner
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Jun 3, 2007
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Say It Ain't So, Don...

                                                  MTL is operated by two women? Well that explains that.

                                                  My dealer called them in inquire about a car for me and something called
                                                  'runner set's #4 and #5 it think it was, the woman who answered the phone
                                                  not knowing she was on speaker phone didn't just get nasty real quick, she
                                                  got ultra-NASTY. Now my dealer (who looks exactly like Wolfman Jack did)
                                                  looked at me with the widest eyes I've ever seen on a Human in all my life.
                                                  No no receptionist in the world would dare to speak to a customer like that
                                                  for fear of her job, so it had to be one of these women.

                                                  I'm not taking anything away from women in business I hope all will
                                                  understand. But from this attitude it's clearly evident nothing will change
                                                  and those personnel at MTL must have their hands full in dealing with that
                                                  kind of mentality. They must of had to walk to school (uphill, both ways).

                                                  Karin, I sure hope your assessment is right, for them to not take advantage
                                                  while they 'Owned' the market and had the chance to establish themselves as
                                                  the leader. To just give the opportunity away, well that just seems to be
                                                  the American way these days. I realize all to well that if it was easy then
                                                  boy scouts and girl scouts would be doing it. Whats going on here is just a
                                                  shame, a plain ole shame.

                                                  /s/ Not Really a GOT TO HAVE IT NOW, disgruntled, Hurting the Hobby, MTL
                                                  fan.


                                                  >From: "Karin Svenson" <karin@...>
                                                  >Reply-To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                                  >To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                                  >Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: MTL Production Numbers
                                                  >Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 23:21:27 -0000
                                                  >
                                                  >--- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Don Avila" <d.f.avila@...> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > We can talk to ourselves until we are blue in the face.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > It is the two sisters at MTL that have to be convinces there is
                                                  >money
                                                  > > in Z.
                                                  >
                                                  >Don, just don't turn into one of those "Blue Guys" that play with
                                                  >plastic pipe!
                                                  >
                                                  >My 2 bits worth is this... if MTL's leadership doesn't step up to the
                                                  >plate and if AZL remains too expensive for many then I hope Athearn,
                                                  >Atlas, Bachmann, or similar companies to put their toes in the
                                                  >water. Remember, they didn't go into N scale right away and now you
                                                  >can get some very nice prototypical motive power and rolling stock in
                                                  >just about all of the major road names, even in Alaska! Granted some
                                                  >are cheaper than others but they offer affordable high end N scale.
                                                  >Competition is what gets us more, and better, in every product known
                                                  >to man. I'm glad old man Henry Ford wasn't the only producer of
                                                  >automobiles, who knows what few styles and low efficieny cars we'd be
                                                  >driving now.
                                                  >
                                                  >I cannot believe that these other companies are not rubbing their
                                                  >chins as they contemplate the Z scale market. They have to be at
                                                  >least THINKING about it, no?
                                                  >
                                                  >Karin
                                                  >

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                                                • Don Avila
                                                  Give Loren a couple of days to get his feet back on the ground and drop him an Email. He s been at a train show with Joe with at least two of the new GP9 s
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Jun 3, 2007
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Give Loren a couple of days to get his feet back on the ground and
                                                    drop him an Email. He's been at a train show with Joe with at least
                                                    two of the new GP9's fully decorated. Check out TRAINBOARD for the
                                                    colors. Loren is in at MTL regularly and can can fill you in on
                                                    details, even the names of who to write to or whatever. I didn't
                                                    think the sisters answered the phones, but who knows. MTL has quite a
                                                    few employees.

                                                    ...don


                                                    > Say It Ain't So, Don...
                                                    >
                                                    > MTL is operated by two women? Well that explains that.
                                                    >
                                                    > My dealer called them in inquire about a car for me and something
                                                    called
                                                    > 'runner set's #4 and #5 it think it was, the woman who answered the
                                                    phone
                                                    > not knowing she was on speaker phone didn't just get nasty real
                                                    quick, she
                                                    > got ultra-NASTY. Now my dealer (who looks exactly like Wolfman Jack
                                                    did)
                                                    > looked at me with the widest eyes I've ever seen on a Human in all
                                                    my life.
                                                    > No no receptionist in the world would dare to speak to a customer
                                                    like that
                                                    > for fear of her job, so it had to be one of these women.
                                                    >
                                                    > I'm not taking anything away from women in business I hope all will
                                                    > understand. But from this attitude it's clearly evident nothing will
                                                    change
                                                    > and those personnel at MTL must have their hands full in dealing
                                                    with that
                                                    > kind of mentality. They must of had to walk to school (uphill, both
                                                    ways).
                                                    >
                                                    > Karin, I sure hope your assessment is right, for them to not take
                                                    advantage
                                                    > while they 'Owned' the market and had the chance to establish
                                                    themselves as
                                                    > the leader. To just give the opportunity away, well that just seems
                                                    to be
                                                    > the American way these days. I realize all to well that if it was
                                                    easy then
                                                    > boy scouts and girl scouts would be doing it. Whats going on here is
                                                    just a
                                                    > shame, a plain ole shame.
                                                  • Joe DAmato
                                                    Boy, I go to San Francisco for a day of train runnin and come back to this!! :o) Hey, I d love to tell you all what s coming in the way of road names, but
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Jun 3, 2007
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      Boy, I go to San Francisco for a day of train runnin' and come back
                                                      to this!! :o)

                                                      Hey, I'd love to tell you all what's coming in the way of road names,
                                                      but that's a lot more complicated than talking about new product
                                                      development. It's also something done by a different part of the
                                                      company and I think there's someting to do with letting dealers know
                                                      what and when and when to let customers know, and what and
                                                      when...oye..my head hurts. We've come a long way in the past 4 years
                                                      and I wouldn't be surprised if we continue to move and change in the
                                                      comming months and years...and as we do I announce what I can.

                                                      Cheers

                                                      Joe



                                                      --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Edward Scullin <sculline@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > Don
                                                      > I think what was meant about giving notice as to what is coming out
                                                      refered to road names Joe D
                                                      > has been great about what he knows is coming, but still kind of
                                                      quiet about specific road names.
                                                      > I think if what was stated here earlier about a 6 month lead time,
                                                      It would make sense if MTL
                                                      > would announce the road names and then see what additional orders
                                                      appear. Granted a lot of
                                                      > dealers aare signed up to take X of what ever MTL produces. If I
                                                      read the post from Aaron
                                                      > correctly dealers can be fairly selective (IE this month I want X
                                                      tank cars, Y box cars etc).
                                                      > Ed Scullin
                                                      >
                                                      > --- Don Avila <d.f.avila@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > > [snip]
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > Okay, this brings up another question, why all the secrecy on
                                                      what is
                                                      > > > coming out?
                                                      > > > Zane
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Ummmmmm,
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Joe has been pretty open with us. We have known about the GP9
                                                      for a
                                                      > > LOOOOONG time. Finished production photos of the the first
                                                      version
                                                      > > are on Trainboard and they are spectacular He told us about the
                                                      > > turnouts and new track more than half a year before they came
                                                      out.
                                                      > > The other day he told us the turnout motors will be available
                                                      > > separately in a few months and of course they are now available
                                                      with
                                                      > > track. Many months before the Digitrax drop in DCC came out Joe
                                                      told
                                                      > > us about it. He has been telling us about the passenger cars
                                                      coming.
                                                      > > He has been telling us about some of the new engines with 6 wheel
                                                      > > trucks.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > I hardly call it secrecy ESPECIALLY where it really truly comes
                                                      out
                                                      > > and is not Vapor-Ware.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > ...don
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      >
                                                    • Alan Cox
                                                      ... So get her name and get her fired. And tell me you ve never had a man do the same...
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Jun 4, 2007
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                                                        > got ultra-NASTY. Now my dealer (who looks exactly like Wolfman Jack did)
                                                        > looked at me with the widest eyes I've ever seen on a Human in all my life.
                                                        > No no receptionist in the world would dare to speak to a customer like that
                                                        > for fear of her job, so it had to be one of these women.

                                                        So get her name and get her fired. And tell me you've never had a man do
                                                        the same...
                                                      • Garth Hamilton
                                                        Guys if you are so sure you can do a better job then go get a job at MTL or better yet make an offer the current owners can not turn down and show us what you
                                                        Message 27 of 28 , Jun 4, 2007
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                                                          Guys if you are so sure you can do a better job then go get a job at
                                                          MTL or better yet make an offer the current owners can not turn down
                                                          and show us what you can do. Otherwise you are a lay preacher
                                                          preaching to the already converted and it a rehash of what we have
                                                          all heard. MTL management is not listening here. Joe is that is a
                                                          truly bright light so don't blow it out.

                                                          Garth Hamilton
                                                          one of the converted
                                                        • Edward Scullin
                                                          Joe We can t really ask for any more than that. BUT Ed Scullin Thanks for filling us in when you can.
                                                          Message 28 of 28 , Jun 4, 2007
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                                                            Joe
                                                            We can't really ask for any more than that. BUT
                                                            Ed Scullin
                                                            Thanks for filling us in when you can.

                                                            --- Joe DAmato <shipsure2003@...> wrote:

                                                            > Boy, I go to San Francisco for a day of train runnin' and come back
                                                            > to this!! :o)
                                                            >
                                                            > Hey, I'd love to tell you all what's coming in the way of road names,
                                                            > but that's a lot more complicated than talking about new product

                                                            ...and as we do I announce what I can.
                                                            >
                                                            > Cheers
                                                            >
                                                            > Joe
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Edward Scullin <sculline@...> wrote:
                                                            > >
                                                            > > Don
                                                            > > I think what was meant about giving notice as to what is coming out
                                                            > refered to road names Joe D
                                                            > > has been great about what he knows is coming, but still kind of
                                                            > quiet about specific road names.
                                                            > > I think if what was stated here earlier about a 6 month lead time,
                                                            > It would make sense if MTL
                                                            > > would announce the road names and then see what additional orders
                                                            > appear. Granted a lot of
                                                            > > dealers aare signed up to take X of what ever MTL produces. If I
                                                            > read the post from Aaron
                                                            > > correctly dealers can be fairly selective (IE this month I want X
                                                            > tank cars, Y box cars etc).
                                                            > > Ed Scullin
                                                            > >
                                                            > > --- Don Avila <d.f.avila@...> wrote:
                                                            > >
                                                            > > > [snip]
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > > Okay, this brings up another question, why all the secrecy on
                                                            > what is
                                                            > > > > coming out?
                                                            > > > > Zane
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > Ummmmmm,
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > Joe has been pretty open with us. We have known about the GP9
                                                            > for a
                                                            > > > LOOOOONG time. Finished production photos of the the first
                                                            > version
                                                            > > > are on Trainboard and they are spectacular He told us about the
                                                            > > > turnouts and new track more than half a year before they came
                                                            > out.
                                                            > > > The other day he told us the turnout motors will be available
                                                            > > > separately in a few months and of course they are now available
                                                            > with
                                                            > > > track. Many months before the Digitrax drop in DCC came out Joe
                                                            > told
                                                            > > > us about it. He has been telling us about the passenger cars
                                                            > coming.
                                                            > > > He has been telling us about some of the new engines with 6 wheel
                                                            > > > trucks.
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > I hardly call it secrecy ESPECIALLY where it really truly comes
                                                            > out
                                                            > > > and is not Vapor-Ware.
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > ...don
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > >
                                                            > >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
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