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Re: [z_scale] Re: marklin 8802 / relco

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  • bjkronen@aol.com
    ... That s an interesting claim I haven t heard before. I d be curious to see the answers. However, my personal concern is blowing up the MARS light and other
    Message 1 of 21 , Jul 4, 2001
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      Dominique:

      > Daniel, I don't think that there is any danger with a short. But, be
      > carefull, I have been told that a Relco receiver could be dangerous,
      > not for human being, but for coreless motors like Faulhaber,
      > encountered on Rogue or FR locomotives.

      That's an interesting claim I haven't heard before. I'd be curious to see
      the answers.

      However, my personal concern is blowing up the MARS light and other constant
      brilliance lighting circuits from Richmond Controls (and other manufacturers)
      that do fantastic things for locos and passenger cars (and USA cabooses,
      too). Most of these integrated circuit devices go "poof" if the voltage
      exceeds 18 volts or so, in less than a microsecond. That's no surprise, and
      I doubt anyone would expect integrated circuits to handle that kind of
      excessive voltage in the first place.

      Emails to these lighting firms resulted in responses of "voids warranty" or
      "you are on your own" or simply no response at all. Mind you, all of these
      RR add-on firms are one person companies without any notable research
      facilities to speak of. But the word on the Relco website that says "ionize"
      scares the heck out of them. Or reports on this list of "visible sparks" are
      just as bothersome. Ten volts just doesn't arc. Period. Hundreds of volts
      does.

      If you've not seen these lighting products, they are just outstanding and can
      go into Z. But I'm not prepared to spend approximately $50usd to buy a
      Relco, only to learn it will destroy $100usd of installed circuits in a
      passenger train and locomotive.

      I own an oscilloscope to see what the voltage and waveform it puts out, but
      not a Relco (or its cousins) to look at. Perhaps someone else who owns both
      can check it out and let us all know. The Relco site doesn't answer emails,
      apparently.

      Regards,
      Bill Kronenberger
      Houston
    • Helmut Paule
      ... From: Greg Elmassian To: Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 4:13 PM Subject: RE: [z_scale] marklin 8802 / relco
      Message 2 of 21 , Jul 4, 2001
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        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Greg Elmassian <greg@...>
        To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 4:13 PM
        Subject: RE: [z_scale] marklin 8802 / relco

        Hi Greg,


        > Helmut,
        > I think you are the man I want to talk to!
        > Could you give us the pro's and con's of the
        > 8802 vs 88021 vd the Aztec?
        > I am really in a quandry...
        > So far the information I have gathered:

        > 8802 - will clean dust and grit from track, does not clean
        > grime or grease, wheels need to be cleaned manually

        That is correct,
        clean the Wheels of the 8802 or 88021 after every run.

        > 88021 - new cleaning car that has eraser block, no idea or
        > opinions gathered (how heavy, does it track well, etc?)

        No ereser block, it is the same as the 8802 but second Edition.
        works exactly as the 8802, needs same cleaning.

        > Aztec - they have a great reputation in many scales, rolling
        > wheel allows low drag, does clean grime and grease, may take
        > several passes, does not clean oxidation or corrosion.

        The Aztec has a rolling Cleaning wheel,
        I need to clean the cleaning wheel after 2 - 3 runs on my Layout,
        it depends also how dirty it is or looks,
        I use Alcohol, then water and soap on the rolling Wheel to clean.

        I changed the Micro Coupler to a Maerklin Coupler
        on one Side of the Car, Actec delivers only with Micro C.

        > Would you please comment with your experience?
        > Thanks

        Any more Questions, just ask...

        "Z" Greetings Helmut

        > (p.s., I would love to quote your opinions on my web site,

        No problem from my end, go ahaed.

        > www.elmassian.com,
        > I will be adding a Z scale section)
        > Regards,
        > Greg

        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Helmut Paule [mailto:hpaule@...]
        > Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 9:27 AM
        > To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [z_scale] marklin 8802 / relco
        >
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: <d.baechtold@...>
        > To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 6:09 AM
        > Subject: [z_scale] marklin 8802 / relco
        >
        > Hi Gang, happy 4st... "BANG"
        >
        > My five cents of running "Z" , four years.
        >
        > I have Relco hooked up to the Track.
        > except on my ICE Track, where I converted the
        > Lights in 4 Cars for better brightness and found
        > the Relco not efficient anymore because of the
        > Lights in the Car's.
        >
        > I use the 8802 or 88021 at least once a Month or
        > if I think (believe) its nesseseary to do so twice.
        > Every Direction twice on my Layout.
        >
        > Then I use the Aztec Track Cleaner Car also
        > about 5 to 6 Times around the Tracks.
        >
        > If I come back from a Show, (usually outdoors)
        > I clean up with Alcohol the Tracks,
        > using a Leather (shammy)
        > or Joergers Handle with Felt (dipped in Alcohol),
        > specially on Tracks with Cathenary!
        >
        > Thats it, "Z" Greetings Helmut
        >
        > "Z" WARNING! HANDLE WITH CARE! Highly addictive in Small DoseZ!
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
      • Greg Elmassian
        Sounds like a double zener diode might be able to protect other devices... I have used these on some reed relays to kill the back emf from my outdoor
        Message 3 of 21 , Jul 4, 2001
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          Sounds like a "double" zener diode might be able
          to protect other devices... I have used these on
          some reed relays to kill the back emf from my outdoor
          sprinkler valve solenoids...

          It also seems that a relco might play heck with
          the electronics of a DCC decoder, i.e. damage...
          have not heard what exactly happens, but I would
          guess that the decoder would try to interpret the
          relco output as data, in the "least" case...

          but I'm off the subject...

          -----Original Message-----
          From: bjkronen@... [mailto:bjkronen@...]
          Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 2:55 PM
          To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [z_scale] Re: marklin 8802 / relco


          Dominique:

          > Daniel, I don't think that there is any danger with a short. But, be
          > carefull, I have been told that a Relco receiver could be dangerous,
          > not for human being, but for coreless motors like Faulhaber,
          > encountered on Rogue or FR locomotives.

          That's an interesting claim I haven't heard before. I'd be curious to see
          the answers.

          However, my personal concern is blowing up the MARS light and other constant
          brilliance lighting circuits from Richmond Controls (and other
          manufacturers)
          that do fantastic things for locos and passenger cars (and USA cabooses,
          too). Most of these integrated circuit devices go "poof" if the voltage
          exceeds 18 volts or so, in less than a microsecond. That's no surprise, and
          I doubt anyone would expect integrated circuits to handle that kind of
          excessive voltage in the first place.

          Emails to these lighting firms resulted in responses of "voids warranty" or
          "you are on your own" or simply no response at all. Mind you, all of these
          RR add-on firms are one person companies without any notable research
          facilities to speak of. But the word on the Relco website that says
          "ionize"
          scares the heck out of them. Or reports on this list of "visible sparks"
          are
          just as bothersome. Ten volts just doesn't arc. Period. Hundreds of volts
          does.

          If you've not seen these lighting products, they are just outstanding and
          can
          go into Z. But I'm not prepared to spend approximately $50usd to buy a
          Relco, only to learn it will destroy $100usd of installed circuits in a
          passenger train and locomotive.

          I own an oscilloscope to see what the voltage and waveform it puts out, but
          not a Relco (or its cousins) to look at. Perhaps someone else who owns both
          can check it out and let us all know. The Relco site doesn't answer emails,
          apparently.

          Regards,
          Bill Kronenberger
          Houston
        • Greg Elmassian
          One last question Helmut... what is the difference between the 8802 and the 88021? (there is an 8802 on ebay I m interested in, but not if the 88021 has more
          Message 4 of 21 , Jul 4, 2001
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            One last question Helmut...

            what is the difference between the 8802 and the 88021?

            (there is an 8802 on ebay I'm interested in, but not
            if the 88021 has more features/is better)

            oops, another question, there is a new marklin
            cleaning car that is coming, I was confused, it seems
            to be 86501
            see: http://www.creativelement.com/z/articles/pictures/86501.jpg

            have you ever seen it? any idea how it works?

            Thanks!

            Greg

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Helmut Paule [mailto:hpaule@...]
            Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 8:16 PM
            To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [z_scale] marklin 8802 / relco



            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Greg Elmassian <greg@...>
            To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 4:13 PM
            Subject: RE: [z_scale] marklin 8802 / relco

            Hi Greg,


            > Helmut,
            > I think you are the man I want to talk to!
            > Could you give us the pro's and con's of the
            > 8802 vs 88021 vd the Aztec?
            > I am really in a quandry...
            > So far the information I have gathered:

            > 8802 - will clean dust and grit from track, does not clean
            > grime or grease, wheels need to be cleaned manually

            That is correct,
            clean the Wheels of the 8802 or 88021 after every run.

            > 88021 - new cleaning car that has eraser block, no idea or
            > opinions gathered (how heavy, does it track well, etc?)

            No ereser block, it is the same as the 8802 but second Edition.
            works exactly as the 8802, needs same cleaning.

            > Aztec - they have a great reputation in many scales, rolling
            > wheel allows low drag, does clean grime and grease, may take
            > several passes, does not clean oxidation or corrosion.

            The Aztec has a rolling Cleaning wheel,
            I need to clean the cleaning wheel after 2 - 3 runs on my Layout,
            it depends also how dirty it is or looks,
            I use Alcohol, then water and soap on the rolling Wheel to clean.

            I changed the Micro Coupler to a Maerklin Coupler
            on one Side of the Car, Actec delivers only with Micro C.

            > Would you please comment with your experience?
            > Thanks

            Any more Questions, just ask...

            "Z" Greetings Helmut

            > (p.s., I would love to quote your opinions on my web site,

            No problem from my end, go ahaed.
          • Bob Byrne
            ... I don t know of any other differences but Marklin usually add a 1 to the part number when it has been upgraded to a 5 pole motor. -- Regards, Bob
            Message 5 of 21 , Jul 5, 2001
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              > One last question Helmut...
              >
              > what is the difference between the 8802 and the 88021?
              >
              > Thanks!
              >
              > Greg

              I don't know of any other differences but Marklin usually add a 1 to the
              part number when it has been upgraded to a 5 pole motor.

              --
              Regards, Bob
            • Helmut Paule
              ... From: Greg Elmassian To: Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 2:19 AM Subject: RE: [z_scale] marklin 8802 / relco
              Message 6 of 21 , Jul 5, 2001
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                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Greg Elmassian <greg@...>
                To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 2:19 AM
                Subject: RE: [z_scale] marklin 8802 / relco

                Hi Greg,


                > One last question Helmut...
                > what is the difference between the 8802 and the 88021?

                I found the only difference in the Number , the 88021 is the
                lastest Production run by Maerklin.
                I have both and see no difference in performance.
                >
                > (there is an 8802 on ebay I'm interested in, but not
                > if the 88021 has more features/is better)
                >
                Depending how old it is (used), is the Hrs displayed on eBay ?
                You may need to replace the cleaning wheels !
                So depending what you pay for it may is worth it.

                > oops, another question, there is a new marklin
                > cleaning car that is coming, I was confused, it seems to be 86501
                > see: http://www.creativelement.com/z/articles/pictures/86501.jpg
                > have you ever seen it? any idea how it works?

                This is the Joerger cleaning Car made by Maerklin,
                with a Felt attached to clean the Tracks. seen only Pictures!

                I got the HUG cleaning Car (an German Club Car), tried it,
                but was not impressed.

                The Aztec Car in my Opinion is still the better Choice,
                but you need to install an Maerklin Coubler on the Car,
                if you run only Maerklin rolling Stock.

                As soon the Joerger Car is available I will get one and test it.

                "Z" Greetings Helmut

                > Thanks!
                > Greg
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Helmut Paule [mailto:hpaule@...]
                > Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 8:16 PM
                > To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [z_scale] marklin 8802 / relco
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: Greg Elmassian <greg@...>
                > To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 4:13 PM
                > Subject: RE: [z_scale] marklin 8802 / relco
                >
                > Hi Greg,
                > > Helmut,
                > > I think you are the man I want to talk to!
                > > Could you give us the pro's and con's of the
                > > 8802 vs 88021 vd the Aztec?
                > > I am really in a quandry...
                > > So far the information I have gathered:
                >
                > > 8802 - will clean dust and grit from track, does not clean
                > > grime or grease, wheels need to be cleaned manually
                >
                > That is correct,
                > clean the Wheels of the 8802 or 88021 after every run.
                >
                > > 88021 - new cleaning car that has eraser block, no idea or
                > > opinions gathered (how heavy, does it track well, etc?)
                >
                > No ereser block, it is the same as the 8802 but second Edition.
                > works exactly as the 8802, needs same cleaning.
                >
                > > Aztec - they have a great reputation in many scales, rolling
                > > wheel allows low drag, does clean grime and grease, may take
                > > several passes, does not clean oxidation or corrosion.
                >
                > The Aztec has a rolling Cleaning wheel,
                > I need to clean the cleaning wheel after 2 - 3 runs on my Layout,
                > it depends also how dirty it is or looks,
                > I use Alcohol, then water and soap on the rolling Wheel to clean.
                >
                > I changed the Micro Coupler to a Maerklin Coupler
                > on one Side of the Car, Actec delivers only with Micro C.
                >
                > > Would you please comment with your experience?
                > > Thanks
                >
                > Any more Questions, just ask...
                >
                > "Z" Greetings Helmut
                >
                > > (p.s., I would love to quote your opinions on my web site,
                >
                > No problem from my end, go ahaed.
                >
                >
                > "Z" WARNING! HANDLE WITH CARE! Highly addictive in Small DoseZ!
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
              • Helmut Paule
                ... From: Greg Elmassian To: Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 2:15 AM Subject: RE: [z_scale] Re: marklin 8802 /
                Message 7 of 21 , Jul 5, 2001
                • 0 Attachment
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Greg Elmassian <greg@...>
                  To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 2:15 AM
                  Subject: RE: [z_scale] Re: marklin 8802 / relco

                  Hi Greg,

                  I run my 4 Passenger Cars with Richmond Control
                  Light Boards, (also installed in my ICE 8871 4 Car's),
                  also the LED (front and rear) on the Loc, without any Trouble,
                  for the last 2 1/2 Years.

                  The Relco does not see a Break in Current when Light Boards
                  installen in Cars.
                  As Bill K. mentioned, I used a Oscilloscop to check any spik's, none
                  found.
                  Only If a Loc is on the Track's but no Cars with Lights,
                  LED's or others... then the Relco is activated!

                  "Z" Greetings Helmut

                  PS, are you visiting St.Louis ?


                  > Sounds like a "double" zener diode might be able
                  > to protect other devices... I have used these on
                  > some reed relays to kill the back emf from my outdoor
                  > sprinkler valve solenoids...
                  >
                  > It also seems that a relco might play heck with
                  > the electronics of a DCC decoder, i.e. damage...
                  > have not heard what exactly happens, but I would
                  > guess that the decoder would try to interpret the
                  > relco output as data, in the "least" case...
                  >
                  > but I'm off the subject...
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: bjkronen@... [mailto:bjkronen@...]
                  > Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 2:55 PM
                  > To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [z_scale] Re: marklin 8802 / relco
                  >
                  >
                  > Dominique:
                  >
                  > > Daniel, I don't think that there is any danger with a short. But, be
                  > > carefull, I have been told that a Relco receiver could be dangerous,
                  > > not for human being, but for coreless motors like Faulhaber,
                  > > encountered on Rogue or FR locomotives.
                  >
                  > That's an interesting claim I haven't heard before. I'd be curious to see
                  > the answers.
                  >
                  > However, my personal concern is blowing up the MARS light and other
                  constant
                  > brilliance lighting circuits from Richmond Controls (and other
                  > manufacturers)
                  > that do fantastic things for locos and passenger cars (and USA cabooses,
                  > too). Most of these integrated circuit devices go "poof" if the voltage
                  > exceeds 18 volts or so, in less than a microsecond. That's no surprise,
                  and
                  > I doubt anyone would expect integrated circuits to handle that kind of
                  > excessive voltage in the first place.
                  >
                  > Emails to these lighting firms resulted in responses of "voids warranty"
                  or
                  > "you are on your own" or simply no response at all. Mind you, all of
                  these
                  > RR add-on firms are one person companies without any notable research
                  > facilities to speak of. But the word on the Relco website that says
                  > "ionize"
                  > scares the heck out of them. Or reports on this list of "visible sparks"
                  > are
                  > just as bothersome. Ten volts just doesn't arc. Period. Hundreds of
                  volts
                  > does.
                  >
                  > If you've not seen these lighting products, they are just outstanding and
                  > can
                  > go into Z. But I'm not prepared to spend approximately $50usd to buy a
                  > Relco, only to learn it will destroy $100usd of installed circuits in a
                  > passenger train and locomotive.
                  >
                  > I own an oscilloscope to see what the voltage and waveform it puts out,
                  but
                  > not a Relco (or its cousins) to look at. Perhaps someone else who owns
                  both
                  > can check it out and let us all know. The Relco site doesn't answer
                  emails,
                  > apparently.
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  > Bill Kronenberger
                  > Houston
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > "Z" WARNING! HANDLE WITH CARE! Highly addictive in Small DoseZ!
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                • bjkronen@aol.com
                  ... Does that mean if I run a freight with a MARS light (or other lighting kit) in a diesel loco, it might get zapped by the Relco? Or a passenger train
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jul 5, 2001
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                    Helmut:

                    > Only If a Loc is on the Track's but no Cars with Lights,
                    > LED's or others... then the Relco is activated!

                    Does that mean if I run a freight with a MARS light (or other lighting kit)
                    in a diesel loco, it might get zapped by the Relco? Or a passenger train
                    without interior lights?

                    Someone must know what these things put out to the track. Guess I'll have to
                    buy one and toss it if looks like it will kill lighting kits. <frown>

                    Regards,
                    Bill Kronenberger
                    Houston
                  • Helmut Paule
                    ... From: To: Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 12:52 AM Subject: Re: [z_scale] Re: marklin 8802 / relco Hallo Bill, ...
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jul 6, 2001
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                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: <bjkronen@...>
                      To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 12:52 AM
                      Subject: Re: [z_scale] Re: marklin 8802 / relco

                      Hallo Bill,

                      > > Only If a Loc is on the Track's but no Cars with Lights,
                      > > LED's or others... then the Relco is activated!

                      I should have written : If there are no Cars with Lights and the Loc
                      looses Power from the Tracks the Relco fieres up !

                      > Does that mean if I run a freight with a MARS light (or other lighting
                      kit)
                      > in a diesel loco, it might get zapped by the Relco? Or a passenger train
                      > without interior lights?

                      No, the Light Circuit on any Car is still powerd from the Tracks, the Relco
                      sees no interuption in Current and dass not fieres up, even the Loc looses
                      Contact to the Tracks.

                      A Passenger Car without interior Lights is a open Circuit on the Tracks...

                      > Guess I'll have to buy one and toss it if looks like it will kill lighting
                      kits. <frown>

                      Bill I bring you one to St.Louis, for you to put it under Test!
                      saves me shipping it to You...

                      I found the Frequency is around 10 khz, the Voltage Spikes around 1000V
                      and the repeating Pulses around 60 Hz.
                      But no real Power behind it,

                      A 1000 picofarad Capacitor over the 2 Rails, shortens the Spike out...
                      and make it useless.

                      If the Relco would fiere for whatever Reason, the 1500 pf Capacitor on
                      the Motor Armature will shorten the Spike, and no harm done to
                      any Lights (LED) in the Loc's. I changed all my Lights in the Loc's
                      to LED's, because Marklins 8 Volt Bulb does not light's up with 3-4 Volts
                      Running Power from the Throttle!

                      I use the Relco on all my 3 Main Tracks

                      On the ICE Track Line, if I run the ICE,
                      I disconnect the Relco because the Richmond Control-Lights,
                      do not allowe the Relco to fiere at all !
                      I have it installed just in case I run a other Train on this Tracks.

                      When I started 4 Years ago, and went to the H&R show's
                      outside under a Tent, I had lots of trouble, Loc's stalling.
                      I tried almost everything, so today, you have read my Routine
                      keeping my Tracks clean and Trains running...

                      See you in St.Louis,
                      "Z" Greetings Helmut
                    • bjkronen@aol.com
                      ... You are wonderful. Thanks for the answers. I knew they were out there somewhere in this list of over 400 folks. Regards, Bill Kronenberger Houston
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jul 6, 2001
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                        Helmut:

                        > I found the Frequency is around 10 khz, the Voltage Spikes around 1000V
                        > and the repeating Pulses around 60 Hz.
                        > But no real Power behind it,
                        >
                        > A 1000 picofarad Capacitor over the 2 Rails, shortens the Spike out...
                        > and make it useless.

                        You are wonderful. Thanks for the answers. I knew they were out there
                        somewhere in this list of over 400 folks.

                        Regards,
                        Bill Kronenberger
                        Houston
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