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Re: Societies without Rules have a tendency to Collapse!

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  • feyerhc
    Hi all, I believe this is my first post to this group. I have enjoy reading most of the posts for the last several months. I find them informative,
    Message 1 of 21 , Jan 2, 2007
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      Hi all,

      I believe this is my first post to this group. I have enjoy reading
      most of the posts for the last several months. I find them
      informative, sensitive, and at times humorous.

      However, what is the point of this subject? MOTM is informative and
      inspirational. I thought this was a friendly, considerate group that
      wanted to share information, answer questions, etc. Now it looks
      like it has become a bickering group. If this continues, I will be
      dropping out of this group. The world is full of bickering and I
      thought this forum was for relaxation and getting away from the
      everyday rigors.

      Personally, I don't care if a submitted photo is of a highly
      detailed, scratchbuilt turntable, or a photo of a purchased, fully
      built model that is placed in a particular scene in a unigue way.
      All these submitted photos are inspiring.

      Whether a submitted model was built by the individual submitting or
      was done by someone else is immaterial. If this group is really a
      group for sharing ideas and having fun, that is all that is
      important. If MOTM has a whole bunch of rules and restrictions, then
      the purpose of sharing is gone and we have brought the rigors of life
      to this forum.

      Lets stay with the fun side and quit worrying about the competive
      aspect.

      The Z world is for having fun, enjoyment, and sharing.

      Carl in Nebraska


      --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Jürg Rüedi <juerg.rueedi@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Tim
      >
      > I disagree with some of your "rules". For me that sounds more like
      a
      > scratchbuild contest and not a Model of the month contest and most
      of
      > the Group Members (me too) doesen't have the skills to build a
      > masterpiece. If the rules will change in the way you suggested, I
      > think there will be every month the same few talented Guys in the
      > contest. :-)
      >
      > Sincerley
      > Jürg
      >
      > http://www.rosetown.ch
      >
      > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "sgt_tim7" <sgt_tim1@> wrote:
      > >
      > > I want to post a message this groups Photo of the month contest.
      > > Was a good many months ago, perhaps 24 or so, that I was dis-
      > > qualified from entering any of my personalized models in this
      > groups
      > > Model of the Month contest for I manufactured Z scale goods for
      > > others. This was my disqualification. At this time, the contest
      > > was voted on by one person and not the mass majority of this
      > group.
      > > Things have since changed. Everyone gets to vote which Model is
      > the
      > > Best of the Best.
      > >
      > > Way back when, many month ago, the definition of a model was
      > > ANYTHING including a trailer that is used to haul modules from
      show
      > > to show. As I look up the definition of a model in a dictionary,
      > > this definitely was a dis-qualification. But, as I said, the
      > > contest was a one vote deal.
      > >
      > > In the past few months, this contest of the Best of the Best
      Models
      > > in Z scale has come anew! Since it's make over, a few questions
      > > have arised about what photos are acceptable. If any of you
      recall
      > > the Z Central Stations first Z Photo contest, it was wild and
      > > crazy. Had no rules except it has to be Z scale. Since that
      first
      > > contest they have installed a few rules for the contest and have
      > > added a Theme.
      > >
      > > Well, I am here to suggest a few rules for the Model of the Month
      > > contest on this Z_Scale group. As you know, this group offers
      > > nothing for the winner except the recognition diserved by posting
      > > that winning photo on this groups Home Page.
      > >
      > > I have consolidated a few basic, simple rules that I consider
      > needed
      > > for such a contest as this. Simple rules will eliminate problems
      > > that may arise in the future about certain models. Here are my
      > > suggestions!
      > > ------------------------------------------------------------
      > >
      > > Rules for Model of the Month!
      > >
      > > --This is a "MODEL" of the month Contest-- (Not a Photo Contest)
      > >
      > > The Dictionary describes a Model as; "a small object, usually
      built
      > > to scale, that represents in detail another, often larger object."
      > >
      > >
      > > A model, for this contest, can be a locomotive, rollingstock,
      > > building, vehicle, people, or any other object represented in
      1:220
      > > (Z) scale. This excludes modules and layouts in their entirety.
      > > Modules and layouts are concidered a conglomerate (collection)
      > > of "Models" to create a larger scene.
      > >
      > >
      > > Simple Rules for Entry:
      > >
      > > * Only one photo entry, per person, per month!
      > >
      > > * Photo can be of any Z scale object, as listed above that is
      1:220
      > > (Z) Scale.
      > >
      > > * Person submitting the photo "MUST" be the "author/creator" of
      the
      > > Z scale object that is displayed in the photo. Simply put, it
      must
      > > be something YOU have created.
      > >
      > > * Models of RTR Z scale products can not be entered as a model
      > > unless they have been personally modifed, by YOU, to represent a
      > > more accurate model.
      > >
      > > * A model can be placed in a scene, but must be the primary
      object
      > > in the photo. The Scene is not the model.
      > >
      > > Helpful Hints: A photo of a model that is surrounded by a nice
      > > scene is more likely to be chosen as a winner than a stand alone
      > > model with no scenery around it. Example; A photo of a
      > scratchbuilt
      > > model of a tractor and ploy will be more
      > > appealing if it were placed in a field ploying a scene rather
      than
      > > by itself with no scenery.
      > >
      > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
      > >
      > > All comments and suggestions welcomed.
      > >
      > > Hobo Tim
      > >
      >
    • Jürg Rüedi
      Hello Karin Thank you for your kind words. My entries to the Contest is a way to say thanks to John Cubbin and Lionel Gazeaus for the incredible work they did
      Message 2 of 21 , Jan 2, 2007
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        Hello Karin

        Thank you for your kind words. My entries to the Contest is a way to
        say thanks to John Cubbin and Lionel Gazeaus for the incredible work
        they did for me and to show their work to the public. I'm like a
        Gallery owner who show's the work from talented "Artists" as in the
        real world.
        As Reynard mentioned bevor, photo of the month would be the better
        name. :-)
        Last but not least, we had some photo contests on zcentralstation in
        the last few month. The June contest contained 31 pictures, the
        August contest 25 (from 7 people) the October contest 12 pictures
        (from 6 people) the December contest 13 pictures (from 6 people). As
        more rules being added as less pictures you will see in the future.

        just my 2 Cents

        Jürg

        http://www.rosetown.ch


        --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Karin Svenson" <karin@...> wrote:
        >
        > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "sgt_tim7" <sgt_tim1@> wrote:
        >
        > > p.s. I agree that a description of the model is needed upon
        > entry.
        > > Great Suggestion!
        >
        > Hi guys,
        > This is a very important topic and should be heeded. Personally I
        > would prefer that the term "guidelines" be used when determining
        > rules for a civilized group such as this one. I would tend to
        think
        > that it would help in keeping us pulling together instead of using
        a
        > term that is more divisive like the word "rules" is.
        >
        > Guidelines are needed for the MOTM contest.
        >
        > Juerg's Rosetown depot, if it wins, should be credited a win to
        > Lionel. If his bridge and river entry wins it should be credited as
        > John Cubbin's win. I think the single most important guideline is
        > that the entry be made by the entrant or that the entrant give all
        > credit, including the win, to the maker of the model.
        >
        > I'm so glad you added those Juerg, no disrespect intended. I just
        > think the modeler needs to be the real winner.
        >
        > Sure look forward to when the day comes when I can add my feeble
        > attempt of an entry.
        >
        > Thanks for allowing me to communicate my thoughts...
        >
        > Karin
        >
      • Rick Saviano
        Allow me to add my perspective on contests: As a member of a local NMRA division, we hold monthly contests, each month having a different theme. At the
        Message 3 of 21 , Jan 2, 2007
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          Allow me to add my perspective on contests:

          As a member of a local NMRA division, we hold monthly contests, each
          month having a different theme. At the meetings, the members vote on
          the "best" model displayed, using their own criteria. Often, a more
          remedial model wins because a certain level of competency, or perceived
          improvement, or innovation is displayed in the model. I say perceived
          because these models are "anonymously" submitted, but, over the years,
          we have come to recognize some of the members' work. In any case, as
          has been pointed out in Hobo Tim's email, if only one vote is cast, it
          is only that judge's voice that is heard. The rest is moot, because the
          rest of us were mute (pardon the pun). Have we achieved the level of
          excellence where only a few will win? I think not - there is a lot of
          room for improvement for us all, and innovation is not limited to only
          the master model builders. I would personally vote for someone with an
          interesting concept that may not have been executed perfectly over a
          Z-scale rivet counter that just added 6 more rivets to perfect the
          model. The glory should go to the person who originally brought the
          idea to the group. After all, even though the rivet counter will
          incorporate the innovation the next chance he or she gets, it wouldn't
          exist without the innovator.

          As far as Uwe's comment about the models not being his, I would
          welcome all entrants. The only way to increase the hobby is to
          encourage others outside our circle to become involved. Just because a
          wife or child isn't a member (yet) of our group, we shouldn't exclude
          them. Part of the challenge within the NMRA is figuring out how to
          increase our membership.


          -Rick



          Uwe Liermann wrote:
          > ......
          >
          > I didn't build them, but they don't use the computer to communicate by
          > themself. But of course I show them everything that they want to see,
          > and most of the time some things more. In a way you can say that we
          > delegated this part of the hobby to me. Besides, since my son is in
          > third grade, he just started learning English last summer...
          >
          >
        • Don Avila
          Well it is a friendly group. Generally no barbs nor poor language. Also, SOME FOLKS have asked that the messages be clipped since they are still on dial-up. I
          Message 4 of 21 , Jan 2, 2007
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            Well it is a friendly group. Generally no barbs nor poor language.
            Also, SOME FOLKS have asked that the messages be clipped since they
            are still on dial-up. I agree with you that we need SOMETHING in the
            way of photos. We have an area where anyone can upload any train
            photo, but that has not been entered as much as it used to with the
            ease of uploading photos and text in both ZCENTRAL and TRAINBOARD. I
            think what is going on here, is that a coversheet for the month is
            trying to be established with some restrictions, although I tend to
            agree with your view and others that the PHOTO of Z is what really counts.

            P.S. I think you have been posting a lot more than this one. I find
            entries back in 2004 when you were age 65.

            --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "feyerhc" <clfeyerherm@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Hi all,
            >
            > I believe this is my first post to this group. I have enjoy reading
            > most of the posts for the last several months. I find them
            > informative, sensitive, and at times humorous.
            >
            > However, what is the point of this subject? MOTM is informative and
            > inspirational. I thought this was a friendly, considerate group
            that [snip]
          • Reynard Wellman
            Hello Karin, As is clearly written in Jürg s descriptions, he has identified the builders by name. So what s the issue? And yes, the photo A Sunny Day is of
            Message 5 of 21 , Jan 2, 2007
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              Hello Karin,
              As is clearly written in Jürg's descriptions, he has identified
              the builders by name. So what's the issue? And yes, the photo
              "A Sunny Day" is of a diorama and it is a fantastic
              photograph. If dioramas and great photography are seen
              as some kind of "trick", that dioramas should be disallowed from
              entering, what's the point of having this contest? At least
              that is the confusing message I am getting from this discussion.

              I thought that the rule that the photo must be of Z scale
              modeling is pretty good, beyond that, more rules might
              make us all shy of submitting anything.

              I did submit a very badly photographed Bartizan Tower
              added to one of Bob Olson's "Quickit" structures. So I guess Bob
              Olson should also have been mentioned since he originally
              designed the 4 story building. I am now trying
              to figure out how to withdraw it, since the whole issue has
              become very muddy.

              Best regardZ,
              Reynard
              On Jan 1, 2007, at 11:47 PM, Karin Svenson wrote:

              > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "sgt_tim7" <sgt_tim1@...> wrote:
              >
              > > p.s. I agree that a description of the model is needed upon
              > entry.
              > > Great Suggestion!
              >
              > Hi guys,
              > This is a very important topic and should be heeded. Personally I
              > would prefer that the term "guidelines" be used when determining
              > rules for a civilized group such as this one. I would tend to think
              > that it would help in keeping us pulling together instead of using a
              > term that is more divisive like the word "rules" is.
              >
              > Guidelines are needed for the MOTM contest.
              >
              > Juerg's Rosetown depot, if it wins, should be credited a win to
              > Lionel. If his bridge and river entry wins it should be credited as
              > John Cubbin's win. I think the single most important guideline is
              > that the entry be made by the entrant or that the entrant give all
              > credit, including the win, to the maker of the model.
              >
              > I'm so glad you added those Juerg, no disrespect intended. I just
              > think the modeler needs to be the real winner.
              >
              > Sure look forward to when the day comes when I can add my feeble
              > attempt of an entry.
              >
              > Thanks for allowing me to communicate my thoughts...
              >
              > Karin
              >
              >
              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Allan Borg
              Hi all I m with the new guy. I personally do not see any distinction between a single model and creation of a diorama or a scene from a layout. I also don t
              Message 6 of 21 , Jan 2, 2007
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                Hi all
                I'm with the new guy. I personally do not see any distinction between
                a single model and creation of a diorama or a scene from a layout. I
                also don't care if the modelling effort is a creation of the author
                or photographer as long as the credit is so given. So what if the
                model was made by a spouse, a friend or some other family member. If
                it a Z scale creation it deserves a viewing. It's not like we are
                competing for points, trophys or some other rewards. I do believe
                that any modelling product created for commercial or contractual
                endeavor should be excluded, but that is all.
                Allan Borg
                --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "feyerhc" <clfeyerherm@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > Hi all,
                >
                > I believe this is my first post to this group. I have enjoy
                reading
                > most of the posts for the last several months. I find them
                > informative, sensitive, and at times humorous.
                >
                > However, what is the point of this subject? MOTM is informative
                and
                > inspirational. I thought this was a friendly, considerate group
                that
                > wanted to share information, answer questions, etc. Now it looks
                > like it has become a bickering group. If this continues, I will be
                > dropping out of this group. The world is full of bickering and I
                > thought this forum was for relaxation and getting away from the
                > everyday rigors.
                >
                > Personally, I don't care if a submitted photo is of a highly
                > detailed, scratchbuilt turntable, or a photo of a purchased, fully
                > built model that is placed in a particular scene in a unigue way.
                > All these submitted photos are inspiring.
                >
                > Whether a submitted model was built by the individual submitting or
                > was done by someone else is immaterial. If this group is really a
                > group for sharing ideas and having fun, that is all that is
                > important. If MOTM has a whole bunch of rules and restrictions,
                then
                > the purpose of sharing is gone and we have brought the rigors of
                life
                > to this forum.
                >
                > Lets stay with the fun side and quit worrying about the competive
                > aspect.
                >
                > The Z world is for having fun, enjoyment, and sharing.
                >
                > Carl in Nebraska
              • Michael Hilliard
                Hello, First off I d, like to thank Glen for all his efforts. I thought Model Of The Month (MOTM) was pretty self explanatory, maybe not. I d like to think our
                Message 7 of 21 , Jan 4, 2007
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                  Hello,

                  First off I'd, like to thank Glen for all his efforts. I thought Model Of The Month (MOTM) was pretty self explanatory, maybe not. I'd like to think our members are intelligent enough to know what a model is without having to give a dictionary definition.

                  The only controversy I've read is about entering a photo of someone Else's work. Personally, I don't have a problem with this. Weather it be for a friend or family member, or something you commissioned someone else to build for you, as long as credit is given to the actual modeler. However, if someone submits a entry that someone else built and they said they built it themselves, this would be outright fraud. I would be thrilled if someone entered something I made for them, especially if it wins. It say's how satisfied they are with my work that they wanted to share it with everyone.

                  To quote Hobo Tim (Timothy Beuhring):

                  "I promise you this, I will not submit any models I have built to this
                  contest ever again! Nor will I allow anyone to submit any models I
                  have built for them as the model of the month. It is not fair!"

                  Having said that Tim, why did you even bring this topic up? Unless you get it in writing beforehand, someone has paid you to do a job and they have "bought" the right to do whatever they want with their commissioned work. I do "not" consider you or any one man/woman operation to be a manufacturer. Legally, you make "handmade" items, not manufactured, even if some steps may be considered manufactured, there is far more handmade steps.

                  Anyway, I'd like to suggest some revised rules based on your original suggestions:

                  Rules for Model of the Month:

                  -This is a Model Of The Month Contest-- (not a photo contest)

                  A model, for this contest, can be a locomotive, rollingstock,
                  building, vehicle, people, or any other object represented in 1:220
                  (Z) scale. This excludes modules and layouts in their entirety.
                  Modules and layouts are considered a conglomerate (collection)
                  of "Models" to create a larger scene.

                  Simple Rules for Entry:

                  * Only one photo entry, per person, per month.

                  * Photo can be of any Z scale object, as listed above that is 1:220
                  (Z) Scale.

                  * Person submitting the photo should be the "author/creator" of the
                  Z scale object that is displayed in the photo. If submitting a photo for someone else, the "author/creators" name must be included. If the entry wins, the author/creator is the winner, not the person that submitted the entry.

                  * Models of RTR Z scale products can not be entered as a model
                  unless they have been personally modified, by you, to represent a
                  more accurate model.

                  * A model can be placed in a scene, but must be the primary object
                  in the photo. The Scene is not the model.

                  Helpful Hints: A photo of a model that is surrounded by a nice
                  scene is more likely to be chosen as a winner than a stand alone
                  model with no scenery around it. Example; A photo of a scratchbuilt
                  model of a tractor and ploy will be more
                  appealing if it were placed in a field ploying a scene rather than
                  by itself with no scenery.

                  *Any disputes/problems that arise in respect to MOTM, will be resolved at the sole discretion of the moderators of Z_Scale. As a reminder, here are the current moderators of Z_Scale:

                  Rob Kluz, Dublin, OH
                  Glen Chenier, Allen, TX
                  Ted Lamar, San Mateo, CA
                  Greg Elmassian, San Diego, CA
                  Michael Hilliard, Wilton, CT

                  If the current method of choosing a MOTM doesn't work out for whatever reason, I don't know why it wouldn't, but this has yet to be settled, I'd suggest the 5 moderators of Z_Scale be the judges to select the MOTM. Do you "trust" the current moderators to be fair if this happened? Just in case this does happen, I'd suggest one more rule:

                  *Moderators of Z_Scale can not enter the MOTM contest, nor may anyone submit entries on their behalf.

                  Now that I got that out of my system, time to prepare for our Tri-State Z Scalers (NY, NJ, & CT) this Sat. Your feedback is welcome and appreciated. All Z BeZt,

                  Michael Hilliard
                  Wilton, CT USA





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