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Re: [Z_Scale] Re: Societies without Rules have a tendency to Collapse!

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  • Loren Snyder
    Tim, I hasten to mention that the best looking model, be it scratch built, kit bashed, or other, must be photographed carefully and professionally in order to
    Message 1 of 21 , Jan 1, 2007
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      Tim,
      I hasten to mention that the best looking model, be it scratch built, kit
      bashed, or other, must be photographed carefully and professionally in order
      to bring out its fine points. Lousy camera work can ruin a great product,
      so I say that a model builder needs to show off his work in the best light
      possible, and that light just may be the flash of a great camera with
      additional lighting, etc.

      Ask Lionell who scratch builds most if not all his items, he takes great
      pains, (though not expensively I might add) to take good quality photos.
      With out such, no one would ever really get a true understanding of his
      modeling skills and professionalism.

      I'll even go as far as to say that good photography is vital and mandatory
      in order for any object to win a prize in any sort of contest.

      Just some thoughts,
      Loren

      -------Original Message-------

      From: sgt_tim7
      Date: 1/1/2007 7:40:25 PM
      To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: Societies without Rules have a tendency to Collapse!

      <snip>

      <This is a model contest, not a photo contest. Allow the talent that
      <is out there to submit their creations.

      Hobo Tim


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Glen Chenier
      ... Well, just to keep all the facts straight, Tim initially did just that. The MOTM has been running long enough now that resulting submission guidelines can
      Message 2 of 21 , Jan 1, 2007
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        --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Jim O'Connell" <jimo.crcmnvgtr@...>
        wrote:
        >... Possibly you should make your thoughts known to
        > Glen privately....

        Well, just to keep all the facts straight, Tim initially did just
        that. The MOTM has been running long enough now that resulting
        submission guidelines can be suggested, discussed and debated, and
        eventually voted on once suggestions are compiled and all have an
        input as to what the Guidelines poll choices should consist of. I
        asked Tim to start the ball rolling by presenting his concerns and
        ideas to the list membership, which he has done very effectively.
        All suggestions will be subject to membership vote as to whether or
        not they will apply in future MOTM.

        This gathering of suggestions and current discussion is for future
        submissions and do not apply to the Jan07 MOTM. I will set up the
        Jan07 MOTM poll in a couple days.

        Now I'm taking off the 'Moderator Hat' and as a member am going to
        throw in my own suggestions for discussion, a couple of which have
        already been mentioned from other members. The main thing to keep in
        mind is that our MOTM is intended as an informal fun activity, and
        whatever rules/guides evolve should be kept to a minimum.


        1. Rules or Guides? If a submission does not conform to the eventual
        rules should it be disqualified or allowed to stand with or without
        edited corrections? If the entry blatently does not conform it will
        get discussed in posts and then not receive many votes anyway. The
        voting process itself will eliminate entries that the membership does
        not condone.

        2. If the featured model or other supporting inclusions were built or
        detailed as a one-of-a-kind by someone other than the photo
        submitter, the names of the other artists should be credited in the
        photo description. Due to restrictions on length of the description
        that can be provided with the photo, if more text is needed one could
        make a fully descriptive post.

        3. Specify exactly what is the model in the photo being submitted.
        In many scenes auxilliary items are included to set off the model
        itself. If the model is a spectacular work of either natural
        scenery, a turntable, a bridge,etc, and includes unmodified RTR items
        then the description can focus on the model, not the auxilliary items.


        If items 2 and 3 are acceptable, these should allow virtually any
        subject matter in the entries as long as full disclosure and credits
        are given.

        Item 1 needs more discussion.
      • Karin Svenson
        ... entry. ... Hi guys, This is a very important topic and should be heeded. Personally I would prefer that the term guidelines be used when determining
        Message 3 of 21 , Jan 1, 2007
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          --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "sgt_tim7" <sgt_tim1@...> wrote:

          > p.s. I agree that a description of the model is needed upon
          entry.
          > Great Suggestion!

          Hi guys,
          This is a very important topic and should be heeded. Personally I
          would prefer that the term "guidelines" be used when determining
          rules for a civilized group such as this one. I would tend to think
          that it would help in keeping us pulling together instead of using a
          term that is more divisive like the word "rules" is.

          Guidelines are needed for the MOTM contest.

          Juerg's Rosetown depot, if it wins, should be credited a win to
          Lionel. If his bridge and river entry wins it should be credited as
          John Cubbin's win. I think the single most important guideline is
          that the entry be made by the entrant or that the entrant give all
          credit, including the win, to the maker of the model.

          I'm so glad you added those Juerg, no disrespect intended. I just
          think the modeler needs to be the real winner.

          Sure look forward to when the day comes when I can add my feeble
          attempt of an entry.

          Thanks for allowing me to communicate my thoughts...

          Karin
        • feyerhc
          Hi all, I believe this is my first post to this group. I have enjoy reading most of the posts for the last several months. I find them informative,
          Message 4 of 21 , Jan 2, 2007
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            Hi all,

            I believe this is my first post to this group. I have enjoy reading
            most of the posts for the last several months. I find them
            informative, sensitive, and at times humorous.

            However, what is the point of this subject? MOTM is informative and
            inspirational. I thought this was a friendly, considerate group that
            wanted to share information, answer questions, etc. Now it looks
            like it has become a bickering group. If this continues, I will be
            dropping out of this group. The world is full of bickering and I
            thought this forum was for relaxation and getting away from the
            everyday rigors.

            Personally, I don't care if a submitted photo is of a highly
            detailed, scratchbuilt turntable, or a photo of a purchased, fully
            built model that is placed in a particular scene in a unigue way.
            All these submitted photos are inspiring.

            Whether a submitted model was built by the individual submitting or
            was done by someone else is immaterial. If this group is really a
            group for sharing ideas and having fun, that is all that is
            important. If MOTM has a whole bunch of rules and restrictions, then
            the purpose of sharing is gone and we have brought the rigors of life
            to this forum.

            Lets stay with the fun side and quit worrying about the competive
            aspect.

            The Z world is for having fun, enjoyment, and sharing.

            Carl in Nebraska


            --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Jürg Rüedi <juerg.rueedi@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Tim
            >
            > I disagree with some of your "rules". For me that sounds more like
            a
            > scratchbuild contest and not a Model of the month contest and most
            of
            > the Group Members (me too) doesen't have the skills to build a
            > masterpiece. If the rules will change in the way you suggested, I
            > think there will be every month the same few talented Guys in the
            > contest. :-)
            >
            > Sincerley
            > Jürg
            >
            > http://www.rosetown.ch
            >
            > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "sgt_tim7" <sgt_tim1@> wrote:
            > >
            > > I want to post a message this groups Photo of the month contest.
            > > Was a good many months ago, perhaps 24 or so, that I was dis-
            > > qualified from entering any of my personalized models in this
            > groups
            > > Model of the Month contest for I manufactured Z scale goods for
            > > others. This was my disqualification. At this time, the contest
            > > was voted on by one person and not the mass majority of this
            > group.
            > > Things have since changed. Everyone gets to vote which Model is
            > the
            > > Best of the Best.
            > >
            > > Way back when, many month ago, the definition of a model was
            > > ANYTHING including a trailer that is used to haul modules from
            show
            > > to show. As I look up the definition of a model in a dictionary,
            > > this definitely was a dis-qualification. But, as I said, the
            > > contest was a one vote deal.
            > >
            > > In the past few months, this contest of the Best of the Best
            Models
            > > in Z scale has come anew! Since it's make over, a few questions
            > > have arised about what photos are acceptable. If any of you
            recall
            > > the Z Central Stations first Z Photo contest, it was wild and
            > > crazy. Had no rules except it has to be Z scale. Since that
            first
            > > contest they have installed a few rules for the contest and have
            > > added a Theme.
            > >
            > > Well, I am here to suggest a few rules for the Model of the Month
            > > contest on this Z_Scale group. As you know, this group offers
            > > nothing for the winner except the recognition diserved by posting
            > > that winning photo on this groups Home Page.
            > >
            > > I have consolidated a few basic, simple rules that I consider
            > needed
            > > for such a contest as this. Simple rules will eliminate problems
            > > that may arise in the future about certain models. Here are my
            > > suggestions!
            > > ------------------------------------------------------------
            > >
            > > Rules for Model of the Month!
            > >
            > > --This is a "MODEL" of the month Contest-- (Not a Photo Contest)
            > >
            > > The Dictionary describes a Model as; "a small object, usually
            built
            > > to scale, that represents in detail another, often larger object."
            > >
            > >
            > > A model, for this contest, can be a locomotive, rollingstock,
            > > building, vehicle, people, or any other object represented in
            1:220
            > > (Z) scale. This excludes modules and layouts in their entirety.
            > > Modules and layouts are concidered a conglomerate (collection)
            > > of "Models" to create a larger scene.
            > >
            > >
            > > Simple Rules for Entry:
            > >
            > > * Only one photo entry, per person, per month!
            > >
            > > * Photo can be of any Z scale object, as listed above that is
            1:220
            > > (Z) Scale.
            > >
            > > * Person submitting the photo "MUST" be the "author/creator" of
            the
            > > Z scale object that is displayed in the photo. Simply put, it
            must
            > > be something YOU have created.
            > >
            > > * Models of RTR Z scale products can not be entered as a model
            > > unless they have been personally modifed, by YOU, to represent a
            > > more accurate model.
            > >
            > > * A model can be placed in a scene, but must be the primary
            object
            > > in the photo. The Scene is not the model.
            > >
            > > Helpful Hints: A photo of a model that is surrounded by a nice
            > > scene is more likely to be chosen as a winner than a stand alone
            > > model with no scenery around it. Example; A photo of a
            > scratchbuilt
            > > model of a tractor and ploy will be more
            > > appealing if it were placed in a field ploying a scene rather
            than
            > > by itself with no scenery.
            > >
            > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
            > >
            > > All comments and suggestions welcomed.
            > >
            > > Hobo Tim
            > >
            >
          • Jürg Rüedi
            Hello Karin Thank you for your kind words. My entries to the Contest is a way to say thanks to John Cubbin and Lionel Gazeaus for the incredible work they did
            Message 5 of 21 , Jan 2, 2007
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              Hello Karin

              Thank you for your kind words. My entries to the Contest is a way to
              say thanks to John Cubbin and Lionel Gazeaus for the incredible work
              they did for me and to show their work to the public. I'm like a
              Gallery owner who show's the work from talented "Artists" as in the
              real world.
              As Reynard mentioned bevor, photo of the month would be the better
              name. :-)
              Last but not least, we had some photo contests on zcentralstation in
              the last few month. The June contest contained 31 pictures, the
              August contest 25 (from 7 people) the October contest 12 pictures
              (from 6 people) the December contest 13 pictures (from 6 people). As
              more rules being added as less pictures you will see in the future.

              just my 2 Cents

              Jürg

              http://www.rosetown.ch


              --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Karin Svenson" <karin@...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "sgt_tim7" <sgt_tim1@> wrote:
              >
              > > p.s. I agree that a description of the model is needed upon
              > entry.
              > > Great Suggestion!
              >
              > Hi guys,
              > This is a very important topic and should be heeded. Personally I
              > would prefer that the term "guidelines" be used when determining
              > rules for a civilized group such as this one. I would tend to
              think
              > that it would help in keeping us pulling together instead of using
              a
              > term that is more divisive like the word "rules" is.
              >
              > Guidelines are needed for the MOTM contest.
              >
              > Juerg's Rosetown depot, if it wins, should be credited a win to
              > Lionel. If his bridge and river entry wins it should be credited as
              > John Cubbin's win. I think the single most important guideline is
              > that the entry be made by the entrant or that the entrant give all
              > credit, including the win, to the maker of the model.
              >
              > I'm so glad you added those Juerg, no disrespect intended. I just
              > think the modeler needs to be the real winner.
              >
              > Sure look forward to when the day comes when I can add my feeble
              > attempt of an entry.
              >
              > Thanks for allowing me to communicate my thoughts...
              >
              > Karin
              >
            • Rick Saviano
              Allow me to add my perspective on contests: As a member of a local NMRA division, we hold monthly contests, each month having a different theme. At the
              Message 6 of 21 , Jan 2, 2007
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                Allow me to add my perspective on contests:

                As a member of a local NMRA division, we hold monthly contests, each
                month having a different theme. At the meetings, the members vote on
                the "best" model displayed, using their own criteria. Often, a more
                remedial model wins because a certain level of competency, or perceived
                improvement, or innovation is displayed in the model. I say perceived
                because these models are "anonymously" submitted, but, over the years,
                we have come to recognize some of the members' work. In any case, as
                has been pointed out in Hobo Tim's email, if only one vote is cast, it
                is only that judge's voice that is heard. The rest is moot, because the
                rest of us were mute (pardon the pun). Have we achieved the level of
                excellence where only a few will win? I think not - there is a lot of
                room for improvement for us all, and innovation is not limited to only
                the master model builders. I would personally vote for someone with an
                interesting concept that may not have been executed perfectly over a
                Z-scale rivet counter that just added 6 more rivets to perfect the
                model. The glory should go to the person who originally brought the
                idea to the group. After all, even though the rivet counter will
                incorporate the innovation the next chance he or she gets, it wouldn't
                exist without the innovator.

                As far as Uwe's comment about the models not being his, I would
                welcome all entrants. The only way to increase the hobby is to
                encourage others outside our circle to become involved. Just because a
                wife or child isn't a member (yet) of our group, we shouldn't exclude
                them. Part of the challenge within the NMRA is figuring out how to
                increase our membership.


                -Rick



                Uwe Liermann wrote:
                > ......
                >
                > I didn't build them, but they don't use the computer to communicate by
                > themself. But of course I show them everything that they want to see,
                > and most of the time some things more. In a way you can say that we
                > delegated this part of the hobby to me. Besides, since my son is in
                > third grade, he just started learning English last summer...
                >
                >
              • Don Avila
                Well it is a friendly group. Generally no barbs nor poor language. Also, SOME FOLKS have asked that the messages be clipped since they are still on dial-up. I
                Message 7 of 21 , Jan 2, 2007
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                  Well it is a friendly group. Generally no barbs nor poor language.
                  Also, SOME FOLKS have asked that the messages be clipped since they
                  are still on dial-up. I agree with you that we need SOMETHING in the
                  way of photos. We have an area where anyone can upload any train
                  photo, but that has not been entered as much as it used to with the
                  ease of uploading photos and text in both ZCENTRAL and TRAINBOARD. I
                  think what is going on here, is that a coversheet for the month is
                  trying to be established with some restrictions, although I tend to
                  agree with your view and others that the PHOTO of Z is what really counts.

                  P.S. I think you have been posting a lot more than this one. I find
                  entries back in 2004 when you were age 65.

                  --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "feyerhc" <clfeyerherm@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Hi all,
                  >
                  > I believe this is my first post to this group. I have enjoy reading
                  > most of the posts for the last several months. I find them
                  > informative, sensitive, and at times humorous.
                  >
                  > However, what is the point of this subject? MOTM is informative and
                  > inspirational. I thought this was a friendly, considerate group
                  that [snip]
                • Reynard Wellman
                  Hello Karin, As is clearly written in Jürg s descriptions, he has identified the builders by name. So what s the issue? And yes, the photo A Sunny Day is of
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jan 2, 2007
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                    Hello Karin,
                    As is clearly written in Jürg's descriptions, he has identified
                    the builders by name. So what's the issue? And yes, the photo
                    "A Sunny Day" is of a diorama and it is a fantastic
                    photograph. If dioramas and great photography are seen
                    as some kind of "trick", that dioramas should be disallowed from
                    entering, what's the point of having this contest? At least
                    that is the confusing message I am getting from this discussion.

                    I thought that the rule that the photo must be of Z scale
                    modeling is pretty good, beyond that, more rules might
                    make us all shy of submitting anything.

                    I did submit a very badly photographed Bartizan Tower
                    added to one of Bob Olson's "Quickit" structures. So I guess Bob
                    Olson should also have been mentioned since he originally
                    designed the 4 story building. I am now trying
                    to figure out how to withdraw it, since the whole issue has
                    become very muddy.

                    Best regardZ,
                    Reynard
                    On Jan 1, 2007, at 11:47 PM, Karin Svenson wrote:

                    > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "sgt_tim7" <sgt_tim1@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > p.s. I agree that a description of the model is needed upon
                    > entry.
                    > > Great Suggestion!
                    >
                    > Hi guys,
                    > This is a very important topic and should be heeded. Personally I
                    > would prefer that the term "guidelines" be used when determining
                    > rules for a civilized group such as this one. I would tend to think
                    > that it would help in keeping us pulling together instead of using a
                    > term that is more divisive like the word "rules" is.
                    >
                    > Guidelines are needed for the MOTM contest.
                    >
                    > Juerg's Rosetown depot, if it wins, should be credited a win to
                    > Lionel. If his bridge and river entry wins it should be credited as
                    > John Cubbin's win. I think the single most important guideline is
                    > that the entry be made by the entrant or that the entrant give all
                    > credit, including the win, to the maker of the model.
                    >
                    > I'm so glad you added those Juerg, no disrespect intended. I just
                    > think the modeler needs to be the real winner.
                    >
                    > Sure look forward to when the day comes when I can add my feeble
                    > attempt of an entry.
                    >
                    > Thanks for allowing me to communicate my thoughts...
                    >
                    > Karin
                    >
                    >
                    >



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Allan Borg
                    Hi all I m with the new guy. I personally do not see any distinction between a single model and creation of a diorama or a scene from a layout. I also don t
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jan 2, 2007
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                      Hi all
                      I'm with the new guy. I personally do not see any distinction between
                      a single model and creation of a diorama or a scene from a layout. I
                      also don't care if the modelling effort is a creation of the author
                      or photographer as long as the credit is so given. So what if the
                      model was made by a spouse, a friend or some other family member. If
                      it a Z scale creation it deserves a viewing. It's not like we are
                      competing for points, trophys or some other rewards. I do believe
                      that any modelling product created for commercial or contractual
                      endeavor should be excluded, but that is all.
                      Allan Borg
                      --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "feyerhc" <clfeyerherm@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Hi all,
                      >
                      > I believe this is my first post to this group. I have enjoy
                      reading
                      > most of the posts for the last several months. I find them
                      > informative, sensitive, and at times humorous.
                      >
                      > However, what is the point of this subject? MOTM is informative
                      and
                      > inspirational. I thought this was a friendly, considerate group
                      that
                      > wanted to share information, answer questions, etc. Now it looks
                      > like it has become a bickering group. If this continues, I will be
                      > dropping out of this group. The world is full of bickering and I
                      > thought this forum was for relaxation and getting away from the
                      > everyday rigors.
                      >
                      > Personally, I don't care if a submitted photo is of a highly
                      > detailed, scratchbuilt turntable, or a photo of a purchased, fully
                      > built model that is placed in a particular scene in a unigue way.
                      > All these submitted photos are inspiring.
                      >
                      > Whether a submitted model was built by the individual submitting or
                      > was done by someone else is immaterial. If this group is really a
                      > group for sharing ideas and having fun, that is all that is
                      > important. If MOTM has a whole bunch of rules and restrictions,
                      then
                      > the purpose of sharing is gone and we have brought the rigors of
                      life
                      > to this forum.
                      >
                      > Lets stay with the fun side and quit worrying about the competive
                      > aspect.
                      >
                      > The Z world is for having fun, enjoyment, and sharing.
                      >
                      > Carl in Nebraska
                    • Michael Hilliard
                      Hello, First off I d, like to thank Glen for all his efforts. I thought Model Of The Month (MOTM) was pretty self explanatory, maybe not. I d like to think our
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jan 4, 2007
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                        Hello,

                        First off I'd, like to thank Glen for all his efforts. I thought Model Of The Month (MOTM) was pretty self explanatory, maybe not. I'd like to think our members are intelligent enough to know what a model is without having to give a dictionary definition.

                        The only controversy I've read is about entering a photo of someone Else's work. Personally, I don't have a problem with this. Weather it be for a friend or family member, or something you commissioned someone else to build for you, as long as credit is given to the actual modeler. However, if someone submits a entry that someone else built and they said they built it themselves, this would be outright fraud. I would be thrilled if someone entered something I made for them, especially if it wins. It say's how satisfied they are with my work that they wanted to share it with everyone.

                        To quote Hobo Tim (Timothy Beuhring):

                        "I promise you this, I will not submit any models I have built to this
                        contest ever again! Nor will I allow anyone to submit any models I
                        have built for them as the model of the month. It is not fair!"

                        Having said that Tim, why did you even bring this topic up? Unless you get it in writing beforehand, someone has paid you to do a job and they have "bought" the right to do whatever they want with their commissioned work. I do "not" consider you or any one man/woman operation to be a manufacturer. Legally, you make "handmade" items, not manufactured, even if some steps may be considered manufactured, there is far more handmade steps.

                        Anyway, I'd like to suggest some revised rules based on your original suggestions:

                        Rules for Model of the Month:

                        -This is a Model Of The Month Contest-- (not a photo contest)

                        A model, for this contest, can be a locomotive, rollingstock,
                        building, vehicle, people, or any other object represented in 1:220
                        (Z) scale. This excludes modules and layouts in their entirety.
                        Modules and layouts are considered a conglomerate (collection)
                        of "Models" to create a larger scene.

                        Simple Rules for Entry:

                        * Only one photo entry, per person, per month.

                        * Photo can be of any Z scale object, as listed above that is 1:220
                        (Z) Scale.

                        * Person submitting the photo should be the "author/creator" of the
                        Z scale object that is displayed in the photo. If submitting a photo for someone else, the "author/creators" name must be included. If the entry wins, the author/creator is the winner, not the person that submitted the entry.

                        * Models of RTR Z scale products can not be entered as a model
                        unless they have been personally modified, by you, to represent a
                        more accurate model.

                        * A model can be placed in a scene, but must be the primary object
                        in the photo. The Scene is not the model.

                        Helpful Hints: A photo of a model that is surrounded by a nice
                        scene is more likely to be chosen as a winner than a stand alone
                        model with no scenery around it. Example; A photo of a scratchbuilt
                        model of a tractor and ploy will be more
                        appealing if it were placed in a field ploying a scene rather than
                        by itself with no scenery.

                        *Any disputes/problems that arise in respect to MOTM, will be resolved at the sole discretion of the moderators of Z_Scale. As a reminder, here are the current moderators of Z_Scale:

                        Rob Kluz, Dublin, OH
                        Glen Chenier, Allen, TX
                        Ted Lamar, San Mateo, CA
                        Greg Elmassian, San Diego, CA
                        Michael Hilliard, Wilton, CT

                        If the current method of choosing a MOTM doesn't work out for whatever reason, I don't know why it wouldn't, but this has yet to be settled, I'd suggest the 5 moderators of Z_Scale be the judges to select the MOTM. Do you "trust" the current moderators to be fair if this happened? Just in case this does happen, I'd suggest one more rule:

                        *Moderators of Z_Scale can not enter the MOTM contest, nor may anyone submit entries on their behalf.

                        Now that I got that out of my system, time to prepare for our Tri-State Z Scalers (NY, NJ, & CT) this Sat. Your feedback is welcome and appreciated. All Z BeZt,

                        Michael Hilliard
                        Wilton, CT USA





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