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Re: [Z_Scale] Re: Societies without Rules have a tendency to Collapse!

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  • Alan
    ... I think the last one is bad. Sometimes what makes something great is the composition not the specific object. The RTR rule makes no sense in a composition
    Message 1 of 21 , Jan 1, 2007
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      > > * Only one photo entry, per person, per month!
      > >
      > > * Photo can be of any Z scale object, as listed above that is 1:220
      > > (Z) Scale.
      > >
      > > * Person submitting the photo "MUST" be the "author/creator" of the
      > > Z scale object that is displayed in the photo. Simply put, it must
      > > be something YOU have created.
      > >
      > > * Models of RTR Z scale products can not be entered as a model
      > > unless they have been personally modifed, by YOU, to represent a
      > > more accurate model.
      > >
      > > * A model can be placed in a scene, but must be the primary object
      > > in the photo. The Scene is not the model.

      I think the last one is bad. Sometimes what makes something great is the
      composition not the specific object. The RTR rule makes no sense in a
      composition either.

      I'd rather see the later rules as

      * Submitter must be the author/creator of the model being displayed, or
      for a composition the creation of the diorama or other composition

      * Submitter must supply a short text note with their entry explaining
      what parts are of their own construction/modification/rtr/etc

      That will allow people to vote based upon the cleverness and complexity
      of the work as well as the result. If the summary includes brief
      explanations of what is involved it also helps us all to understand how
      we can achieve the same effects.

      Thus I'd love to see entries like

      "Ready to run GP35, fitted with foo detailing kit and scratch built
      collision damage, resprayed and weathered using XYZ powders from a
      photograph of the original"

      It might also be interesting to know if the submitter is a commercial
      outfit or a hobbyist ?

      Alan
    • Uwe Liermann
      Hello all, First I want to say, that I agree about that there have to be some kind of basic rules about the entries into the contest. They should make clear
      Message 2 of 21 , Jan 1, 2007
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        Hello all,

        First I want to say, that I agree about that there have to be some
        kind of basic rules about the entries into the contest. They should
        make clear for everybody what is wanted and what is not wanted. But
        those rules should not be more then basics, because if those rules are
        to straight then they will hinder the creativity.

        I have some additional thoughts about those rules, and what do we want
        to archive with the contest...

        > * Submitter must be the author/creator of the model being displayed, or
        > for a composition the creation of the diorama or other composition

        > * Submitter must supply a short text note with their entry explaining
        > what parts are of their own construction/modification/rtr/etc

        > That will allow people to vote based upon the cleverness and complexity
        > of the work as well as the result. If the summary includes brief
        > explanations of what is involved it also helps us all to understand how
        > we can achieve the same effects.

        ...and what effects do we want to create.

        If I read those rules mentioned correctly, then my entries into the
        December contest weren't correct. As I wrote in a mail to this group
        at the time I submitted the pictures, those pictures showed two
        buildings that were build by my wife and my son.

        I didn't build them, but they don't use the computer to communicate by
        themself. But of course I show them everything that they want to see,
        and most of the time some things more. In a way you can say that we
        delegated this part of the hobby to me. Besides, since my son is in
        third grade, he just started learning English last summer...

        My intention while submitting the pictures were, that if they archived
        a significant recognition, then I would have something to show them,
        and thus they would be a bit more proud to have created those
        buildings. Of course they are not as perfect as all those other works
        shown, but one has to start somewhere. So in this way I see it as a
        way to motivate someone to go on on the way he started.

        Therefore my questions now are:

        Is the contest only for those who already have achieved a high level
        of craftsmanship, or will it be possible for any beginner to have a
        chance too?

        And about the rule who did create the entry, what about all those
        Z-heads, that are together with a member of this group, but don't post
        here by themself?

        About the last question, I know that it's maybe a hard question to
        find an answer to, but maybe the rule that claims an explanation about
        the entry, will be a way in that it has to be stated who created the
        entry, and how s/he is connected to the one actually posting the
        entry. And which relationships are correct in this context.

        This are just my two cents worth right now, but maybe those thoughts
        can find their way into the consideration of those mentioned basic
        rules.

        --
        GreetingZ
        Uwe
      • sgt_tim7
        This is a MODEL Contest, Not a PHOTO Contest! In order to better understand what I first wrote, you must first understand this is a MODEL Contest! MODEL! It
        Message 3 of 21 , Jan 1, 2007
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          This is a MODEL Contest, Not a PHOTO Contest!

          In order to better understand what I first wrote, you must first
          understand this is a MODEL Contest!

          MODEL!

          It has been called a Model contest ever since it was started several
          years ago. Alot of the winning choices were not necessarily models,
          but as of three months ago, this contest has been given a new life.
          I'd prefer to make the best of this contest.

          (Have I entered lately, yes I have, it was the "Z" scale brass
          etched kit of the MACK Logging Truck that Republic Locomotive Works
          sells. It was a Kit to be built into what I personally created it
          to be. Specific colors of my choice. Personalized by me! These
          kits have been known by the active members of this group for more
          than 2 years. I hear many people have these kits, but am I the
          first to build it and display it? Apparantly so. Have heard of no
          one else building it yet.)


          The rule I made for the NO RTR models. Let me clarify it more. You
          can't take a MTL GP35 straight from the box, throw some plain
          rollingstock behind it on a module and call it a model. It is
          readily available and ANYONE can own one. Now, if you take a Undec
          GP35, modify the body with BLMA details, then give it a paint scheme
          already chosen by MTL or give it a paint scheme not yet released,
          then that is a model to be proud of for it is SPECIAL!

          You can take a Kibri or Vollmer kit, put it together, throw in some
          special detailing, and You have a One-of-a-kind model that no one
          else has.

          Robert Ray makes laser cut rollingstock and other cool Z things.
          People have bought his kits and assembled and decorated them
          especially the way they want them. One-of-a-kind!

          Paper Creek sells Z scale buildings and paper details in Z. People
          have built these buildings and added special touches to them to
          personalize their craftiness. One-of-a-kind!

          Micron Art makes that beautiful bridge in etched brass. Several
          people have built them and added them to their layouts or modules.
          They personalize them to what they want. One-of-a-kind!

          The Rabbit Hash General Store is made by MPP. When the first one
          that is built, I guarantee you the person who builds it will
          personalize it to their likings and it will not look like the
          product photo when completed.

          If I go to the Hobby store to buy a model, it is a kit of a car,
          truck, plane, boat, space ship or even military equipment. It is of
          an object I get to assemble, personalize, and I display it proudly.
          If I built it, I take more pride in it than a car, truck, plane,
          boat or what ever that is already assembled, painted and is numbered
          20,000 in a set that are Identical. What is their to be proud of
          that? I own one of a thousand Santa Fe GP35's that MTL made. Whoop-
          Dee-Doo! It's not special. I have not modified the body with
          styrene or BLMA etched details. I don't feel compelled to show it
          off as a model of pride. It's ordinary for many people have the
          same plain GP35. It's not the Best of the Best GP35's out there!

          In the last 12 months there have been several members of this group
          who have stepped into the creative role of Z scale and have, for the
          first time, built a kit and personalized it to their likings. One-
          of-a-kind! When they post photos of that end result you can read in
          their words how proud they are to have attempted such a project and
          have the results turn out the way they did. When I read posts like
          this and see their awesome achievements, I give praise for I want
          them to continue, to build more, to release that creative Z monster
          inside.

          This is not a scratch building contest. If it seriously were, the
          gloves would have been taken off and some amazing models would be
          constructed. But!!!! It is not.

          I am building my first ever module. I have never been on this road
          before. I am learning alot. I don't have a layout. When I run
          trains, I run them on a small oval track that is thrown down on the
          table top. When I finish this module, it will be something I am
          very proud of. Has anyone other than myself ever built a module or
          layout before in Z scale? Stupid question, I know! I feel as
          though I am the last person in the Z community to venture into
          module building. Heck, I am going to be the last Z scaler to get
          into DCC too. It happens when it happens. Will I post photos of my
          module when finished. Heck yeah, but not in the Model of the Month
          contest.

          I've rambled on too much!

          Just remember, it is a Model Contest, not a Photo Contest!

          Hobo Tim

          p.s. I agree that a description of the model is needed upon entry.
          Great Suggestion!
        • Reynard Wellman
          Hi Hobo Tim, The rules as they stand today seem perfectly suited to our friendly and fun loving hobby. If we get too pedantic about our modeling then then the
          Message 4 of 21 , Jan 1, 2007
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            Hi Hobo Tim,
            The rules as they stand today seem perfectly suited
            to our friendly and fun loving hobby. If we get too
            pedantic about our modeling then then the Model of
            the Month will lose a lot of it's "wow!" factor.
            Sometimes layouts and models are the result of
            many different folk's efforts & talents - should we deny credit
            to those sociable undertakings?
            Therefor I do not agree with all of your ideas but
            I still esteem your input and your talents.

            Best regardZ,
            Reynard
            On Jan 1, 2007, at 12:18 PM, sgt_tim7 wrote:
            >
            <edited for length
            >
            >
            > All comments and suggestions welcomed.
            >
            > Hobo Tim
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Jim O'Connell
            ... Tim, I just looked at the contestants in the Model of the Month Contest. According to your rules all of us should be disqualified. One is a general layout
            Message 5 of 21 , Jan 1, 2007
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              --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "sgt_tim7" <sgt_tim1@...> wrote:
              >
              > This is a MODEL Contest, Not a PHOTO Contest!
              >
              Tim, I just looked at the contestants in the Model of the Month
              Contest. According to your rules all of us should be disqualified.
              One is a general layout scene. Two others are submitted by a person
              that did not build their entry. One is a mini layout without a
              specific focus point. And then there is my entry. I guess I'm out
              because I scratch built an operating turntable for under $10 and
              called it a model. Oh, the two Moguls in the background? I
              purposely put them in because of the whining about my entry in the
              contest you eventually won with your log truck. As for photography.
              I'm sorry you don't or can't appreciate the looks of a fairly good
              photo. I think I still have my Kodak Instamatic somewhere. This
              month you are not even in the contest and here we have to start the
              new year this way. Possibly you should make your thoughts known to
              Glen privately. I'm quite proud of my turntable and the photo it
              appears in. Next month I'll jiggle my camera a bit and generally
              dumb it down. "Gimme back by Model of the Month Award!" Laugh out
              loud, Jim A New CCRR
            • sgt_tim7
              Jim, I see nothing wrong with your entry! It is something you built that no one else has. A one-of-a-kind model specifically built for your layout/module.
              Message 6 of 21 , Jan 1, 2007
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                Jim,

                I see nothing wrong with your entry! It is something you built that
                no one else has. A one-of-a-kind model specifically built for your
                layout/module. It is the model that you are proposing for the model
                of the month. Perfect entry!

                I also see a modified F7 shell into an FP7 with a custom paint job.
                Awesome!

                There is a stand alone mini or micro tote-where-you-go layout. This
                is not a huge room size layout which I refered to earlier! This mini
                layout is the model being presented in the photo. Another great entry!

                I see nothing wrong with any of these entries you mentioned! They are
                ideal! Exactly what the Model of the month contest is all about!

                To encourage and inspire modelers to post their creations, and to
                continue to create more!

                Look at the current MOTM winner. The model is the Andy Tivio Ranch
                barn that Robert Ray made. He once told the story of why he made this
                barn. Inspiration for other modelers. This barn is set in a nice
                scene. Has a car driving down the road, Z scale people, and has one
                of my tractors in the door. The model is the barn. It's personal to
                Robert as to why he built it. It's a one-of-a-kind. If he wasn't
                proud of his creation, he wouldn't have placed it in his module. The
                model is the barn!

                If you want a Photo Contest, wait till your theme is announced on Z
                Central Station, then post your photos. I don't have any bridges or
                tunnels so I could not post any photos in that themed contest. But, I
                do have scratchbuilds, and I did post photos in that themed contest.
                Matter of fact, I just asked that my photos be removed from the
                judging in that contest.

                If ever I wanted to submit a photo to this Model of the Month contest,
                it was more than a year ago and it was that of my own personal Mi-Jack
                Translift crane. It took over a year to completely build it. Am I
                proud of it, you bet I am. I have made 10+ Mi-Jacks since then all
                for other Z scalers. All of them cast from another master I made. Am
                I proud of those 10+ Mi-Jacks? No where as proud as the one special
                one that is my own. Jokingly, I've been offered $500 for it, I said
                No way! That is the kind of "Models" that belong on this contest.

                I promise you this, I will not submit any models I have built to this
                contest ever again! Nor will I allow anyone to submit any models I
                have built for them as the model of the month. It is not fair!

                When I build models for myself, I am building them for my own personal
                use. If I make a master and produce them in cast resin or etched
                brass, those were made by TNT'z, not the hobbyist in Hobo Tim. I am
                both a manufacturer and a Hobbyist. That Logging Truck belongs to me,
                Hobo Tim, not TNT'z.

                This is a model contest, not a photo contest. Allow the talent that
                is out there to submit their creations.

                Hobo Tim

                p.s. FYI, the first I heard of my model of the Logging Truck winning
                was from an email from one of the moderators. No complaints came from
                me as to the validity of Z or Nn3. I was perfectly ok with the first
                model chosen. I am not looking for a conflict.
              • Allan Miller
                I sure do agree with your observation, Reynard! I already see some evidence of this segment of the hobby--at least as it s represented here often
                Message 7 of 21 , Jan 1, 2007
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                  I sure do agree with your observation, Reynard!

                  I already see some evidence of this segment of the hobby--at least as
                  it's represented here often enough--becoming something of an elitist
                  club. As I see it, that's a sure way to limit the attraction of Z as
                  a viable alternative to the many other scales that are available--most
                  of which have far greater overall participation.

                  Once the whole thing becomes too serious, and folks lose sight of the
                  fun and friendly aspect that Z most definitely was in its formative
                  period, it will lose something that it can never fully recover. And
                  that would be very sad to see.

                  I, for one, enjoy seeing the diverse creative efforts of others, from
                  the simple to the sophisticated. I like seeing trains displayed in
                  their environment, and I look at the overall effect, without regard to
                  whether the individual built the thing out of toothpicks or purchased
                  it new in box.

                  Maybe it should be "Photo of the Month" rather than "Model of the
                  Month" in order to attract a more broad range of entries from
                  hobbyists of all skill levels.

                  --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Reynard Wellman <micron@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Hobo Tim,
                  > The rules as they stand today seem perfectly suited
                  > to our friendly and fun loving hobby. If we get too
                  > pedantic about our modeling then then the Model of
                  > the Month will lose a lot of it's "wow!" factor.
                  > Sometimes layouts and models are the result of
                  > many different folk's efforts & talents - should we deny credit
                  > to those sociable undertakings?
                  > Therefor I do not agree with all of your ideas but
                  > I still esteem your input and your talents.
                  >
                  > Best regardZ,
                  > Reynard
                  > On Jan 1, 2007, at 12:18 PM, sgt_tim7 wrote:
                  > >
                  > <edited for length
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > All comments and suggestions welcomed.
                  > >
                  > > Hobo Tim
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • Jim O'Connell
                  ... Tim, Well, thanks for the above. If you read my post again you will see I tried to make it a bit humorous. I know more about the MotM contest you ended
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jan 1, 2007
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                    --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "sgt_tim7" <sgt_tim1@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Jim,
                    >
                    > I see nothing wrong with your entry! It is something you built that
                    > no one else has. A one-of-a-kind model specifically built for your
                    > layout/module. It is the model that you are proposing for the model
                    > of the month. Perfect entry!
                    >
                    Tim, Well, thanks for the above. If you read my post again you
                    will see I tried to make it a bit humorous. I know more about the MotM
                    contest you ended up winning than you do and I have no hard feelings
                    about it. I didn't mean to imply you were one of the whiners. Far from
                    it. I'm still laughing and so should you. As for this contest, maybe
                    it should go back to the judgement of one moderator. On Z Central
                    we've eliminated the group vote. As a moderator there I think I will
                    be one of five or so voters this next time around. Your proposal and
                    those of others have merit and more rules are fine with me. Even
                    though as you know I enjoy pushing the limits of all rules. Frankly,
                    we are all different, with different likes and talents. Take
                    photography. I take pride in the fact that I think I know how to take
                    a photo. Even before digital, I spent thousands of dollars on taking
                    the correct, to my mind and eye, photographs. This small gift would of
                    course spill over to any contest I entered. Simple pride of
                    the 'model/subject' and pride of a presentable photo is something I
                    don't think I could do any other way; my best. A good photo of a model
                    should not come into the discussion. Nor should it deter one from
                    voting for your logging truck picture because someone else's photo has
                    more content than necessary. This being said maybe we will have some
                    concrete rules and you must reconsider entering these little contests.
                    They're fun and I for one want to see how my work compares with the
                    likes of John and Ray. I'm still relatively new at this, but if you
                    have a less than serious attitude I think these contests are fun and
                    good measures of modeling progress. This month? I'm only sad Torsja
                    didn't enter, and you too. Cheers, Jim A New CCRR
                  • Michael Hilliard
                    I m not talking about the sounds I ve read here today. No, the delightful sound of a New Haven Railroad FL9 sounding it s horns on the Danbury line of Metro
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jan 1, 2007
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                      I'm not talking about the "sounds" I've read here today. No, the delightful sound of a New Haven Railroad FL9 sounding it's horns on the Danbury line of Metro North as it runs through Wilton, CT tonigh, the town I live in. It's the last train of the night at 11:34 on this New Years Day/night. A nice sound to fall asleep to on this first day of the year. It's also pleasant to think that FL9 is a old locomotive ( a "5" axel locomotive) and is the property of the New Haven Historical Society and still maintained to do everyday service like tonight. To me that sound turns into a bedtime story to sleep well to. G'Night everyone, May your Z dreams come true in 2007, and Happy New Year to all,

                      Michael Hilliard
                      Wilton, CT USA






                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Loren Snyder
                      Tim, I hasten to mention that the best looking model, be it scratch built, kit bashed, or other, must be photographed carefully and professionally in order to
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jan 1, 2007
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                        Tim,
                        I hasten to mention that the best looking model, be it scratch built, kit
                        bashed, or other, must be photographed carefully and professionally in order
                        to bring out its fine points. Lousy camera work can ruin a great product,
                        so I say that a model builder needs to show off his work in the best light
                        possible, and that light just may be the flash of a great camera with
                        additional lighting, etc.

                        Ask Lionell who scratch builds most if not all his items, he takes great
                        pains, (though not expensively I might add) to take good quality photos.
                        With out such, no one would ever really get a true understanding of his
                        modeling skills and professionalism.

                        I'll even go as far as to say that good photography is vital and mandatory
                        in order for any object to win a prize in any sort of contest.

                        Just some thoughts,
                        Loren

                        -------Original Message-------

                        From: sgt_tim7
                        Date: 1/1/2007 7:40:25 PM
                        To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: Societies without Rules have a tendency to Collapse!

                        <snip>

                        <This is a model contest, not a photo contest. Allow the talent that
                        <is out there to submit their creations.

                        Hobo Tim


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Glen Chenier
                        ... Well, just to keep all the facts straight, Tim initially did just that. The MOTM has been running long enough now that resulting submission guidelines can
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jan 1, 2007
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                          --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Jim O'Connell" <jimo.crcmnvgtr@...>
                          wrote:
                          >... Possibly you should make your thoughts known to
                          > Glen privately....

                          Well, just to keep all the facts straight, Tim initially did just
                          that. The MOTM has been running long enough now that resulting
                          submission guidelines can be suggested, discussed and debated, and
                          eventually voted on once suggestions are compiled and all have an
                          input as to what the Guidelines poll choices should consist of. I
                          asked Tim to start the ball rolling by presenting his concerns and
                          ideas to the list membership, which he has done very effectively.
                          All suggestions will be subject to membership vote as to whether or
                          not they will apply in future MOTM.

                          This gathering of suggestions and current discussion is for future
                          submissions and do not apply to the Jan07 MOTM. I will set up the
                          Jan07 MOTM poll in a couple days.

                          Now I'm taking off the 'Moderator Hat' and as a member am going to
                          throw in my own suggestions for discussion, a couple of which have
                          already been mentioned from other members. The main thing to keep in
                          mind is that our MOTM is intended as an informal fun activity, and
                          whatever rules/guides evolve should be kept to a minimum.


                          1. Rules or Guides? If a submission does not conform to the eventual
                          rules should it be disqualified or allowed to stand with or without
                          edited corrections? If the entry blatently does not conform it will
                          get discussed in posts and then not receive many votes anyway. The
                          voting process itself will eliminate entries that the membership does
                          not condone.

                          2. If the featured model or other supporting inclusions were built or
                          detailed as a one-of-a-kind by someone other than the photo
                          submitter, the names of the other artists should be credited in the
                          photo description. Due to restrictions on length of the description
                          that can be provided with the photo, if more text is needed one could
                          make a fully descriptive post.

                          3. Specify exactly what is the model in the photo being submitted.
                          In many scenes auxilliary items are included to set off the model
                          itself. If the model is a spectacular work of either natural
                          scenery, a turntable, a bridge,etc, and includes unmodified RTR items
                          then the description can focus on the model, not the auxilliary items.


                          If items 2 and 3 are acceptable, these should allow virtually any
                          subject matter in the entries as long as full disclosure and credits
                          are given.

                          Item 1 needs more discussion.
                        • Karin Svenson
                          ... entry. ... Hi guys, This is a very important topic and should be heeded. Personally I would prefer that the term guidelines be used when determining
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jan 1, 2007
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                            --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "sgt_tim7" <sgt_tim1@...> wrote:

                            > p.s. I agree that a description of the model is needed upon
                            entry.
                            > Great Suggestion!

                            Hi guys,
                            This is a very important topic and should be heeded. Personally I
                            would prefer that the term "guidelines" be used when determining
                            rules for a civilized group such as this one. I would tend to think
                            that it would help in keeping us pulling together instead of using a
                            term that is more divisive like the word "rules" is.

                            Guidelines are needed for the MOTM contest.

                            Juerg's Rosetown depot, if it wins, should be credited a win to
                            Lionel. If his bridge and river entry wins it should be credited as
                            John Cubbin's win. I think the single most important guideline is
                            that the entry be made by the entrant or that the entrant give all
                            credit, including the win, to the maker of the model.

                            I'm so glad you added those Juerg, no disrespect intended. I just
                            think the modeler needs to be the real winner.

                            Sure look forward to when the day comes when I can add my feeble
                            attempt of an entry.

                            Thanks for allowing me to communicate my thoughts...

                            Karin
                          • feyerhc
                            Hi all, I believe this is my first post to this group. I have enjoy reading most of the posts for the last several months. I find them informative,
                            Message 13 of 21 , Jan 2, 2007
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                              Hi all,

                              I believe this is my first post to this group. I have enjoy reading
                              most of the posts for the last several months. I find them
                              informative, sensitive, and at times humorous.

                              However, what is the point of this subject? MOTM is informative and
                              inspirational. I thought this was a friendly, considerate group that
                              wanted to share information, answer questions, etc. Now it looks
                              like it has become a bickering group. If this continues, I will be
                              dropping out of this group. The world is full of bickering and I
                              thought this forum was for relaxation and getting away from the
                              everyday rigors.

                              Personally, I don't care if a submitted photo is of a highly
                              detailed, scratchbuilt turntable, or a photo of a purchased, fully
                              built model that is placed in a particular scene in a unigue way.
                              All these submitted photos are inspiring.

                              Whether a submitted model was built by the individual submitting or
                              was done by someone else is immaterial. If this group is really a
                              group for sharing ideas and having fun, that is all that is
                              important. If MOTM has a whole bunch of rules and restrictions, then
                              the purpose of sharing is gone and we have brought the rigors of life
                              to this forum.

                              Lets stay with the fun side and quit worrying about the competive
                              aspect.

                              The Z world is for having fun, enjoyment, and sharing.

                              Carl in Nebraska


                              --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Jürg Rüedi <juerg.rueedi@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi Tim
                              >
                              > I disagree with some of your "rules". For me that sounds more like
                              a
                              > scratchbuild contest and not a Model of the month contest and most
                              of
                              > the Group Members (me too) doesen't have the skills to build a
                              > masterpiece. If the rules will change in the way you suggested, I
                              > think there will be every month the same few talented Guys in the
                              > contest. :-)
                              >
                              > Sincerley
                              > Jürg
                              >
                              > http://www.rosetown.ch
                              >
                              > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "sgt_tim7" <sgt_tim1@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > I want to post a message this groups Photo of the month contest.
                              > > Was a good many months ago, perhaps 24 or so, that I was dis-
                              > > qualified from entering any of my personalized models in this
                              > groups
                              > > Model of the Month contest for I manufactured Z scale goods for
                              > > others. This was my disqualification. At this time, the contest
                              > > was voted on by one person and not the mass majority of this
                              > group.
                              > > Things have since changed. Everyone gets to vote which Model is
                              > the
                              > > Best of the Best.
                              > >
                              > > Way back when, many month ago, the definition of a model was
                              > > ANYTHING including a trailer that is used to haul modules from
                              show
                              > > to show. As I look up the definition of a model in a dictionary,
                              > > this definitely was a dis-qualification. But, as I said, the
                              > > contest was a one vote deal.
                              > >
                              > > In the past few months, this contest of the Best of the Best
                              Models
                              > > in Z scale has come anew! Since it's make over, a few questions
                              > > have arised about what photos are acceptable. If any of you
                              recall
                              > > the Z Central Stations first Z Photo contest, it was wild and
                              > > crazy. Had no rules except it has to be Z scale. Since that
                              first
                              > > contest they have installed a few rules for the contest and have
                              > > added a Theme.
                              > >
                              > > Well, I am here to suggest a few rules for the Model of the Month
                              > > contest on this Z_Scale group. As you know, this group offers
                              > > nothing for the winner except the recognition diserved by posting
                              > > that winning photo on this groups Home Page.
                              > >
                              > > I have consolidated a few basic, simple rules that I consider
                              > needed
                              > > for such a contest as this. Simple rules will eliminate problems
                              > > that may arise in the future about certain models. Here are my
                              > > suggestions!
                              > > ------------------------------------------------------------
                              > >
                              > > Rules for Model of the Month!
                              > >
                              > > --This is a "MODEL" of the month Contest-- (Not a Photo Contest)
                              > >
                              > > The Dictionary describes a Model as; "a small object, usually
                              built
                              > > to scale, that represents in detail another, often larger object."
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > A model, for this contest, can be a locomotive, rollingstock,
                              > > building, vehicle, people, or any other object represented in
                              1:220
                              > > (Z) scale. This excludes modules and layouts in their entirety.
                              > > Modules and layouts are concidered a conglomerate (collection)
                              > > of "Models" to create a larger scene.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Simple Rules for Entry:
                              > >
                              > > * Only one photo entry, per person, per month!
                              > >
                              > > * Photo can be of any Z scale object, as listed above that is
                              1:220
                              > > (Z) Scale.
                              > >
                              > > * Person submitting the photo "MUST" be the "author/creator" of
                              the
                              > > Z scale object that is displayed in the photo. Simply put, it
                              must
                              > > be something YOU have created.
                              > >
                              > > * Models of RTR Z scale products can not be entered as a model
                              > > unless they have been personally modifed, by YOU, to represent a
                              > > more accurate model.
                              > >
                              > > * A model can be placed in a scene, but must be the primary
                              object
                              > > in the photo. The Scene is not the model.
                              > >
                              > > Helpful Hints: A photo of a model that is surrounded by a nice
                              > > scene is more likely to be chosen as a winner than a stand alone
                              > > model with no scenery around it. Example; A photo of a
                              > scratchbuilt
                              > > model of a tractor and ploy will be more
                              > > appealing if it were placed in a field ploying a scene rather
                              than
                              > > by itself with no scenery.
                              > >
                              > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
                              > >
                              > > All comments and suggestions welcomed.
                              > >
                              > > Hobo Tim
                              > >
                              >
                            • Jürg Rüedi
                              Hello Karin Thank you for your kind words. My entries to the Contest is a way to say thanks to John Cubbin and Lionel Gazeaus for the incredible work they did
                              Message 14 of 21 , Jan 2, 2007
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                                Hello Karin

                                Thank you for your kind words. My entries to the Contest is a way to
                                say thanks to John Cubbin and Lionel Gazeaus for the incredible work
                                they did for me and to show their work to the public. I'm like a
                                Gallery owner who show's the work from talented "Artists" as in the
                                real world.
                                As Reynard mentioned bevor, photo of the month would be the better
                                name. :-)
                                Last but not least, we had some photo contests on zcentralstation in
                                the last few month. The June contest contained 31 pictures, the
                                August contest 25 (from 7 people) the October contest 12 pictures
                                (from 6 people) the December contest 13 pictures (from 6 people). As
                                more rules being added as less pictures you will see in the future.

                                just my 2 Cents

                                Jürg

                                http://www.rosetown.ch


                                --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Karin Svenson" <karin@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "sgt_tim7" <sgt_tim1@> wrote:
                                >
                                > > p.s. I agree that a description of the model is needed upon
                                > entry.
                                > > Great Suggestion!
                                >
                                > Hi guys,
                                > This is a very important topic and should be heeded. Personally I
                                > would prefer that the term "guidelines" be used when determining
                                > rules for a civilized group such as this one. I would tend to
                                think
                                > that it would help in keeping us pulling together instead of using
                                a
                                > term that is more divisive like the word "rules" is.
                                >
                                > Guidelines are needed for the MOTM contest.
                                >
                                > Juerg's Rosetown depot, if it wins, should be credited a win to
                                > Lionel. If his bridge and river entry wins it should be credited as
                                > John Cubbin's win. I think the single most important guideline is
                                > that the entry be made by the entrant or that the entrant give all
                                > credit, including the win, to the maker of the model.
                                >
                                > I'm so glad you added those Juerg, no disrespect intended. I just
                                > think the modeler needs to be the real winner.
                                >
                                > Sure look forward to when the day comes when I can add my feeble
                                > attempt of an entry.
                                >
                                > Thanks for allowing me to communicate my thoughts...
                                >
                                > Karin
                                >
                              • Rick Saviano
                                Allow me to add my perspective on contests: As a member of a local NMRA division, we hold monthly contests, each month having a different theme. At the
                                Message 15 of 21 , Jan 2, 2007
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                                  Allow me to add my perspective on contests:

                                  As a member of a local NMRA division, we hold monthly contests, each
                                  month having a different theme. At the meetings, the members vote on
                                  the "best" model displayed, using their own criteria. Often, a more
                                  remedial model wins because a certain level of competency, or perceived
                                  improvement, or innovation is displayed in the model. I say perceived
                                  because these models are "anonymously" submitted, but, over the years,
                                  we have come to recognize some of the members' work. In any case, as
                                  has been pointed out in Hobo Tim's email, if only one vote is cast, it
                                  is only that judge's voice that is heard. The rest is moot, because the
                                  rest of us were mute (pardon the pun). Have we achieved the level of
                                  excellence where only a few will win? I think not - there is a lot of
                                  room for improvement for us all, and innovation is not limited to only
                                  the master model builders. I would personally vote for someone with an
                                  interesting concept that may not have been executed perfectly over a
                                  Z-scale rivet counter that just added 6 more rivets to perfect the
                                  model. The glory should go to the person who originally brought the
                                  idea to the group. After all, even though the rivet counter will
                                  incorporate the innovation the next chance he or she gets, it wouldn't
                                  exist without the innovator.

                                  As far as Uwe's comment about the models not being his, I would
                                  welcome all entrants. The only way to increase the hobby is to
                                  encourage others outside our circle to become involved. Just because a
                                  wife or child isn't a member (yet) of our group, we shouldn't exclude
                                  them. Part of the challenge within the NMRA is figuring out how to
                                  increase our membership.


                                  -Rick



                                  Uwe Liermann wrote:
                                  > ......
                                  >
                                  > I didn't build them, but they don't use the computer to communicate by
                                  > themself. But of course I show them everything that they want to see,
                                  > and most of the time some things more. In a way you can say that we
                                  > delegated this part of the hobby to me. Besides, since my son is in
                                  > third grade, he just started learning English last summer...
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Don Avila
                                  Well it is a friendly group. Generally no barbs nor poor language. Also, SOME FOLKS have asked that the messages be clipped since they are still on dial-up. I
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Jan 2, 2007
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                                    Well it is a friendly group. Generally no barbs nor poor language.
                                    Also, SOME FOLKS have asked that the messages be clipped since they
                                    are still on dial-up. I agree with you that we need SOMETHING in the
                                    way of photos. We have an area where anyone can upload any train
                                    photo, but that has not been entered as much as it used to with the
                                    ease of uploading photos and text in both ZCENTRAL and TRAINBOARD. I
                                    think what is going on here, is that a coversheet for the month is
                                    trying to be established with some restrictions, although I tend to
                                    agree with your view and others that the PHOTO of Z is what really counts.

                                    P.S. I think you have been posting a lot more than this one. I find
                                    entries back in 2004 when you were age 65.

                                    --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "feyerhc" <clfeyerherm@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Hi all,
                                    >
                                    > I believe this is my first post to this group. I have enjoy reading
                                    > most of the posts for the last several months. I find them
                                    > informative, sensitive, and at times humorous.
                                    >
                                    > However, what is the point of this subject? MOTM is informative and
                                    > inspirational. I thought this was a friendly, considerate group
                                    that [snip]
                                  • Reynard Wellman
                                    Hello Karin, As is clearly written in Jürg s descriptions, he has identified the builders by name. So what s the issue? And yes, the photo A Sunny Day is of
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Jan 2, 2007
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                                      Hello Karin,
                                      As is clearly written in Jürg's descriptions, he has identified
                                      the builders by name. So what's the issue? And yes, the photo
                                      "A Sunny Day" is of a diorama and it is a fantastic
                                      photograph. If dioramas and great photography are seen
                                      as some kind of "trick", that dioramas should be disallowed from
                                      entering, what's the point of having this contest? At least
                                      that is the confusing message I am getting from this discussion.

                                      I thought that the rule that the photo must be of Z scale
                                      modeling is pretty good, beyond that, more rules might
                                      make us all shy of submitting anything.

                                      I did submit a very badly photographed Bartizan Tower
                                      added to one of Bob Olson's "Quickit" structures. So I guess Bob
                                      Olson should also have been mentioned since he originally
                                      designed the 4 story building. I am now trying
                                      to figure out how to withdraw it, since the whole issue has
                                      become very muddy.

                                      Best regardZ,
                                      Reynard
                                      On Jan 1, 2007, at 11:47 PM, Karin Svenson wrote:

                                      > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "sgt_tim7" <sgt_tim1@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > p.s. I agree that a description of the model is needed upon
                                      > entry.
                                      > > Great Suggestion!
                                      >
                                      > Hi guys,
                                      > This is a very important topic and should be heeded. Personally I
                                      > would prefer that the term "guidelines" be used when determining
                                      > rules for a civilized group such as this one. I would tend to think
                                      > that it would help in keeping us pulling together instead of using a
                                      > term that is more divisive like the word "rules" is.
                                      >
                                      > Guidelines are needed for the MOTM contest.
                                      >
                                      > Juerg's Rosetown depot, if it wins, should be credited a win to
                                      > Lionel. If his bridge and river entry wins it should be credited as
                                      > John Cubbin's win. I think the single most important guideline is
                                      > that the entry be made by the entrant or that the entrant give all
                                      > credit, including the win, to the maker of the model.
                                      >
                                      > I'm so glad you added those Juerg, no disrespect intended. I just
                                      > think the modeler needs to be the real winner.
                                      >
                                      > Sure look forward to when the day comes when I can add my feeble
                                      > attempt of an entry.
                                      >
                                      > Thanks for allowing me to communicate my thoughts...
                                      >
                                      > Karin
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >



                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Allan Borg
                                      Hi all I m with the new guy. I personally do not see any distinction between a single model and creation of a diorama or a scene from a layout. I also don t
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Jan 2, 2007
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                                        Hi all
                                        I'm with the new guy. I personally do not see any distinction between
                                        a single model and creation of a diorama or a scene from a layout. I
                                        also don't care if the modelling effort is a creation of the author
                                        or photographer as long as the credit is so given. So what if the
                                        model was made by a spouse, a friend or some other family member. If
                                        it a Z scale creation it deserves a viewing. It's not like we are
                                        competing for points, trophys or some other rewards. I do believe
                                        that any modelling product created for commercial or contractual
                                        endeavor should be excluded, but that is all.
                                        Allan Borg
                                        --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "feyerhc" <clfeyerherm@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Hi all,
                                        >
                                        > I believe this is my first post to this group. I have enjoy
                                        reading
                                        > most of the posts for the last several months. I find them
                                        > informative, sensitive, and at times humorous.
                                        >
                                        > However, what is the point of this subject? MOTM is informative
                                        and
                                        > inspirational. I thought this was a friendly, considerate group
                                        that
                                        > wanted to share information, answer questions, etc. Now it looks
                                        > like it has become a bickering group. If this continues, I will be
                                        > dropping out of this group. The world is full of bickering and I
                                        > thought this forum was for relaxation and getting away from the
                                        > everyday rigors.
                                        >
                                        > Personally, I don't care if a submitted photo is of a highly
                                        > detailed, scratchbuilt turntable, or a photo of a purchased, fully
                                        > built model that is placed in a particular scene in a unigue way.
                                        > All these submitted photos are inspiring.
                                        >
                                        > Whether a submitted model was built by the individual submitting or
                                        > was done by someone else is immaterial. If this group is really a
                                        > group for sharing ideas and having fun, that is all that is
                                        > important. If MOTM has a whole bunch of rules and restrictions,
                                        then
                                        > the purpose of sharing is gone and we have brought the rigors of
                                        life
                                        > to this forum.
                                        >
                                        > Lets stay with the fun side and quit worrying about the competive
                                        > aspect.
                                        >
                                        > The Z world is for having fun, enjoyment, and sharing.
                                        >
                                        > Carl in Nebraska
                                      • Michael Hilliard
                                        Hello, First off I d, like to thank Glen for all his efforts. I thought Model Of The Month (MOTM) was pretty self explanatory, maybe not. I d like to think our
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Jan 4, 2007
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                                          Hello,

                                          First off I'd, like to thank Glen for all his efforts. I thought Model Of The Month (MOTM) was pretty self explanatory, maybe not. I'd like to think our members are intelligent enough to know what a model is without having to give a dictionary definition.

                                          The only controversy I've read is about entering a photo of someone Else's work. Personally, I don't have a problem with this. Weather it be for a friend or family member, or something you commissioned someone else to build for you, as long as credit is given to the actual modeler. However, if someone submits a entry that someone else built and they said they built it themselves, this would be outright fraud. I would be thrilled if someone entered something I made for them, especially if it wins. It say's how satisfied they are with my work that they wanted to share it with everyone.

                                          To quote Hobo Tim (Timothy Beuhring):

                                          "I promise you this, I will not submit any models I have built to this
                                          contest ever again! Nor will I allow anyone to submit any models I
                                          have built for them as the model of the month. It is not fair!"

                                          Having said that Tim, why did you even bring this topic up? Unless you get it in writing beforehand, someone has paid you to do a job and they have "bought" the right to do whatever they want with their commissioned work. I do "not" consider you or any one man/woman operation to be a manufacturer. Legally, you make "handmade" items, not manufactured, even if some steps may be considered manufactured, there is far more handmade steps.

                                          Anyway, I'd like to suggest some revised rules based on your original suggestions:

                                          Rules for Model of the Month:

                                          -This is a Model Of The Month Contest-- (not a photo contest)

                                          A model, for this contest, can be a locomotive, rollingstock,
                                          building, vehicle, people, or any other object represented in 1:220
                                          (Z) scale. This excludes modules and layouts in their entirety.
                                          Modules and layouts are considered a conglomerate (collection)
                                          of "Models" to create a larger scene.

                                          Simple Rules for Entry:

                                          * Only one photo entry, per person, per month.

                                          * Photo can be of any Z scale object, as listed above that is 1:220
                                          (Z) Scale.

                                          * Person submitting the photo should be the "author/creator" of the
                                          Z scale object that is displayed in the photo. If submitting a photo for someone else, the "author/creators" name must be included. If the entry wins, the author/creator is the winner, not the person that submitted the entry.

                                          * Models of RTR Z scale products can not be entered as a model
                                          unless they have been personally modified, by you, to represent a
                                          more accurate model.

                                          * A model can be placed in a scene, but must be the primary object
                                          in the photo. The Scene is not the model.

                                          Helpful Hints: A photo of a model that is surrounded by a nice
                                          scene is more likely to be chosen as a winner than a stand alone
                                          model with no scenery around it. Example; A photo of a scratchbuilt
                                          model of a tractor and ploy will be more
                                          appealing if it were placed in a field ploying a scene rather than
                                          by itself with no scenery.

                                          *Any disputes/problems that arise in respect to MOTM, will be resolved at the sole discretion of the moderators of Z_Scale. As a reminder, here are the current moderators of Z_Scale:

                                          Rob Kluz, Dublin, OH
                                          Glen Chenier, Allen, TX
                                          Ted Lamar, San Mateo, CA
                                          Greg Elmassian, San Diego, CA
                                          Michael Hilliard, Wilton, CT

                                          If the current method of choosing a MOTM doesn't work out for whatever reason, I don't know why it wouldn't, but this has yet to be settled, I'd suggest the 5 moderators of Z_Scale be the judges to select the MOTM. Do you "trust" the current moderators to be fair if this happened? Just in case this does happen, I'd suggest one more rule:

                                          *Moderators of Z_Scale can not enter the MOTM contest, nor may anyone submit entries on their behalf.

                                          Now that I got that out of my system, time to prepare for our Tri-State Z Scalers (NY, NJ, & CT) this Sat. Your feedback is welcome and appreciated. All Z BeZt,

                                          Michael Hilliard
                                          Wilton, CT USA





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