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Re: [Z_Scale] New Product Poll

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  • David George
    I voted yes in the poll,,,but I agree more with Don Avila s position. Mister Dave ... From: Don Avila To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com Cc: Don Avila Sent: Thursday,
    Message 1 of 22 , Aug 3, 2006
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      I voted yes in the poll,,,but I agree more with Don Avila's position.

      Mister Dave
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Don Avila
      To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
      Cc: Don Avila
      Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 1:53 PM
      Subject: RE: [Z_Scale] New Product Poll


      I voted "yes" [even though it is a loaded question], but what I would
      REALLY REALLY REALLY like to see are either laser cut panels or molded
      plastic panels like Walthers Cornerstone Modulars. Walthers will likely
      never in my lifetime make this in Z, but with some skillful planning
      these would be far nicer than cast buildings, and obviously you could do
      "almost anything" with the modulars.

      .don


      -----Original Message-----
      From: z_scale@yahoogroups.com [mailto:z_scale@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
      Of Joe DAmato
      Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 11:53 AM
      To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [Z_Scale] New Product Poll

      Hi all,

      I just posted a quickie poll, looking for numbers at this point to take
      to Marketing and Management. The question is wether or not you all are
      interested in haveing Injection Molded Structures for layouts or not.
      These would be like the Model Power series, in a box, already assembled
      and detailed and ready to install. Some structures would have lights,
      maybe some animation where necessary. These would be up to MTL
      standards and we would start with Line Side Structures. This is only a
      fact finding poll, nothing has been decided or even presented. I am
      working on expanding Z and think Structures is the next big thing to
      tackle. I need a lot of numbers here, so encourage everyone lurking to
      take the poll!

      thanks

      Joe


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • melissamusante
      Joe, This is a great idea... the other thing that I think we could really really use (and maybe someone who knows N here can help me out a little) are some of
      Message 2 of 22 , Aug 3, 2006
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        Joe,

        This is a great idea... the other thing that I think we could really
        really use (and maybe someone who knows N here can help
        me out a little) are some of those "kits" that are just the walls of
        buildings... they have them in N. They're injection molded.
        They're interchangable. So you can buy side walls, or the first
        three stories of a building and then there are a bunch of different
        styles of first three stories, and then the next three stories, again
        multiple styles of this group, and then you just paint 'em and
        glue em' and you have a semi custom building...

        And I think they're pretty cheap. And it seems like they're easy to
        customize.

        My biggest problem with the buildings that are available is the
        variety. Unless you want to get into those wonderful brass
        buildings there's just not much American and even the Volmer
        and Kibri are a pain to put together.

        So yeah, more pre-builts or easy to finish would be terrific!

        My 2 cents!

        Meilssa
      • dpstripe@aol.com
        Melissa, I know that DPM (Design Preservation Miniatures?)offers this type of product in N, and Walthers does in HO. They might both do both, I m not sure.
        Message 3 of 22 , Aug 3, 2006
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          Melissa,
          I know that DPM (Design Preservation Miniatures?)offers this type of product
          in N, and Walthers does in HO. They might both do both, I'm not sure.
          Dan S

          In a message dated 8/3/2006 5:32:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
          melissa@... writes:

          ... the other thing that I think we could really
          really use (and maybe someone who knows N here can help
          me out a little) are some of those "kits" that are just the walls of
          buildings... they have them in N. They're injection molded.
          They're interchangable. So you can buy side walls, or the first
          three stories of a building and then there are a bunch of different
          styles of first three stories, and then the next three stories, again
          multiple styles of this group, and then you just paint 'em and
          glue em' and you have a semi custom building...






          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Robert Ray
          I voted NO also, as I would prefer kits. I like to build and customize as I go, but a pre-fabricated structure would mean I have much more work to do to modify
          Message 4 of 22 , Aug 3, 2006
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            I voted NO also, as I would prefer kits. I like to build and customize
            as I go, but a pre-fabricated structure would mean I have much more
            work to do to modify walls, change around windows, etc.

            Now I might be persuaded to buy some water towers, as It will get
            monotonous building several of the same tower for placement at routine
            watering holes.

            What do I really want in structures??? You already know that I want a
            Z Scale answer to Design Preservation Models or Walthers Modulars for
            building a downtown of brick storefronts that can easily be
            customized, unlike brass where the kitbashing is much slower and
            difficult work.

            -Robert
          • John & Sue Bartolotto
            Robert, Old buddy, I ask that you change your vote to Yes . I look at this as a domino effect. If we can convince MTL to start producing building, pre-fabed
            Message 5 of 22 , Aug 3, 2006
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              Robert,



              Old buddy, I ask that you change your vote to "Yes". I look at this as a
              domino effect. If we can convince MTL to start producing building,
              pre-fabed or otherwise, it might prompt DPM and Walthers and others to
              re-think their strategy on Z scale and be enough to push them into the Z
              market. MLT would be a big name to get into the Z structure business,
              pre-fabed or not. I have contacted DPM and Walthers numerous times over the
              years and they are just not interested in producing in Z because they do not
              feel that the market is strong enough - it is, and rightly so, a financial
              decision on their part that they are not willing at this time to commit to.
              However, if MTL joins the fray then who knows what will follow.



              John



              _____

              From: z_scale@yahoogroups.com [mailto:z_scale@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
              Robert Ray
              Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 1:22 AM
              To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: New Product Poll



              I voted NO also, as I would prefer kits. I like to build and customize
              as I go, but a pre-fabricated structure would mean I have much more
              work to do to modify walls, change around windows, etc.

              Now I might be persuaded to buy some water towers, as It will get
              monotonous building several of the same tower for placement at routine
              watering holes.

              What do I really want in structures??? You already know that I want a
              Z Scale answer to Design Preservation Models or Walthers Modulars for
              building a downtown of brick storefronts that can easily be
              customized, unlike brass where the kitbashing is much slower and
              difficult work.

              -Robert





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • bobfage2000
              ... completed a G C Laser kit of there 5320 County CO-OP - 217 parts and I kit basjed the roof with redwood and that was an extra 36 parts.. took 15 hours
              Message 6 of 22 , Aug 4, 2006
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                --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "docker2524" <docker2524@...> wrote:
                >Oliver wants more! 'and a modern 6 axel locomotive ! I have just
                completed a G C Laser kit of there 5320 County CO-OP - 217 parts and
                I kit basjed the roof with redwood and that was an extra 36 parts..
                took 15 hours including painting. Nice item. I have also some of the
                Make my Models featured in the Ztrak Mag, nice items, but hard to
                paint.. the material does not like the paint even the recommend
                stuffand can make the material go soft. So I would want to see good
                quality items. But laser items are fine. Bob Fage (in the UK)


                > I prefer kits over prefabracated structures. Prefabs don't allow as
                > much kitbashing that I like to do. However, there is a great need
                for
                > American style houses. I would certainly buy some prefabbed
                American
                > houses and maybe some other structures. 'and a modern 6 axel
                locomotive
                > would be nice too...
                > s.com, "Joe DAmato" <shipsure2003@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi all,
                > >
                > > I just posted a quickie poll, looking for numbers at this point to
                > take
                > > to Marketing and Management. The question is wether or not you
                all are
                > > interested in haveing Injection Molded Structures for layouts or
                not.
                > > These would be like the Model Power series, in a box, already
                > assembled
                > > and detailed and ready to install. Some structures would have
                lights,
                > > maybe some animation where necessary. These would be up to MTL
                > > standards and we would start with Line Side Structures. This is
                only a
                > > fact finding poll, nothing has been decided or even presented. I
                am
                > > working on expanding Z and think Structures is the next big thing
                to
                > > tackle. I need a lot of numbers here, so encourage everyone
                lurking to
                > > take the poll!
                > >
                > > thanks
                > >
                > > Joe
                > >
                >
              • vincentgoudreault
                ... as a ... the Z ... (...) Sorry to barge in in what is after all a conversation that is not involving me, but isn t urging someone to reconsider their vote
                Message 7 of 22 , Aug 4, 2006
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                  --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "John & Sue Bartolotto" <jsbart@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Robert,
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Old buddy, I ask that you change your vote to "Yes". I look at this
                  as a
                  > domino effect. If we can convince MTL to start producing building,
                  > pre-fabed or otherwise, it might prompt DPM and Walthers and others to
                  > re-think their strategy on Z scale and be enough to push them into
                  the Z
                  > market. MLT would be a big name to get into the Z structure business,
                  > pre-fabed or not.

                  (...)

                  Sorry to barge in in what is after all a conversation that is not
                  involving me, but isn't urging someone to reconsider their vote on
                  account of building up a strategy that will ultimately possibly entice
                  currently non interested third parties to enter a marked
                  basically "tainting the data"?
                  I know most of us would vote "yes", but what if several people do vote
                  yes because they feel it is what other people want, but THEY would not
                  be interested personally? Then how valid is the pool? How reliable
                  would any subsequent pool be? How likely are we ever going to be asked
                  for our opinion and be taken seriously again if voting is altered by
                  spin doctors and lobbyists?

                  I'd say everyone should vote in good faith. We need MTL to have the
                  BEST possible data, or else they will risk failing in their endeavor,
                  and no one wants that. Integrity of data is of paramount importance.

                  And if you want a domino effect, let the third parties figure it out on
                  their own. They should have industrials strategists able to see the
                  big picture without us having to make up fake trends.


                  CBVG
                • Joe DAmato
                  Leave it to Robert Ray to turn an MTL question into a campaign to get someone else to produce kits ... :o) This is only the first step, we need folks in the
                  Message 8 of 22 , Aug 4, 2006
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                    Leave it to Robert Ray to turn an MTL question into a campaign to get
                    someone else to produce kits ... :o)

                    This is only the first step, we need folks in the hobby and the vast
                    majority of people in the model RR community do not own a layout. We
                    invested in the track system so those modelers could set something up
                    on the fly and enjoy running their trains. The structures are the
                    next step in adding to that table top world they have. These would
                    be MTL quality and be a welcome addition to anyones layout no matter
                    how skilled or dedicated you are. When you vote, think outside your
                    own abilities and capabilities. My job here at MTL, beyond taking
                    care of customers, designing new product, doing on going research,
                    maintaining the library, doing conversions, inventing new ways to get
                    Loren all worked up....is to grow the scales we service...HOn3, N,
                    NN3 and Z. I have to think in terms of a wider market and come up
                    with clever traps to draw in unsuspecting future modelers. At the
                    Philly show I heard model Railroaders described as Old Grey Haired
                    Guys...by an Old Grey Haired Guy...excusing that crude depiction,
                    it's somewhat accurate. We need young blood to put down the Video
                    Game Controller and Pick up a DCC Controller and the only way we are
                    going to do that is making it as easy as possible for them to do so.
                    Sorry for the RANT, but just wanted to be clear on what I was looking
                    for and I obviously failed in my first attempt. Thanks to Robert for
                    encouraging DPM to go into Z scale (no more free stuff for you!)
                    (kidding) and to John for waving the POM POMs for my poll.

                    Cheers

                    Joe

                    --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "John & Sue Bartolotto" <jsbart@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Robert,
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Old buddy, I ask that you change your vote to "Yes". I look at
                    this as a
                    > domino effect. If we can convince MTL to start producing building,
                    > pre-fabed or otherwise, it might prompt DPM and Walthers and others
                    to
                    > re-think their strategy on Z scale and be enough to push them into
                    the Z
                    > market. MLT would be a big name to get into the Z structure
                    business,
                    > pre-fabed or not. I have contacted DPM and Walthers numerous times
                    over the
                    > years and they are just not interested in producing in Z because
                    they do not
                    > feel that the market is strong enough - it is, and rightly so, a
                    financial
                    > decision on their part that they are not willing at this time to
                    commit to.
                    > However, if MTL joins the fray then who knows what will follow.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > John
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > _____
                    >
                    > From: z_scale@yahoogroups.com [mailto:z_scale@yahoogroups.com] On
                    Behalf Of
                    > Robert Ray
                    > Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 1:22 AM
                    > To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: New Product Poll
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I voted NO also, as I would prefer kits. I like to build and
                    customize
                    > as I go, but a pre-fabricated structure would mean I have much more
                    > work to do to modify walls, change around windows, etc.
                    >
                    > Now I might be persuaded to buy some water towers, as It will get
                    > monotonous building several of the same tower for placement at
                    routine
                    > watering holes.
                    >
                    > What do I really want in structures??? You already know that I want
                    a
                    > Z Scale answer to Design Preservation Models or Walthers Modulars
                    for
                    > building a downtown of brick storefronts that can easily be
                    > customized, unlike brass where the kitbashing is much slower and
                    > difficult work.
                    >
                    > -Robert
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • Don Avila
                    O.K. - How do you vote Yes TWICE ?? ... From: z_scale@yahoogroups.com [mailto:z_scale@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joe DAmato Sent: Friday, August 04,
                    Message 9 of 22 , Aug 4, 2006
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                      O.K. - How do you vote "Yes" TWICE ??

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: z_scale@yahoogroups.com [mailto:z_scale@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                      Of Joe DAmato
                      Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 10:27 AM
                      To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: New Product Poll

                      Leave it to Robert Ray to turn an MTL question into a campaign to get
                      someone else to produce kits ... :o)

                      This is only the first step, we need folks in the hobby and the vast
                      majority of people in the model RR community do not own a layout. We
                      invested in the track system so those modelers could set something up
                      on the fly and enjoy running their trains. The structures are the
                      next step in adding to that table top world they have. These would
                      be MTL quality and be a welcome addition to anyones layout no matter
                      how skilled or dedicated you are. When you vote, think outside your
                      own abilities and capabilities. My job here at MTL, beyond taking
                      care of customers, designing new product, doing on going research,
                      maintaining the library, doing conversions, inventing new ways to get
                      Loren all worked up....is to grow the scales we service...HOn3, N,
                      NN3 and Z. I have to think in terms of a wider market and come up
                      with clever traps to draw in unsuspecting future modelers. At the
                      Philly show I heard model Railroaders described as Old Grey Haired
                      Guys...by an Old Grey Haired Guy...excusing that crude depiction,
                      it's somewhat accurate. We need young blood to put down the Video
                      Game Controller and Pick up a DCC Controller and the only way we are
                      going to do that is making it as easy as possible for them to do so.
                      Sorry for the RANT, but just wanted to be clear on what I was looking
                      for and I obviously failed in my first attempt. Thanks to Robert for
                      encouraging DPM to go into Z scale (no more free stuff for you!)
                      (kidding) and to John for waving the POM POMs for my poll.

                      Cheers

                      Joe

                      --- In z_scale@yahoogroups <mailto:z_scale%40yahoogroups.com> .com,
                      "John & Sue Bartolotto" <jsbart@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > Robert,
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Old buddy, I ask that you change your vote to "Yes". I look at
                      this as a
                      > domino effect. If we can convince MTL to start producing building,
                      > pre-fabed or otherwise, it might prompt DPM and Walthers and others
                      to
                      > re-think their strategy on Z scale and be enough to push them into
                      the Z
                      > market. MLT would be a big name to get into the Z structure
                      business,
                      > pre-fabed or not. I have contacted DPM and Walthers numerous times
                      over the
                      > years and they are just not interested in producing in Z because
                      they do not
                      > feel that the market is strong enough - it is, and rightly so, a
                      financial
                      > decision on their part that they are not willing at this time to
                      commit to.
                      > However, if MTL joins the fray then who knows what will follow.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > John
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > _____
                      >
                      > From: z_scale@yahoogroups <mailto:z_scale%40yahoogroups.com> .com
                      [mailto:z_scale@yahoogroups <mailto:z_scale%40yahoogroups.com> .com] On
                      Behalf Of
                      > Robert Ray
                      > Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 1:22 AM
                      > To: z_scale@yahoogroups <mailto:z_scale%40yahoogroups.com> .com
                      > Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: New Product Poll
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I voted NO also, as I would prefer kits. I like to build and
                      customize
                      > as I go, but a pre-fabricated structure would mean I have much more
                      > work to do to modify walls, change around windows, etc.
                      >
                      > Now I might be persuaded to buy some water towers, as It will get
                      > monotonous building several of the same tower for placement at
                      routine
                      > watering holes.
                      >
                      > What do I really want in structures??? You already know that I want
                      a
                      > Z Scale answer to Design Preservation Models or Walthers Modulars
                      for
                      > building a downtown of brick storefronts that can easily be
                      > customized, unlike brass where the kitbashing is much slower and
                      > difficult work.
                      >
                      > -Robert
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Alan Cox
                      ... Is the info useful anyway. Yes I d like more buildings, I d like more buildings, more rolling stock, more locomotives, more detail kits, more trackwork,
                      Message 10 of 22 , Aug 4, 2006
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                        Ar Gwe, 2006-08-04 am 14:07 +0000, ysgrifennodd vincentgoudreault:

                        > BEST possible data, or else they will risk failing in their endeavor,
                        > and no one wants that. Integrity of data is of paramount importance.
                        >

                        Is the info useful anyway. Yes I'd like more buildings, I'd like more
                        buildings, more rolling stock, more locomotives, more detail kits, more
                        trackwork, lower prices, more UK availability, ...

                        Wouldn't we all.

                        Serious marketing surveys generally ask questions like 'rate the
                        importance of', so that you can tell what things matter the most.


                        Its also important with Z and buildings not to overlook the power of the
                        colour photoprinter. The depth of texture in Z for many things like
                        mortar is so close to zero it doesn't matter and that makes a lot of
                        plasticard and texture printed surfaces work rather well, unlike in
                        HO/OO where the lack of depth actually has an impact.

                        Alan
                      • Alan Cox
                        ... I d take issue with easy and replace it with immediate . I m not sure Z and smaller children are a good mix. HO/OO is at least harder to chew or bite
                        Message 11 of 22 , Aug 4, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Ar Gwe, 2006-08-04 am 14:26 +0000, ysgrifennodd Joe DAmato:

                          > with clever traps to draw in unsuspecting future modelers. At the
                          > Philly show I heard model Railroaders described as Old Grey Haired
                          > Guys...by an Old Grey Haired Guy...excusing that crude depiction,
                          > it's somewhat accurate. We need young blood to put down the Video
                          > Game Controller and Pick up a DCC Controller and the only way we are
                          > going to do that is making it as easy as possible for them to do so.

                          I'd take issue with "easy" and replace it with "immediate". I'm not sure
                          Z and smaller children are a good mix. HO/OO is at least harder to chew
                          or bite bits off. Mind you childrens N has been done in Japan by Tomix
                          (Thomas the tank engine etc).

                          If the video game controller is your challenge then you have to compete
                          with simulations like BVE and figure out what you offer that is
                          different.

                          I am suprised that nobody does a cheap non-DCC USB controller and
                          software for PC systems. For DCC it sort of exists (Sprog II) and the
                          software is there.

                          In N the working multimodal crane by Brawa certainly causes a stare or
                          two when people meet it at shows.

                          Alan

                          >
                        • Rick Saviano
                          Haven t you heard of Chicago style politics? Vote early, vote often! -Rick Saviano
                          Message 12 of 22 , Aug 4, 2006
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                            Haven't you heard of Chicago style politics? "Vote early, vote often!"

                            -Rick Saviano

                            Don Avila wrote:

                            > O.K. - How do you vote "Yes" TWICE ??
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: z_scale@yahoogroups.com [mailto:z_scale@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                            > Of Joe DAmato
                            > Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 10:27 AM
                            > To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: New Product Poll
                            >
                            > Leave it to Robert Ray to turn an MTL question into a campaign to get
                            > someone else to produce kits ... :o)
                            >
                            > This is only the first step, we need folks in the hobby and the vast
                            > majority of people in the model RR community do not own a layout. We
                            > invested in the track system so those modelers could set something up
                            > on the fly and enjoy running their trains. The structures are the
                            > next step in adding to that table top world they have. These would
                            > be MTL quality and be a welcome addition to anyones layout no matter
                            > how skilled or dedicated you are. When you vote, think outside your
                            > own abilities and capabilities. My job here at MTL, beyond taking
                            > care of customers, designing new product, doing on going research,
                            > maintaining the library, doing conversions, inventing new ways to get
                            > Loren all worked up....is to grow the scales we service...HOn3, N,
                            > NN3 and Z. I have to think in terms of a wider market and come up
                            > with clever traps to draw in unsuspecting future modelers. At the
                            > Philly show I heard model Railroaders described as Old Grey Haired
                            > Guys...by an Old Grey Haired Guy...excusing that crude depiction,
                            > it's somewhat accurate. We need young blood to put down the Video
                            > Game Controller and Pick up a DCC Controller and the only way we are
                            > going to do that is making it as easy as possible for them to do so.
                            > Sorry for the RANT, but just wanted to be clear on what I was looking
                            > for and I obviously failed in my first attempt. Thanks to Robert for
                            > encouraging DPM to go into Z scale (no more free stuff for you!)
                            > (kidding) and to John for waving the POM POMs for my poll.
                            >
                            > Cheers
                            >
                            > Joe
                            >
                            > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups <mailto:z_scale%40yahoogroups.com> .com,
                            > "John & Sue Bartolotto" <jsbart@...>
                            > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Robert,
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Old buddy, I ask that you change your vote to "Yes". I look at
                            > this as a
                            > > domino effect. If we can convince MTL to start producing building,
                            > > pre-fabed or otherwise, it might prompt DPM and Walthers and others
                            > to
                            > > re-think their strategy on Z scale and be enough to push them into
                            > the Z
                            > > market. MLT would be a big name to get into the Z structure
                            > business,
                            > > pre-fabed or not. I have contacted DPM and Walthers numerous times
                            > over the
                            > > years and they are just not interested in producing in Z because
                            > they do not
                            > > feel that the market is strong enough - it is, and rightly so, a
                            > financial
                            > > decision on their part that they are not willing at this time to
                            > commit to.
                            > > However, if MTL joins the fray then who knows what will follow.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > John
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > _____
                            > >
                            > > From: z_scale@yahoogroups <mailto:z_scale%40yahoogroups.com> .com
                            > [mailto:z_scale@yahoogroups <mailto:z_scale%40yahoogroups.com> .com] On
                            > Behalf Of
                            > > Robert Ray
                            > > Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 1:22 AM
                            > > To: z_scale@yahoogroups <mailto:z_scale%40yahoogroups.com> .com
                            > > Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: New Product Poll
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > I voted NO also, as I would prefer kits. I like to build and
                            > customize
                            > > as I go, but a pre-fabricated structure would mean I have much more
                            > > work to do to modify walls, change around windows, etc.
                            > >
                            > > Now I might be persuaded to buy some water towers, as It will get
                            > > monotonous building several of the same tower for placement at
                            > routine
                            > > watering holes.
                            > >
                            > > What do I really want in structures??? You already know that I want
                            > a
                            > > Z Scale answer to Design Preservation Models or Walthers Modulars
                            > for
                            > > building a downtown of brick storefronts that can easily be
                            > > customized, unlike brass where the kitbashing is much slower and
                            > > difficult work.
                            > >
                            > > -Robert
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            > Z-scale: minimum siZe, MAXIMUM enjoyment!
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • randy smidt
                            Wow, we ve seen some great comments on this thread started by MTL s probing of interest in Z scale structures. I think we need to ask some more questions and
                            Message 13 of 22 , Aug 4, 2006
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                              Wow, we've seen some great comments on this thread started by MTL's probing of interest in Z scale structures.

                              I think we need to ask some more questions and maybe give some additional ideas.

                              What is the goal for all of us? Do we want more goodies to use in our modeling? Do we want lower prices? Do we want to bring more people in to Z scale? Do we want to encourage more begining model railroaders to try Z? Do we want to try to get more active model railroaders from larger scales to convert to Z?

                              Personally, I would say "yes" to all of these questions. But how to we get the answer of "yes" to become reality?

                              My opinion (and yes it is an opinion) on what the plan should be follows:

                              Start with beginning model railroaders, not necessarily children, but they are most definitely welcome. It seems that many folks starting out in model railroading in general today are actually folks returning to model railroading as adults after having them as kids. They in turn introduce their kids and grandkids and it can become a family activity. This formula has been hugely succesful for Lionel and MTH.

                              What is needed for beginners:
                              1. Reliable, Ready to run starter sets (including track and some kind of speed controller, be it battery powered, transformer, or wallwart compatible). Get off to a quick, easy start and keep the frustration level to a minimum.
                              2. complete sectional track system using modern technology (MTL is diligently working on this)
                              3. Fun accessories to do more than run trains in a circle. Animation is always a HUGE draw at train shows no matter what scale it is. Ready to run structures from MTL could be a part of these, and I would agree with Reynard that animation or some kind of action will be a big draw. Matel called this "play value". Whether it is a toy or a model, we all play with our toys and if you want to get to the next level you have to hook them first.


                              After they are hooked, encourage them to keep going on to the intermediate level:
                              1. Information clearing house for who/what/where/when and most importantly HOW to model in Z scale. This is multifaceted here on this list and other internet forums, ZTrack magazine, growing interest from general interest model railroading press, public events like trains shows and open houses, and perhaps through traditional media like that Z scale Primer/handbook that a few of us have discussed before and basic information handouts that some of us are working on developing.
                              2. longer MTL flex track. PECO and Marklin flex is longer, but not built to North American (or as someone recently pointed out, modern European mainline) tie spacings. (I won't discuss turnouts here, sinc eMTL is already working on them).
                              3. more locos and rolling stock available at affordable prices (we are definitely making progress here, already)
                              4. Reliable steam locomotives of North American prototypes
                              5. more basic accessories like DPM style structure kits, injection molded plastic bridges, more variety of figures, more vehicles, etc.


                              Then, ultimately, if hard core, boderline rivet counting, fanatical modeling appeals to you, go for the best you can:

                              1. code 40 track products as well as code 55 turnouts with different geometries than basic Marklin standard track geometry.
                              2. high end, short run, museum quaility showpiece models
                              3. Z specific scenery materials, like fine ballast, etc.
                              4. More Zm/Zn3 product (yes, I want narrow gauge steam, if just to blow some minds of other model railroaders in larger scales)
                              5. Publicity of extreme model railroading

                              Which brings more attention and credibility back to the scale and gets people interested to begin with. The circle comes back the full way around back to the beginning.

                              Again, this is my opinion. What do you all think?

                              Also, although my chosen scale is Z, bringing attention to model railroading in general will help the cause as a whole.

                              The reason I am still in Z scale today is the Z scale community. If I had not discovered it early on, I would not have made it through the difficulties of getting started in Z scale and stuck it out to where I am today (even though I still have a long way to go).

                              Thanks,
                              Randy Smidt


                              Reynard Wellman <micron@...> wrote:
                              Hi Joe,
                              Like I indicated in a previous note, the most important
                              thing MTL is presently contributing is in the prospect,
                              at least, of offering good reliable track and turnouts for
                              the "operations" facet of Z model railroading.

                              If we want to attract the upcoming generations to trains and
                              thus to model railroading, they should see trains in operation.
                              I've been to plenty of club layouts where nothing but a distant slow
                              moving train was occasionally running, since most of the
                              layout was still "under track construction" and most of the kids
                              were bored silly. In contrast I've seen trains shows where the
                              biggest crowds of adults and kids hung around the Lionel layouts with
                              multiple trains running at different speeds, mouths agape at the
                              flashing crossing signals, milk and ice loading stations, sounds
                              and smoke. Many of the Lionel structures are tin-plate, not
                              exactly "to scale" and almost cartoonish in appearance, but
                              people love them for their liveliness, not their static realism.

                              Please keep MTL focused on this animation aspect of
                              model railroading. How about a working cattle loader?
                              A coal tower with a working chute filled with harmless
                              plastic coal (of course this would require that steam
                              tenders be designed to hold these beads)? An ice house
                              with ice blocks sliding down a ramp into a refer?
                              Not only would this stuff be cute, it would bring far more
                              teenagers into model railroading that another series of
                              boxcars with the 12 Days of Xmas printed on the sides.

                              Warm regardZ to all &
                              thanks, you guys are doing a great job with your new track!

                              Reynard
                              On Aug 4, 2006, at 7:26 AM, Joe DAmato wrote:
                              <edited for length>
                              > Philly show I heard model Railroaders described as Old Grey Haired
                              > Guys...by an Old Grey Haired Guy...excusing that crude depiction,
                              > it's somewhat accurate. We need young blood to put down the Video
                              > Game Controller and Pick up a DCC Controller and the only way we are
                              > going to do that is making it as easy as possible for them to do so.
                              > Sorry for the RANT, but just wanted to be clear on what I was looking
                              > for and I obviously failed in my first attempt. Thanks to Robert for
                              > encouraging DPM to go into Z scale (no more free stuff for you!)
                              > (kidding) and to John for waving the POM POMs for my poll.
                              >
                              > Cheers
                              >
                              > Joe
                              > At the

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Reynard Wellman
                              Hi Joe, Like I indicated in a previous note, the most important thing MTL is presently contributing is in the prospect, at least, of offering good reliable
                              Message 14 of 22 , Aug 4, 2006
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                                Hi Joe,
                                Like I indicated in a previous note, the most important
                                thing MTL is presently contributing is in the prospect,
                                at least, of offering good reliable track and turnouts for
                                the "operations" facet of Z model railroading.

                                If we want to attract the upcoming generations to trains and
                                thus to model railroading, they should see trains in operation.
                                I've been to plenty of club layouts where nothing but a distant slow
                                moving train was occasionally running, since most of the
                                layout was still "under track construction" and most of the kids
                                were bored silly. In contrast I've seen trains shows where the
                                biggest crowds of adults and kids hung around the Lionel layouts with
                                multiple trains running at different speeds, mouths agape at the
                                flashing crossing signals, milk and ice loading stations, sounds
                                and smoke. Many of the Lionel structures are tin-plate, not
                                exactly "to scale" and almost cartoonish in appearance, but
                                people love them for their liveliness, not their static realism.

                                Please keep MTL focused on this animation aspect of
                                model railroading. How about a working cattle loader?
                                A coal tower with a working chute filled with harmless
                                plastic coal (of course this would require that steam
                                tenders be designed to hold these beads)? An ice house
                                with ice blocks sliding down a ramp into a refer?
                                Not only would this stuff be cute, it would bring far more
                                teenagers into model railroading that another series of
                                boxcars with the 12 Days of Xmas printed on the sides.

                                Warm regardZ to all &
                                thanks, you guys are doing a great job with your new track!

                                Reynard
                                On Aug 4, 2006, at 7:26 AM, Joe DAmato wrote:
                                <edited for length>
                                > Philly show I heard model Railroaders described as Old Grey Haired
                                > Guys...by an Old Grey Haired Guy...excusing that crude depiction,
                                > it's somewhat accurate. We need young blood to put down the Video
                                > Game Controller and Pick up a DCC Controller and the only way we are
                                > going to do that is making it as easy as possible for them to do so.
                                > Sorry for the RANT, but just wanted to be clear on what I was looking
                                > for and I obviously failed in my first attempt. Thanks to Robert for
                                > encouraging DPM to go into Z scale (no more free stuff for you!)
                                > (kidding) and to John for waving the POM POMs for my poll.
                                >
                                > Cheers
                                >
                                > Joe
                                > At the



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Alan Cox
                                ... Marklin does some of this - working crossings, traversers, turntables, signals/lighting and even block occupancy setups that are fairly easy to plug
                                Message 15 of 22 , Aug 4, 2006
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                                  Ar Gwe, 2006-08-04 am 10:06 -0700, ysgrifennodd randy smidt:
                                  > 3. Fun accessories to do more than run trains in a circle. Animation
                                  > is always a HUGE draw at train shows no matter what scale it is. Ready
                                  > to run structures from MTL could be a part of these, and I would agree
                                  > with Reynard that animation or some kind of action will be a big draw.
                                  > Matel called this "play value". Whether it is a toy or a model, we all
                                  > play with our toys and if you want to get to the next level you have
                                  > to hook them first.

                                  Marklin does some of this - working crossings, traversers, turntables,
                                  signals/lighting and even block occupancy setups that are fairly easy to
                                  plug together for great results. Pity about the prices sometimes but the
                                  products are well thought out.
                                  >
                                  > Z scale Primer/handbook that a few of us have discussed before and
                                  basic information handouts that some of us are working on developing.

                                  Definitely, and also information of the form "Moving to Z, a guide for
                                  HO enthusiasts" for those who know their stuff but don't know what lurks
                                  in Z world (good, bad and just different).

                                  Stock listings can also be useful so people know what is available, from
                                  whom and in what livery.

                                  > 5. more basic accessories like DPM style structure kits, injection
                                  > molded plastic bridges, more variety of figures, more vehicles, etc.

                                  If you want children it also wants to be snap-fit kits or easy to
                                  assemble from my experience. The "I made it" factor seems to be very
                                  important in model railways however large or small you are. Japanese
                                  manufacturers seem to have gotten collectable ranges of snap together
                                  models with easy to add decals down to a fine art, and then arranged
                                  that you can do more interesting things by combining them.

                                  Alan
                                • de Champeaux Dominique
                                  Hi Joe, myself I prefer kits for structures.... Dominique ... ___________________________________________________________________________ Découvrez un nouveau
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Aug 6, 2006
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                                    Hi Joe, myself I prefer kits for structures....
                                    Dominique



                                    --- Joe DAmato <shipsure2003@...> a écrit :

                                    > Hi all,
                                    >
                                    > I just posted a quickie poll, looking for numbers at
                                    > this point to take
                                    > to Marketing and Management. The question is wether
                                    > or not you all are
                                    > interested in haveing Injection Molded Structures
                                    > for layouts or not.
                                    > These would be like the Model Power series, in a
                                    > box, already assembled
                                    > and detailed and ready to install. Some structures
                                    > would have lights,
                                    > maybe some animation where necessary. These would
                                    > be up to MTL
                                    > standards and we would start with Line Side
                                    > Structures. This is only a
                                    > fact finding poll, nothing has been decided or even
                                    > presented. I am
                                    > working on expanding Z and think Structures is the
                                    > next big thing to
                                    > tackle. I need a lot of numbers here, so encourage
                                    > everyone lurking to
                                    > take the poll!
                                    >
                                    > thanks
                                    >
                                    > Joe
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >







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