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Re: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS

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  • Alan Cox
    ... It needs to be complete. Thats something Marklin got figured out right. Controller, wires, instructions, track, train and in some cases even scenery kits.
    Message 1 of 26 , Aug 2, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      Ar Mer, 2006-08-02 am 05:52 +0000, ysgrifennodd choirguydotcom:

      > Perhaps a better plan would be a discount coupon towards the purchase
      > of a power pack, either for the store carrying the product, or
      > directly from Micro-Trains.

      It needs to be complete. Thats something Marklin got figured out right.
      Controller, wires, instructions, track, train and in some cases even
      scenery kits. People will be wary of coupons and it will not work for
      presents because they don't want to inflict the ordering hassle on
      others.

      The controller doesn't have to be *good*, it doesn't have to be bulky
      and it doesn't even need to be mains powered. It does need to meet the
      "assemble and it works" requirement. A little 9v battery controller,
      with a few speed settings is quite sufficient. It will survive christmas
      or birthday day and the rest will follow.

      A coupon for a matching wall-wart for when they get annoyed by the
      battery might well work.

      <Cynical MBA mode on>
      In fact there is a good chance people with a battery controller and
      coupon will pay *more* for their add-on wall wart than at the local
      superstore and do so willingly to be sure its compatible. At that point
      the coupon is actually a business opportunity in itself.
      </Cyncial MBA mode off>

      Alan
    • HermannZFriends
      There s one point missing in all discussions up to now: At the moment MTL is just responsable for their tracks, Locos and cars ... If they really add a
      Message 2 of 26 , Aug 3, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        There's one point missing in all discussions up to now:

        At the moment MTL is just responsable for their tracks, Locos and cars ...

        If they really add a powerpack, they will not only have higher costs due to the power pack .. but they will also be responsable for any possible electrical danger !

        I think, that's also one of the reasons, Joerger ( Jeremy ) offer their throttle ( ?speed contoller ? ) without any power pack and only mention the 9V Batteries in their description!

        Read once the new maerklin Z brochure ( Jahrbuch ) - due to new EC laws they will discontinue the current Transformerspeedcontrollers ... and with the new starter sets the controller will be delivered with seperate a wall mount Transformer !

        Especially in the US where u even are responsable for a hot cup of coffee and u have to pay millions of bucks if the coffee is too hot, might be that it ' s just too dangerous .. to sell starter sets with power packs !

        rgds

        Hermann







        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Alan Cox
        To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 5:09 PM
        Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS


        Ar Mer, 2006-08-02 am 05:52 +0000, ysgrifennodd choirguydotcom:

        > Perhaps a better plan would be a discount coupon towards the purchase
        > of a power pack, either for the store carrying the product, or
        > directly from Micro-Trains.

        It needs to be complete. Thats something Marklin got figured out right.
        Controller, wires, instructions, track, train and in some cases even
        scenery kits. People will be wary of coupons and it will not work for
        presents because they don't want to inflict the ordering hassle on
        others.

        The controller doesn't have to be *good*, it doesn't have to be bulky
        and it doesn't even need to be mains powered. It does need to meet the
        "assemble and it works" requirement. A little 9v battery controller,
        with a few speed settings is quite sufficient. It will survive christmas
        or birthday day and the rest will follow.

        A coupon for a matching wall-wart for when they get annoyed by the
        battery might well work.

        <Cynical MBA mode on>
        In fact there is a good chance people with a battery controller and
        coupon will pay *more* for their add-on wall wart than at the local
        superstore and do so willingly to be sure its compatible. At that point
        the coupon is actually a business opportunity in itself.
        </Cyncial MBA mode off>

        Alan






        ------------------------------------------------------------------------------


        No virus found in this incoming message.
        Checked by AVG Free Edition.
        Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/405 - Release Date: 01.08.2006


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • bobfage2000
        ... their throttle ( ?speed contoller ? ) without any power pack and only mention the 9V Batteries in their description! ... power unit of sorts.. it allows
        Message 3 of 26 , Aug 3, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "HermannZFriends" <hermannfb@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > There's one point missing in all discussions up to now:
          >
          >>
          > I think, that's also one of the reasons, Joerger ( Jeremy ) offer
          their throttle ( ?speed contoller ? ) without any power pack and only
          mention the 9V Batteries in their description!
          >
          >> Hermann
          >
          >
          >
          > I think you are wrong Herman..... Jeremy Brandon does supply a
          power unit of sorts.. it allows his controllers to go from a mains
          power step down to the 9 volts.. I have one.. I also have supplied
          them to Australia to friends. Ok it is not directly plugged intot he
          wall, but it is still much more than a battery and would have all the
          implications of EEC law (I am a UK lawyer)... While we in the UK do
          not have the same problems legally wise as the USA, we are not that
          far behind. Bob Fage (in the UK)
          >
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Alan Cox
          > To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 5:09 PM
          > Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS
          >
          >
          > Ar Mer, 2006-08-02 am 05:52 +0000, ysgrifennodd choirguydotcom:
          >
          > > Perhaps a better plan would be a discount coupon towards the
          purchase
          > > of a power pack, either for the store carrying the product, or
          > > directly from Micro-Trains.
          >
          > It needs to be complete. Thats something Marklin got figured out
          right.
          > Controller, wires, instructions, track, train and in some cases
          even
          > scenery kits. People will be wary of coupons and it will not work
          for
          > presents because they don't want to inflict the ordering hassle on
          > others.
          >
          > The controller doesn't have to be *good*, it doesn't have to be
          bulky
          > and it doesn't even need to be mains powered. It does need to
          meet the
          > "assemble and it works" requirement. A little 9v battery
          controller,
          > with a few speed settings is quite sufficient. It will survive
          christmas
          > or birthday day and the rest will follow.
          >
          > A coupon for a matching wall-wart for when they get annoyed by the
          > battery might well work.
          >
          > <Cynical MBA mode on>
          > In fact there is a good chance people with a battery controller
          and
          > coupon will pay *more* for their add-on wall wart than at the
          local
          > superstore and do so willingly to be sure its compatible. At that
          point
          > the coupon is actually a business opportunity in itself.
          > </Cyncial MBA mode off>
          >
          > Alan
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --------------------------------------------------------------------
          ----------
          >
          >
          > No virus found in this incoming message.
          > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
          > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/405 - Release Date:
          01.08.2006
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • HermannZFriends
          Dear Bob, let me tell you as a former collegue ... it makes a difference ... if you sell powerpack and controller as a unit or as package ... or if you sell a
          Message 4 of 26 , Aug 3, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            Dear Bob,

            let me tell you as a former collegue ...
            it makes a difference ... if you sell powerpack and controller as a unit or as package ... or if you sell a controller and as well a transformer ( whatever you will do with that transformer ) because the customer is responsible for what he will do with the seperate purchased transformer .... and not You !

            :-)))) Hermann




            ----- Original Message -----
            From: bobfage2000
            To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 5:46 PM
            Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS


            --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "HermannZFriends" <hermannfb@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > There's one point missing in all discussions up to now:
            >
            >>
            > I think, that's also one of the reasons, Joerger ( Jeremy ) offer
            their throttle ( ?speed contoller ? ) without any power pack and only
            mention the 9V Batteries in their description!
            >
            >> Hermann
            >
            >
            >
            > I think you are wrong Herman..... Jeremy Brandon does supply a
            power unit of sorts.. it allows his controllers to go from a mains
            power step down to the 9 volts.. I have one.. I also have supplied
            them to Australia to friends. Ok it is not directly plugged intot he
            wall, but it is still much more than a battery and would have all the
            implications of EEC law (I am a UK lawyer)... While we in the UK do
            not have the same problems legally wise as the USA, we are not that
            far behind. Bob Fage (in the UK)
            >
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Alan Cox
            > To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 5:09 PM
            > Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS
            >
            >
            > Ar Mer, 2006-08-02 am 05:52 +0000, ysgrifennodd choirguydotcom:
            >
            > > Perhaps a better plan would be a discount coupon towards the
            purchase
            > > of a power pack, either for the store carrying the product, or
            > > directly from Micro-Trains.
            >
            > It needs to be complete. Thats something Marklin got figured out
            right.
            > Controller, wires, instructions, track, train and in some cases
            even
            > scenery kits. People will be wary of coupons and it will not work
            for
            > presents because they don't want to inflict the ordering hassle on
            > others.
            >
            > The controller doesn't have to be *good*, it doesn't have to be
            bulky
            > and it doesn't even need to be mains powered. It does need to
            meet the
            > "assemble and it works" requirement. A little 9v battery
            controller,
            > with a few speed settings is quite sufficient. It will survive
            christmas
            > or birthday day and the rest will follow.
            >
            > A coupon for a matching wall-wart for when they get annoyed by the
            > battery might well work.
            >
            > <Cynical MBA mode on>
            > In fact there is a good chance people with a battery controller
            and
            > coupon will pay *more* for their add-on wall wart than at the
            local
            > superstore and do so willingly to be sure its compatible. At that
            point
            > the coupon is actually a business opportunity in itself.
            > </Cyncial MBA mode off>
            >
            > Alan
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ----------------------------------------------------------
            ----------
            >
            >
            > No virus found in this incoming message.
            > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
            > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/405 - Release Date:
            01.08.2006
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >






            ------------------------------------------------------------------------------


            No virus found in this incoming message.
            Checked by AVG Free Edition.
            Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/406 - Release Date: 02.08.2006


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Alan Cox
            ... For the EU a product that is sold commercially should have an EC mark on it meaning it meets relevant safety standards, even if imported. It must also meet
            Message 5 of 26 , Aug 3, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              Ar Iau, 2006-08-03 am 15:46 +0000, ysgrifennodd bobfage2000:
              > > I think you are wrong Herman..... Jeremy Brandon does supply a
              > power unit of sorts.. it allows his controllers to go from a mains
              > power step down to the 9 volts.. I have one.. I also have supplied
              > them to Australia to friends. Ok it is not directly plugged intot he
              > wall, but it is still much more than a battery and would have all the
              > implications of EEC law (I am a UK lawyer)... While we in the UK do

              For the EU a product that is sold commercially should have an EC mark on
              it meaning it meets relevant safety standards, even if imported. It must
              also meet standards of materials and recyclability. These are all much
              like FCC approval and so forth in the USA.

              A device which is mains powered and contains an internal mains
              transformer has to meet a set of tests that are far more stringent than
              those with a 9v battery (for reasons I'd hope are obvious). That makes
              it more cost effective - as with US safety regulations - to use an
              external ready tested mass market wall-wart than build your own for low
              volume product.

              This has been noticable very recently because the recycling rules now
              ban most lead solder in commercial electrical appliance (we like our
              children smart not dumb) and with that forcing some vendors to
              redesign/recertify old polluting products they chose to go the wallwart
              path.

              MTL will already be having to meet a suprisingly large number of safety
              rules for the locomotives, the plastics used, the paint and so forth.

              > not have the same problems legally wise as the USA, we are not that
              > far behind. Bob Fage (in the UK)

              We only think that, the statistics put us thankfully well behind. I just
              wish the politicians would stop trying to catch up.
            • Don Avila
              Hermann; After spending over 40 years in the courtrooms throughout North America including all 50 of the United States and many locations in Canada plus many
              Message 6 of 26 , Aug 3, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                Hermann;

                After spending over 40 years in the courtrooms throughout North America
                including all 50 of the United States and many locations in Canada plus
                many other foreign countries, I must respectively disagree with you that
                the customer is responsible for himself. I agree it SHOULD be that way,
                but United States is a very litigious society, and jury results sometime
                border along the line of insanity.

                .don

                -----Original Message-----
                From: z_scale@yahoogroups.com [mailto:z_scale@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                Of HermannZFriends
                Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 12:28 PM
                To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS

                Dear Bob,

                let me tell you as a former collegue ...
                it makes a difference ... if you sell powerpack and controller as a unit
                or as package ... or if you sell a controller and as well a transformer
                ( whatever you will do with that transformer ) because the customer is
                responsible for what he will do with the seperate purchased transformer
                .... and not You !

                :-)))) Hermann

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: bobfage2000
                To: z_scale@yahoogroups <mailto:z_scale%40yahoogroups.com> .com
                Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 5:46 PM
                Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS

                --- In z_scale@yahoogroups <mailto:z_scale%40yahoogroups.com> .com,
                "HermannZFriends" <hermannfb@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > There's one point missing in all discussions up to now:
                >
                >>
                > I think, that's also one of the reasons, Joerger ( Jeremy ) offer
                their throttle ( ?speed contoller ? ) without any power pack and only
                mention the 9V Batteries in their description!
                >
                >> Hermann
                >
                >
                >
                > I think you are wrong Herman..... Jeremy Brandon does supply a
                power unit of sorts.. it allows his controllers to go from a mains
                power step down to the 9 volts.. I have one.. I also have supplied
                them to Australia to friends. Ok it is not directly plugged intot he
                wall, but it is still much more than a battery and would have all the
                implications of EEC law (I am a UK lawyer)... While we in the UK do
                not have the same problems legally wise as the USA, we are not that
                far behind. Bob Fage (in the UK)
                >
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: Alan Cox
                > To: z_scale@yahoogroups <mailto:z_scale%40yahoogroups.com> .com
                > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 5:09 PM
                > Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS
                >
                >
                > Ar Mer, 2006-08-02 am 05:52 +0000, ysgrifennodd choirguydotcom:
                >
                > > Perhaps a better plan would be a discount coupon towards the
                purchase
                > > of a power pack, either for the store carrying the product, or
                > > directly from Micro-Trains.
                >
                > It needs to be complete. Thats something Marklin got figured out
                right.
                > Controller, wires, instructions, track, train and in some cases
                even
                > scenery kits. People will be wary of coupons and it will not work
                for
                > presents because they don't want to inflict the ordering hassle on
                > others.
                >
                > The controller doesn't have to be *good*, it doesn't have to be
                bulky
                > and it doesn't even need to be mains powered. It does need to
                meet the
                > "assemble and it works" requirement. A little 9v battery
                controller,
                > with a few speed settings is quite sufficient. It will survive
                christmas
                > or birthday day and the rest will follow.
                >
                > A coupon for a matching wall-wart for when they get annoyed by the
                > battery might well work.
                >
                > <Cynical MBA mode on>
                > In fact there is a good chance people with a battery controller
                and
                > coupon will pay *more* for their add-on wall wart than at the
                local
                > superstore and do so willingly to be sure its compatible. At that
                point
                > the coupon is actually a business opportunity in itself.
                > </Cyncial MBA mode off>
                >
                > Alan
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ----------------------------------------------------------
                ----------
                >
                >
                > No virus found in this incoming message.
                > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/405 - Release Date:
                01.08.2006
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >

                ----------------------------------------------------------

                No virus found in this incoming message.
                Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/406 - Release Date:
                02.08.2006

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • de Champeaux Dominique
                ... BTW, I remember my first HO french prototype train set when I was 7. None of that now defunct manufacturer s starter set was sold with a power pack....The
                Message 7 of 26 , Aug 3, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  > I asked him "If
                  > Microtrains packaged a power pack in their
                  > starter sets, would that help your sales?" He said
                  > "Oh yeah -- every week I have people in
                  > condos and apartments looking at Mictotrains Z sets
                  > but they don't buy because they'd
                  > have to spend $50 to $100 on a power pack too". I
                  > know we've hashed this out on the list,
                  > but I wanted to write it so that if Joe read it, he
                  > could add it to his "empirical" collection of
                  > data for use in marketing and product planning.
                  >
                  > Russ Meier
                  > Milwaukee, WI
                  > MILW, UP, and CP in Z.



                  BTW, I remember my first HO french prototype train set
                  when I was 7. None of that now defunct manufacturer's
                  starter set was sold with a power pack....The power
                  packs always were a different feature.....

                  Dominique






                  ___________________________________________________________________________
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                • HFB Z friends
                  Don ... so you agree to my arguments, that there s a difference in responsability between selling controllers and selling transformers ...as well or
                  Message 8 of 26 , Aug 3, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Don ...

                    so you agree to my arguments, that there's a difference in responsability
                    between
                    selling controllers and selling transformers ...as well
                    or selling a package of controller and transformer as a unit ??

                    You know, I do not speak about international markets but about the growing
                    US market !

                    Hermann


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Don Avila" <d.f.avila@...>
                    To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                    Cc: "Don Avila" <d.f.avila@...>
                    Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 8:58 PM
                    Subject: RE: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS


                    |
                    | Hermann;
                    |
                    | After spending over 40 years in the courtrooms throughout North America
                    | including all 50 of the United States and many locations in Canada plus
                    | many other foreign countries, I must respectively disagree with you that
                    | the customer is responsible for himself. I agree it SHOULD be that way,
                    | but United States is a very litigious society, and jury results sometime
                    | border along the line of insanity.
                    |
                    | .don
                    |
                    | -----Original Message-----
                    | From: z_scale@yahoogroups.com [mailto:z_scale@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                    | Of HermannZFriends
                    | Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 12:28 PM
                    | To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                    | Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS
                    |
                    | Dear Bob,
                    |
                    | let me tell you as a former collegue ...
                    | it makes a difference ... if you sell powerpack and controller as a unit
                    | or as package ... or if you sell a controller and as well a transformer
                    | ( whatever you will do with that transformer ) because the customer is
                    | responsible for what he will do with the seperate purchased transformer
                    | .... and not You !
                    |
                    | :-)))) Hermann
                    |
                    | ----- Original Message -----
                    | From: bobfage2000
                    | To: z_scale@yahoogroups <mailto:z_scale%40yahoogroups.com> .com
                    | Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 5:46 PM
                    | Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS
                    |
                    | --- In z_scale@yahoogroups <mailto:z_scale%40yahoogroups.com> .com,
                    | "HermannZFriends" <hermannfb@...>
                    | wrote:
                    | >
                    | > There's one point missing in all discussions up to now:
                    | >
                    | >>
                    | > I think, that's also one of the reasons, Joerger ( Jeremy ) offer
                    | their throttle ( ?speed contoller ? ) without any power pack and only
                    | mention the 9V Batteries in their description!
                    | >
                    | >> Hermann
                    | >
                    | >
                    | >
                    | > I think you are wrong Herman..... Jeremy Brandon does supply a
                    | power unit of sorts.. it allows his controllers to go from a mains
                    | power step down to the 9 volts.. I have one.. I also have supplied
                    | them to Australia to friends. Ok it is not directly plugged intot he
                    | wall, but it is still much more than a battery and would have all the
                    | implications of EEC law (I am a UK lawyer)... While we in the UK do
                    | not have the same problems legally wise as the USA, we are not that
                    | far behind. Bob Fage (in the UK)
                    | >
                    | >
                    | >
                    | > ----- Original Message -----
                    | > From: Alan Cox
                    | > To: z_scale@yahoogroups <mailto:z_scale%40yahoogroups.com> .com
                    | > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 5:09 PM
                    | > Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS
                    | >
                    | >
                    | > Ar Mer, 2006-08-02 am 05:52 +0000, ysgrifennodd choirguydotcom:
                    | >
                    | > > Perhaps a better plan would be a discount coupon towards the
                    | purchase
                    | > > of a power pack, either for the store carrying the product, or
                    | > > directly from Micro-Trains.
                    | >
                    | > It needs to be complete. Thats something Marklin got figured out
                    | right.
                    | > Controller, wires, instructions, track, train and in some cases
                    | even
                    | > scenery kits. People will be wary of coupons and it will not work
                    | for
                    | > presents because they don't want to inflict the ordering hassle on
                    | > others.
                    | >
                    | > The controller doesn't have to be *good*, it doesn't have to be
                    | bulky
                    | > and it doesn't even need to be mains powered. It does need to
                    | meet the
                    | > "assemble and it works" requirement. A little 9v battery
                    | controller,
                    | > with a few speed settings is quite sufficient. It will survive
                    | christmas
                    | > or birthday day and the rest will follow.
                    | >
                    | > A coupon for a matching wall-wart for when they get annoyed by the
                    | > battery might well work.
                    | >
                    | > <Cynical MBA mode on>
                    | > In fact there is a good chance people with a battery controller
                    | and
                    | > coupon will pay *more* for their add-on wall wart than at the
                    | local
                    | > superstore and do so willingly to be sure its compatible. At that
                    | point
                    | > the coupon is actually a business opportunity in itself.
                    | > </Cyncial MBA mode off>
                    | >
                    | > Alan
                    | >
                    | >
                    | >
                    | >
                    | >
                    | >
                    | > ----------------------------------------------------------
                    | ----------
                    | >
                    | >
                    | > No virus found in this incoming message.
                    | > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                    | > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/405 - Release Date:
                    | 01.08.2006
                    | >
                    | >
                    | > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    | >
                    |
                    | ----------------------------------------------------------
                    |
                    | No virus found in this incoming message.
                    | Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                    | Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/406 - Release Date:
                    | 02.08.2006
                    |
                    | [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    |
                    |
                    |
                    | [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    |
                    |


                    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    ----


                    No virus found in this incoming message.
                    Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                    Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/407 - Release Date: 03.08.2006
                  • Alan Cox
                    ... I did a brief survey of UK sets to see what gets sold here: - Bachmann include a controller. High end stuff a very basic DCC controller. All are wall
                    Message 9 of 26 , Aug 3, 2006
                    • 0 Attachment
                      > when I was 7. None of that now defunct manufacturer's
                      > starter set was sold with a power pack....The power
                      > packs always were a different feature.....

                      I did a brief survey of UK sets to see what gets sold here:


                      - Bachmann include a controller. High end stuff a very basic DCC
                      controller. All are "wall wart" plugins
                      - Hornby include a controller. Premier ("high end" adult aimed) sets
                      have a non wallwart dual controller
                      - Marklin ship a controller with their sets, varying from a naff battery
                      controller to a real one
                      - Fleischmann ship a controller
                      - Kato seems more to ship controller with track set and then train packs

                      Nobody does sets with no controller
                    • Allan Miller
                      Coming in late here, but I don t understand all the fuss being made over a transformer (actually, a power pack, I believe) for Z. Seems to me there s a real
                      Message 10 of 26 , Aug 3, 2006
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                        Coming in late here, but I don't understand all the fuss being made
                        over a transformer (actually, a power pack, I believe) for Z.

                        Seems to me there's a real need for a dedicated pack for Z scalers,
                        just as there are power packs and transformers offered by
                        manufacturers--in sets and separately--in nearly all of the other
                        scales, if not all of them. It has been that way for many years.

                        Doesn't matter to me if the pack coes as part of a set or is sold
                        separately. The need is still there, in my opinion. I wouldn't
                        expect MT to get involved in the power pack manufacturing business,
                        but it seems like someone--MRC, for example--could easily pick up the
                        ball and run with it if they determined there was a market (based on
                        more factual information than simply the desires posted on a forum or
                        elsewhere).

                        Perhaps I'm wrong about that, and the market is doing well enough
                        without that important item, but I still think it's something that has
                        been long overlooked.

                        And the safety issue is pretty much a non-issue, as I see it. I don't
                        think I've ever heard of anyone being seriously injured by using these
                        devices, including the large-output models used in Large Scale and O
                        gauge, and I've been following the hobby in several scales for many years.

                        The economics of the thing I can understand--it may simply be too
                        small a market to justify the manufacturing expense involved--but
                        consumer safety concerns, even in this highly litiguous society,
                        should certainly not be a deal breaker, at least in my opinion.
                      • dpstripe@aol.com
                        Doesn t MT still market the MRC 1300 externally modified for Z scale? Dan S. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        Message 11 of 26 , Aug 3, 2006
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                          Doesn't MT still market the MRC 1300 "externally modified" for Z scale?
                          Dan S.


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • bobfage2000
                          ... unit or as package ... or if you sell a controller and as well a transformer ( whatever you will do with that transformer ) because the customer is
                          Message 12 of 26 , Aug 4, 2006
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                            --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "HermannZFriends" <hermannfb@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > Dear Bob,
                            >
                            > let me tell you as a former collegue ...
                            > it makes a difference ... if you sell powerpack and controller as a
                            unit or as package ... or if you sell a controller and as well a
                            transformer ( whatever you will do with that transformer ) because
                            the customer is responsible for what he will do with the seperate
                            purchased transformer .... and not You !
                            >
                            > :-)))) Hermann
                            >
                            > Hi Herman,

                            I was talking about product liabilty. for example Jeremy Brandon
                            would still be responsible for his mains power convertor... lets say
                            it surged (which it does not I might add). Complex legal issues. But
                            in the UK we are still some way behind the US legal mania for asking
                            for damages. But Marklin still issues the starter sets with a power
                            controller in various outputs 110v for the USA to 240v for the UK and
                            Europe so they do not see any issues. I think it is the issue of:
                            costs v weight v warrenty v packing that will not make it attractive
                            to companies such as MTL. I have purchased several of the MTL starter
                            sets and the boxes are not that strong and would have to be made so
                            and that will add a lot of cost to a product that is not that cheap
                            (but good value). I just think Herman it is $$$$ or ££££ or Euros
                            rather than legal issues that will decide this matter in the long
                            run. As far as I am concerned I will get someone like Gaugemaster
                            (based in the UK)to make a 9 v or stick with the Marklin or the Super
                            Jorger by Jeremy Brandon.. They all do the job in different degrees.

                            Bob Fage (in the UK)
                            >
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: bobfage2000
                            > To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 5:46 PM
                            > Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "HermannZFriends" <hermannfb@>
                            > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > There's one point missing in all discussions up to now:
                            > >
                            > >>
                            > > I think, that's also one of the reasons, Joerger ( Jeremy )
                            offer
                            > their throttle ( ?speed contoller ? ) without any power pack and
                            only
                            > mention the 9V Batteries in their description!
                            > >
                            > >> Hermann
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > I think you are wrong Herman..... Jeremy Brandon does supply a
                            > power unit of sorts.. it allows his controllers to go from a
                            mains
                            > power step down to the 9 volts.. I have one.. I also have
                            supplied
                            > them to Australia to friends. Ok it is not directly plugged intot
                            he
                            > wall, but it is still much more than a battery and would have all
                            the
                            > implications of EEC law (I am a UK lawyer)... While we in the UK
                            do
                            > not have the same problems legally wise as the USA, we are not
                            that
                            > far behind. Bob Fage (in the UK)
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ----- Original Message -----
                            > > From: Alan Cox
                            > > To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                            > > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 5:09 PM
                            > > Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Ar Mer, 2006-08-02 am 05:52 +0000, ysgrifennodd choirguydotcom:
                            > >
                            > > > Perhaps a better plan would be a discount coupon towards the
                            > purchase
                            > > > of a power pack, either for the store carrying the product, or
                            > > > directly from Micro-Trains.
                            > >
                            > > It needs to be complete. Thats something Marklin got figured
                            out
                            > right.
                            > > Controller, wires, instructions, track, train and in some cases
                            > even
                            > > scenery kits. People will be wary of coupons and it will not
                            work
                            > for
                            > > presents because they don't want to inflict the ordering hassle
                            on
                            > > others.
                            > >
                            > > The controller doesn't have to be *good*, it doesn't have to be
                            > bulky
                            > > and it doesn't even need to be mains powered. It does need to
                            > meet the
                            > > "assemble and it works" requirement. A little 9v battery
                            > controller,
                            > > with a few speed settings is quite sufficient. It will survive
                            > christmas
                            > > or birthday day and the rest will follow.
                            > >
                            > > A coupon for a matching wall-wart for when they get annoyed by
                            the
                            > > battery might well work.
                            > >
                            > > <Cynical MBA mode on>
                            > > In fact there is a good chance people with a battery controller
                            > and
                            > > coupon will pay *more* for their add-on wall wart than at the
                            > local
                            > > superstore and do so willingly to be sure its compatible. At
                            that
                            > point
                            > > the coupon is actually a business opportunity in itself.
                            > > </Cyncial MBA mode off>
                            > >
                            > > Alan
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                            > ----------
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                            > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                            > > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/405 - Release Date:
                            > 01.08.2006
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                            ----------
                            >
                            >
                            > No virus found in this incoming message.
                            > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                            > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/406 - Release Date:
                            02.08.2006
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                          • bobfage2000
                            ... Hi Don I could not agree more. While in the UK we are heading down the USA road for litigation, the end result is that the producers of a product are
                            Message 13 of 26 , Aug 4, 2006
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                              --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Don Avila" <d.f.avila@...> wrote:
                              >
                              Hi Don

                              I could not agree more. While in the UK we are heading down the USA
                              road for litigation, the end result is that the producers of a
                              product are responsible ..in the UK : Sale of Goods Act and others.
                              But I still say it is the $$$ or £££ or the Euros that dictate if a
                              power pack is included, not the prospects of litigation. Otherwise
                              everything we could buy would have the same problem from washing
                              machine to cars.

                              Bob Fage (in the UK)
                              >
                              > Hermann;
                              >
                              > After spending over 40 years in the courtrooms throughout North
                              America
                              > including all 50 of the United States and many locations in Canada
                              plus
                              > many other foreign countries, I must respectively disagree with you
                              that
                              > the customer is responsible for himself. I agree it SHOULD be that
                              way,
                              > but United States is a very litigious society, and jury results
                              sometime
                              > border along the line of insanity.
                              >
                              > .don
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: z_scale@yahoogroups.com [mailto:z_scale@yahoogroups.com] On
                              Behalf
                              > Of HermannZFriends
                              > Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 12:28 PM
                              > To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS
                              >
                              > Dear Bob,
                              >
                              > let me tell you as a former collegue ...
                              > it makes a difference ... if you sell powerpack and controller as a
                              unit
                              > or as package ... or if you sell a controller and as well a
                              transformer
                              > ( whatever you will do with that transformer ) because the customer
                              is
                              > responsible for what he will do with the seperate purchased
                              transformer
                              > .... and not You !
                              >
                              > :-)))) Hermann
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: bobfage2000
                              > To: z_scale@yahoogroups <mailto:z_scale%40yahoogroups.com> .com
                              > Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 5:46 PM
                              > Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS
                              >
                              > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups <mailto:z_scale%40yahoogroups.com> .com,
                              > "HermannZFriends" <hermannfb@>
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > There's one point missing in all discussions up to now:
                              > >
                              > >>
                              > > I think, that's also one of the reasons, Joerger ( Jeremy ) offer
                              > their throttle ( ?speed contoller ? ) without any power pack and
                              only
                              > mention the 9V Batteries in their description!
                              > >
                              > >> Hermann
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > I think you are wrong Herman..... Jeremy Brandon does supply a
                              > power unit of sorts.. it allows his controllers to go from a mains
                              > power step down to the 9 volts.. I have one.. I also have supplied
                              > them to Australia to friends. Ok it is not directly plugged intot
                              he
                              > wall, but it is still much more than a battery and would have all
                              the
                              > implications of EEC law (I am a UK lawyer)... While we in the UK do
                              > not have the same problems legally wise as the USA, we are not that
                              > far behind. Bob Fage (in the UK)
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > ----- Original Message -----
                              > > From: Alan Cox
                              > > To: z_scale@yahoogroups <mailto:z_scale%40yahoogroups.com> .com
                              > > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 5:09 PM
                              > > Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Ar Mer, 2006-08-02 am 05:52 +0000, ysgrifennodd choirguydotcom:
                              > >
                              > > > Perhaps a better plan would be a discount coupon towards the
                              > purchase
                              > > > of a power pack, either for the store carrying the product, or
                              > > > directly from Micro-Trains.
                              > >
                              > > It needs to be complete. Thats something Marklin got figured out
                              > right.
                              > > Controller, wires, instructions, track, train and in some cases
                              > even
                              > > scenery kits. People will be wary of coupons and it will not work
                              > for
                              > > presents because they don't want to inflict the ordering hassle on
                              > > others.
                              > >
                              > > The controller doesn't have to be *good*, it doesn't have to be
                              > bulky
                              > > and it doesn't even need to be mains powered. It does need to
                              > meet the
                              > > "assemble and it works" requirement. A little 9v battery
                              > controller,
                              > > with a few speed settings is quite sufficient. It will survive
                              > christmas
                              > > or birthday day and the rest will follow.
                              > >
                              > > A coupon for a matching wall-wart for when they get annoyed by the
                              > > battery might well work.
                              > >
                              > > <Cynical MBA mode on>
                              > > In fact there is a good chance people with a battery controller
                              > and
                              > > coupon will pay *more* for their add-on wall wart than at the
                              > local
                              > > superstore and do so willingly to be sure its compatible. At that
                              > point
                              > > the coupon is actually a business opportunity in itself.
                              > > </Cyncial MBA mode off>
                              > >
                              > > Alan
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                              > ----------
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                              > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                              > > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/405 - Release Date:
                              > 01.08.2006
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              >
                              > ----------------------------------------------------------
                              >
                              > No virus found in this incoming message.
                              > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                              > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/406 - Release Date:
                              > 02.08.2006
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • bobfage2000
                              ... differance. Only Marklin issue a controller for Z as far as I am aware? Bob Fage (in the UK) ... battery ... packs
                              Message 14 of 26 , Aug 4, 2006
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                                --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Alan Cox <alan@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Alan, you are looking at HO and N sets not Z ... a world of
                                differance. Only Marklin issue a controller for Z as far as I am
                                aware? Bob Fage (in the UK)
                                >
                                > > when I was 7. None of that now defunct manufacturer's
                                > > starter set was sold with a power pack....The power
                                > > packs always were a different feature.....
                                >
                                > I did a brief survey of UK sets to see what gets sold here:
                                >
                                >
                                > - Bachmann include a controller. High end stuff a very basic DCC
                                > controller. All are "wall wart" plugins
                                > - Hornby include a controller. Premier ("high end" adult aimed) sets
                                > have a non wallwart dual controller
                                > - Marklin ship a controller with their sets, varying from a naff
                                battery
                                > controller to a real one
                                > - Fleischmann ship a controller
                                > - Kato seems more to ship controller with track set and then train
                                packs
                                >
                                > Nobody does sets with no controller
                                >
                              • bobfage2000
                                ... therefore you can get the sets. So Marklin is not the only Z gauge that comes into the UK.. I also sell on Ebay with my shop and have 190 items available
                                Message 15 of 26 , Aug 4, 2006
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                                  --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Alan Cox <alan@...> wrote:
                                  >Alan MTL is available in the UK via some shops (there agents) and
                                  therefore you can get the sets. So Marklin is not the only Z gauge that
                                  comes into the UK.. I also sell on Ebay with my shop and have 190 items
                                  available and have in the past had the sets both for the F7 and the
                                  GP35 available - all sold without a power controller.

                                  Bob


                                  > Ar Gwe, 2006-08-04 am 07:55 +0000, ysgrifennodd bobfage2000:
                                  > > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Alan Cox <alan@> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Alan, you are looking at HO and N sets not Z ... a world of
                                  > > differance. Only Marklin issue a controller for Z as far as I am
                                  > > aware? Bob Fage (in the UK)
                                  >
                                  > Nobody but Marklin sells Z sets into the UK. I therefore looked at
                                  > everything from LGB through OO to Z. Every manufacturer sold set aimed
                                  > at the UK market comes with a controller whatever the scale.
                                  >
                                  > The only oddity I found was Kato where you seem to buy a track set
                                  which
                                  > includes the controller and a separate train pack.
                                  >
                                  > Alan
                                  >
                                • Alan Cox
                                  ... Nobody but Marklin sells Z sets into the UK. I therefore looked at everything from LGB through OO to Z. Every manufacturer sold set aimed at the UK market
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Aug 4, 2006
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                                    Ar Gwe, 2006-08-04 am 07:55 +0000, ysgrifennodd bobfage2000:
                                    > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Alan Cox <alan@...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Alan, you are looking at HO and N sets not Z ... a world of
                                    > differance. Only Marklin issue a controller for Z as far as I am
                                    > aware? Bob Fage (in the UK)

                                    Nobody but Marklin sells Z sets into the UK. I therefore looked at
                                    everything from LGB through OO to Z. Every manufacturer sold set aimed
                                    at the UK market comes with a controller whatever the scale.

                                    The only oddity I found was Kato where you seem to buy a track set which
                                    includes the controller and a separate train pack.

                                    Alan
                                  • bobfage2000
                                    ... and ... the ... Alan, it is a shame that MTL do not target the UK, so I have to agree with you. But when I take MTL and AZL locos to shows and toy fairs in
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Aug 4, 2006
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                                      --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Alan Cox <alan@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Ar Gwe, 2006-08-04 am 10:01 +0000, ysgrifennodd bobfage2000:
                                      > > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Alan Cox <alan@> wrote:
                                      > > >Alan MTL is available in the UK via some shops (there agents)
                                      and
                                      > > therefore you can get the sets. So Marklin is not the only Z gauge
                                      > > that
                                      > > comes into the UK..
                                      >
                                      > Please read what I wrote. "Nobody but Marklin sells Z sets *into*
                                      the
                                      > UK"
                                      >
                                      > Yes people import MTL sets, but MTL does not itself target the UK
                                      > market.
                                      >
                                      > Alan
                                      >

                                      Alan, it is a shame that MTL do not target the UK, so I have to agree
                                      with you. But when I take MTL and AZL locos to shows and toy fairs in
                                      the UK I get a lot of interest. It is a bit like Marklin not doing UK
                                      outline engines.. a market just sitting there waiting. Which is a
                                      shame

                                      Bob
                                    • Alan Cox
                                      ... Please read what I wrote. Nobody but Marklin sells Z sets *into* the UK Yes people import MTL sets, but MTL does not itself target the UK market. Alan
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Aug 4, 2006
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                                        Ar Gwe, 2006-08-04 am 10:01 +0000, ysgrifennodd bobfage2000:
                                        > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Alan Cox <alan@...> wrote:
                                        > >Alan MTL is available in the UK via some shops (there agents) and
                                        > therefore you can get the sets. So Marklin is not the only Z gauge
                                        > that
                                        > comes into the UK..

                                        Please read what I wrote. "Nobody but Marklin sells Z sets *into* the
                                        UK"

                                        Yes people import MTL sets, but MTL does not itself target the UK
                                        market.

                                        Alan
                                      • vincentgoudreault
                                        What if MTL just printed on their starter set, in big friendly letters, a note that read thusly: You will need a power supply. MTL recommends (here a list of
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Aug 4, 2006
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                                          What if MTL just printed on their starter set, in big friendly
                                          letters, a note that read thusly:

                                          You will need a power supply. MTL recommends (here a list of a few
                                          models from a few makers, which are considered adequate)

                                          and leave the customer to make the choice? Then anyone who can read
                                          can have a better chance to avoid the dreaded "batteries not
                                          included" Christmas morning trauma, and end up with a power supply
                                          that is more likely to satisfy their need. This will also likely
                                          have the potential buyer ask the knowledable hobby show operator for
                                          information, and help establish good marchant-customer relations.

                                          I mean, Z is unique in the many way it will be used by modelers, and
                                          that would determine which power pack is more suitable. Is this
                                          starter set only an easy way to expand an existing roster? Is it
                                          meant for someone who eventually will have a large layout, perhaps
                                          even with DCC? Or is a cute "layout in a briefcase" envisioned, in
                                          which case a battery operated power pack makes a lot more sense?


                                          CBVG
                                        • RSGRANT
                                          BICKER BICKER BICKER LET IT DIE Jonsey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Aug 4, 2006
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                                            BICKER BICKER BICKER LET IT DIE Jonsey

                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • de Champeaux Dominique
                                            ... Interresting thoughts. But frankly chaps, do you think it s an issue? As I believe US are under strong rules about liability, let s say around all that
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Aug 6, 2006
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              > I was talking about product liabilty. for example
                                              > Jeremy Brandon
                                              > would still be responsible for his mains power
                                              > convertor... lets say
                                              > it surged (which it does not I might add). Complex
                                              > legal issues. But
                                              > in the UK we are still some way behind the US legal
                                              > mania for asking
                                              > for damages.....

                                              Interresting thoughts. But frankly chaps, do you think
                                              it's an issue? As I believe US are under strong rules
                                              about liability, let's say around all that deals with
                                              death or corporal accidents (even for animals), I
                                              can't imagine a court charging a manufacturer for a
                                              fry Z scale loco....<grin>

                                              Dominique






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