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Re: POWER PACKS

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  • Jim O'Connell
    Hello Russ, I started that thread last week. Glad to hear that you followed up at you local train shop. I hope Joe has been peeking in because with my 4 out of
    Message 1 of 26 , Aug 1, 2006
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      Hello Russ, I started that thread last week. Glad to hear that you
      followed up at you local train shop. I hope Joe has been peeking in
      because with my 4 out of 4 and your 1 for 1 hobby shops saying they
      could and would sell MTL sets with a powerpack included makes 100%! If
      someone at MTL can't see the writing on the wall, we are all in
      trouble. But MTL will be first. Cheers, Jim A New CCRR
    • choirguydotcom
      The power pack with the starter set does seem like a good idea; however, the question remains if it is economical for MicroTrains to do this. They modify MRC
      Message 2 of 26 , Aug 1, 2006
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        The power pack with the starter set does seem like a good idea;
        however, the question remains if it is economical for MicroTrains to
        do this. They modify MRC power packs and sell them
        independently...but how many starter sets do they sell, and would
        there be enough supply of power packs to include them in the starter
        sets? Additionally, add the extra cost of the power pack PLUS the
        additional cost for shipping (weight) and new packaging in the deal.
        This all probably adds up to an additional $50 per starter set, which
        (although reasonably priced for z scale) are already $200 more
        expensive than HO sets.

        Perhaps a better plan would be a discount coupon towards the purchase
        of a power pack, either for the store carrying the product, or
        directly from Micro-Trains.

        It's just an idea.

        Chris
      • Glen Chenier
        ... wrote: I was given an MRC Tech 4 220 power pack today -- new, unopened. Of ... use pulse power or ... Russ, You have just picked on one of my pet peeves.
        Message 3 of 26 , Aug 2, 2006
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          --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Russ Meier" <agentink_and_zfan@...>
          wrote:
          I was given an MRC Tech 4 220 power pack today -- new, unopened. Of
          > course, as an MRC product, the literature does not state "we do not
          use pulse power" or
          > "we do use pulse power".

          Russ,

          You have just picked on one of my pet peeves. Why is it that one can
          go to a stereo emporium and every speaker system package has the
          frequency response curve printed right on the box (for whatever its
          worth), yet model rail power pack manufacturers do not supply the
          technical details of their output waveforms and voltages in their
          product literature?

          None of my MRC power packs use square PWM 'pulse' power; all are
          variable voltage. My MRC 1400 and 1440 use interleaved half wave sine
          with variable peak voltage, my MRC 2800 has a beautiful variable DC
          level with superimposed trapezoid excursions that is great for slow
          speed, my MRC 1370s have a manufacturing defect that results in full
          wave variable peak sine instead of half wave. But with all these
          differences in the various models from the same manufacturer, you are
          wise to question the MRC Tech 4 220. Who knows?

          You have some options...

          1) Contact MRC and ask. Good luck. I gave up a long time ago with
          trying to get any customer support technical info out of them. The
          tech there was somewhat miffed when I asked if he could haul out his
          scope and make a measurement on the 1370. Maybe it was too heavy for
          him to lift off the shelf and blow the dust off it.

          2) Find someone with an oscilloscope and get them to look at the power
          pack output. Maybe you know someone who knows someone who belongs to
          a ham radio club, or attends a technical school, or works at a tech
          place where they could bring in the power pack and spend 5 minutes to
          measure its output on a scope.

          3) <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/z_scale_electronics> is attempting
          to accumulate data on various power packs and their suitability for Z
          scale. The files section there has a Peak Pulse Detection circuit
          that can be used along with a standard voltmeter to measure peak
          voltage from a power pack to at least tell you if variable or PWM.

          If you should have success with item 2), please snap some scope photos
          and post them on the Z_Scale_Electronics photos to add to the collection.
        • Jim O'Connell
          ... to ... starter ... deal. ... which ... purchase ... Chris, Good job on this posting. Let me say this. With all the feedback on this subject. With all the
          Message 4 of 26 , Aug 2, 2006
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            --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "choirguydotcom" <choirguy@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > The power pack with the starter set does seem like a good idea;
            > however, the question remains if it is economical for MicroTrains
            to
            > do this. They modify MRC power packs and sell them
            > independently...but how many starter sets do they sell, and would
            > there be enough supply of power packs to include them in the
            starter
            > sets? Additionally, add the extra cost of the power pack PLUS the
            > additional cost for shipping (weight) and new packaging in the
            deal.
            > This all probably adds up to an additional $50 per starter set,
            which
            > (although reasonably priced for z scale) are already $200 more
            > expensive than HO sets.
            >
            > Perhaps a better plan would be a discount coupon towards the
            purchase
            > of a power pack, either for the store carrying the product, or
            > directly from Micro-Trains.
            >
            > It's just an idea.
            >
            > Chris
            >
            Chris, Good job on this posting. Let me say this. With all the
            feedback on this subject. With all the seemingly overwelming
            evidence that MTL will sell more sets if they include a
            small "kitchen table top" powerpack, how can they afford NOT to? Put
            another way, let's say they sell 1000 sets without a powerpack.
            Let's say they can sell 10,000 sets with one. I hated econ in
            college, but I would say I would rather sell 10,000 sets. In the
            long run the increase in Z scalers will much more than offset the
            repackaging and shipping costs. Let's face it, MTL models North
            American and virtually all those 10,000 set buyers that stick with Z
            will purchase MORE from MTL. Then as they grow the scale they will
            more fully realize that there are other Z manufactures and hopefully
            they become spenders all over the Z market. My San Diego
            trainstores are selling $450 Marklin sets, powerpack included, year
            round and especially at Christmas time. They won't even order the
            sets from MTL. Well? I like the voucher/coupon idea. But this has
            to be able to be used before the customer leaves the store. They
            can't discover the voucher at home or under the Xmas tree. So here
            we have to rely on the sales clerks to actually do their job. Risky
            at best. Trust me on this>a shameless theft of a movie line< "If
            you put it in they will buy." Face another fact. Purchasers are lazy
            at best. You have to have it all there for them. Econ 101, day 1.
            Cheers, Jim A New CCRR
          • Alan Cox
            ... It needs to be complete. Thats something Marklin got figured out right. Controller, wires, instructions, track, train and in some cases even scenery kits.
            Message 5 of 26 , Aug 2, 2006
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              Ar Mer, 2006-08-02 am 05:52 +0000, ysgrifennodd choirguydotcom:

              > Perhaps a better plan would be a discount coupon towards the purchase
              > of a power pack, either for the store carrying the product, or
              > directly from Micro-Trains.

              It needs to be complete. Thats something Marklin got figured out right.
              Controller, wires, instructions, track, train and in some cases even
              scenery kits. People will be wary of coupons and it will not work for
              presents because they don't want to inflict the ordering hassle on
              others.

              The controller doesn't have to be *good*, it doesn't have to be bulky
              and it doesn't even need to be mains powered. It does need to meet the
              "assemble and it works" requirement. A little 9v battery controller,
              with a few speed settings is quite sufficient. It will survive christmas
              or birthday day and the rest will follow.

              A coupon for a matching wall-wart for when they get annoyed by the
              battery might well work.

              <Cynical MBA mode on>
              In fact there is a good chance people with a battery controller and
              coupon will pay *more* for their add-on wall wart than at the local
              superstore and do so willingly to be sure its compatible. At that point
              the coupon is actually a business opportunity in itself.
              </Cyncial MBA mode off>

              Alan
            • HermannZFriends
              There s one point missing in all discussions up to now: At the moment MTL is just responsable for their tracks, Locos and cars ... If they really add a
              Message 6 of 26 , Aug 3, 2006
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                There's one point missing in all discussions up to now:

                At the moment MTL is just responsable for their tracks, Locos and cars ...

                If they really add a powerpack, they will not only have higher costs due to the power pack .. but they will also be responsable for any possible electrical danger !

                I think, that's also one of the reasons, Joerger ( Jeremy ) offer their throttle ( ?speed contoller ? ) without any power pack and only mention the 9V Batteries in their description!

                Read once the new maerklin Z brochure ( Jahrbuch ) - due to new EC laws they will discontinue the current Transformerspeedcontrollers ... and with the new starter sets the controller will be delivered with seperate a wall mount Transformer !

                Especially in the US where u even are responsable for a hot cup of coffee and u have to pay millions of bucks if the coffee is too hot, might be that it ' s just too dangerous .. to sell starter sets with power packs !

                rgds

                Hermann







                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Alan Cox
                To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 5:09 PM
                Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS


                Ar Mer, 2006-08-02 am 05:52 +0000, ysgrifennodd choirguydotcom:

                > Perhaps a better plan would be a discount coupon towards the purchase
                > of a power pack, either for the store carrying the product, or
                > directly from Micro-Trains.

                It needs to be complete. Thats something Marklin got figured out right.
                Controller, wires, instructions, track, train and in some cases even
                scenery kits. People will be wary of coupons and it will not work for
                presents because they don't want to inflict the ordering hassle on
                others.

                The controller doesn't have to be *good*, it doesn't have to be bulky
                and it doesn't even need to be mains powered. It does need to meet the
                "assemble and it works" requirement. A little 9v battery controller,
                with a few speed settings is quite sufficient. It will survive christmas
                or birthday day and the rest will follow.

                A coupon for a matching wall-wart for when they get annoyed by the
                battery might well work.

                <Cynical MBA mode on>
                In fact there is a good chance people with a battery controller and
                coupon will pay *more* for their add-on wall wart than at the local
                superstore and do so willingly to be sure its compatible. At that point
                the coupon is actually a business opportunity in itself.
                </Cyncial MBA mode off>

                Alan






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                No virus found in this incoming message.
                Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/405 - Release Date: 01.08.2006


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • bobfage2000
                ... their throttle ( ?speed contoller ? ) without any power pack and only mention the 9V Batteries in their description! ... power unit of sorts.. it allows
                Message 7 of 26 , Aug 3, 2006
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                  --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "HermannZFriends" <hermannfb@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > There's one point missing in all discussions up to now:
                  >
                  >>
                  > I think, that's also one of the reasons, Joerger ( Jeremy ) offer
                  their throttle ( ?speed contoller ? ) without any power pack and only
                  mention the 9V Batteries in their description!
                  >
                  >> Hermann
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I think you are wrong Herman..... Jeremy Brandon does supply a
                  power unit of sorts.. it allows his controllers to go from a mains
                  power step down to the 9 volts.. I have one.. I also have supplied
                  them to Australia to friends. Ok it is not directly plugged intot he
                  wall, but it is still much more than a battery and would have all the
                  implications of EEC law (I am a UK lawyer)... While we in the UK do
                  not have the same problems legally wise as the USA, we are not that
                  far behind. Bob Fage (in the UK)
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: Alan Cox
                  > To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 5:09 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS
                  >
                  >
                  > Ar Mer, 2006-08-02 am 05:52 +0000, ysgrifennodd choirguydotcom:
                  >
                  > > Perhaps a better plan would be a discount coupon towards the
                  purchase
                  > > of a power pack, either for the store carrying the product, or
                  > > directly from Micro-Trains.
                  >
                  > It needs to be complete. Thats something Marklin got figured out
                  right.
                  > Controller, wires, instructions, track, train and in some cases
                  even
                  > scenery kits. People will be wary of coupons and it will not work
                  for
                  > presents because they don't want to inflict the ordering hassle on
                  > others.
                  >
                  > The controller doesn't have to be *good*, it doesn't have to be
                  bulky
                  > and it doesn't even need to be mains powered. It does need to
                  meet the
                  > "assemble and it works" requirement. A little 9v battery
                  controller,
                  > with a few speed settings is quite sufficient. It will survive
                  christmas
                  > or birthday day and the rest will follow.
                  >
                  > A coupon for a matching wall-wart for when they get annoyed by the
                  > battery might well work.
                  >
                  > <Cynical MBA mode on>
                  > In fact there is a good chance people with a battery controller
                  and
                  > coupon will pay *more* for their add-on wall wart than at the
                  local
                  > superstore and do so willingly to be sure its compatible. At that
                  point
                  > the coupon is actually a business opportunity in itself.
                  > </Cyncial MBA mode off>
                  >
                  > Alan
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                  ----------
                  >
                  >
                  > No virus found in this incoming message.
                  > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                  > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/405 - Release Date:
                  01.08.2006
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • HermannZFriends
                  Dear Bob, let me tell you as a former collegue ... it makes a difference ... if you sell powerpack and controller as a unit or as package ... or if you sell a
                  Message 8 of 26 , Aug 3, 2006
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                    Dear Bob,

                    let me tell you as a former collegue ...
                    it makes a difference ... if you sell powerpack and controller as a unit or as package ... or if you sell a controller and as well a transformer ( whatever you will do with that transformer ) because the customer is responsible for what he will do with the seperate purchased transformer .... and not You !

                    :-)))) Hermann




                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: bobfage2000
                    To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 5:46 PM
                    Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS


                    --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "HermannZFriends" <hermannfb@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > There's one point missing in all discussions up to now:
                    >
                    >>
                    > I think, that's also one of the reasons, Joerger ( Jeremy ) offer
                    their throttle ( ?speed contoller ? ) without any power pack and only
                    mention the 9V Batteries in their description!
                    >
                    >> Hermann
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I think you are wrong Herman..... Jeremy Brandon does supply a
                    power unit of sorts.. it allows his controllers to go from a mains
                    power step down to the 9 volts.. I have one.. I also have supplied
                    them to Australia to friends. Ok it is not directly plugged intot he
                    wall, but it is still much more than a battery and would have all the
                    implications of EEC law (I am a UK lawyer)... While we in the UK do
                    not have the same problems legally wise as the USA, we are not that
                    far behind. Bob Fage (in the UK)
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: Alan Cox
                    > To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 5:09 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS
                    >
                    >
                    > Ar Mer, 2006-08-02 am 05:52 +0000, ysgrifennodd choirguydotcom:
                    >
                    > > Perhaps a better plan would be a discount coupon towards the
                    purchase
                    > > of a power pack, either for the store carrying the product, or
                    > > directly from Micro-Trains.
                    >
                    > It needs to be complete. Thats something Marklin got figured out
                    right.
                    > Controller, wires, instructions, track, train and in some cases
                    even
                    > scenery kits. People will be wary of coupons and it will not work
                    for
                    > presents because they don't want to inflict the ordering hassle on
                    > others.
                    >
                    > The controller doesn't have to be *good*, it doesn't have to be
                    bulky
                    > and it doesn't even need to be mains powered. It does need to
                    meet the
                    > "assemble and it works" requirement. A little 9v battery
                    controller,
                    > with a few speed settings is quite sufficient. It will survive
                    christmas
                    > or birthday day and the rest will follow.
                    >
                    > A coupon for a matching wall-wart for when they get annoyed by the
                    > battery might well work.
                    >
                    > <Cynical MBA mode on>
                    > In fact there is a good chance people with a battery controller
                    and
                    > coupon will pay *more* for their add-on wall wart than at the
                    local
                    > superstore and do so willingly to be sure its compatible. At that
                    point
                    > the coupon is actually a business opportunity in itself.
                    > </Cyncial MBA mode off>
                    >
                    > Alan
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ----------------------------------------------------------
                    ----------
                    >
                    >
                    > No virus found in this incoming message.
                    > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                    > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/405 - Release Date:
                    01.08.2006
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >






                    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------


                    No virus found in this incoming message.
                    Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                    Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/406 - Release Date: 02.08.2006


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Alan Cox
                    ... For the EU a product that is sold commercially should have an EC mark on it meaning it meets relevant safety standards, even if imported. It must also meet
                    Message 9 of 26 , Aug 3, 2006
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                      Ar Iau, 2006-08-03 am 15:46 +0000, ysgrifennodd bobfage2000:
                      > > I think you are wrong Herman..... Jeremy Brandon does supply a
                      > power unit of sorts.. it allows his controllers to go from a mains
                      > power step down to the 9 volts.. I have one.. I also have supplied
                      > them to Australia to friends. Ok it is not directly plugged intot he
                      > wall, but it is still much more than a battery and would have all the
                      > implications of EEC law (I am a UK lawyer)... While we in the UK do

                      For the EU a product that is sold commercially should have an EC mark on
                      it meaning it meets relevant safety standards, even if imported. It must
                      also meet standards of materials and recyclability. These are all much
                      like FCC approval and so forth in the USA.

                      A device which is mains powered and contains an internal mains
                      transformer has to meet a set of tests that are far more stringent than
                      those with a 9v battery (for reasons I'd hope are obvious). That makes
                      it more cost effective - as with US safety regulations - to use an
                      external ready tested mass market wall-wart than build your own for low
                      volume product.

                      This has been noticable very recently because the recycling rules now
                      ban most lead solder in commercial electrical appliance (we like our
                      children smart not dumb) and with that forcing some vendors to
                      redesign/recertify old polluting products they chose to go the wallwart
                      path.

                      MTL will already be having to meet a suprisingly large number of safety
                      rules for the locomotives, the plastics used, the paint and so forth.

                      > not have the same problems legally wise as the USA, we are not that
                      > far behind. Bob Fage (in the UK)

                      We only think that, the statistics put us thankfully well behind. I just
                      wish the politicians would stop trying to catch up.
                    • Don Avila
                      Hermann; After spending over 40 years in the courtrooms throughout North America including all 50 of the United States and many locations in Canada plus many
                      Message 10 of 26 , Aug 3, 2006
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                        Hermann;

                        After spending over 40 years in the courtrooms throughout North America
                        including all 50 of the United States and many locations in Canada plus
                        many other foreign countries, I must respectively disagree with you that
                        the customer is responsible for himself. I agree it SHOULD be that way,
                        but United States is a very litigious society, and jury results sometime
                        border along the line of insanity.

                        .don

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: z_scale@yahoogroups.com [mailto:z_scale@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                        Of HermannZFriends
                        Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 12:28 PM
                        To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS

                        Dear Bob,

                        let me tell you as a former collegue ...
                        it makes a difference ... if you sell powerpack and controller as a unit
                        or as package ... or if you sell a controller and as well a transformer
                        ( whatever you will do with that transformer ) because the customer is
                        responsible for what he will do with the seperate purchased transformer
                        .... and not You !

                        :-)))) Hermann

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: bobfage2000
                        To: z_scale@yahoogroups <mailto:z_scale%40yahoogroups.com> .com
                        Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 5:46 PM
                        Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS

                        --- In z_scale@yahoogroups <mailto:z_scale%40yahoogroups.com> .com,
                        "HermannZFriends" <hermannfb@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > There's one point missing in all discussions up to now:
                        >
                        >>
                        > I think, that's also one of the reasons, Joerger ( Jeremy ) offer
                        their throttle ( ?speed contoller ? ) without any power pack and only
                        mention the 9V Batteries in their description!
                        >
                        >> Hermann
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I think you are wrong Herman..... Jeremy Brandon does supply a
                        power unit of sorts.. it allows his controllers to go from a mains
                        power step down to the 9 volts.. I have one.. I also have supplied
                        them to Australia to friends. Ok it is not directly plugged intot he
                        wall, but it is still much more than a battery and would have all the
                        implications of EEC law (I am a UK lawyer)... While we in the UK do
                        not have the same problems legally wise as the USA, we are not that
                        far behind. Bob Fage (in the UK)
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: Alan Cox
                        > To: z_scale@yahoogroups <mailto:z_scale%40yahoogroups.com> .com
                        > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 5:09 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS
                        >
                        >
                        > Ar Mer, 2006-08-02 am 05:52 +0000, ysgrifennodd choirguydotcom:
                        >
                        > > Perhaps a better plan would be a discount coupon towards the
                        purchase
                        > > of a power pack, either for the store carrying the product, or
                        > > directly from Micro-Trains.
                        >
                        > It needs to be complete. Thats something Marklin got figured out
                        right.
                        > Controller, wires, instructions, track, train and in some cases
                        even
                        > scenery kits. People will be wary of coupons and it will not work
                        for
                        > presents because they don't want to inflict the ordering hassle on
                        > others.
                        >
                        > The controller doesn't have to be *good*, it doesn't have to be
                        bulky
                        > and it doesn't even need to be mains powered. It does need to
                        meet the
                        > "assemble and it works" requirement. A little 9v battery
                        controller,
                        > with a few speed settings is quite sufficient. It will survive
                        christmas
                        > or birthday day and the rest will follow.
                        >
                        > A coupon for a matching wall-wart for when they get annoyed by the
                        > battery might well work.
                        >
                        > <Cynical MBA mode on>
                        > In fact there is a good chance people with a battery controller
                        and
                        > coupon will pay *more* for their add-on wall wart than at the
                        local
                        > superstore and do so willingly to be sure its compatible. At that
                        point
                        > the coupon is actually a business opportunity in itself.
                        > </Cyncial MBA mode off>
                        >
                        > Alan
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ----------------------------------------------------------
                        ----------
                        >
                        >
                        > No virus found in this incoming message.
                        > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                        > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/405 - Release Date:
                        01.08.2006
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >

                        ----------------------------------------------------------

                        No virus found in this incoming message.
                        Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                        Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/406 - Release Date:
                        02.08.2006

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • de Champeaux Dominique
                        ... BTW, I remember my first HO french prototype train set when I was 7. None of that now defunct manufacturer s starter set was sold with a power pack....The
                        Message 11 of 26 , Aug 3, 2006
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                          > I asked him "If
                          > Microtrains packaged a power pack in their
                          > starter sets, would that help your sales?" He said
                          > "Oh yeah -- every week I have people in
                          > condos and apartments looking at Mictotrains Z sets
                          > but they don't buy because they'd
                          > have to spend $50 to $100 on a power pack too". I
                          > know we've hashed this out on the list,
                          > but I wanted to write it so that if Joe read it, he
                          > could add it to his "empirical" collection of
                          > data for use in marketing and product planning.
                          >
                          > Russ Meier
                          > Milwaukee, WI
                          > MILW, UP, and CP in Z.



                          BTW, I remember my first HO french prototype train set
                          when I was 7. None of that now defunct manufacturer's
                          starter set was sold with a power pack....The power
                          packs always were a different feature.....

                          Dominique






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                        • HFB Z friends
                          Don ... so you agree to my arguments, that there s a difference in responsability between selling controllers and selling transformers ...as well or
                          Message 12 of 26 , Aug 3, 2006
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                            Don ...

                            so you agree to my arguments, that there's a difference in responsability
                            between
                            selling controllers and selling transformers ...as well
                            or selling a package of controller and transformer as a unit ??

                            You know, I do not speak about international markets but about the growing
                            US market !

                            Hermann


                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Don Avila" <d.f.avila@...>
                            To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                            Cc: "Don Avila" <d.f.avila@...>
                            Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 8:58 PM
                            Subject: RE: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS


                            |
                            | Hermann;
                            |
                            | After spending over 40 years in the courtrooms throughout North America
                            | including all 50 of the United States and many locations in Canada plus
                            | many other foreign countries, I must respectively disagree with you that
                            | the customer is responsible for himself. I agree it SHOULD be that way,
                            | but United States is a very litigious society, and jury results sometime
                            | border along the line of insanity.
                            |
                            | .don
                            |
                            | -----Original Message-----
                            | From: z_scale@yahoogroups.com [mailto:z_scale@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                            | Of HermannZFriends
                            | Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 12:28 PM
                            | To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                            | Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS
                            |
                            | Dear Bob,
                            |
                            | let me tell you as a former collegue ...
                            | it makes a difference ... if you sell powerpack and controller as a unit
                            | or as package ... or if you sell a controller and as well a transformer
                            | ( whatever you will do with that transformer ) because the customer is
                            | responsible for what he will do with the seperate purchased transformer
                            | .... and not You !
                            |
                            | :-)))) Hermann
                            |
                            | ----- Original Message -----
                            | From: bobfage2000
                            | To: z_scale@yahoogroups <mailto:z_scale%40yahoogroups.com> .com
                            | Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 5:46 PM
                            | Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS
                            |
                            | --- In z_scale@yahoogroups <mailto:z_scale%40yahoogroups.com> .com,
                            | "HermannZFriends" <hermannfb@...>
                            | wrote:
                            | >
                            | > There's one point missing in all discussions up to now:
                            | >
                            | >>
                            | > I think, that's also one of the reasons, Joerger ( Jeremy ) offer
                            | their throttle ( ?speed contoller ? ) without any power pack and only
                            | mention the 9V Batteries in their description!
                            | >
                            | >> Hermann
                            | >
                            | >
                            | >
                            | > I think you are wrong Herman..... Jeremy Brandon does supply a
                            | power unit of sorts.. it allows his controllers to go from a mains
                            | power step down to the 9 volts.. I have one.. I also have supplied
                            | them to Australia to friends. Ok it is not directly plugged intot he
                            | wall, but it is still much more than a battery and would have all the
                            | implications of EEC law (I am a UK lawyer)... While we in the UK do
                            | not have the same problems legally wise as the USA, we are not that
                            | far behind. Bob Fage (in the UK)
                            | >
                            | >
                            | >
                            | > ----- Original Message -----
                            | > From: Alan Cox
                            | > To: z_scale@yahoogroups <mailto:z_scale%40yahoogroups.com> .com
                            | > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 5:09 PM
                            | > Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS
                            | >
                            | >
                            | > Ar Mer, 2006-08-02 am 05:52 +0000, ysgrifennodd choirguydotcom:
                            | >
                            | > > Perhaps a better plan would be a discount coupon towards the
                            | purchase
                            | > > of a power pack, either for the store carrying the product, or
                            | > > directly from Micro-Trains.
                            | >
                            | > It needs to be complete. Thats something Marklin got figured out
                            | right.
                            | > Controller, wires, instructions, track, train and in some cases
                            | even
                            | > scenery kits. People will be wary of coupons and it will not work
                            | for
                            | > presents because they don't want to inflict the ordering hassle on
                            | > others.
                            | >
                            | > The controller doesn't have to be *good*, it doesn't have to be
                            | bulky
                            | > and it doesn't even need to be mains powered. It does need to
                            | meet the
                            | > "assemble and it works" requirement. A little 9v battery
                            | controller,
                            | > with a few speed settings is quite sufficient. It will survive
                            | christmas
                            | > or birthday day and the rest will follow.
                            | >
                            | > A coupon for a matching wall-wart for when they get annoyed by the
                            | > battery might well work.
                            | >
                            | > <Cynical MBA mode on>
                            | > In fact there is a good chance people with a battery controller
                            | and
                            | > coupon will pay *more* for their add-on wall wart than at the
                            | local
                            | > superstore and do so willingly to be sure its compatible. At that
                            | point
                            | > the coupon is actually a business opportunity in itself.
                            | > </Cyncial MBA mode off>
                            | >
                            | > Alan
                            | >
                            | >
                            | >
                            | >
                            | >
                            | >
                            | > ----------------------------------------------------------
                            | ----------
                            | >
                            | >
                            | > No virus found in this incoming message.
                            | > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                            | > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/405 - Release Date:
                            | 01.08.2006
                            | >
                            | >
                            | > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            | >
                            |
                            | ----------------------------------------------------------
                            |
                            | No virus found in this incoming message.
                            | Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                            | Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/406 - Release Date:
                            | 02.08.2006
                            |
                            | [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            |
                            |
                            |
                            | [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            |
                            |


                            ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            ----


                            No virus found in this incoming message.
                            Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                            Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/407 - Release Date: 03.08.2006
                          • Alan Cox
                            ... I did a brief survey of UK sets to see what gets sold here: - Bachmann include a controller. High end stuff a very basic DCC controller. All are wall
                            Message 13 of 26 , Aug 3, 2006
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                              > when I was 7. None of that now defunct manufacturer's
                              > starter set was sold with a power pack....The power
                              > packs always were a different feature.....

                              I did a brief survey of UK sets to see what gets sold here:


                              - Bachmann include a controller. High end stuff a very basic DCC
                              controller. All are "wall wart" plugins
                              - Hornby include a controller. Premier ("high end" adult aimed) sets
                              have a non wallwart dual controller
                              - Marklin ship a controller with their sets, varying from a naff battery
                              controller to a real one
                              - Fleischmann ship a controller
                              - Kato seems more to ship controller with track set and then train packs

                              Nobody does sets with no controller
                            • Allan Miller
                              Coming in late here, but I don t understand all the fuss being made over a transformer (actually, a power pack, I believe) for Z. Seems to me there s a real
                              Message 14 of 26 , Aug 3, 2006
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                                Coming in late here, but I don't understand all the fuss being made
                                over a transformer (actually, a power pack, I believe) for Z.

                                Seems to me there's a real need for a dedicated pack for Z scalers,
                                just as there are power packs and transformers offered by
                                manufacturers--in sets and separately--in nearly all of the other
                                scales, if not all of them. It has been that way for many years.

                                Doesn't matter to me if the pack coes as part of a set or is sold
                                separately. The need is still there, in my opinion. I wouldn't
                                expect MT to get involved in the power pack manufacturing business,
                                but it seems like someone--MRC, for example--could easily pick up the
                                ball and run with it if they determined there was a market (based on
                                more factual information than simply the desires posted on a forum or
                                elsewhere).

                                Perhaps I'm wrong about that, and the market is doing well enough
                                without that important item, but I still think it's something that has
                                been long overlooked.

                                And the safety issue is pretty much a non-issue, as I see it. I don't
                                think I've ever heard of anyone being seriously injured by using these
                                devices, including the large-output models used in Large Scale and O
                                gauge, and I've been following the hobby in several scales for many years.

                                The economics of the thing I can understand--it may simply be too
                                small a market to justify the manufacturing expense involved--but
                                consumer safety concerns, even in this highly litiguous society,
                                should certainly not be a deal breaker, at least in my opinion.
                              • dpstripe@aol.com
                                Doesn t MT still market the MRC 1300 externally modified for Z scale? Dan S. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                Message 15 of 26 , Aug 3, 2006
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                                  Doesn't MT still market the MRC 1300 "externally modified" for Z scale?
                                  Dan S.


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • bobfage2000
                                  ... unit or as package ... or if you sell a controller and as well a transformer ( whatever you will do with that transformer ) because the customer is
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Aug 4, 2006
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                                    --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "HermannZFriends" <hermannfb@...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Dear Bob,
                                    >
                                    > let me tell you as a former collegue ...
                                    > it makes a difference ... if you sell powerpack and controller as a
                                    unit or as package ... or if you sell a controller and as well a
                                    transformer ( whatever you will do with that transformer ) because
                                    the customer is responsible for what he will do with the seperate
                                    purchased transformer .... and not You !
                                    >
                                    > :-)))) Hermann
                                    >
                                    > Hi Herman,

                                    I was talking about product liabilty. for example Jeremy Brandon
                                    would still be responsible for his mains power convertor... lets say
                                    it surged (which it does not I might add). Complex legal issues. But
                                    in the UK we are still some way behind the US legal mania for asking
                                    for damages. But Marklin still issues the starter sets with a power
                                    controller in various outputs 110v for the USA to 240v for the UK and
                                    Europe so they do not see any issues. I think it is the issue of:
                                    costs v weight v warrenty v packing that will not make it attractive
                                    to companies such as MTL. I have purchased several of the MTL starter
                                    sets and the boxes are not that strong and would have to be made so
                                    and that will add a lot of cost to a product that is not that cheap
                                    (but good value). I just think Herman it is $$$$ or ££££ or Euros
                                    rather than legal issues that will decide this matter in the long
                                    run. As far as I am concerned I will get someone like Gaugemaster
                                    (based in the UK)to make a 9 v or stick with the Marklin or the Super
                                    Jorger by Jeremy Brandon.. They all do the job in different degrees.

                                    Bob Fage (in the UK)
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: bobfage2000
                                    > To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 5:46 PM
                                    > Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "HermannZFriends" <hermannfb@>
                                    > wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > There's one point missing in all discussions up to now:
                                    > >
                                    > >>
                                    > > I think, that's also one of the reasons, Joerger ( Jeremy )
                                    offer
                                    > their throttle ( ?speed contoller ? ) without any power pack and
                                    only
                                    > mention the 9V Batteries in their description!
                                    > >
                                    > >> Hermann
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > I think you are wrong Herman..... Jeremy Brandon does supply a
                                    > power unit of sorts.. it allows his controllers to go from a
                                    mains
                                    > power step down to the 9 volts.. I have one.. I also have
                                    supplied
                                    > them to Australia to friends. Ok it is not directly plugged intot
                                    he
                                    > wall, but it is still much more than a battery and would have all
                                    the
                                    > implications of EEC law (I am a UK lawyer)... While we in the UK
                                    do
                                    > not have the same problems legally wise as the USA, we are not
                                    that
                                    > far behind. Bob Fage (in the UK)
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > > From: Alan Cox
                                    > > To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 5:09 PM
                                    > > Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Ar Mer, 2006-08-02 am 05:52 +0000, ysgrifennodd choirguydotcom:
                                    > >
                                    > > > Perhaps a better plan would be a discount coupon towards the
                                    > purchase
                                    > > > of a power pack, either for the store carrying the product, or
                                    > > > directly from Micro-Trains.
                                    > >
                                    > > It needs to be complete. Thats something Marklin got figured
                                    out
                                    > right.
                                    > > Controller, wires, instructions, track, train and in some cases
                                    > even
                                    > > scenery kits. People will be wary of coupons and it will not
                                    work
                                    > for
                                    > > presents because they don't want to inflict the ordering hassle
                                    on
                                    > > others.
                                    > >
                                    > > The controller doesn't have to be *good*, it doesn't have to be
                                    > bulky
                                    > > and it doesn't even need to be mains powered. It does need to
                                    > meet the
                                    > > "assemble and it works" requirement. A little 9v battery
                                    > controller,
                                    > > with a few speed settings is quite sufficient. It will survive
                                    > christmas
                                    > > or birthday day and the rest will follow.
                                    > >
                                    > > A coupon for a matching wall-wart for when they get annoyed by
                                    the
                                    > > battery might well work.
                                    > >
                                    > > <Cynical MBA mode on>
                                    > > In fact there is a good chance people with a battery controller
                                    > and
                                    > > coupon will pay *more* for their add-on wall wart than at the
                                    > local
                                    > > superstore and do so willingly to be sure its compatible. At
                                    that
                                    > point
                                    > > the coupon is actually a business opportunity in itself.
                                    > > </Cyncial MBA mode off>
                                    > >
                                    > > Alan
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                    > ----------
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                    > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                    > > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/405 - Release Date:
                                    > 01.08.2006
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                                    ----------
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                    > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                    > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/406 - Release Date:
                                    02.08.2006
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                  • bobfage2000
                                    ... Hi Don I could not agree more. While in the UK we are heading down the USA road for litigation, the end result is that the producers of a product are
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Aug 4, 2006
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                                      --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Don Avila" <d.f.avila@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      Hi Don

                                      I could not agree more. While in the UK we are heading down the USA
                                      road for litigation, the end result is that the producers of a
                                      product are responsible ..in the UK : Sale of Goods Act and others.
                                      But I still say it is the $$$ or £££ or the Euros that dictate if a
                                      power pack is included, not the prospects of litigation. Otherwise
                                      everything we could buy would have the same problem from washing
                                      machine to cars.

                                      Bob Fage (in the UK)
                                      >
                                      > Hermann;
                                      >
                                      > After spending over 40 years in the courtrooms throughout North
                                      America
                                      > including all 50 of the United States and many locations in Canada
                                      plus
                                      > many other foreign countries, I must respectively disagree with you
                                      that
                                      > the customer is responsible for himself. I agree it SHOULD be that
                                      way,
                                      > but United States is a very litigious society, and jury results
                                      sometime
                                      > border along the line of insanity.
                                      >
                                      > .don
                                      >
                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                      > From: z_scale@yahoogroups.com [mailto:z_scale@yahoogroups.com] On
                                      Behalf
                                      > Of HermannZFriends
                                      > Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 12:28 PM
                                      > To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS
                                      >
                                      > Dear Bob,
                                      >
                                      > let me tell you as a former collegue ...
                                      > it makes a difference ... if you sell powerpack and controller as a
                                      unit
                                      > or as package ... or if you sell a controller and as well a
                                      transformer
                                      > ( whatever you will do with that transformer ) because the customer
                                      is
                                      > responsible for what he will do with the seperate purchased
                                      transformer
                                      > .... and not You !
                                      >
                                      > :-)))) Hermann
                                      >
                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > From: bobfage2000
                                      > To: z_scale@yahoogroups <mailto:z_scale%40yahoogroups.com> .com
                                      > Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 5:46 PM
                                      > Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS
                                      >
                                      > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups <mailto:z_scale%40yahoogroups.com> .com,
                                      > "HermannZFriends" <hermannfb@>
                                      > wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > There's one point missing in all discussions up to now:
                                      > >
                                      > >>
                                      > > I think, that's also one of the reasons, Joerger ( Jeremy ) offer
                                      > their throttle ( ?speed contoller ? ) without any power pack and
                                      only
                                      > mention the 9V Batteries in their description!
                                      > >
                                      > >> Hermann
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > I think you are wrong Herman..... Jeremy Brandon does supply a
                                      > power unit of sorts.. it allows his controllers to go from a mains
                                      > power step down to the 9 volts.. I have one.. I also have supplied
                                      > them to Australia to friends. Ok it is not directly plugged intot
                                      he
                                      > wall, but it is still much more than a battery and would have all
                                      the
                                      > implications of EEC law (I am a UK lawyer)... While we in the UK do
                                      > not have the same problems legally wise as the USA, we are not that
                                      > far behind. Bob Fage (in the UK)
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > > From: Alan Cox
                                      > > To: z_scale@yahoogroups <mailto:z_scale%40yahoogroups.com> .com
                                      > > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 5:09 PM
                                      > > Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Ar Mer, 2006-08-02 am 05:52 +0000, ysgrifennodd choirguydotcom:
                                      > >
                                      > > > Perhaps a better plan would be a discount coupon towards the
                                      > purchase
                                      > > > of a power pack, either for the store carrying the product, or
                                      > > > directly from Micro-Trains.
                                      > >
                                      > > It needs to be complete. Thats something Marklin got figured out
                                      > right.
                                      > > Controller, wires, instructions, track, train and in some cases
                                      > even
                                      > > scenery kits. People will be wary of coupons and it will not work
                                      > for
                                      > > presents because they don't want to inflict the ordering hassle on
                                      > > others.
                                      > >
                                      > > The controller doesn't have to be *good*, it doesn't have to be
                                      > bulky
                                      > > and it doesn't even need to be mains powered. It does need to
                                      > meet the
                                      > > "assemble and it works" requirement. A little 9v battery
                                      > controller,
                                      > > with a few speed settings is quite sufficient. It will survive
                                      > christmas
                                      > > or birthday day and the rest will follow.
                                      > >
                                      > > A coupon for a matching wall-wart for when they get annoyed by the
                                      > > battery might well work.
                                      > >
                                      > > <Cynical MBA mode on>
                                      > > In fact there is a good chance people with a battery controller
                                      > and
                                      > > coupon will pay *more* for their add-on wall wart than at the
                                      > local
                                      > > superstore and do so willingly to be sure its compatible. At that
                                      > point
                                      > > the coupon is actually a business opportunity in itself.
                                      > > </Cyncial MBA mode off>
                                      > >
                                      > > Alan
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                      > ----------
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                      > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                      > > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/405 - Release Date:
                                      > 01.08.2006
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                      >
                                      > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                      > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                      > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/406 - Release Date:
                                      > 02.08.2006
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                    • bobfage2000
                                      ... differance. Only Marklin issue a controller for Z as far as I am aware? Bob Fage (in the UK) ... battery ... packs
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Aug 4, 2006
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                                        --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Alan Cox <alan@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Alan, you are looking at HO and N sets not Z ... a world of
                                        differance. Only Marklin issue a controller for Z as far as I am
                                        aware? Bob Fage (in the UK)
                                        >
                                        > > when I was 7. None of that now defunct manufacturer's
                                        > > starter set was sold with a power pack....The power
                                        > > packs always were a different feature.....
                                        >
                                        > I did a brief survey of UK sets to see what gets sold here:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > - Bachmann include a controller. High end stuff a very basic DCC
                                        > controller. All are "wall wart" plugins
                                        > - Hornby include a controller. Premier ("high end" adult aimed) sets
                                        > have a non wallwart dual controller
                                        > - Marklin ship a controller with their sets, varying from a naff
                                        battery
                                        > controller to a real one
                                        > - Fleischmann ship a controller
                                        > - Kato seems more to ship controller with track set and then train
                                        packs
                                        >
                                        > Nobody does sets with no controller
                                        >
                                      • bobfage2000
                                        ... therefore you can get the sets. So Marklin is not the only Z gauge that comes into the UK.. I also sell on Ebay with my shop and have 190 items available
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Aug 4, 2006
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                                          --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Alan Cox <alan@...> wrote:
                                          >Alan MTL is available in the UK via some shops (there agents) and
                                          therefore you can get the sets. So Marklin is not the only Z gauge that
                                          comes into the UK.. I also sell on Ebay with my shop and have 190 items
                                          available and have in the past had the sets both for the F7 and the
                                          GP35 available - all sold without a power controller.

                                          Bob


                                          > Ar Gwe, 2006-08-04 am 07:55 +0000, ysgrifennodd bobfage2000:
                                          > > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Alan Cox <alan@> wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Alan, you are looking at HO and N sets not Z ... a world of
                                          > > differance. Only Marklin issue a controller for Z as far as I am
                                          > > aware? Bob Fage (in the UK)
                                          >
                                          > Nobody but Marklin sells Z sets into the UK. I therefore looked at
                                          > everything from LGB through OO to Z. Every manufacturer sold set aimed
                                          > at the UK market comes with a controller whatever the scale.
                                          >
                                          > The only oddity I found was Kato where you seem to buy a track set
                                          which
                                          > includes the controller and a separate train pack.
                                          >
                                          > Alan
                                          >
                                        • Alan Cox
                                          ... Nobody but Marklin sells Z sets into the UK. I therefore looked at everything from LGB through OO to Z. Every manufacturer sold set aimed at the UK market
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Aug 4, 2006
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                                            Ar Gwe, 2006-08-04 am 07:55 +0000, ysgrifennodd bobfage2000:
                                            > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Alan Cox <alan@...> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Alan, you are looking at HO and N sets not Z ... a world of
                                            > differance. Only Marklin issue a controller for Z as far as I am
                                            > aware? Bob Fage (in the UK)

                                            Nobody but Marklin sells Z sets into the UK. I therefore looked at
                                            everything from LGB through OO to Z. Every manufacturer sold set aimed
                                            at the UK market comes with a controller whatever the scale.

                                            The only oddity I found was Kato where you seem to buy a track set which
                                            includes the controller and a separate train pack.

                                            Alan
                                          • bobfage2000
                                            ... and ... the ... Alan, it is a shame that MTL do not target the UK, so I have to agree with you. But when I take MTL and AZL locos to shows and toy fairs in
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Aug 4, 2006
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                                              --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Alan Cox <alan@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Ar Gwe, 2006-08-04 am 10:01 +0000, ysgrifennodd bobfage2000:
                                              > > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Alan Cox <alan@> wrote:
                                              > > >Alan MTL is available in the UK via some shops (there agents)
                                              and
                                              > > therefore you can get the sets. So Marklin is not the only Z gauge
                                              > > that
                                              > > comes into the UK..
                                              >
                                              > Please read what I wrote. "Nobody but Marklin sells Z sets *into*
                                              the
                                              > UK"
                                              >
                                              > Yes people import MTL sets, but MTL does not itself target the UK
                                              > market.
                                              >
                                              > Alan
                                              >

                                              Alan, it is a shame that MTL do not target the UK, so I have to agree
                                              with you. But when I take MTL and AZL locos to shows and toy fairs in
                                              the UK I get a lot of interest. It is a bit like Marklin not doing UK
                                              outline engines.. a market just sitting there waiting. Which is a
                                              shame

                                              Bob
                                            • Alan Cox
                                              ... Please read what I wrote. Nobody but Marklin sells Z sets *into* the UK Yes people import MTL sets, but MTL does not itself target the UK market. Alan
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Aug 4, 2006
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                                                Ar Gwe, 2006-08-04 am 10:01 +0000, ysgrifennodd bobfage2000:
                                                > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Alan Cox <alan@...> wrote:
                                                > >Alan MTL is available in the UK via some shops (there agents) and
                                                > therefore you can get the sets. So Marklin is not the only Z gauge
                                                > that
                                                > comes into the UK..

                                                Please read what I wrote. "Nobody but Marklin sells Z sets *into* the
                                                UK"

                                                Yes people import MTL sets, but MTL does not itself target the UK
                                                market.

                                                Alan
                                              • vincentgoudreault
                                                What if MTL just printed on their starter set, in big friendly letters, a note that read thusly: You will need a power supply. MTL recommends (here a list of
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Aug 4, 2006
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                                                  What if MTL just printed on their starter set, in big friendly
                                                  letters, a note that read thusly:

                                                  You will need a power supply. MTL recommends (here a list of a few
                                                  models from a few makers, which are considered adequate)

                                                  and leave the customer to make the choice? Then anyone who can read
                                                  can have a better chance to avoid the dreaded "batteries not
                                                  included" Christmas morning trauma, and end up with a power supply
                                                  that is more likely to satisfy their need. This will also likely
                                                  have the potential buyer ask the knowledable hobby show operator for
                                                  information, and help establish good marchant-customer relations.

                                                  I mean, Z is unique in the many way it will be used by modelers, and
                                                  that would determine which power pack is more suitable. Is this
                                                  starter set only an easy way to expand an existing roster? Is it
                                                  meant for someone who eventually will have a large layout, perhaps
                                                  even with DCC? Or is a cute "layout in a briefcase" envisioned, in
                                                  which case a battery operated power pack makes a lot more sense?


                                                  CBVG
                                                • RSGRANT
                                                  BICKER BICKER BICKER LET IT DIE Jonsey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Aug 4, 2006
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                                                    BICKER BICKER BICKER LET IT DIE Jonsey

                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • de Champeaux Dominique
                                                    ... Interresting thoughts. But frankly chaps, do you think it s an issue? As I believe US are under strong rules about liability, let s say around all that
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , Aug 6, 2006
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                                                      > I was talking about product liabilty. for example
                                                      > Jeremy Brandon
                                                      > would still be responsible for his mains power
                                                      > convertor... lets say
                                                      > it surged (which it does not I might add). Complex
                                                      > legal issues. But
                                                      > in the UK we are still some way behind the US legal
                                                      > mania for asking
                                                      > for damages.....

                                                      Interresting thoughts. But frankly chaps, do you think
                                                      it's an issue? As I believe US are under strong rules
                                                      about liability, let's say around all that deals with
                                                      death or corporal accidents (even for animals), I
                                                      can't imagine a court charging a manufacturer for a
                                                      fry Z scale loco....<grin>

                                                      Dominique






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