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POWER PACKS

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  • Russ Meier
    Hello everyone: 1. I ve scanned the archives and the FAQs on this group and I ve found conflicting information. I was given an MRC Tech 4 220 power pack
    Message 1 of 26 , Aug 1, 2006
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      Hello everyone:

      1. I've scanned the archives and the FAQs on this group and I've found conflicting
      information. I was given an MRC Tech 4 220 power pack today -- new, unopened. Of
      course, as an MRC product, the literature does not state "we do not use pulse power" or
      "we do use pulse power". Thus, I went in to the archives and the FAQs looking for the
      answer and got mixed results. So, not to beat a dead horse, but can someone out there
      tell me if it is safe to use the MRC Tech 4 220 -- recognizing that the 220 produces 16 -
      17V and thus the throttle needs to be checked down below 50% most of the time. I'm
      concerned because the Microtrains GP35 insert specifically says "DO NOT USE PULSE
      POWER". This controller has momentum and braking -- cool features for those of us not
      modifying every GEEP with DCC -- but what I don't know is if they accomplish momentum
      using PWM (pulse width modulation) or a linearized incrementation of voltage (like you
      turning the handle up slowly).

      2. A week or so ago, in the topic called "How to Grow Z-Scale" the general consensus was
      "Microtrains should package a power pack with their starter sets". I did an experiment
      today at my local train guy. He DOES NOT belong to this list and HAS NOT read any of the
      comments made on this list. I asked him "If Microtrains packaged a power pack in their
      starter sets, would that help your sales?" He said "Oh yeah -- every week I have people in
      condos and apartments looking at Mictotrains Z sets but they don't buy because they'd
      have to spend $50 to $100 on a power pack too". I know we've hashed this out on the list,
      but I wanted to write it so that if Joe read it, he could add it to his "empirical" collection of
      data for use in marketing and product planning.

      Russ Meier
      Milwaukee, WI
      MILW, UP, and CP in Z.
    • Jim O'Connell
      Hello Russ, I started that thread last week. Glad to hear that you followed up at you local train shop. I hope Joe has been peeking in because with my 4 out of
      Message 2 of 26 , Aug 1, 2006
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        Hello Russ, I started that thread last week. Glad to hear that you
        followed up at you local train shop. I hope Joe has been peeking in
        because with my 4 out of 4 and your 1 for 1 hobby shops saying they
        could and would sell MTL sets with a powerpack included makes 100%! If
        someone at MTL can't see the writing on the wall, we are all in
        trouble. But MTL will be first. Cheers, Jim A New CCRR
      • choirguydotcom
        The power pack with the starter set does seem like a good idea; however, the question remains if it is economical for MicroTrains to do this. They modify MRC
        Message 3 of 26 , Aug 1, 2006
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          The power pack with the starter set does seem like a good idea;
          however, the question remains if it is economical for MicroTrains to
          do this. They modify MRC power packs and sell them
          independently...but how many starter sets do they sell, and would
          there be enough supply of power packs to include them in the starter
          sets? Additionally, add the extra cost of the power pack PLUS the
          additional cost for shipping (weight) and new packaging in the deal.
          This all probably adds up to an additional $50 per starter set, which
          (although reasonably priced for z scale) are already $200 more
          expensive than HO sets.

          Perhaps a better plan would be a discount coupon towards the purchase
          of a power pack, either for the store carrying the product, or
          directly from Micro-Trains.

          It's just an idea.

          Chris
        • Glen Chenier
          ... wrote: I was given an MRC Tech 4 220 power pack today -- new, unopened. Of ... use pulse power or ... Russ, You have just picked on one of my pet peeves.
          Message 4 of 26 , Aug 2, 2006
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            --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Russ Meier" <agentink_and_zfan@...>
            wrote:
            I was given an MRC Tech 4 220 power pack today -- new, unopened. Of
            > course, as an MRC product, the literature does not state "we do not
            use pulse power" or
            > "we do use pulse power".

            Russ,

            You have just picked on one of my pet peeves. Why is it that one can
            go to a stereo emporium and every speaker system package has the
            frequency response curve printed right on the box (for whatever its
            worth), yet model rail power pack manufacturers do not supply the
            technical details of their output waveforms and voltages in their
            product literature?

            None of my MRC power packs use square PWM 'pulse' power; all are
            variable voltage. My MRC 1400 and 1440 use interleaved half wave sine
            with variable peak voltage, my MRC 2800 has a beautiful variable DC
            level with superimposed trapezoid excursions that is great for slow
            speed, my MRC 1370s have a manufacturing defect that results in full
            wave variable peak sine instead of half wave. But with all these
            differences in the various models from the same manufacturer, you are
            wise to question the MRC Tech 4 220. Who knows?

            You have some options...

            1) Contact MRC and ask. Good luck. I gave up a long time ago with
            trying to get any customer support technical info out of them. The
            tech there was somewhat miffed when I asked if he could haul out his
            scope and make a measurement on the 1370. Maybe it was too heavy for
            him to lift off the shelf and blow the dust off it.

            2) Find someone with an oscilloscope and get them to look at the power
            pack output. Maybe you know someone who knows someone who belongs to
            a ham radio club, or attends a technical school, or works at a tech
            place where they could bring in the power pack and spend 5 minutes to
            measure its output on a scope.

            3) <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/z_scale_electronics> is attempting
            to accumulate data on various power packs and their suitability for Z
            scale. The files section there has a Peak Pulse Detection circuit
            that can be used along with a standard voltmeter to measure peak
            voltage from a power pack to at least tell you if variable or PWM.

            If you should have success with item 2), please snap some scope photos
            and post them on the Z_Scale_Electronics photos to add to the collection.
          • Jim O'Connell
            ... to ... starter ... deal. ... which ... purchase ... Chris, Good job on this posting. Let me say this. With all the feedback on this subject. With all the
            Message 5 of 26 , Aug 2, 2006
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              --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "choirguydotcom" <choirguy@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > The power pack with the starter set does seem like a good idea;
              > however, the question remains if it is economical for MicroTrains
              to
              > do this. They modify MRC power packs and sell them
              > independently...but how many starter sets do they sell, and would
              > there be enough supply of power packs to include them in the
              starter
              > sets? Additionally, add the extra cost of the power pack PLUS the
              > additional cost for shipping (weight) and new packaging in the
              deal.
              > This all probably adds up to an additional $50 per starter set,
              which
              > (although reasonably priced for z scale) are already $200 more
              > expensive than HO sets.
              >
              > Perhaps a better plan would be a discount coupon towards the
              purchase
              > of a power pack, either for the store carrying the product, or
              > directly from Micro-Trains.
              >
              > It's just an idea.
              >
              > Chris
              >
              Chris, Good job on this posting. Let me say this. With all the
              feedback on this subject. With all the seemingly overwelming
              evidence that MTL will sell more sets if they include a
              small "kitchen table top" powerpack, how can they afford NOT to? Put
              another way, let's say they sell 1000 sets without a powerpack.
              Let's say they can sell 10,000 sets with one. I hated econ in
              college, but I would say I would rather sell 10,000 sets. In the
              long run the increase in Z scalers will much more than offset the
              repackaging and shipping costs. Let's face it, MTL models North
              American and virtually all those 10,000 set buyers that stick with Z
              will purchase MORE from MTL. Then as they grow the scale they will
              more fully realize that there are other Z manufactures and hopefully
              they become spenders all over the Z market. My San Diego
              trainstores are selling $450 Marklin sets, powerpack included, year
              round and especially at Christmas time. They won't even order the
              sets from MTL. Well? I like the voucher/coupon idea. But this has
              to be able to be used before the customer leaves the store. They
              can't discover the voucher at home or under the Xmas tree. So here
              we have to rely on the sales clerks to actually do their job. Risky
              at best. Trust me on this>a shameless theft of a movie line< "If
              you put it in they will buy." Face another fact. Purchasers are lazy
              at best. You have to have it all there for them. Econ 101, day 1.
              Cheers, Jim A New CCRR
            • Alan Cox
              ... It needs to be complete. Thats something Marklin got figured out right. Controller, wires, instructions, track, train and in some cases even scenery kits.
              Message 6 of 26 , Aug 2, 2006
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                Ar Mer, 2006-08-02 am 05:52 +0000, ysgrifennodd choirguydotcom:

                > Perhaps a better plan would be a discount coupon towards the purchase
                > of a power pack, either for the store carrying the product, or
                > directly from Micro-Trains.

                It needs to be complete. Thats something Marklin got figured out right.
                Controller, wires, instructions, track, train and in some cases even
                scenery kits. People will be wary of coupons and it will not work for
                presents because they don't want to inflict the ordering hassle on
                others.

                The controller doesn't have to be *good*, it doesn't have to be bulky
                and it doesn't even need to be mains powered. It does need to meet the
                "assemble and it works" requirement. A little 9v battery controller,
                with a few speed settings is quite sufficient. It will survive christmas
                or birthday day and the rest will follow.

                A coupon for a matching wall-wart for when they get annoyed by the
                battery might well work.

                <Cynical MBA mode on>
                In fact there is a good chance people with a battery controller and
                coupon will pay *more* for their add-on wall wart than at the local
                superstore and do so willingly to be sure its compatible. At that point
                the coupon is actually a business opportunity in itself.
                </Cyncial MBA mode off>

                Alan
              • HermannZFriends
                There s one point missing in all discussions up to now: At the moment MTL is just responsable for their tracks, Locos and cars ... If they really add a
                Message 7 of 26 , Aug 3, 2006
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                  There's one point missing in all discussions up to now:

                  At the moment MTL is just responsable for their tracks, Locos and cars ...

                  If they really add a powerpack, they will not only have higher costs due to the power pack .. but they will also be responsable for any possible electrical danger !

                  I think, that's also one of the reasons, Joerger ( Jeremy ) offer their throttle ( ?speed contoller ? ) without any power pack and only mention the 9V Batteries in their description!

                  Read once the new maerklin Z brochure ( Jahrbuch ) - due to new EC laws they will discontinue the current Transformerspeedcontrollers ... and with the new starter sets the controller will be delivered with seperate a wall mount Transformer !

                  Especially in the US where u even are responsable for a hot cup of coffee and u have to pay millions of bucks if the coffee is too hot, might be that it ' s just too dangerous .. to sell starter sets with power packs !

                  rgds

                  Hermann







                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Alan Cox
                  To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 5:09 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS


                  Ar Mer, 2006-08-02 am 05:52 +0000, ysgrifennodd choirguydotcom:

                  > Perhaps a better plan would be a discount coupon towards the purchase
                  > of a power pack, either for the store carrying the product, or
                  > directly from Micro-Trains.

                  It needs to be complete. Thats something Marklin got figured out right.
                  Controller, wires, instructions, track, train and in some cases even
                  scenery kits. People will be wary of coupons and it will not work for
                  presents because they don't want to inflict the ordering hassle on
                  others.

                  The controller doesn't have to be *good*, it doesn't have to be bulky
                  and it doesn't even need to be mains powered. It does need to meet the
                  "assemble and it works" requirement. A little 9v battery controller,
                  with a few speed settings is quite sufficient. It will survive christmas
                  or birthday day and the rest will follow.

                  A coupon for a matching wall-wart for when they get annoyed by the
                  battery might well work.

                  <Cynical MBA mode on>
                  In fact there is a good chance people with a battery controller and
                  coupon will pay *more* for their add-on wall wart than at the local
                  superstore and do so willingly to be sure its compatible. At that point
                  the coupon is actually a business opportunity in itself.
                  </Cyncial MBA mode off>

                  Alan






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                  No virus found in this incoming message.
                  Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                  Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/405 - Release Date: 01.08.2006


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • bobfage2000
                  ... their throttle ( ?speed contoller ? ) without any power pack and only mention the 9V Batteries in their description! ... power unit of sorts.. it allows
                  Message 8 of 26 , Aug 3, 2006
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                    --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "HermannZFriends" <hermannfb@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > There's one point missing in all discussions up to now:
                    >
                    >>
                    > I think, that's also one of the reasons, Joerger ( Jeremy ) offer
                    their throttle ( ?speed contoller ? ) without any power pack and only
                    mention the 9V Batteries in their description!
                    >
                    >> Hermann
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I think you are wrong Herman..... Jeremy Brandon does supply a
                    power unit of sorts.. it allows his controllers to go from a mains
                    power step down to the 9 volts.. I have one.. I also have supplied
                    them to Australia to friends. Ok it is not directly plugged intot he
                    wall, but it is still much more than a battery and would have all the
                    implications of EEC law (I am a UK lawyer)... While we in the UK do
                    not have the same problems legally wise as the USA, we are not that
                    far behind. Bob Fage (in the UK)
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: Alan Cox
                    > To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 5:09 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS
                    >
                    >
                    > Ar Mer, 2006-08-02 am 05:52 +0000, ysgrifennodd choirguydotcom:
                    >
                    > > Perhaps a better plan would be a discount coupon towards the
                    purchase
                    > > of a power pack, either for the store carrying the product, or
                    > > directly from Micro-Trains.
                    >
                    > It needs to be complete. Thats something Marklin got figured out
                    right.
                    > Controller, wires, instructions, track, train and in some cases
                    even
                    > scenery kits. People will be wary of coupons and it will not work
                    for
                    > presents because they don't want to inflict the ordering hassle on
                    > others.
                    >
                    > The controller doesn't have to be *good*, it doesn't have to be
                    bulky
                    > and it doesn't even need to be mains powered. It does need to
                    meet the
                    > "assemble and it works" requirement. A little 9v battery
                    controller,
                    > with a few speed settings is quite sufficient. It will survive
                    christmas
                    > or birthday day and the rest will follow.
                    >
                    > A coupon for a matching wall-wart for when they get annoyed by the
                    > battery might well work.
                    >
                    > <Cynical MBA mode on>
                    > In fact there is a good chance people with a battery controller
                    and
                    > coupon will pay *more* for their add-on wall wart than at the
                    local
                    > superstore and do so willingly to be sure its compatible. At that
                    point
                    > the coupon is actually a business opportunity in itself.
                    > </Cyncial MBA mode off>
                    >
                    > Alan
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                    ----------
                    >
                    >
                    > No virus found in this incoming message.
                    > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                    > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/405 - Release Date:
                    01.08.2006
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • HermannZFriends
                    Dear Bob, let me tell you as a former collegue ... it makes a difference ... if you sell powerpack and controller as a unit or as package ... or if you sell a
                    Message 9 of 26 , Aug 3, 2006
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                      Dear Bob,

                      let me tell you as a former collegue ...
                      it makes a difference ... if you sell powerpack and controller as a unit or as package ... or if you sell a controller and as well a transformer ( whatever you will do with that transformer ) because the customer is responsible for what he will do with the seperate purchased transformer .... and not You !

                      :-)))) Hermann




                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: bobfage2000
                      To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 5:46 PM
                      Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS


                      --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "HermannZFriends" <hermannfb@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > There's one point missing in all discussions up to now:
                      >
                      >>
                      > I think, that's also one of the reasons, Joerger ( Jeremy ) offer
                      their throttle ( ?speed contoller ? ) without any power pack and only
                      mention the 9V Batteries in their description!
                      >
                      >> Hermann
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I think you are wrong Herman..... Jeremy Brandon does supply a
                      power unit of sorts.. it allows his controllers to go from a mains
                      power step down to the 9 volts.. I have one.. I also have supplied
                      them to Australia to friends. Ok it is not directly plugged intot he
                      wall, but it is still much more than a battery and would have all the
                      implications of EEC law (I am a UK lawyer)... While we in the UK do
                      not have the same problems legally wise as the USA, we are not that
                      far behind. Bob Fage (in the UK)
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: Alan Cox
                      > To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 5:09 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS
                      >
                      >
                      > Ar Mer, 2006-08-02 am 05:52 +0000, ysgrifennodd choirguydotcom:
                      >
                      > > Perhaps a better plan would be a discount coupon towards the
                      purchase
                      > > of a power pack, either for the store carrying the product, or
                      > > directly from Micro-Trains.
                      >
                      > It needs to be complete. Thats something Marklin got figured out
                      right.
                      > Controller, wires, instructions, track, train and in some cases
                      even
                      > scenery kits. People will be wary of coupons and it will not work
                      for
                      > presents because they don't want to inflict the ordering hassle on
                      > others.
                      >
                      > The controller doesn't have to be *good*, it doesn't have to be
                      bulky
                      > and it doesn't even need to be mains powered. It does need to
                      meet the
                      > "assemble and it works" requirement. A little 9v battery
                      controller,
                      > with a few speed settings is quite sufficient. It will survive
                      christmas
                      > or birthday day and the rest will follow.
                      >
                      > A coupon for a matching wall-wart for when they get annoyed by the
                      > battery might well work.
                      >
                      > <Cynical MBA mode on>
                      > In fact there is a good chance people with a battery controller
                      and
                      > coupon will pay *more* for their add-on wall wart than at the
                      local
                      > superstore and do so willingly to be sure its compatible. At that
                      point
                      > the coupon is actually a business opportunity in itself.
                      > </Cyncial MBA mode off>
                      >
                      > Alan
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ----------------------------------------------------------
                      ----------
                      >
                      >
                      > No virus found in this incoming message.
                      > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                      > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/405 - Release Date:
                      01.08.2006
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >






                      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------


                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                      Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                      Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/406 - Release Date: 02.08.2006


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Alan Cox
                      ... For the EU a product that is sold commercially should have an EC mark on it meaning it meets relevant safety standards, even if imported. It must also meet
                      Message 10 of 26 , Aug 3, 2006
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                        Ar Iau, 2006-08-03 am 15:46 +0000, ysgrifennodd bobfage2000:
                        > > I think you are wrong Herman..... Jeremy Brandon does supply a
                        > power unit of sorts.. it allows his controllers to go from a mains
                        > power step down to the 9 volts.. I have one.. I also have supplied
                        > them to Australia to friends. Ok it is not directly plugged intot he
                        > wall, but it is still much more than a battery and would have all the
                        > implications of EEC law (I am a UK lawyer)... While we in the UK do

                        For the EU a product that is sold commercially should have an EC mark on
                        it meaning it meets relevant safety standards, even if imported. It must
                        also meet standards of materials and recyclability. These are all much
                        like FCC approval and so forth in the USA.

                        A device which is mains powered and contains an internal mains
                        transformer has to meet a set of tests that are far more stringent than
                        those with a 9v battery (for reasons I'd hope are obvious). That makes
                        it more cost effective - as with US safety regulations - to use an
                        external ready tested mass market wall-wart than build your own for low
                        volume product.

                        This has been noticable very recently because the recycling rules now
                        ban most lead solder in commercial electrical appliance (we like our
                        children smart not dumb) and with that forcing some vendors to
                        redesign/recertify old polluting products they chose to go the wallwart
                        path.

                        MTL will already be having to meet a suprisingly large number of safety
                        rules for the locomotives, the plastics used, the paint and so forth.

                        > not have the same problems legally wise as the USA, we are not that
                        > far behind. Bob Fage (in the UK)

                        We only think that, the statistics put us thankfully well behind. I just
                        wish the politicians would stop trying to catch up.
                      • Don Avila
                        Hermann; After spending over 40 years in the courtrooms throughout North America including all 50 of the United States and many locations in Canada plus many
                        Message 11 of 26 , Aug 3, 2006
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                          Hermann;

                          After spending over 40 years in the courtrooms throughout North America
                          including all 50 of the United States and many locations in Canada plus
                          many other foreign countries, I must respectively disagree with you that
                          the customer is responsible for himself. I agree it SHOULD be that way,
                          but United States is a very litigious society, and jury results sometime
                          border along the line of insanity.

                          .don

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: z_scale@yahoogroups.com [mailto:z_scale@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                          Of HermannZFriends
                          Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 12:28 PM
                          To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS

                          Dear Bob,

                          let me tell you as a former collegue ...
                          it makes a difference ... if you sell powerpack and controller as a unit
                          or as package ... or if you sell a controller and as well a transformer
                          ( whatever you will do with that transformer ) because the customer is
                          responsible for what he will do with the seperate purchased transformer
                          .... and not You !

                          :-)))) Hermann

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: bobfage2000
                          To: z_scale@yahoogroups <mailto:z_scale%40yahoogroups.com> .com
                          Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 5:46 PM
                          Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS

                          --- In z_scale@yahoogroups <mailto:z_scale%40yahoogroups.com> .com,
                          "HermannZFriends" <hermannfb@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > There's one point missing in all discussions up to now:
                          >
                          >>
                          > I think, that's also one of the reasons, Joerger ( Jeremy ) offer
                          their throttle ( ?speed contoller ? ) without any power pack and only
                          mention the 9V Batteries in their description!
                          >
                          >> Hermann
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > I think you are wrong Herman..... Jeremy Brandon does supply a
                          power unit of sorts.. it allows his controllers to go from a mains
                          power step down to the 9 volts.. I have one.. I also have supplied
                          them to Australia to friends. Ok it is not directly plugged intot he
                          wall, but it is still much more than a battery and would have all the
                          implications of EEC law (I am a UK lawyer)... While we in the UK do
                          not have the same problems legally wise as the USA, we are not that
                          far behind. Bob Fage (in the UK)
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: Alan Cox
                          > To: z_scale@yahoogroups <mailto:z_scale%40yahoogroups.com> .com
                          > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 5:09 PM
                          > Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS
                          >
                          >
                          > Ar Mer, 2006-08-02 am 05:52 +0000, ysgrifennodd choirguydotcom:
                          >
                          > > Perhaps a better plan would be a discount coupon towards the
                          purchase
                          > > of a power pack, either for the store carrying the product, or
                          > > directly from Micro-Trains.
                          >
                          > It needs to be complete. Thats something Marklin got figured out
                          right.
                          > Controller, wires, instructions, track, train and in some cases
                          even
                          > scenery kits. People will be wary of coupons and it will not work
                          for
                          > presents because they don't want to inflict the ordering hassle on
                          > others.
                          >
                          > The controller doesn't have to be *good*, it doesn't have to be
                          bulky
                          > and it doesn't even need to be mains powered. It does need to
                          meet the
                          > "assemble and it works" requirement. A little 9v battery
                          controller,
                          > with a few speed settings is quite sufficient. It will survive
                          christmas
                          > or birthday day and the rest will follow.
                          >
                          > A coupon for a matching wall-wart for when they get annoyed by the
                          > battery might well work.
                          >
                          > <Cynical MBA mode on>
                          > In fact there is a good chance people with a battery controller
                          and
                          > coupon will pay *more* for their add-on wall wart than at the
                          local
                          > superstore and do so willingly to be sure its compatible. At that
                          point
                          > the coupon is actually a business opportunity in itself.
                          > </Cyncial MBA mode off>
                          >
                          > Alan
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ----------------------------------------------------------
                          ----------
                          >
                          >
                          > No virus found in this incoming message.
                          > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                          > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/405 - Release Date:
                          01.08.2006
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >

                          ----------------------------------------------------------

                          No virus found in this incoming message.
                          Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                          Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/406 - Release Date:
                          02.08.2006

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • de Champeaux Dominique
                          ... BTW, I remember my first HO french prototype train set when I was 7. None of that now defunct manufacturer s starter set was sold with a power pack....The
                          Message 12 of 26 , Aug 3, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            > I asked him "If
                            > Microtrains packaged a power pack in their
                            > starter sets, would that help your sales?" He said
                            > "Oh yeah -- every week I have people in
                            > condos and apartments looking at Mictotrains Z sets
                            > but they don't buy because they'd
                            > have to spend $50 to $100 on a power pack too". I
                            > know we've hashed this out on the list,
                            > but I wanted to write it so that if Joe read it, he
                            > could add it to his "empirical" collection of
                            > data for use in marketing and product planning.
                            >
                            > Russ Meier
                            > Milwaukee, WI
                            > MILW, UP, and CP in Z.



                            BTW, I remember my first HO french prototype train set
                            when I was 7. None of that now defunct manufacturer's
                            starter set was sold with a power pack....The power
                            packs always were a different feature.....

                            Dominique






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                          • HFB Z friends
                            Don ... so you agree to my arguments, that there s a difference in responsability between selling controllers and selling transformers ...as well or
                            Message 13 of 26 , Aug 3, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Don ...

                              so you agree to my arguments, that there's a difference in responsability
                              between
                              selling controllers and selling transformers ...as well
                              or selling a package of controller and transformer as a unit ??

                              You know, I do not speak about international markets but about the growing
                              US market !

                              Hermann


                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Don Avila" <d.f.avila@...>
                              To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                              Cc: "Don Avila" <d.f.avila@...>
                              Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 8:58 PM
                              Subject: RE: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS


                              |
                              | Hermann;
                              |
                              | After spending over 40 years in the courtrooms throughout North America
                              | including all 50 of the United States and many locations in Canada plus
                              | many other foreign countries, I must respectively disagree with you that
                              | the customer is responsible for himself. I agree it SHOULD be that way,
                              | but United States is a very litigious society, and jury results sometime
                              | border along the line of insanity.
                              |
                              | .don
                              |
                              | -----Original Message-----
                              | From: z_scale@yahoogroups.com [mailto:z_scale@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                              | Of HermannZFriends
                              | Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 12:28 PM
                              | To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                              | Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS
                              |
                              | Dear Bob,
                              |
                              | let me tell you as a former collegue ...
                              | it makes a difference ... if you sell powerpack and controller as a unit
                              | or as package ... or if you sell a controller and as well a transformer
                              | ( whatever you will do with that transformer ) because the customer is
                              | responsible for what he will do with the seperate purchased transformer
                              | .... and not You !
                              |
                              | :-)))) Hermann
                              |
                              | ----- Original Message -----
                              | From: bobfage2000
                              | To: z_scale@yahoogroups <mailto:z_scale%40yahoogroups.com> .com
                              | Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 5:46 PM
                              | Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS
                              |
                              | --- In z_scale@yahoogroups <mailto:z_scale%40yahoogroups.com> .com,
                              | "HermannZFriends" <hermannfb@...>
                              | wrote:
                              | >
                              | > There's one point missing in all discussions up to now:
                              | >
                              | >>
                              | > I think, that's also one of the reasons, Joerger ( Jeremy ) offer
                              | their throttle ( ?speed contoller ? ) without any power pack and only
                              | mention the 9V Batteries in their description!
                              | >
                              | >> Hermann
                              | >
                              | >
                              | >
                              | > I think you are wrong Herman..... Jeremy Brandon does supply a
                              | power unit of sorts.. it allows his controllers to go from a mains
                              | power step down to the 9 volts.. I have one.. I also have supplied
                              | them to Australia to friends. Ok it is not directly plugged intot he
                              | wall, but it is still much more than a battery and would have all the
                              | implications of EEC law (I am a UK lawyer)... While we in the UK do
                              | not have the same problems legally wise as the USA, we are not that
                              | far behind. Bob Fage (in the UK)
                              | >
                              | >
                              | >
                              | > ----- Original Message -----
                              | > From: Alan Cox
                              | > To: z_scale@yahoogroups <mailto:z_scale%40yahoogroups.com> .com
                              | > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 5:09 PM
                              | > Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS
                              | >
                              | >
                              | > Ar Mer, 2006-08-02 am 05:52 +0000, ysgrifennodd choirguydotcom:
                              | >
                              | > > Perhaps a better plan would be a discount coupon towards the
                              | purchase
                              | > > of a power pack, either for the store carrying the product, or
                              | > > directly from Micro-Trains.
                              | >
                              | > It needs to be complete. Thats something Marklin got figured out
                              | right.
                              | > Controller, wires, instructions, track, train and in some cases
                              | even
                              | > scenery kits. People will be wary of coupons and it will not work
                              | for
                              | > presents because they don't want to inflict the ordering hassle on
                              | > others.
                              | >
                              | > The controller doesn't have to be *good*, it doesn't have to be
                              | bulky
                              | > and it doesn't even need to be mains powered. It does need to
                              | meet the
                              | > "assemble and it works" requirement. A little 9v battery
                              | controller,
                              | > with a few speed settings is quite sufficient. It will survive
                              | christmas
                              | > or birthday day and the rest will follow.
                              | >
                              | > A coupon for a matching wall-wart for when they get annoyed by the
                              | > battery might well work.
                              | >
                              | > <Cynical MBA mode on>
                              | > In fact there is a good chance people with a battery controller
                              | and
                              | > coupon will pay *more* for their add-on wall wart than at the
                              | local
                              | > superstore and do so willingly to be sure its compatible. At that
                              | point
                              | > the coupon is actually a business opportunity in itself.
                              | > </Cyncial MBA mode off>
                              | >
                              | > Alan
                              | >
                              | >
                              | >
                              | >
                              | >
                              | >
                              | > ----------------------------------------------------------
                              | ----------
                              | >
                              | >
                              | > No virus found in this incoming message.
                              | > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                              | > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/405 - Release Date:
                              | 01.08.2006
                              | >
                              | >
                              | > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              | >
                              |
                              | ----------------------------------------------------------
                              |
                              | No virus found in this incoming message.
                              | Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                              | Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/406 - Release Date:
                              | 02.08.2006
                              |
                              | [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              |
                              |
                              |
                              | [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              |
                              |


                              ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                              ----


                              No virus found in this incoming message.
                              Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                              Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/407 - Release Date: 03.08.2006
                            • Alan Cox
                              ... I did a brief survey of UK sets to see what gets sold here: - Bachmann include a controller. High end stuff a very basic DCC controller. All are wall
                              Message 14 of 26 , Aug 3, 2006
                              • 0 Attachment
                                > when I was 7. None of that now defunct manufacturer's
                                > starter set was sold with a power pack....The power
                                > packs always were a different feature.....

                                I did a brief survey of UK sets to see what gets sold here:


                                - Bachmann include a controller. High end stuff a very basic DCC
                                controller. All are "wall wart" plugins
                                - Hornby include a controller. Premier ("high end" adult aimed) sets
                                have a non wallwart dual controller
                                - Marklin ship a controller with their sets, varying from a naff battery
                                controller to a real one
                                - Fleischmann ship a controller
                                - Kato seems more to ship controller with track set and then train packs

                                Nobody does sets with no controller
                              • Allan Miller
                                Coming in late here, but I don t understand all the fuss being made over a transformer (actually, a power pack, I believe) for Z. Seems to me there s a real
                                Message 15 of 26 , Aug 3, 2006
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Coming in late here, but I don't understand all the fuss being made
                                  over a transformer (actually, a power pack, I believe) for Z.

                                  Seems to me there's a real need for a dedicated pack for Z scalers,
                                  just as there are power packs and transformers offered by
                                  manufacturers--in sets and separately--in nearly all of the other
                                  scales, if not all of them. It has been that way for many years.

                                  Doesn't matter to me if the pack coes as part of a set or is sold
                                  separately. The need is still there, in my opinion. I wouldn't
                                  expect MT to get involved in the power pack manufacturing business,
                                  but it seems like someone--MRC, for example--could easily pick up the
                                  ball and run with it if they determined there was a market (based on
                                  more factual information than simply the desires posted on a forum or
                                  elsewhere).

                                  Perhaps I'm wrong about that, and the market is doing well enough
                                  without that important item, but I still think it's something that has
                                  been long overlooked.

                                  And the safety issue is pretty much a non-issue, as I see it. I don't
                                  think I've ever heard of anyone being seriously injured by using these
                                  devices, including the large-output models used in Large Scale and O
                                  gauge, and I've been following the hobby in several scales for many years.

                                  The economics of the thing I can understand--it may simply be too
                                  small a market to justify the manufacturing expense involved--but
                                  consumer safety concerns, even in this highly litiguous society,
                                  should certainly not be a deal breaker, at least in my opinion.
                                • dpstripe@aol.com
                                  Doesn t MT still market the MRC 1300 externally modified for Z scale? Dan S. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Aug 3, 2006
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Doesn't MT still market the MRC 1300 "externally modified" for Z scale?
                                    Dan S.


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • bobfage2000
                                    ... unit or as package ... or if you sell a controller and as well a transformer ( whatever you will do with that transformer ) because the customer is
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Aug 4, 2006
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "HermannZFriends" <hermannfb@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Dear Bob,
                                      >
                                      > let me tell you as a former collegue ...
                                      > it makes a difference ... if you sell powerpack and controller as a
                                      unit or as package ... or if you sell a controller and as well a
                                      transformer ( whatever you will do with that transformer ) because
                                      the customer is responsible for what he will do with the seperate
                                      purchased transformer .... and not You !
                                      >
                                      > :-)))) Hermann
                                      >
                                      > Hi Herman,

                                      I was talking about product liabilty. for example Jeremy Brandon
                                      would still be responsible for his mains power convertor... lets say
                                      it surged (which it does not I might add). Complex legal issues. But
                                      in the UK we are still some way behind the US legal mania for asking
                                      for damages. But Marklin still issues the starter sets with a power
                                      controller in various outputs 110v for the USA to 240v for the UK and
                                      Europe so they do not see any issues. I think it is the issue of:
                                      costs v weight v warrenty v packing that will not make it attractive
                                      to companies such as MTL. I have purchased several of the MTL starter
                                      sets and the boxes are not that strong and would have to be made so
                                      and that will add a lot of cost to a product that is not that cheap
                                      (but good value). I just think Herman it is $$$$ or ££££ or Euros
                                      rather than legal issues that will decide this matter in the long
                                      run. As far as I am concerned I will get someone like Gaugemaster
                                      (based in the UK)to make a 9 v or stick with the Marklin or the Super
                                      Jorger by Jeremy Brandon.. They all do the job in different degrees.

                                      Bob Fage (in the UK)
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > From: bobfage2000
                                      > To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 5:46 PM
                                      > Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "HermannZFriends" <hermannfb@>
                                      > wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > There's one point missing in all discussions up to now:
                                      > >
                                      > >>
                                      > > I think, that's also one of the reasons, Joerger ( Jeremy )
                                      offer
                                      > their throttle ( ?speed contoller ? ) without any power pack and
                                      only
                                      > mention the 9V Batteries in their description!
                                      > >
                                      > >> Hermann
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > I think you are wrong Herman..... Jeremy Brandon does supply a
                                      > power unit of sorts.. it allows his controllers to go from a
                                      mains
                                      > power step down to the 9 volts.. I have one.. I also have
                                      supplied
                                      > them to Australia to friends. Ok it is not directly plugged intot
                                      he
                                      > wall, but it is still much more than a battery and would have all
                                      the
                                      > implications of EEC law (I am a UK lawyer)... While we in the UK
                                      do
                                      > not have the same problems legally wise as the USA, we are not
                                      that
                                      > far behind. Bob Fage (in the UK)
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > > From: Alan Cox
                                      > > To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 5:09 PM
                                      > > Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Ar Mer, 2006-08-02 am 05:52 +0000, ysgrifennodd choirguydotcom:
                                      > >
                                      > > > Perhaps a better plan would be a discount coupon towards the
                                      > purchase
                                      > > > of a power pack, either for the store carrying the product, or
                                      > > > directly from Micro-Trains.
                                      > >
                                      > > It needs to be complete. Thats something Marklin got figured
                                      out
                                      > right.
                                      > > Controller, wires, instructions, track, train and in some cases
                                      > even
                                      > > scenery kits. People will be wary of coupons and it will not
                                      work
                                      > for
                                      > > presents because they don't want to inflict the ordering hassle
                                      on
                                      > > others.
                                      > >
                                      > > The controller doesn't have to be *good*, it doesn't have to be
                                      > bulky
                                      > > and it doesn't even need to be mains powered. It does need to
                                      > meet the
                                      > > "assemble and it works" requirement. A little 9v battery
                                      > controller,
                                      > > with a few speed settings is quite sufficient. It will survive
                                      > christmas
                                      > > or birthday day and the rest will follow.
                                      > >
                                      > > A coupon for a matching wall-wart for when they get annoyed by
                                      the
                                      > > battery might well work.
                                      > >
                                      > > <Cynical MBA mode on>
                                      > > In fact there is a good chance people with a battery controller
                                      > and
                                      > > coupon will pay *more* for their add-on wall wart than at the
                                      > local
                                      > > superstore and do so willingly to be sure its compatible. At
                                      that
                                      > point
                                      > > the coupon is actually a business opportunity in itself.
                                      > > </Cyncial MBA mode off>
                                      > >
                                      > > Alan
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                      > ----------
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                      > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                      > > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/405 - Release Date:
                                      > 01.08.2006
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                                      ----------
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                      > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                      > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/406 - Release Date:
                                      02.08.2006
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                    • bobfage2000
                                      ... Hi Don I could not agree more. While in the UK we are heading down the USA road for litigation, the end result is that the producers of a product are
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Aug 4, 2006
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Don Avila" <d.f.avila@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        Hi Don

                                        I could not agree more. While in the UK we are heading down the USA
                                        road for litigation, the end result is that the producers of a
                                        product are responsible ..in the UK : Sale of Goods Act and others.
                                        But I still say it is the $$$ or £££ or the Euros that dictate if a
                                        power pack is included, not the prospects of litigation. Otherwise
                                        everything we could buy would have the same problem from washing
                                        machine to cars.

                                        Bob Fage (in the UK)
                                        >
                                        > Hermann;
                                        >
                                        > After spending over 40 years in the courtrooms throughout North
                                        America
                                        > including all 50 of the United States and many locations in Canada
                                        plus
                                        > many other foreign countries, I must respectively disagree with you
                                        that
                                        > the customer is responsible for himself. I agree it SHOULD be that
                                        way,
                                        > but United States is a very litigious society, and jury results
                                        sometime
                                        > border along the line of insanity.
                                        >
                                        > .don
                                        >
                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                        > From: z_scale@yahoogroups.com [mailto:z_scale@yahoogroups.com] On
                                        Behalf
                                        > Of HermannZFriends
                                        > Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 12:28 PM
                                        > To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS
                                        >
                                        > Dear Bob,
                                        >
                                        > let me tell you as a former collegue ...
                                        > it makes a difference ... if you sell powerpack and controller as a
                                        unit
                                        > or as package ... or if you sell a controller and as well a
                                        transformer
                                        > ( whatever you will do with that transformer ) because the customer
                                        is
                                        > responsible for what he will do with the seperate purchased
                                        transformer
                                        > .... and not You !
                                        >
                                        > :-)))) Hermann
                                        >
                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > From: bobfage2000
                                        > To: z_scale@yahoogroups <mailto:z_scale%40yahoogroups.com> .com
                                        > Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 5:46 PM
                                        > Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS
                                        >
                                        > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups <mailto:z_scale%40yahoogroups.com> .com,
                                        > "HermannZFriends" <hermannfb@>
                                        > wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > There's one point missing in all discussions up to now:
                                        > >
                                        > >>
                                        > > I think, that's also one of the reasons, Joerger ( Jeremy ) offer
                                        > their throttle ( ?speed contoller ? ) without any power pack and
                                        only
                                        > mention the 9V Batteries in their description!
                                        > >
                                        > >> Hermann
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > I think you are wrong Herman..... Jeremy Brandon does supply a
                                        > power unit of sorts.. it allows his controllers to go from a mains
                                        > power step down to the 9 volts.. I have one.. I also have supplied
                                        > them to Australia to friends. Ok it is not directly plugged intot
                                        he
                                        > wall, but it is still much more than a battery and would have all
                                        the
                                        > implications of EEC law (I am a UK lawyer)... While we in the UK do
                                        > not have the same problems legally wise as the USA, we are not that
                                        > far behind. Bob Fage (in the UK)
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > > From: Alan Cox
                                        > > To: z_scale@yahoogroups <mailto:z_scale%40yahoogroups.com> .com
                                        > > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 5:09 PM
                                        > > Subject: Re: [Z_Scale] Re: POWER PACKS
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Ar Mer, 2006-08-02 am 05:52 +0000, ysgrifennodd choirguydotcom:
                                        > >
                                        > > > Perhaps a better plan would be a discount coupon towards the
                                        > purchase
                                        > > > of a power pack, either for the store carrying the product, or
                                        > > > directly from Micro-Trains.
                                        > >
                                        > > It needs to be complete. Thats something Marklin got figured out
                                        > right.
                                        > > Controller, wires, instructions, track, train and in some cases
                                        > even
                                        > > scenery kits. People will be wary of coupons and it will not work
                                        > for
                                        > > presents because they don't want to inflict the ordering hassle on
                                        > > others.
                                        > >
                                        > > The controller doesn't have to be *good*, it doesn't have to be
                                        > bulky
                                        > > and it doesn't even need to be mains powered. It does need to
                                        > meet the
                                        > > "assemble and it works" requirement. A little 9v battery
                                        > controller,
                                        > > with a few speed settings is quite sufficient. It will survive
                                        > christmas
                                        > > or birthday day and the rest will follow.
                                        > >
                                        > > A coupon for a matching wall-wart for when they get annoyed by the
                                        > > battery might well work.
                                        > >
                                        > > <Cynical MBA mode on>
                                        > > In fact there is a good chance people with a battery controller
                                        > and
                                        > > coupon will pay *more* for their add-on wall wart than at the
                                        > local
                                        > > superstore and do so willingly to be sure its compatible. At that
                                        > point
                                        > > the coupon is actually a business opportunity in itself.
                                        > > </Cyncial MBA mode off>
                                        > >
                                        > > Alan
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                        > ----------
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                        > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                        > > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/405 - Release Date:
                                        > 01.08.2006
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                        >
                                        > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                        > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                        > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/406 - Release Date:
                                        > 02.08.2006
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                      • bobfage2000
                                        ... differance. Only Marklin issue a controller for Z as far as I am aware? Bob Fage (in the UK) ... battery ... packs
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Aug 4, 2006
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Alan Cox <alan@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Alan, you are looking at HO and N sets not Z ... a world of
                                          differance. Only Marklin issue a controller for Z as far as I am
                                          aware? Bob Fage (in the UK)
                                          >
                                          > > when I was 7. None of that now defunct manufacturer's
                                          > > starter set was sold with a power pack....The power
                                          > > packs always were a different feature.....
                                          >
                                          > I did a brief survey of UK sets to see what gets sold here:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > - Bachmann include a controller. High end stuff a very basic DCC
                                          > controller. All are "wall wart" plugins
                                          > - Hornby include a controller. Premier ("high end" adult aimed) sets
                                          > have a non wallwart dual controller
                                          > - Marklin ship a controller with their sets, varying from a naff
                                          battery
                                          > controller to a real one
                                          > - Fleischmann ship a controller
                                          > - Kato seems more to ship controller with track set and then train
                                          packs
                                          >
                                          > Nobody does sets with no controller
                                          >
                                        • bobfage2000
                                          ... therefore you can get the sets. So Marklin is not the only Z gauge that comes into the UK.. I also sell on Ebay with my shop and have 190 items available
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Aug 4, 2006
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Alan Cox <alan@...> wrote:
                                            >Alan MTL is available in the UK via some shops (there agents) and
                                            therefore you can get the sets. So Marklin is not the only Z gauge that
                                            comes into the UK.. I also sell on Ebay with my shop and have 190 items
                                            available and have in the past had the sets both for the F7 and the
                                            GP35 available - all sold without a power controller.

                                            Bob


                                            > Ar Gwe, 2006-08-04 am 07:55 +0000, ysgrifennodd bobfage2000:
                                            > > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Alan Cox <alan@> wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Alan, you are looking at HO and N sets not Z ... a world of
                                            > > differance. Only Marklin issue a controller for Z as far as I am
                                            > > aware? Bob Fage (in the UK)
                                            >
                                            > Nobody but Marklin sells Z sets into the UK. I therefore looked at
                                            > everything from LGB through OO to Z. Every manufacturer sold set aimed
                                            > at the UK market comes with a controller whatever the scale.
                                            >
                                            > The only oddity I found was Kato where you seem to buy a track set
                                            which
                                            > includes the controller and a separate train pack.
                                            >
                                            > Alan
                                            >
                                          • Alan Cox
                                            ... Nobody but Marklin sells Z sets into the UK. I therefore looked at everything from LGB through OO to Z. Every manufacturer sold set aimed at the UK market
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Aug 4, 2006
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                                              Ar Gwe, 2006-08-04 am 07:55 +0000, ysgrifennodd bobfage2000:
                                              > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Alan Cox <alan@...> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > Alan, you are looking at HO and N sets not Z ... a world of
                                              > differance. Only Marklin issue a controller for Z as far as I am
                                              > aware? Bob Fage (in the UK)

                                              Nobody but Marklin sells Z sets into the UK. I therefore looked at
                                              everything from LGB through OO to Z. Every manufacturer sold set aimed
                                              at the UK market comes with a controller whatever the scale.

                                              The only oddity I found was Kato where you seem to buy a track set which
                                              includes the controller and a separate train pack.

                                              Alan
                                            • bobfage2000
                                              ... and ... the ... Alan, it is a shame that MTL do not target the UK, so I have to agree with you. But when I take MTL and AZL locos to shows and toy fairs in
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Aug 4, 2006
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                                                --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Alan Cox <alan@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Ar Gwe, 2006-08-04 am 10:01 +0000, ysgrifennodd bobfage2000:
                                                > > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Alan Cox <alan@> wrote:
                                                > > >Alan MTL is available in the UK via some shops (there agents)
                                                and
                                                > > therefore you can get the sets. So Marklin is not the only Z gauge
                                                > > that
                                                > > comes into the UK..
                                                >
                                                > Please read what I wrote. "Nobody but Marklin sells Z sets *into*
                                                the
                                                > UK"
                                                >
                                                > Yes people import MTL sets, but MTL does not itself target the UK
                                                > market.
                                                >
                                                > Alan
                                                >

                                                Alan, it is a shame that MTL do not target the UK, so I have to agree
                                                with you. But when I take MTL and AZL locos to shows and toy fairs in
                                                the UK I get a lot of interest. It is a bit like Marklin not doing UK
                                                outline engines.. a market just sitting there waiting. Which is a
                                                shame

                                                Bob
                                              • Alan Cox
                                                ... Please read what I wrote. Nobody but Marklin sells Z sets *into* the UK Yes people import MTL sets, but MTL does not itself target the UK market. Alan
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Aug 4, 2006
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                                                  Ar Gwe, 2006-08-04 am 10:01 +0000, ysgrifennodd bobfage2000:
                                                  > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Alan Cox <alan@...> wrote:
                                                  > >Alan MTL is available in the UK via some shops (there agents) and
                                                  > therefore you can get the sets. So Marklin is not the only Z gauge
                                                  > that
                                                  > comes into the UK..

                                                  Please read what I wrote. "Nobody but Marklin sells Z sets *into* the
                                                  UK"

                                                  Yes people import MTL sets, but MTL does not itself target the UK
                                                  market.

                                                  Alan
                                                • vincentgoudreault
                                                  What if MTL just printed on their starter set, in big friendly letters, a note that read thusly: You will need a power supply. MTL recommends (here a list of
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Aug 4, 2006
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                                                    What if MTL just printed on their starter set, in big friendly
                                                    letters, a note that read thusly:

                                                    You will need a power supply. MTL recommends (here a list of a few
                                                    models from a few makers, which are considered adequate)

                                                    and leave the customer to make the choice? Then anyone who can read
                                                    can have a better chance to avoid the dreaded "batteries not
                                                    included" Christmas morning trauma, and end up with a power supply
                                                    that is more likely to satisfy their need. This will also likely
                                                    have the potential buyer ask the knowledable hobby show operator for
                                                    information, and help establish good marchant-customer relations.

                                                    I mean, Z is unique in the many way it will be used by modelers, and
                                                    that would determine which power pack is more suitable. Is this
                                                    starter set only an easy way to expand an existing roster? Is it
                                                    meant for someone who eventually will have a large layout, perhaps
                                                    even with DCC? Or is a cute "layout in a briefcase" envisioned, in
                                                    which case a battery operated power pack makes a lot more sense?


                                                    CBVG
                                                  • RSGRANT
                                                    BICKER BICKER BICKER LET IT DIE Jonsey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , Aug 4, 2006
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                                                      BICKER BICKER BICKER LET IT DIE Jonsey

                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    • de Champeaux Dominique
                                                      ... Interresting thoughts. But frankly chaps, do you think it s an issue? As I believe US are under strong rules about liability, let s say around all that
                                                      Message 26 of 26 , Aug 6, 2006
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                                                        > I was talking about product liabilty. for example
                                                        > Jeremy Brandon
                                                        > would still be responsible for his mains power
                                                        > convertor... lets say
                                                        > it surged (which it does not I might add). Complex
                                                        > legal issues. But
                                                        > in the UK we are still some way behind the US legal
                                                        > mania for asking
                                                        > for damages.....

                                                        Interresting thoughts. But frankly chaps, do you think
                                                        it's an issue? As I believe US are under strong rules
                                                        about liability, let's say around all that deals with
                                                        death or corporal accidents (even for animals), I
                                                        can't imagine a court charging a manufacturer for a
                                                        fry Z scale loco....<grin>

                                                        Dominique






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