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Re: RE: Competition is great

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  • Vincent Goudreault
    Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 11:05:27 +0100 (CET) From: de Champeaux Dominique Subject: RE: Competition is great Fred you re right, but I think
    Message 1 of 15 , Jan 2, 2006
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      Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 11:05:27 +0100 (CET)
      From: de Champeaux Dominique <ddechamp71@...>
      Subject: RE: Competition is great




      Fred you're right, but I think competition is good
      when the market is broad enough. And I don't know if Z
      scale market is broad enough yet. When speaking of the
      previous competition between Marklin and MTL with
      their respective F7s, I think it's a little bit
      different, because:
      -1: Marklin was already a long established Z scale
      manufacturer, and their american line of product was
      (is) only marginal regarding their european line of
      product.
      -2: MTL indeed launched a F7, maybe taking in account
      the Marklin sample was lacking prototypical features
      and tractive effort, they took the risk, and OK, it
      worked. But they stayed very long on this niche, we
      are all aware of this, as this loco had been their
      sole motive power for 20 years.

      But now OK, Z scale is widely expanding and it's
      awesome! But I'm only fearing the market is not broad
      enough to absorb a quickly expanding line of product,
      thus driving some manufacturers to discontinue their
      production (let's remember the topic about Marklin's
      GG1 15 days or so ago).

      But I recognize, I've a trend to be sometimes a little
      bit pessimistic! And anyway, as now we have a
      scheduling, I'm vividly waiting for the SD70s and the
      Cab Fwd!

      Dominique






      Call me an eternal optimist, Dominique, but I see things
      differently. First, there are plenty of other prototypes than
      can make use of the GP35 chassis before having to get to
      the GP7 and GP9 (GP15, GP18, GP20, GP30, and let's
      not forget the GP38, the hood unit originally done by Rogue
      which sort of became AZL later, so technically speaking,
      AZL was there first with that chassis).

      Also, with just a bit of modifications, like the trucks, I am sure
      the MTL chassis could be put to use in similarly sized Alco
      locomotives.

      And even if MTL decided to go for the GP7 and GP9 despite
      AZL being already there, the fact that nearly 7000 GP7 and
      GP9 were produced means that there would be ample road
      names, reporting numbers and colour scheme variations to
      keep everyone off each other toes. Even the way AZL and
      MTL release their gear differs: MTL releases one loco per month
      (if we are lucky) with only one reporting number. If you want to
      run multiple units but insist on different reporting number, you
      must wait for a reprint. AZL releases several reporting numbers
      at the same time, and for several road names, but seems less
      eager to do reruns (I am still hoping for a CN Dash 9 someday,
      I will one day have long grain and long container unit trains
      to move) while MTL keeps its models in production until the
      mould breaks.

      I started in Z in the early 1980's, hoping for hood units to come
      soon. It took 15 years, and then Rogue folded before I could
      get a GP38 (did not have internet back then, and had other
      worries to attend to). So, I am willing to be patient. Z does grow
      because it was starving until now; if I had known it would have
      taken so long to get hood units back in 1985, perhaps I would
      have gone with N scale instead. Today, someone getting on board
      will not have to fear the lack of model, because it is here and it
      is happening. I do not believe the comparatively larger offering of
      late will cause the manufacturers to lose their shirts; actually, it
      allows Z ambassador to show how good it is, and how much better
      it will get. Z will grow because it is the future of model railroading.
      And I am willing to wait a few more years to get all I want
      (although not having to wait so long would be appreciated).


      CBVG
    • Joe DAmato
      Allan, While I can t get into the mind of Hans at AZL I know we have projects we started years and years ago and are just getting around to finishing. Many
      Message 2 of 15 , Jan 2, 2006
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        Allan,

        While I can't get into the mind of Hans at AZL I know we have
        projects we started years and years ago and are just getting around
        to finishing. Many reasons to do so, what the market is like and
        what kind of resources we/they have. I wish I could post the cost
        of developing an engine, but can't..if you knew everyone would
        understand sometimes you need to generate some income to pay for the
        tooling.

        I also believe in competition, but hope that we can all work
        together as manufacturers to provide the best variety of subject and
        the best prices. I can tell you the motor in our GP-35 was a huge
        part of the cost, but we decided it was better to absorb some of the
        margin on that to keep intrest high and sales the same. I would
        imagion that AZL saw the cost of tooling brass engines vs doing them
        in Plastic forcing unit prices above what the "normal" modeler can
        pay. I want to grow the scale, and have committed to it at MTL, and
        to do that I need to provide product that is affordable and what the
        most want.

        Joe
        MTL

        --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Allan Miller" <almiller@v...> wrote:
        >
        > I was kind of wondering the same thing. I can understand a couple
        of
        > years, but five years seems an inordinate amount of time for what
        is
        > admittedly a new design, but one which does not incorporate
        anything
        > really revolutionary in terms of the technology involved.
        >
        > But I wish them--and all Z manufacturers--well as they try to
        cater to
        > our diverse tastes and interests. And I'll likely buy one or more
        of
        > the AZL GEEPS if they produce it in a roadname that interest me
        and at
        > a price that I think is appropriate for such a model (as MT
        managed to
        > do).
        >
        > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, d.f.avila@a... wrote:
        > >
        > > I am <<NOT>> taking sides here, but curiosity makes me ask what
        > takes FIVE years to develop a Z engine?? Heck they built the
        Queen
        > Elizabeth II in just over two years.
        > >
        >
      • randy smidt
        What I am interested in seeing is performance versus price. If two different manufacturers produce the same model, how do performance and price compare. For
        Message 3 of 15 , Jan 2, 2006
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          What I am interested in seeing is performance versus price. If two different manufacturers produce the same model, how do performance and price compare. For example, Marklin's F7 costs more and doesn't perform as well as the MTL F7 (I know the performance issue may start a flame war, so I'll say "in my opinion"). Take this a step further, IF both AZL and MTL were to produce GP7's and GP9's, would the AZL perform better than or cost more than MTL's? Would the AZL GP7/9 be able to run with an MTL F7 as a matched set like they did on prototype railroads? Might one be more detailed (but possibly accordingly more expensive)? Who knows. May be MTL will pursure a GP7 still, may be not, may be 15 years from now (after Z scale has taken over the model railroading world ;-) and the market is bigger. And I think the Gp7 and 9 may have worn more paint schemes than any other loco to have ridden the rails. Don't forget rebuilds. I think there are probably more GP9 rebuilds still running
          on the rails today than there are GP35's still running.

          It's all speculation at this point.

          There are plenty of other locos that MTL could do with the GP35 (or slightly modified) chassis. And Vincent, you left out all those GE's like U boats. An Alco road switcher would be pretty cool though. Anyone for a Century?

          Randy Smidt

          Vincent Goudreault <vgoudreault@...> wrote:

          Call me an eternal optimist, Dominique, but I see things
          differently. First, there are plenty of other prototypes than
          can make use of the GP35 chassis before having to get to
          the GP7 and GP9 (GP15, GP18, GP20, GP30, and let's
          not forget the GP38, the hood unit originally done by Rogue
          which sort of became AZL later, so technically speaking,
          AZL was there first with that chassis).

          Also, with just a bit of modifications, like the trucks, I am sure
          the MTL chassis could be put to use in similarly sized Alco
          locomotives.

          And even if MTL decided to go for the GP7 and GP9 despite
          AZL being already there, the fact that nearly 7000 GP7 and
          GP9 were produced means that there would be ample road
          names, reporting numbers and colour scheme variations to
          keep everyone off each other toes. Even the way AZL and
          MTL release their gear differs: MTL releases one loco per month
          (if we are lucky) with only one reporting number. If you want to
          run multiple units but insist on different reporting number, you
          must wait for a reprint. AZL releases several reporting numbers
          at the same time, and for several road names, but seems less
          eager to do reruns (I am still hoping for a CN Dash 9 someday,
          I will one day have long grain and long container unit trains
          to move) while MTL keeps its models in production until the
          mould breaks.

          CBVG


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Vincent Goudreault
          Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 19:50:35 -0800 (PST) From: randy smidt Subject: Re: Re: RE: Competition is great (...) There are plenty of other
          Message 4 of 15 , Jan 3, 2006
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            Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 19:50:35 -0800 (PST)
            From: randy smidt <randy@...>
            Subject: Re: Re: RE: Competition is great

            (...)


            There are plenty of other locos that MTL could do with the GP35 (or
            slightly modified) chassis. And Vincent, you left out all those GE's like U
            boats. An Alco road switcher would be pretty cool though. Anyone for a
            Century?

            Randy Smidt



            On purpose. I am under the impression that GE's U units are longer, and that
            the trucks wheelbase is greater; not so with the Alco. I'd love to see some
            U's, but they may require a bit more work than the Alco's.


            CBVG
          • de Champeaux Dominique
            ... Unless maybe the U18B, but as far as I know it s a very small series, only a few samples.... Dominique
            Message 5 of 15 , Jan 6, 2006
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              > On purpose. I am under the impression that GE's U
              > units are longer, and that
              > the trucks wheelbase is greater;
              >
              > CBVG

              Unless maybe the U18B, but as far as I know it's a
              very small series, only a few samples....

              Dominique






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