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Re: Z locomotives and cars from Japan

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  • bscaro
    Hi Harald Yes, people were a little more cavalier about scales in the 60s, and didn t worry about creating all sorts of compromises like British TT -3mm/ft
    Message 1 of 14 , Jun 1 9:18 AM
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      Hi Harald

      Yes, people were a little more 'cavalier' about scales in the 60s,
      and didn't worry about creating all sorts of compromises like British
      TT -3mm/ft etc and 1:148.

      While the Japanese market is now wedded to its compromise
      scale/gauge, the industry there is so prolific that I would be
      surprised if eventually someone doesn't have a go at Nn3 - which is
      now a pretty well established scale.

      I would not remotely expect Zm or Zn3.5 though, that would really be
      pioneer territory !

      Cheers

      Ben

      >
      > these days - yes. But Japanese N-scale started to grow up in the
      1960ies.
      > At this time nobody talked about Z-scale and 6.5 mm track.
      > Now neither the Japanese Modelrailroad industry is willing to scrap
      their
      > expensive 1:150/ 9mm tooling nor Japanese N-scaler would be willing
      to scrap their
      > collection to start new with Nn3.5.
      >
      > For Japanese Z it is similar but not identical. 1:220 Japanese Z
      would require
      > a mass produced "plug and play" track system of about 5.0 mm gauge.
      To be quite
      > honest: No manufacturer is willing to cover the risk for this
      adventure. A track
      > system with cheap tooling needs very good craftsman skills for
      track laying - such as
      > ASPEN Zm/Zn3. This kind of track is no base to make Japanese Z
      popular. This is
      > a craftmen challenge for talented Zm-modelers only.
      >
      > Harald
      > --
      >
    • Robert Toole
      Gee Ben, I thought that it was primarly Switzerland that used meter guage. After reading your posting and looking of old photo that I took back in the 60 s
      Message 2 of 14 , Jun 1 11:22 AM
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        Gee Ben,
        I thought that it was primarly Switzerland that used
        meter guage. After reading your posting and looking
        of old photo that I took back in the 60's during the
        Vietnam Era, I was staioned at Bangkok and remember
        ridding the trains on my days off. I didn't realize
        that that track was meter guage, I was more interested
        in taking pictures of the steam engines that they were
        still running and the "Kings Train" that was kept on
        the siding beside the main depot in Bangkok.
        Robert

        --- bscaro <bscaro@...> wrote:

        > Hi Dan, I'm aware of the scale being larger, it's
        > often 1:150 or even
        > 1:140.
        >
        > I think the reason was the same as the British - eg
        > a need to fit the
        > motors available when N scale started into the
        > prototypically smaller
        > Japanese loco bodies - given modern narrow gauge
        > locos are typically
        > 75% of the size of standard gauge in real life.
        >
        > Here's a metre gauge Thai diesel with a BN GE unit
        > to show the
        > comparison:
        >
        > http://www.locopage.net/rsr-4523.jpg
        >
        > However, these days smaller mechanisms are available
        > and so there's
        > no need to up the scale.
        >
        > And given Nn3 is established as regards standards,
        > gauge, etc, 1:160
        > on Z gauge track - scaling to 3'4" gauge - would
        > make Nn3 a suitable
        > scale for Japanese 3'6" modelling - and provide a
        > lot of useful Z
        > gauge bits and pieces as a side issue !
        >
        > Not to mention it would give a kickstart to
        > modelling in the many
        > countries that use either 3', metre or 3'6" as their
        > gauge.
        >
        > That includes lots of Central and South America, all
        > SE Asian
        > countries, Japan, Taiwan, a fair whack of India,
        > about half of
        > Australia, all of New Zealand and far and away the
        > majority of
        > Africa.
        >
        > Ben
        >
        >
        > > Ben,
        > > I believe that is why the Japanese use different
        > scales. In order
        > to use the
        > > same guage track as everyone else, they had to
        > shift the scaling of
        > Japanese
        > > prototype models. Their prototype rail spacing is
        > narrower than
        > ours.
        > > Dan S
        > >
        > > In a message dated 5/31/2005 8:05:42 AM Eastern
        > Daylight Time,
        > > bscaro@y... writes:
        > > Hi all
        > >
        > > It is kind of odd that the Japanese don't use the
        > combination
        > > available these days of N scale and Z track -Nn3,
        > or Nn3.5 in this
        > > case - to model Japanese trains on 3'6" - which
        > would be most
        > > prototypical of all, and which would probably not
        > require fiddling
        > > about with scale.
        > >
        > > Cheers
        > >
        > > Ben
        > >
        > >
        > > Considering everything in Japan is
        > > > a bit smaller (including the Cape gauge of 1067
        > mm) Japanese Z
        > with
        > > 1/200
        > > > appears a bit more tiny than regular European
        > and American Z of
        > > 1/220!!!
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
        > removed]
        >
        >
        >


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      • Robert Toole
        Oh, I forgot, I didn t get the opportunity to ride from Bangkok to Singapore on the train, bummer. Robert ... __________________________________ Discover
        Message 3 of 14 , Jun 1 11:24 AM
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          Oh, I forgot, I didn't get the opportunity to ride
          from Bangkok to Singapore on the train, bummer.
          Robert

          --- bscaro <bscaro@...> wrote:

          > Hi Dan, I'm aware of the scale being larger, it's
          > often 1:150 or even
          > 1:140.
          >
          > I think the reason was the same as the British - eg
          > a need to fit the
          > motors available when N scale started into the
          > prototypically smaller
          > Japanese loco bodies - given modern narrow gauge
          > locos are typically
          > 75% of the size of standard gauge in real life.
          >
          > Here's a metre gauge Thai diesel with a BN GE unit
          > to show the
          > comparison:
          >
          > http://www.locopage.net/rsr-4523.jpg
          >
          > However, these days smaller mechanisms are available
          > and so there's
          > no need to up the scale.
          >
          > And given Nn3 is established as regards standards,
          > gauge, etc, 1:160
          > on Z gauge track - scaling to 3'4" gauge - would
          > make Nn3 a suitable
          > scale for Japanese 3'6" modelling - and provide a
          > lot of useful Z
          > gauge bits and pieces as a side issue !
          >
          > Not to mention it would give a kickstart to
          > modelling in the many
          > countries that use either 3', metre or 3'6" as their
          > gauge.
          >
          > That includes lots of Central and South America, all
          > SE Asian
          > countries, Japan, Taiwan, a fair whack of India,
          > about half of
          > Australia, all of New Zealand and far and away the
          > majority of
          > Africa.
          >
          > Ben
          >
          >
          > > Ben,
          > > I believe that is why the Japanese use different
          > scales. In order
          > to use the
          > > same guage track as everyone else, they had to
          > shift the scaling of
          > Japanese
          > > prototype models. Their prototype rail spacing is
          > narrower than
          > ours.
          > > Dan S
          > >
          > > In a message dated 5/31/2005 8:05:42 AM Eastern
          > Daylight Time,
          > > bscaro@y... writes:
          > > Hi all
          > >
          > > It is kind of odd that the Japanese don't use the
          > combination
          > > available these days of N scale and Z track -Nn3,
          > or Nn3.5 in this
          > > case - to model Japanese trains on 3'6" - which
          > would be most
          > > prototypical of all, and which would probably not
          > require fiddling
          > > about with scale.
          > >
          > > Cheers
          > >
          > > Ben
          > >
          > >
          > > Considering everything in Japan is
          > > > a bit smaller (including the Cape gauge of 1067
          > mm) Japanese Z
          > with
          > > 1/200
          > > > appears a bit more tiny than regular European
          > and American Z of
          > > 1/220!!!
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
          > removed]
          >
          >
          >




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