Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Dumb Question

Expand Messages
  • zbarr474
    I realize this question is about as smart as asking how high is up , but what is an average or typical price that a railroad might pay for some of the new
    Message 1 of 8 , May 1, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      I realize this question is about as smart as asking "how high is up",
      but what is an "average" or "typical" price that a railroad might pay
      for some of the new mainline engines with and without all the "extras"
      that we see around the countryside? Also if you have a BAD accident
      is there apt to be any salvage value other than scrap metal.

      ...don
    • jim_manley_alpha_six
      Hi Don and All the Other Dandy DudetteZ n DudeZ, The average cost of a brand-spanking-new GE or EMD diesel-electric locomotive is about $2 million today, but,
      Message 2 of 8 , May 1, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Don and All the Other Dandy DudetteZ 'n DudeZ,

        The average cost of a brand-spanking-new GE or EMD diesel-electric
        locomotive is about $2 million today, but, as with any other mode of
        transportation, your mileage may vary a few hundred thousand dollars
        either way, depending on options (which I'm sure includes things like
        dealer prep, undercoating, rust-proofing, a moon roof ... The
        big-ticket options in reality are, as with everything else these days,
        in the electronics (including computer control for max fuel
        efficiency, which in some cases includes - are you sitting down? -
        WindoZe XP! Yikes!).

        The really big deal in loco technology lately, as in autos, is hybrid
        diesel/battery technology (yep, a Toyota Prius with a ~1,600
        horsepower prime mover!). The federal EPA has finally gotten around
        to mandating that the railroads get with the pollution-reduction
        program, and hybrids are the obvious choice, especially when it comes
        to switching in urban areas. One switcher (and they tend to be the
        oldest and worst polluters) can generate as much pollution as about
        7,000 modern automobiles, and that's pretty bad. Hybrids make a lot
        of sense for this application, because swithchers spend the vast
        majority of their time accelerating from a stop (when DC motors have
        the most torque - at stall), doing a lot of braking (which regenerates
        most of the energy back into the batteries), and otherwise driving
        along at relatively low speeds that electric motors are pretty good at
        handling. When the batteries run low enough, or the speed demand gets
        high enough, the diesel starts up and does its thing at up to full RPM
        (and therefore, max efficiency) until the batteries are charged, or
        the speed demand drops back down to "city driving". The companies
        that are making them can't do so fast enough, just like with the
        hybrid cars. Since they're not big road hogs, the price tags are down
        in the sub-million buck range, but the cost of all those batteries and
        the electronics, as in a Prius or Civic hybrid, makes them initially
        more expensive than an old-tech switcher does. However, as you might
        expect, the fuel savings are even more substantial, proportionately,
        compared with the autos, so they will probably pay for their higher
        price tags in fairly short order.

        As for scrap recovery, I would say the railroads are second only to
        the naval and merchant marine shipping industries in getting the most
        mileage out of old equipment (and having served on WW-II era ships
        over 50 years after they were commissioned, that's still saying a
        lot). Basically, if something can be righted, bent back into shape,
        rewired, welded, patched, screwed, glued, stitched or otherwise
        mended, it will be. When a loco falls off the tracks, the thing of
        most value is the engine, followed by the generators and motors, then
        probably the frame, the trucks, and the control electronics. The
        bodies/shells are just sheet steel, and there are plenty of body shop
        folks in the depots to bang them back into shape when they get
        dented/mangled. The components of a loco are all pretty robust, so
        unless something gets completely cracked/split/shredded beyond repair,
        it's going to get recycled back into operating equipment, sooner or
        later, and probably sooner. As I pointed out above, switchers,
        especially road switchers, are the old actresses of the industry -
        they get smaller and less significant bit parts until they are
        eventually unceremoniously sold for scrap, and they're generally well
        beyond being operational at that point, having anything that still
        works scavenged/cannibalized for use on other equipment. The
        railroads should get some kind of recycling award, that's for sure.
        Even most of the scrap metal is pretty useful high-yield steel, copper
        from the motors, and lots of good ol' resmeltable iron.

        BTW, as far as I'm concerned, there are no dumb questionZ here - just
        dumb answerZ, like mine! I have lots of my own dumb questionZ, and
        have kept the geniuseZ here entertained for years on end.

        All Z BeZt,
        Jim


        --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "zbarr474" <d.f.avila@a...> wrote:
        > I realize this question is about as smart as asking "how high is
        > up", but what is an "average" or "typical" price that a railroad
        > might pay for some of the new mainline engines with and without all
        > the "extras" that we see around the countryside? Also if you have a
        > BAD accident is there apt to be any salvage value other than scrap
        > metal.
        >
        > ...don
      • Don
        Thanks for all those tidbits. Windoze XP was a real surprise. I guess Billy Gates is really going to run everything. I can just see a piece of spam working
        Message 3 of 8 , May 2, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          Thanks for all those tidbits. Windoze XP was a real surprise. I guess
          Billy Gates is really going to run everything. I can just see a piece
          of spam working its way in and messing up signal control. Couldn't a
          trackside hacker have a field day. Scary!

          Actually the price doesn't seem as high as I thought it might be. The
          basic power equipment seems fairly simple, but all the electronics and
          controls must cost a real bundle.

          Again thanks for a couple of eye openers.

          Don

          -----Original Message-----
          From: z_scale@yahoogroups.com [mailto:z_scale@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
          Of jim_manley_alpha_six
          Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 1:47 AM
          To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: Dumb Question

          Hi Don and All the Other Dandy DudetteZ 'n DudeZ,

          The average cost of a brand-spanking-new GE or EMD diesel-electric
          locomotive is about $2 million today, but, as with any other mode of
          transportation, your mileage may vary a few hundred thousand dollars
          either way, [snip]
        • randy smidt
          Hey Jim, Technically ALL diesel electric locomotives are hybrids(second most numerous application is marine power plants/transmissions). The term hybrid
          Message 4 of 8 , May 2, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            Hey Jim,

            Technically ALL diesel electric locomotives are hybrids(second most numerous application is marine power plants/transmissions). The term "hybrid" refers to a mechanical power source with a non-mechanical (dissimilar) drive train - the electric motors. I laugh when people get all excited about "new" hybrid technology - this technology has been in use since the 1930's, just not in automobiles. You are correct though in pointing out that the new interesting twist is using smaller engines to charge batteries (as well as regenerative technology).

            Another new energy efficiency option on locomotives is using small engines(sort of like an APU), separate from the prime mover, to run auxillary systems like pumps and oil heaters to keep liquid lines from freezing, etc. rather using keeping the prime mover idling to do the same thing. Gives great fuel savings (what the RR's care about) and lower emissions (what the EPA cares about).

            Randy Smidt


            jim_manley_alpha_six <jim.manley@...> wrote:
            Hi Don and All the Other Dandy DudetteZ 'n DudeZ,

            The average cost of a brand-spanking-new GE or EMD diesel-electric
            locomotive is about $2 million today, but, as with any other mode of
            transportation, your mileage may vary a few hundred thousand dollars
            either way, depending on options (which I'm sure includes things like
            dealer prep, undercoating, rust-proofing, a moon roof ... The
            big-ticket options in reality are, as with everything else these days,
            in the electronics (including computer control for max fuel
            efficiency, which in some cases includes - are you sitting down? -
            WindoZe XP! Yikes!).

            The really big deal in loco technology lately, as in autos, is hybrid
            diesel/battery technology (yep, a Toyota Prius with a ~1,600
            horsepower prime mover!). The federal EPA has finally gotten around
            to mandating that the railroads get with the pollution-reduction
            program, and hybrids are the obvious choice, especially when it comes
            to switching in urban areas. One switcher (and they tend to be the
            oldest and worst polluters) can generate as much pollution as about
            7,000 modern automobiles, and that's pretty bad. Hybrids make a lot
            of sense for this application, because swithchers spend the vast
            majority of their time accelerating from a stop (when DC motors have
            the most torque - at stall), doing a lot of braking (which regenerates
            most of the energy back into the batteries), and otherwise driving
            along at relatively low speeds that electric motors are pretty good at
            handling. When the batteries run low enough, or the speed demand gets
            high enough, the diesel starts up and does its thing at up to full RPM
            (and therefore, max efficiency) until the batteries are charged, or
            the speed demand drops back down to "city driving". The companies
            that are making them can't do so fast enough, just like with the
            hybrid cars. Since they're not big road hogs, the price tags are down
            in the sub-million buck range, but the cost of all those batteries and
            the electronics, as in a Prius or Civic hybrid, makes them initially
            more expensive than an old-tech switcher does. However, as you might
            expect, the fuel savings are even more substantial, proportionately,
            compared with the autos, so they will probably pay for their higher
            price tags in fairly short order.

            As for scrap recovery, I would say the railroads are second only to
            the naval and merchant marine shipping industries in getting the most
            mileage out of old equipment (and having served on WW-II era ships
            over 50 years after they were commissioned, that's still saying a
            lot). Basically, if something can be righted, bent back into shape,
            rewired, welded, patched, screwed, glued, stitched or otherwise
            mended, it will be. When a loco falls off the tracks, the thing of
            most value is the engine, followed by the generators and motors, then
            probably the frame, the trucks, and the control electronics. The
            bodies/shells are just sheet steel, and there are plenty of body shop
            folks in the depots to bang them back into shape when they get
            dented/mangled. The components of a loco are all pretty robust, so
            unless something gets completely cracked/split/shredded beyond repair,
            it's going to get recycled back into operating equipment, sooner or
            later, and probably sooner. As I pointed out above, switchers,
            especially road switchers, are the old actresses of the industry -
            they get smaller and less significant bit parts until they are
            eventually unceremoniously sold for scrap, and they're generally well
            beyond being operational at that point, having anything that still
            works scavenged/cannibalized for use on other equipment. The
            railroads should get some kind of recycling award, that's for sure.
            Even most of the scrap metal is pretty useful high-yield steel, copper
            from the motors, and lots of good ol' resmeltable iron.

            BTW, as far as I'm concerned, there are no dumb questionZ here - just
            dumb answerZ, like mine! I have lots of my own dumb questionZ, and
            have kept the geniuseZ here entertained for years on end.

            All Z BeZt,
            Jim


            --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "zbarr474" wrote:
            > I realize this question is about as smart as asking "how high is
            > up", but what is an "average" or "typical" price that a railroad
            > might pay for some of the new mainline engines with and without all
            > the "extras" that we see around the countryside? Also if you have a
            > BAD accident is there apt to be any salvage value other than scrap
            > metal.
            >
            > ...don





            -Z- WARNING! HANDLE WITH CARE! Highly addictive in Small DoseZ!

            Yahoo! Groups Links









            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Bill Hoshiko
            ... other than scrap metal. ... Hi Don, Go to this link and scroll to the bottom of the page. Read the comments just above the photo.
            Message 5 of 8 , May 2, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              "zbarr474" <d.f.avila@a...> wrote:

              > Also if you have a BAD accident is there apt to be any salvage value
              other than scrap metal.
              >
              > ...don

              Hi Don,

              Go to this link and scroll to the bottom of the page. Read the
              comments just above the photo.

              http://krugtales.50megs.com/rrpictale/GP60/GP60a.htm

              If you have the time to spend go here:

              http://krugtales.50megs.com/rrpictale/rrpictale.htm

              Great stories with great photos. I use some of them for my desktop.

              If you are short on time at least read this one:

              http://krugtales.50megs.com/rrpictale/steam700/steam700a.htm

              I guess that this is the third week that I have been reading Krug's
              tales. I am not even 1/4 way through.

              If you do not like his stories and photos, you do not like trains.

              Bill H
              El Toro, Ca
            • Don
              I bumped into this site about a month ago and sent an E-Mail to Krug saying that I thought he had the best collections of photographs from more than 95% of the
              Message 6 of 8 , May 2, 2005
              • 0 Attachment
                I bumped into this site about a month ago and sent an E-Mail to Krug
                saying that I thought he had the best collections of photographs from
                more than 95% of the photos on the web. The reason they are so good is
                that they are taken from vantage points that only a train engineer can
                get to, while the rest of us are outside looking in from the roadway or
                down from a bridge. ...plus he is really funny. He had one story about
                "doing it" by the "book" where if you read the book word by word, there
                is no correct way -- unless the loco sprouts wings or a propeller etc.
                Anyway, I looked at every one of his photos over a two week period. For
                anyone else, take the time and scroll though his photos. He has some
                views that are really unique plus you'll get some great ideas for
                scenery. In addition he also has some train information that I'm
                willing to bet you have never seen before.

                Don

                -----Original Message-----
                From: z_scale@yahoogroups.com [mailto:z_scale@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                Of Bill Hoshiko
                Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 10:40 AM
                To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [Z_Scale] BAD accident and no scrap

                "zbarr474" <d.f.avila@a...> wrote:

                > Also if you have a BAD accident is there apt to be any salvage value
                other than scrap metal.
                >
                > ...don

                Hi Don,

                Go to this link and scroll to the bottom of the page. Read the
                comments just above the photo.

                http://krugtales.50megs.com/rrpictale/GP60/GP60a.htm

                If you have the time to spend go here:

                http://krugtales.50megs.com/rrpictale/rrpictale.htm

                Great stories with great photos. I use some of them for my desktop.

                If you are short on time at least read this one:

                http://krugtales.50megs.com/rrpictale/steam700/steam700a.htm

                I guess that this is the third week that I have been reading Krug's
                tales. I am not even 1/4 way through.

                If you do not like his stories and photos, you do not like trains.

                Bill H
                El Toro, Ca
              • Bill Hoshiko
                Thanks Don, http://krugtales.50megs.com/rrpictale/rrpictale.htm It will take me more than a month to go through all of them. So much to learn. Western
                Message 7 of 8 , May 3, 2005
                • 0 Attachment
                  Thanks Don,

                  http://krugtales.50megs.com/rrpictale/rrpictale.htm

                  It will take me more than a month to go through all of them. So much
                  to learn. Western railroading at its best.

                  Bill H
                  El Toro, Ca
                • Joe Krepps
                  This site is *well* worth the visit. I do suggest, however, that you ve got something faster than a 56k dialup. Excellent, big photos taken by a real
                  Message 8 of 8 , May 3, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                    This site is *well* worth the visit. I do suggest, however, that you've
                    got something faster than a 56k dialup.

                    Excellent, big photos taken by a real railroader complete with stories.
                    Think of it as an Internet based "Trains" magazine. It's that good.

                    I haven't visited the site for a while, for fear of losing interest in
                    my beloved Western Maryland Ry. & European trains.

                    > Western railroading at its best.

                    That would be my _only_ unhappiness with the site - it's all western.
                    Still, it's perfect for non-U.S. modelers as a resource for modeling
                    today's western U.S. mainline scene.

                    The URL merits a repeat for those stumbling onto this thread:
                    http://krugtales.50megs.com/rrpictale/rrpictale.htm
                    Don't let the simple, basic home page fool you into thinking it's not a
                    great site...it is!

                    Joe
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.