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Locomotive current demands

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  • BJKRONEN@xxx.xxx
    To All: We have made some observations here, with the combined ownership of some 40 z scale locomotives (4 of us), and I wonder if anyone else has noticed it?
    Message 1 of 13 , Jul 3, 1999
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      To All:

      We have made some observations here, with the combined ownership of some 40 z
      scale locomotives (4 of us), and I wonder if anyone else has noticed it?

      In an effort to determine the safe operating range for our locomotives (some
      locos where getting really hot), we ran across the following test:

      a. Put the loco on a short test track against a soft bumper at one end
      b. Turn the power up until the loco spins its wheels (only do this for a
      second)
      c. Note the current draw from the powerpack (in milliamps)

      What we found is:

      Marklin locos draw from 300 to 400 milliamps at 6 volts
      Marklin locos in bad need of cleaning/oiling draw 400-500 milliamps at 6 volts
      and - they run hot....VERY hot
      and - when oiled properly, they drop back to 300/400 milliamps

      MicroTrains F7's draw 400-500 milliamps at 6 volts
      but MT's are heaver locos, bigger motors, and pull twice as many cars
      sorry, we didn't have one in bad shape to identify its overcurrent points

      What we are looking for it a go/no-go test at shows BEFORE we put a loco out
      there and burn it up.

      Since motor current demands are affected by load (number of cars/wagons)
      there is no clear definition of what a "standard" load might be. We "think"
      wheel slip represent the maximum load condition on a loco. We "think" it
      represents that point where any more cars/wagons cannot be pulled by that
      particular loco. In any case, it would be the same point for a given loco
      every time.

      Comments please? A better way? Are we on a fool's path?

      Bill Kronenberger
      Houston, Texas
    • Jacob Munkhammar
      ... Actually, maximum load isn t when the wheels spin. To explain this I ll have to give a crash course about friction. There are two types of friction. I do
      Message 2 of 13 , Jul 3, 1999
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        >From: BJKRONEN@...
        >
        >Since motor current demands are affected by load (number of cars/wagons)
        >there is no clear definition of what a "standard" load might be. We "think"
        >wheel slip represent the maximum load condition on a loco. We "think" it
        >represents that point where any more cars/wagons cannot be pulled by that
        >particular loco. In any case, it would be the same point for a given loco
        >every time.
        >
        >Comments please? A better way? Are we on a fool's path?
        >

        Actually, maximum load isn't when the wheels spin. To explain this I'll
        have to give a crash course about friction.

        There are two types of friction. I do not know their English names, but
        I'll try to explain anyway.
        One friction is the "gliding friction". It is the resistance an object
        gives while *moved* over a surface.
        The other friction is the "threshold friction". This is the resistance an
        object gives when it is stationary and you *try* to move it.
        The "threshold friction" is always higher that the "gliding friction",
        often much higher.

        This is easily illustrated with car tyres. Once the wheels lock, we have
        much less braking power. This is the princible behing anti-lock breaks;
        they keep the wheels at just about locking, that is where friction is
        greatest.

        Another way to easily test this is to put an un-powered loco on a long
        piece of rail, then lift one end of the rail. You can lift it quite high
        before it slips, but once it is moving you don't need much angle at all to
        keep it moving.
        Friction is actually measured as this angle - or rather, these two angles.
        The other angle, for "glide friction", is the angle where the loco stops
        again.

        So, when you meassure a spinning loco, it is only encountering "gliding
        friction". Before a moving, loaded train starts spinning, it must be
        subjected to a load that makes it pass the "threshold friction".

        And after this lenghly lecture, do I have a way to measure current demand
        at maximum load? No. None other than to put weights on a freight car till
        just before the loco slips.

        I hope this helped more than confused.

        /Jacob
      • BJKRONEN@xxx.xxx
        ... You ve had better luck that we have. I have not one, but two, Marklin steamers that striped their worm gear to pieces, due to the assumption they were
        Message 3 of 13 , Jul 5, 1999
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          Steve:

          > I do admit though that Z locos get quite hot when run over longish periods.
          > Having said that, this I assume is catered for in their design as I've
          > never had one stop or burn out due to overheating.

          You've had better luck that we have. I have not one, but two, Marklin
          steamers that striped their worm gear to pieces, due to the "assumption"
          they were properly lubricated from the factory. They were both brand new.
          How dumb can I get? And it only took a few minutes of running to do it.

          A lot of z locomotives which have been stored for many years (and the oil
          turned to concrete) have overheated and burned up. Locos with bad brushes
          can eat the commutators in the motors. Grime in the gearbox can be just as
          fatal. All of these conditions tend to cause the locos to draw more than
          normal current.

          There are some really nice folks in Florida, who spend 30 hours a week
          digging junk out of locos (for others). I would bet that they would be the
          first to agree that 10 year old oil is as bad as, or worse, than no oil at
          all.

          I'd be the first to agree, that with PROPER maintenance, Marklin and
          MicroTrains locomotives will last forever. The concern we have for ourselves
          (and our guest runners), is that someone will put a poorly
          lubricated/maintained loco on the track, and watch it die before their eyes.
          Or make the same "assumption" I did.

          Hence, the desire to compare notes with others to see if a check of current
          demands can be used as a "quick check" before its too late.

          Regards

          Bill Kronenberger
          Houston
        • Jeffrey MacHan
          I have to agree with Bill on this one. I have purchased four or five Märklin steamers off the shelves of hobby stores. They were sold as new but from my
          Message 4 of 13 , Jul 5, 1999
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            I have to agree with Bill on this one. I have purchased four or five
            M�rklin steamers off the shelves of hobby stores. They were sold as new but
            from my examination of them, they had all been sitting around for anywhere
            from 5 to 9 years!

            As you can imagine, the lubrication had evaporated and the resin that was
            left made burning out a motor practically a sure bet. In fact, I found out
            the hard way with the first one that I bought. Fortunately for me, M�rklin
            USA replaced the motor under warranty.

            Subsequently, I cleaned out the old muck and lubricated the engines before
            putting them into service on the Val Ease Central. The locos on my layout
            run continuously for 2-3 hours at a time so they do tend to get hot.
            However, with proper cleaning and lubrication they have given me solid
            performance over the years. They will be running some more at the National
            Train Show, July 23-25 in Saint Paul. (Am I repeating myself enough yet?)

            P.S. I have also added weight to all my motive power, except the MT's in
            the belief that every little bit helps. To hedge my bets, I also use Relco
            high frequency AC track cleaning units on the layout.

            P.P.S. Thank you Simon for adding the SAR of Hong Kong to our list of
            Countries. That brings the total to 11!

            Cheers,
            Jeffrey


            >
            >I'd be the first to agree, that with PROPER maintenance, Marklin and
            >MicroTrains locomotives will last forever. The concern we have for
            >ourselves
            >(and our guest runners), is that someone will put a poorly
            >lubricated/maintained loco on the track, and watch it die before their
            >eyes.
            >Or make the same "assumption" I did.
          • BJKRONEN@xxx.xxx
            Hi All: During the summer, I raised this topic and got about as much interest in it as watching the grass grow. But that was the off-season for trains, and
            Message 5 of 13 , Dec 31, 1999
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              Hi All:

              During the summer, I raised this topic and got about as much interest in it
              as watching the grass grow. But that was the off-season for trains, and the
              list did not have the 100 plus members it does now.

              I still feel the topic is of value, especially to those who only infrequently
              run their locomotives. Or worse, run them and watch the motors burn up in a
              few minutes.

              I'll try the issue one more time. While we have become believer's in it down
              here, I would really be interested to see if our findings compare with anyone
              else's.

              Bill Kronenberger
              Houston

              -=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Summer Rerun Follows -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

              To All:

              We have made some observations here, with the combined ownership of some 40 z
              scale locomotives (4 of us), and I wonder if anyone else has noticed it?

              In an effort to determine the safe operating range for our locomotives (some
              locos where getting really hot), we ran across the following test:

              a. Put the loco on a short test track against a soft bumper at one end
              b. Turn the power up until the loco spins its wheels (only do this for a
              second)
              c. Note the current draw from the powerpack (in milliamps)

              What we found is:

              Marklin locos draw from 300 to 400 milliamps at 6 volts
              Marklin locos in bad need of cleaning/oiling draw 400-500 milliamps at 6 volts
              and - they run hot....VERY hot
              and - when oiled properly, they drop back to 300/400 milliamps

              MicroTrains F7's draw 400-500 milliamps at 6 volts
              sorry, we didn't have one in bad shape to identify its overcurrent points

              What we are looking for it a go/no-go test at shows BEFORE we put a loco out
              there and burn it up.

              Since motor current demands are affected by load (number of cars/wagons)
              there is no clear definition of what a "standard" load might be. We "think"
              wheel slip represents the maximum load condition on a loco. We "think" it
              represents that point where any more cars/wagons cannot be pulled by that
              particular loco. In any case, it would be the same point for a given loco
              every time.

              Comments please? A better way? Are we on a fool's path?

              Bill Kronenberger
              Houston, Texas
            • Jeffrey Masiello
              well so far I have a whopping ONE loco and i don t wanna mess with it too much. I also don t have a volt meter aside from touching my tongue to the trackto see
              Message 6 of 13 , Dec 31, 1999
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                well so far I have a whopping ONE loco and i don't wanna mess with it
                too much. I also don't have a volt meter aside from touching my tongue
                to the trackto see if I get a jolt like with 9volts. I suppose I'm not
                quite clear on what we're checking here though.

                BJKRONEN@... wrote:
                >
                > From: BJKRONEN@...
                >
                > Hi All:
                >
                > During the summer, I raised this topic and got about as much interest in it
                > as watching the grass grow. But that was the off-season for trains, and the
                > list did not have the 100 plus members it does now.
                >
                > I still feel the topic is of value, especially to those who only infrequently
                > run their locomotives. Or worse, run them and watch the motors burn up in a
                > few minutes.
                >
                > I'll try the issue one more time. While we have become believer's in it down
                > here, I would really be interested to see if our findings compare with anyone
                > else's.
                >
                > Bill Kronenberger
                > Houston
                >
                > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Summer Rerun Follows -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
                >
                > To All:
                >
                > We have made some observations here, with the combined ownership of some 40 z
                > scale locomotives (4 of us), and I wonder if anyone else has noticed it?
                >
                > In an effort to determine the safe operating range for our locomotives (some
                > locos where getting really hot), we ran across the following test:
                >
                > a. Put the loco on a short test track against a soft bumper at one end
                > b. Turn the power up until the loco spins its wheels (only do this for a
                > second)
                > c. Note the current draw from the powerpack (in milliamps)
                >
                > What we found is:
                >
                > Marklin locos draw from 300 to 400 milliamps at 6 volts
                > Marklin locos in bad need of cleaning/oiling draw 400-500 milliamps at 6 volts
                > and - they run hot....VERY hot
                > and - when oiled properly, they drop back to 300/400 milliamps
                >
                > MicroTrains F7's draw 400-500 milliamps at 6 volts
                > sorry, we didn't have one in bad shape to identify its overcurrent points
                >
                > What we are looking for it a go/no-go test at shows BEFORE we put a loco out
                > there and burn it up.
                >
                > Since motor current demands are affected by load (number of cars/wagons)
                > there is no clear definition of what a "standard" load might be. We "think"
                > wheel slip represents the maximum load condition on a loco. We "think" it
                > represents that point where any more cars/wagons cannot be pulled by that
                > particular loco. In any case, it would be the same point for a given loco
                > every time.
                >
                > Comments please? A better way? Are we on a fool's path?
                >
                > Bill Kronenberger
                > Houston, Texas
                >
                > > CraZy 'bout Zee!

                --
                Jeff Masiello - Level I Technician - Customer Services
                masiello@... - 301 847 5082 (fax)
                24-hour Support Line - 301 847 5200 or (800) 581-8711
                Intermedia Communications Business Internet
              • Bim Bousman
                Answering a question with a question... What do you use to measure current??? I know that it is a milliammeter or ammeter, but do you recommend and
                Message 7 of 13 , Dec 31, 1999
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                  Answering a question with a question...

                  What do you use to measure current???

                  I know that it is a milliammeter or ammeter, but do you recommend and
                  manufacturer / model number, etc???

                  Is there something that I can get at Radio Shack or elsewhere for a
                  reasonable price to use at home???

                  Bim B

                  BJKRONEN@... wrote:
                  >
                  > From: BJKRONEN@...
                  >
                  > Hi All:
                  >
                  > During the summer, I raised this topic and got about as much interest in it
                  > as watching the grass grow. But that was the off-season for trains, and the
                  > list did not have the 100 plus members it does now.
                  >
                  > I still feel the topic is of value, especially to those who only infrequently
                  > run their locomotives. Or worse, run them and watch the motors burn up in a
                  > few minutes.
                  >
                  > I'll try the issue one more time. While we have become believer's in it down
                  > here, I would really be interested to see if our findings compare with anyone
                  > else's.
                  >
                  > Bill Kronenberger
                  > Houston
                  >
                  > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Summer Rerun Follows -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
                  >
                  > To All:
                  >
                  > We have made some observations here, with the combined ownership of some 40 z
                  > scale locomotives (4 of us), and I wonder if anyone else has noticed it?
                  >
                  > In an effort to determine the safe operating range for our locomotives (some
                  > locos where getting really hot), we ran across the following test:
                  >
                  > a. Put the loco on a short test track against a soft bumper at one end
                  > b. Turn the power up until the loco spins its wheels (only do this for a
                  > second)
                  > c. Note the current draw from the powerpack (in milliamps)
                  >
                  > What we found is:
                  >
                  > Marklin locos draw from 300 to 400 milliamps at 6 volts
                  > Marklin locos in bad need of cleaning/oiling draw 400-500 milliamps at 6 volts
                  > and - they run hot....VERY hot
                  > and - when oiled properly, they drop back to 300/400 milliamps
                  >
                  > MicroTrains F7's draw 400-500 milliamps at 6 volts
                  > sorry, we didn't have one in bad shape to identify its overcurrent points
                  >
                  > What we are looking for it a go/no-go test at shows BEFORE we put a loco out
                  > there and burn it up.
                  >
                  > Since motor current demands are affected by load (number of cars/wagons)
                  > there is no clear definition of what a "standard" load might be. We "think"
                  > wheel slip represents the maximum load condition on a loco. We "think" it
                  > represents that point where any more cars/wagons cannot be pulled by that
                  > particular loco. In any case, it would be the same point for a given loco
                  > every time.
                  >
                  > Comments please? A better way? Are we on a fool's path?
                  >
                  > Bill Kronenberger
                  > Houston, Texas
                  >
                  > > CraZy 'bout Zee!
                • Jeffrey MacHan
                  Hi Bill, I ll be able to give you a reading on a MT F7, actually, 4 F7 s, shortly as I just finished installing a DC Voltmeter and Ampmeter in an enclosure for
                  Message 8 of 13 , Dec 31, 1999
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                    Hi Bill,

                    I'll be able to give you a reading on a MT F7, actually, 4 F7's, shortly as
                    I just finished installing a DC Voltmeter and Ampmeter in an enclosure for
                    the VEC controls. Normally I wouldn't have bothered but it is the last
                    requirement for the Electrical certificate.

                    My F7s can easily be considered well run in and probably in need of some
                    cleaning.

                    Wheel slip is my choice for the point of measurement.

                    I'll be in touch in the next couple of days with the results.

                    CheerZ,
                    Jeffrey MacHan
                  • BJKRONEN@xxx.xxx
                    ... There are two nightmares you can have with any model train in any scale: 1. Burn out the motor (with too high a voltage, or some types of pulse power) 2.
                    Message 9 of 13 , Dec 31, 1999
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                      Jeffrey and Bim:

                      >Jeffrey: I suppose I'm not quite clear on what we're checking here though.

                      There are two nightmares you can have with any model train in any scale:

                      1. Burn out the motor (with too high a voltage, or some types of pulse power)

                      2. Have a dysfunctional mechanism that gives you frustrating performance and
                      overloads the motor until it burns out, or tears up the gears.

                      The question at hand addresses the detection of # 2 before it is too late.
                      With all my 12% knowledge I claim to have, I calmly put a brand new Marklin
                      steamer on the tracks a year ago and watched it tear itself apart at a show.
                      Dumb. Dumber than dumb. I "assumed" a brand new loco was properly oiled. I
                      know better.

                      What are some of the things that we have found inside locos:
                      - - - - - - - - -
                      Dirt and grime
                      Excessive grease/oil - or - No oil at all
                      Oil that has turned into concrete from age
                      Strings, pieces of wire and springs
                      Ballast, pieces of scenery, rolling stock, or even parts of the loco itself
                      Unidentified gummy "stuff"
                      Misassembled gear stacks, idlers, worms
                      Brushes completely worn out
                      Brushes far too tight on the commutator (acts like a brake on the motor)
                      Screws
                      Bent shafts and gears
                      Animal hair
                      Bad electrical connections
                      , etc., etc., etc.

                      No, we do not store our equipment rolling loose in the trunk (boot) of our
                      cars. While they have clean storage, they run on layouts. Layouts always
                      have some kind of loose "stuff" on them. There is no better track cleaning
                      device known than a loco itself. If its loose, the loco will pick it up and
                      digest it.

                      I have bought locos from others which appeared to have been stored outside in
                      a horse barn.

                      The amazing thing, is that locos will desperately try to run with all this
                      "stuff" inside of them. Or at least for a while. Until the motor or the
                      gears give up.

                      Anything on the list above, will try to prevent the motor from turning at its
                      normal speed. This will cause the motor to draw more current. That can be
                      seen on a meter, without a disassembly of the loco to check for all these
                      problems.

                      The idea is to see if a "benchmark" for normal current, at a specific
                      voltage, under repeatable load conditions can be established for a quick
                      check BEFORE someone puts a loco on the track.

                      > Bim: What do you use to measure current???

                      Most folks know that a volt meter measures electrical pressure expressed in
                      volts. In order to make that measurement one puts the meter in PARALLEL with
                      the power pack, the rails or the loco.

                      In order to measure current, one has to put a meter in SERIES with the power
                      pack. Since the polarity of the power back can be reversed, a "zero center"
                      meter is appropriate. That means a meter that at rest, will have its pointer
                      in the middle of the scale, and not off to the left side like most meters. A
                      meter with 1amp-zero-1amp offers a usable reading, but can survive a dead
                      short across the rails. Remember, any current (including a short) will pass
                      through the meter on the way to the rails in a series connection.

                      Likewise, a "zero center" voltmeter is quite appropriate too. Again, because
                      the power pack can reverse the polarity to the rails.

                      If interest develops, any one of several of us on the list can put together a
                      list of parts from common (cheap) resources that folks can buy and use, with
                      little or no electrical knowledge. A number of how-to books already have
                      this information.

                      But let's see if anyone agrees with the "normal" readings and the "test
                      procedure" before we advance to that step.

                      Who's next at the keyboard on this topic?

                      Bill Kronenberger
                      Houston
                    • Ole.Rosted@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
                      ... [snip] ... Me! But I m not at all sure, that my question is relevant in the context. - What about the inner resistance of the ammeter? Is it a specific
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jan 1, 2000
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                        On Fri, 31 Dec 1999 22:52:42 EST, you wrote:

                        >From: BJKRONEN@...
                        >

                        Bill and group:

                        >Jeffrey and Bim:
                        >
                        >>Jeffrey: I suppose I'm not quite clear on what we're checking here though.

                        [snip]

                        >Who's next at the keyboard on this topic?

                        Me! But I'm not at all sure, that my question is relevant in the
                        context.

                        - What about the inner resistance of the ammeter?

                        Is it a specific relationship between inner resistance of loco and
                        ammeter that will produce produce the readings mentioned? And does the
                        loco resistance vary with rotational speed - so that you will get
                        varying milli-amp readings depending on the point where wheel-spin
                        sets in (wheels and tracks not beeing 100% clean and friction/weight
                        relationship)?

                        I guess everyone will see immediately, that I do not know a lot about
                        these things! But....?

                        BTW: the lights on my locos only turns on at a voltage where the
                        current consumption makes the loco rather hot?? (Marklin locos)

                        regards Ole Rosted, Denmark
                      • Ed Scullin
                        To Bill B and the list. I don t remember seeing anything on whether or not the track should be level, and would it be possible to use wheel slip at a specific
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jan 1, 2000
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                          To Bill B and the list.
                          I don't remember seeing anything on whether or not the track should be
                          level, and would it be possible to use wheel slip at a specific angle?
                          I have my test track with a hinge on one end and a jack screw on the
                          other so I can see how a loco will do on a grade.
                          Have you or anybody tried using the "cheap" digital multimeters from
                          Radio Shack etc as the source of current reading?
                          Is there any place (database) that we could put our data into, and all
                          get at? Somebody that has a web site to act as a server, but I don't
                          know about having external data input to a database on the net. Don't
                          want to burden the web site owner with having to manually input
                          everybodys inputs.
                          Ed Scullin
                        • BJKRONEN@xxx.xxx
                          ... We just kept it simple. Flat and level for the wheel slip current test. I d suggest computing grades may be more than some folks want to get involved
                          Message 12 of 13 , Jan 1, 2000
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                            Ed:

                            > I don't remember seeing anything on whether or not the track should be
                            > level, and would it be possible to use wheel slip at a specific angle?

                            We just kept it simple. Flat and level for the wheel slip current test. I'd
                            suggest computing grades may be more than some folks want to get involved
                            with.

                            > Have you or anybody tried using the "cheap" digital multimeters from
                            > Radio Shack , etc., as the source of current reading?

                            Yup, and its a problem. Digital meters sample the current a few times a
                            second and display the results. More you pay, more samples per second.
                            Problem is, there are a lot of variables and the digital meters tend to not
                            have a consistent reading, rather the numbers on the meter just bounce around
                            like you were playing roulette.

                            But good old analog meters tend not to do that, and the needle stabilizes on
                            a fixed point on the scale, so you can read it.

                            > Is there any place (database) that we could put our data into, and all
                            > get at?

                            What about the archives of the OneList itself? There are a number of folders
                            already there.

                            *** Jeffrey MacHan: How does that work, list owner? ****

                            Regards,
                            Bill Kronenberger
                            Houston
                          • John L. Battey
                            Sorry if dredging up ancient history offends anyone ... ... though. ... pulse power) ... performance and ... late. A goal to which I aspire most vigorously!
                            Message 13 of 13 , May 13 10:40 AM
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                              Sorry if dredging up ancient history offends anyone ...

                              --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, Dec 31, 1999, 9:52 pm,
                              BJKRONEN@... wrote:
                              >
                              > Jeffrey and Bim:
                              >
                              > >Jeffrey: I suppose I'm not quite clear on what we're checking here
                              though.
                              >
                              > There are two nightmares you can have with any model train in any scale:
                              >
                              > 1. Burn out the motor (with too high a voltage, or some types of
                              pulse power)
                              >
                              > 2. Have a dysfunctional mechanism that gives you frustrating
                              performance and
                              > overloads the motor until it burns out, or tears up the gears.
                              >
                              > The question at hand addresses the detection of # 2 before it is too
                              late.

                              A goal to which I aspire most vigorously!


                              > > Bim: What do you use to measure current???
                              >
                              > Most folks know that a volt meter measures electrical pressure
                              expressed in
                              > volts. In order to make that measurement one puts the meter in
                              PARALLEL with
                              > the power pack, the rails or the loco.
                              >
                              > In order to measure current, one has to put a meter in SERIES with
                              the power
                              > pack. Since the polarity of the power back can be reversed, a "zero
                              center"
                              > meter is appropriate. That means a meter that at rest, will have
                              its pointer
                              > in the middle of the scale, and not off to the left side like most
                              meters. A
                              > meter with 1amp-zero-1amp offers a usable reading, but can survive a
                              dead
                              > short across the rails. Remember, any current (including a short)
                              will pass
                              > through the meter on the way to the rails in a series connection.
                              >
                              > Likewise, a "zero center" voltmeter is quite appropriate too.
                              Again, because
                              > the power pack can reverse the polarity to the rails.
                              >
                              > If interest develops, any one of several of us on the list can put
                              together a
                              > list of parts from common (cheap) resources that folks can buy and
                              use, with
                              > little or no electrical knowledge. A number of how-to books already
                              have
                              > this information.
                              >
                              > But let's see if anyone agrees with the "normal" readings and the "test
                              > procedure" before we advance to that step.
                              >
                              > Who's next at the keyboard on this topic?
                              >
                              > Bill Kronenberger
                              > Houston

                              What I would like to do is set up dual meters (Volts & Amps) for each
                              of my power packs, or integrate the meters into a Z Bend Track control
                              connecter. Where would I get the information as to parts & assembly
                              for this project?

                              John L. Battey in Roanoke, TX
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