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Re: [Z_Scale] Re: Realism or lack of it ( I agrre and dis agree)

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  • Tom Fisher
    I don t think anyone has said that Marklin has no right to make a profit or to produce in China. ... __________________________________________________ Do You
    Message 1 of 24 , Mar 1, 2005
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      I don't think anyone has said that Marklin has no
      right to make a profit or to produce in China.


      --- kd79ctls <kd79ctls@...> wrote:

      >
      > ---Hi
      > I got to say I agree and disagree with all. Marklin
      > is a company out
      > to make money ( the bottom line). If they have to
      > raise prices to pay
      > the bills and move factory over to other countries
      > they will. Every
      > Company here in America does that and no one here
      > complains until to
      > there gone. Why should they be any different.
      > I personally think they should have two line like
      > most big HO company
      > do. One high end with good engine, high detail and
      > limited runs and
      > one lower with somewhat a lower price tag. Then you
      > and mix and match
      > the line for different price points and keep all
      > happy.
      > I like to have both lower priced engines and higher
      > one. Lower one
      > you can modify without thinking of the money you
      > could lose and if
      > you take them somewhere you doesn't worry about
      > something happening
      > to them. Higher one to collect and run at home as
      > the jewel of your
      > collection and your railroad.
      > Kevin
      >
      >
      >
      >


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    • Don
      There was a long story in BUSINESS WEEK a few weeks ago that discussed some of the problems General Motors was having because labor was working about a 30 hour
      Message 2 of 24 , Mar 1, 2005
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        There was a long story in BUSINESS WEEK a few weeks ago that discussed
        some of the problems General Motors was having because labor was working
        about a 30 hour week and wanted to work LESS. That just might run the
        cost of goods / pricing up a tad.

        Don

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Jeffrey MacHan [mailto:jmac_han@...]
        Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 12:19 PM
        To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: Realism or lack of it (Was: Märklin Price
        Increase of 19% for 2005)



        Hello Tapani,

        [snip]

        But the toy industry is changing rapidly and Märklin is feeling the
        heat from cheaper, overseas production. It now appears that 2/3 of
        toy train production comes from China. In fact, Märklin's management
        feels that the company is faced with "extinction".

        "We have tried as much as possible to keep our production in
        Germany", said Maerklin boss Paul Adams. "So we raised our prices
        and now we find ourselves in a situation where the market no longer
        accepts them".
        Food for thought,
        Jeffrey MacHan
      • harold grady
        Sgt. Tim, those are words very well spoken. Marklin is serious about the American market but not serious enough. What it amounts to is too little too late.
        Message 3 of 24 , Mar 1, 2005
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          Sgt. Tim, those are words very well spoken.
          Marklin is serious about the American market but
          not serious enough. What it amounts to is too little
          too late. They are not flexible in seeing changing
          consumer demands. They are extremely rigid.
          Harold Grady
          --- sgt_tim7 <sgt_tim1@...> wrote:

          >
          > --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "zscaleinfo"
          > <trains@z...> wrote:
          > If
          > > M�rklin pulls the plug, it will be the end of
          > z-scale for
          > everyone.
          >
          >
          > I disagree!! And so will alot others. Z scale is
          > here to stay and
          > as far as I am concerned, Marklin can close their
          > doors. I know
          > that will disappoint many of you, but not me. I
          > will not purchase
          > any of their products and Price has nothing to do
          > with it.
          >
          > Marklin has stood around for years only making that
          > F7 goofy looking
          > loco while leaving the rest of us begging them and
          > the world to make
          > a Modern version of a US locomotive. Finally, AZL
          > has broken ground
          > and they haven't stopped running yet. MTL has
          > recognized this are
          > are wanting a bigger piece of the action.
          >
          > I am a modern U.S. modeller and Marklins U.S. stuff
          > is rediculous.
          > Odd couplers, trucks set too far back, doesn't look
          > prototypical
          > (Despite what some say), and just doesn't appeal to
          > me. I will
          > admit to a select few Locomotives and rolling stock
          > looking OK.
          >
          > Before you know it, and it is coming fast, Marklin
          > will be fighting
          > for the U.S. market. It is apparent to me, by the
          > comments I am
          > reading about what people are saying at these Train
          > Shows about how
          > amazed they are that NEW U.S. Items, modern, are
          > finally being
          > produced. Z scales problem is plain and simple, we
          > are not getting
          > due media coverage. Give us an hour on National TV
          > and we, the Z
          > community, will grow by leaps and bounds.
          >
          > I applaud the new comers. So much to produce and
          > not much
          > competition. Heck, AZL and MTL are working together
          > to not step on
          > each others toes with the U.S. Locomotives they are
          > producing, MTL
          > is starting to dedicate more assets to "Z" and their
          > are smaller up-
          > and-coming companies out their. If Marklin stops
          > making Z, it won't
          > bother me!
          > My 2 cents to your comment.
          >
          > Tim
          >
          >
          >
          >




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        • de Champeaux Dominique
          ... It s exactly the same for me..... Dominique Découvrez le nouveau Yahoo! Mail : 250 Mo d espace de stockage pour vos mails ! Créez votre Yahoo! Mail sur
          Message 4 of 24 , Mar 2, 2005
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            --- Tom Fisher <tfisher10@...> a écrit :
            >
            > Why would MTL, which exclusively models N. Am.
            > prototypes, fail if Marklin went down especially
            > since
            > MTL is coming out with its own track?
            >
            > I have 1 Marlin tanker and 2 small diesel-hydraulic
            > locos from Marklin. I could live without them. On
            > the
            > other hand, if it wasn't for MTL, Penzee, Robert
            > Ray,
            > FR, and AZL, I wouldn't own Z.

            It's exactly the same for me.....
            Dominique






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          • Ralph Scott
            Actually Marklin is the middle of the road when it comes to European model train manufactures. There are plenty of other large European companies whose prices
            Message 5 of 24 , Mar 2, 2005
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              Actually Marklin is the middle of the road when it comes to
              European model train manufactures. There are plenty of other large
              European companies whose prices are much higher but so is their
              quality. Marklin bashers also should remember who started commercial
              Z scale in the 1st place and the fact that it was aimed at the
              european maket as 1st priority. It wasnt until repeated requests
              from the US that the US outline was started. So I think if you bash
              it too much you will lose it then we will see who stands on their
              own.
              If you think Marklin is expensive in the US then then try buying it
              in New Zealand and then try buying MTL in New Zealand. Its all
              relative ! - apart from their coupler design ( which can be
              interchanged with MTL/KD and Jorger) marklin Z is an excellent
              product with excellent reliability and robustness.
              Ralph

              >
              > Actually, Märklin is still pretty much the only important z-scale
              > manufacturer. Of course there are smaller manufacturers addressing
              niche
              > areas in z-scale product sphere and of course it is encouraging to
              see that
              > there are attempts to bring in the market alternative track
              systems, for
              > instance, but will they be here to stay? It remains to be seen. Z-
              scale was
              > born back in 1972 and the only manufacturer having made a serious
              commitment
              > to the scale so far is Märklin. With all due respect, Märklin is
              the
              > raison-d'etre for all the small series manufacturers around z-
              scale. If
              > Märklin pulls the plug, it will be the end of z-scale for
              everyone. So
              > simple.
              >
              > But despite of their earlier scepticism of the early 90's, Märklin
              seem to
              > have renewed their strong commitment to our scale and we should
              all be happy
              > for that. Just look at all those incredible new z-products they
              have put out
              > in the past few years, and we speak about truly new products here,
              not just
              > repaints. At least I think that products like the German V100, GG-
              1, NOHAB,
              > Anhalter Station kit and many others are truly remarkable.
              Sometimes Märklin
              > bashing of this list is just so plain silly and totally lacks the
              realism.
              > Reminds me of the Grimm's fairytale of fisherman's wife who was
              always
              > complaining of what she had no matter how much more she got and
              ended up
              > losing everything at the end.
              >
              > I don't think that any of us is collecting/operating z-scale
              trains to save
              > money. Z-scale is not a mainstream scale and higher precision
              required in
              > manufacturing and smaller series reflect on prices too. Also,
              Märklin has
              > never been known for making bargain basement products in any
              scale. I am not
              > happy with z-scale prices either which on the first look are
              relatively
              > high, but I try to weigh the higher price tags against what I
              actually get.
              > And my conclusion is that the price may be high, but it is also
              justified in
              > view of the true quality and customer support you get. It is not
              once or
              > twice that I have been pleasantly surprised when first buying from
              a certain
              > auction site older z-locomotives in an apparently bad shape and
              when
              > disassembling them for service noticed how incredibly well-built
              they are
              > and how they after servicing suddenly appear like brand new. I've
              seen
              > locomotives from early 70's, with hundreds of operating hours
              behind them
              > and yet, all metallic mechanisms inside were still in a wonderful
              shape.
              > Also, how many manufacturers actually can sell you spare parts for
              > locomotives they made some 30 odd years ago in rare cases they are
              required
              > for repairs?
              >
              > We all have our freedom of choice, and there are those to whom the
              price is
              > everything. To those constantly complaining of the cost of z-
              scale, I would
              > just like to say that maybe you have simply chosen the wrong scale
              in that
              > case. Z-scale is bound to be more difficult, more expensive, more
              > challenging but more rewarding too than "easier", more popular
              scales. But
              > one needs to have a right kind of attitude, more realism and
              understanding
              > the true nature of our scale would not hurt. And US dollars'
              longtime
              > downhill against Euro is beyond Märklin's control too.
              >
              > As to Märklin's z-scale model policies, of course they are
              targeting
              > collectors as well as those of us who like to run their trains.
              It's like
              > that with all the other scales too when it comes to high-end
              manufacturers.
              > I don't see it as a problem though. I think there is a very good
              balance
              > between collectibles and mass production models in Märklin product
              catalog.
              > There are buyers for both, has always been.
              >
              > Tapani Tuominen
              > trains@z...
            • bscaro
              Hi This thread has taken on a bit of a life of its own . . . but there you go. My original comments are directed more at the way Marklin position themselves -
              Message 6 of 24 , Mar 2, 2005
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                Hi

                This thread has taken on a bit of a life of its own . . . but there
                you go.

                My original comments are directed more at the way Marklin position
                themselves - and it seems to me they are positioning themselves to
                appeal to a 'club' or elite 'collecting' market rather than
                a 'modelling' one. That's my perception when visiting their dealers
                with their show rooms in a number of countries.

                What I wondered was whether that approach could be sustained in the
                light of MT's entry into the market in a big way, with a locomotive
                chassis choice that seems designed to enable them to quickly release
                all the major EMD models of the 50s and 60s.

                The idea of Marklin having two lines is one way around that problem,
                and might be one thing they could do. They already do it to a limited
                extent with little starter sets that are very reasonably priced with
                the 0-6-0, one wagon and an oval of track.

                And maybe not a bad idea, to be entirely selfish.

                I could care less what Marklin bodies are like as I only use their
                chassis. [And most of you already know my opinion of the US ones is
                not high, but let's not go there again.]

                But, to those who say they wouldn't care if Marklin upped stumps,
                where would you get steam loco chassis ? Even the MT steam loco used
                a Marklin chassis !

                Let's not be unrealistic.

                Cheers

                Ben

                > I personally think they should have two line like most big HO
                company
                > do. One high end with good engine, high detail and limited runs and
                > one lower with somewhat a lower price tag. Then you and mix and
                match
                > the line for different price points and keep all happy.
                >
              • zscaleinfo
                ... I think you very much fail to see the reality of model train industry today. If Märklin really closed it s doors and dropped z-scale, it would, first of
                Message 7 of 24 , Mar 2, 2005
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                  >-----Original Message-----
                  >From: sgt_tim7 [mailto:sgt_tim1@...]
                  >Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 17:30
                  >To: z_scale@yahoogroups.com
                  >Subject: [Z_Scale] Re: Realism or lack of it (Was: Märklin
                  >Price Increase of 19% for 2005)
                  >
                  >--- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "zscaleinfo" <trains@z...> wrote:
                  >If
                  >> Märklin pulls the plug, it will be the end of z-scale for
                  >everyone.
                  >
                  >
                  >I disagree!! And so will alot others. Z scale is here to stay and
                  >as far as I am concerned, Marklin can close their doors. I know
                  >that will disappoint many of you, but not me. I will not purchase
                  >any of their products and Price has nothing to do with it.

                  I think you very much fail to see the reality of model train industry today.
                  If Märklin really closed it's doors and dropped z-scale, it would, first of
                  all, hit the consumer confidence in the future of z-scale worldwide. People
                  would start to leave the sinking ship in masses and turn their eyes to other
                  scales, N most likely. If they see that not even the world's biggest model
                  train manufacturer believes in z-scale anymore, it's a very stong
                  discouraging signal. The accessories manufacturers would reach the same
                  conclusion and eventually discontinue their z product lines and focus on
                  other, more lucrative scales instead of a dying curiosity, a minority scale
                  on a way to extinction. The commercial risk of staying in the z-scale market
                  without the credibility and inertia given to it by Märklin, the biggest and
                  oldest model train manufacturer backing the scale would become unbearable.

                  >Marklin has stood around for years only making that F7 goofy looking
                  >loco while leaving the rest of us begging them and the world to make
                  >a Modern version of a US locomotive. Finally, AZL has broken ground
                  >and they haven't stopped running yet. MTL has recognized this are
                  >are wanting a bigger piece of the action.

                  The F7 you mention, is a product from a different era. In the 70's Märklin
                  did cut the corners a little bit by using the same mechanism in several
                  locomotive series which resulted in mildly distorted proportions in some
                  products. In some locomotives it is more obvious than in others. Marklin has
                  redone some of the older locomotives and introduced more true-to-scale
                  successors with updated mechanisms. Most notably the German 216/218 series.
                  If there is a demand and it becomes commercially viable, I am sure they will
                  introduce a new version of F7 too.

                  The product lines of the two manufactures you cite are not comprehensive
                  enough to keep z-scale alive alone in a hypothetical situation that Märklin
                  would leave the world of z. Back in the early 70's when Märklin introduced
                  z-scale, there was not a single accessories manufacturer for z-scale. In
                  order to make z-scale a viable alternative to N-scale and an immeadiate
                  success, which was Märklin's goal very much, they had to offer, not only the
                  rolling stock and a good selection of track segments, but also accessories
                  of all sorts from signals and catenary to transformers and plastic
                  structures kits. Even tiny automobiles in 1:220. Z-scale relies on the
                  availability of readymade products more than other scales due to it's tiny
                  size and support from accessories manufacturer's is essential if the model
                  train manufacturer can not cover those needs.

                  >Before you know it, and it is coming fast, Marklin will be fighting
                  >for the U.S. market. It is apparent to me, by the comments I am
                  >reading about what people are saying at these Train Shows about how
                  >amazed they are that NEW U.S. Items, modern, are finally being
                  >produced.

                  Talk is cheap. The real test is, will the new products sell well enough to
                  encourage their manufacturers to expand the production or will they be
                  forced to pull out after a while to minimize the losses. It is positive that
                  so many manufacturers are showing interest in z-scale, but like I said, if
                  Märklin pulled the plug, the others would think twice whether staying in
                  z-scale makes sense or not.

                  >I applaud the new comers. So much to produce and not much
                  >competition.

                  You seem to have a rather rosy idea of model train business. Even in the
                  world's biggest z-scale market, that is Germany, there are still lot's of
                  products that simply don't exist in z-scale, but would be very welcome and
                  why is that? Because the accessories manufacturers at large simply do not
                  consider it profitable to cater the needs of z-scalers at the same level as
                  they do for N or HO customers. However, I do agree that we should encourage
                  and see positivily the contributions of any manufacturer, big and small, to
                  our beloved z-scale. And that includes Märklin too. Unfounded and highly
                  emotional critizism of one manufacturer does not take us anywhere no matter
                  how passionate we are about our hobby, which basically is a positive thing.
                  Constructive feedback and suggestions to manufacturers work much better.
                  Also, let's not forget that actually buying their products when we can, is
                  the best way to support our hobby.

                  >and-coming companies out their. If Marklin stops making Z, it won't
                  >bother me!

                  Well, it surely would bother me and many others who would like the z-scale
                  to be here to stay for years to come and progress worldwide.

                  Tapani Tuominen
                  trains@...
                • sgt_tim7
                  ... ........................................... But, to those who say they wouldn t care if Marklin upped stumps, where would you get steam loco chassis ?
                  Message 8 of 24 , Mar 2, 2005
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                    --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "bscaro" <bscaro@y...> wrote:
                    ........................................... But, to those who say
                    they wouldn't care if Marklin upped stumps,
                    where would you get steam loco chassis ? Even the MT steam loco
                    used
                    a Marklin chassis !


                    AZL perhaps!!!!!!!! Perhaps a New company that hasn't been brought
                    to life yet? With a dedication to "Z", a great business Plan and
                    the right investors, a company could be born overnight that could
                    rival both AZL and MTL. Point is, their is such a wide open gap of
                    N. Am. locos and rolling stock that has never been attempted
                    that "Z" could very well grow from 2%+ in total Model Railroading to
                    25% or higher. With limited space and more multiple posibilities
                    with "Z", more people would give up their HO and possibly their N
                    layouts.

                    Think of the miles and miles of "Z" scale track that could replace
                    the thousands of feet of HO and N scale track that is represented on
                    peoples layouts and modules. Layout space remains the same, but the
                    acres of scale space would increase 10 fold. Having more space
                    means needing more "Z" stuff to fill the void. If more Z is
                    produced at a cheaper cost, then people will buy.

                    My personal issue with Marklin- Thanks for starting "Z" in the
                    world, but, you should have made modern US decades ago. I have
                    followed "Z" for nearly 20 years. No modern diesel locos, no
                    buy!!!! AZL changed all that for me. Sell all my N scale and now I
                    am here! Yes, much more expensive, but as they say, Build it and
                    they will buy! :) So many people are seeing what "Z" is
                    developing into here, in the US, and they are getting into it.

                    I say, the collectors can keep collecting, but the ones who are
                    serious about the fun involved in this hobby, go forth and reap the
                    rewards. NTS 2005 here I come!!!!

                    I found 2 more pennies(cents)
                    Tim
                  • David Barnblatt
                    I responded a few days ago about the Marklin debate with no comment from anyone regarding the real issue which is the value of the dollar. Here is my original
                    Message 9 of 24 , Mar 2, 2005
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                      I responded a few days ago about the Marklin debate with no comment from
                      anyone regarding the real issue which is the value of the dollar. Here is my
                      original post:

                      It really has nothing to do with labor costs. It is the value of the dollar
                      to the Euro. In addition Marklin USA operates as a separate entity. Meaning
                      that Marklin USA needs to make money like everybody else. Marklin Germany
                      sells to Marklin USA just like it sells to other shops and dealers across
                      Europe. Take that into consideration, add the lousy exchange rate, Marklin
                      USA's big mark-up and finally the mark-up from the dealer and there you have
                      the huge prices we pay over here for this stuff.
                      This really only effects dealers that buy from Marklin USA and not some
                      internet dealers that buy from partners overseas. It really is not worth the
                      price difference.
                      A good example is, say, a Marklin 8856. Here, at a well known model train
                      shop in LA the 8856 costs $419.98! From a well known auction site dealer in
                      the Netherlands it runs 200 Euro to order it from them outside the auction
                      environment. That's a huge price difference.
                      So I would not blame Marklin Germany but Marklin USA.

                      In addition:

                      A few have commented that if Marklin dropped z scale that they wouldn't
                      care. There are many members of this group, myself included that model
                      European railways. I would definitely be very upset if Marklin dropped z
                      scale. I certainly don't feel that way about AZL or MTL... They are
                      creating beautiful models and expanding z, making it more of a viable scale
                      so every body benefits.
                      For 2005 many are "unimpressed" with the new offerings from Marklin. I for
                      one found a very nice and long awaited Swiss steam locomotive. Pretty nice
                      stuff!

                      David


                      On 2/28/05 3:56 PM, "overdosezd" <overdosezd@...> wrote:

                      >
                      > Michael,
                      >
                      > Wow! Must be due to all that high-priced Chinese labor Marklin has
                      > started using. I just got the 2005 catalog and was pretty
                      > unimpressed. It was full of mostly older sets that must still be
                      > languishing in the stockrooms. Even the GG1 is a bizarre choice.
                      > First off, it's wrong. That particular GG1 had a riveted body. I
                      > don't object to another Z GG1 but I would have rather had a more
                      > commonplace paint scheme. The up side to all of this is that Micro-
                      > Trains is ramping up with the roadbed track and the new diesel.
                      > Speaking of MTL... The March page is up today and features a Z
                      > survey. Please go and fill it in. Maybe if we all fill it out
                      > they'll get some more product under development? And MTL prices are
                      > always nicer than Marklin prices! Don't know how they manage to do
                      > it without that high-priced Chinese workforce!
                      >
                      > Disguszted with Marklin 2005,
                      >
                      > Mark Lieske
                    • bscaro
                      I think you very much fail to see the reality of model train industry today. If Märklin really closed it s doors and dropped z-scale, it would, first of all,
                      Message 10 of 24 , Mar 2, 2005
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                        I think you very much fail to see the reality of model train industry
                        today. If Märklin really closed it's doors and dropped z-scale, it
                        would, first of all, hit the consumer confidence in the future of z-
                        scale worldwide. People would start to leave the sinking ship in
                        masses and turn their eyes to other scales, N most likely. If they
                        see that not even the world's biggest model train manufacturer
                        believes in z-scale anymore, it's a very stong discouraging signal.
                        The accessories manufacturers would reach the same conclusion and
                        eventually discontinue their z product lines and focus on other, more
                        lucrative scales instead of a dying curiosity, a minority scale
                        on a way to extinction. The commercial risk of staying in the z-scale
                        market without the credibility and inertia given to it by Märklin,
                        the biggest and oldest model train manufacturer backing the scale
                        would become unbearable.

                        ******

                        I disagree with this. Take the example of Triang TT.

                        British TT scale should have died by the early 70s after Triang
                        dropped it. Nothing of the sort happened.

                        People started making kits, mechanisms, etches, and British TT became
                        a scale for high quality modelling, freed of the constraints of
                        manufacturers compromises and their need for profit.

                        Modellers became manufacturers, and instead of making high-cost items
                        like RTR locomotives, instead produced generic components such as a
                        range of wheels, chassis parts, motors, etc. Using these parts,
                        modellers started building a wide range of locomotives and cars
                        themselves.

                        Most of the cottage manufacturers were in it for love, but given the
                        right co-operative arrangements of an association set up to support
                        the scale, TT did quite well.

                        In essence, TT ceased to be a commercial scale and became a co-
                        operative effort, a true modelling scale.

                        In fact, when you look at British TT and other scales like 2mm, which
                        is one of a number of examples which have *never* had the support of
                        a major manufacturer -and the compromises in realism which go along
                        with it ! - you see some of the best modelling today.

                        Although it is not guaranteed, it is at least possible that a similar
                        thing might happen in Z if Marklin exited the market.

                        I hope they don't though.

                        Ben
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