Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [z_scale] Re: Train show this weekend in Pomona

Expand Messages
  • Tom Fisher
    Thanks. TTX would be a good choice -- at least for me. ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail.
    Message 1 of 25 , Mar 1, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      Thanks. TTX would be a good choice -- at least for
      me.

      --- John Duino <jduino@...> wrote:
      > On Sun, 2004-02-29 at 13:10, Tom Fisher wrote:
      > > Vis-a-vis the Gunderson stacker, any roads
      > mentioned?
      >
      > Sorry to leave out such important details! Somebody
      > mentioned briefly
      > that the chassis would be TTX. It is going to come
      > with two 20' and one
      > 40' container. I *BELIEVE* they said the containers
      > would be unmarked.
      > The chassis is to be made of metal, btw.
      >
      > John Duino
      > jduino@...
      >
      >


      __________________________________
      Do you Yahoo!?
      Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail.
      http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools
    • Bill Hoshiko
      ... briefly that the chassis would be TTX. It is going to come with two 20 and one 40 container. I *BELIEVE* they said the containers would be unmarked. ...
      Message 2 of 25 , Mar 1, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        Tom Fisher wrote:
        > > Vis-a-vis the Gunderson stacker, any roads mentioned?
        >

        John Duino <jduino@a...> wrote:

        > Sorry to leave out such important details! Somebody mentioned
        briefly that the chassis would be TTX. It is going to come with two
        20' and one 40' container. I *BELIEVE* they said the containers
        would be unmarked.

        > The chassis is to be made of metal, btw.
        >
        > John Duino



        I think that Barry mentioned something about corporate copyrights
        for the names on continers. It's those darn lawyers again.

        If all of you would visit Lajo's photo site titled Pomona, I added
        few pictures of the MT booth that we sort of took over for about an
        hour or so. Special thanks to Barry and Joe for not asking us to
        move on.

        Greg Elmassian's photo is also finaly shown. He bought an Azteck
        car but he spent more on some large scale things. He needed two
        trips with a hand cart to get it all outside and into his car. The
        Azteck car was just stuffed into his pocket.

        John Duino almost didn't make it but he just put his foot down like
        the man of the house and his wife accepted the 42" TV (purchased
        sometime back), a new recliner chair and dinner at the old
        Spaghetti Factory as inducement to let him come to the show. As
        for David, John's son, he just rode on John's shoulders and beat him
        on top of his head for an hour or so. The joys of being a father
        with an activity that the rest of the family just can't quite get
        into. Thankfully that ended for me years ago. Today, my family
        just says, "you'll miss dinner, we won't be home when you get back"
        and that's that.

        What I had to do, though, was to wait for a phone call from my
        granddaughter. She had gone to a birthday beach party at Capistrano
        Beach and they weren't certain if it would be over by 8:00pm or
        10:30pm. Lucky for me she called by 8:15. Last weekend my grandson
        and his friends went snowboarding and they had to call it a short
        day because it began snowing at 2:00pm. This weekend my
        granddaughter goes to an evening beach party where they have fire
        rings but no wind protection. They looked pretty cold when I picked
        them up but they were not complaining. Don't even think of moving
        here. Regular gas is $2.22 a gallon and is going up. The
        enviromentalists made us add some stuff to the gasoline so that it
        would burn cleaner and it poisened our ground water. They've known
        this for the past 5 years or so but they still have not removed it
        from the gas and it is still polluting our water. And we pay extra
        for this additive. Go figgure.

        Sorry to go off post.

        Bill
        El Toro, Ca
      • Loren Snyder
        ... From: Bill Hoshiko To: Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 1:45 PM Subject: [z_scale] Re: Train show this weekend
        Message 3 of 25 , Mar 1, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Bill Hoshiko" <billhko@...>
          To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 1:45 PM
          Subject: [z_scale] Re: Train show this weekend in Pomona
          >
          > I think that Barry mentioned something about corporate copyrights
          > for the names on continers. It's those darn lawyers again.
          >
          +
          Bill, I heard something several weeks ago that really made me sit up and
          take notice. A hobby shop owner told me that UP was involved with a law
          suit against one of the model train manufacturers because the model
          manufacturer wasn't paying UP any royalities , and since UP is so often
          modeled like many other lines, UP said basically, "Hey, we want our share
          since you are using our name." If this is true, then ALL model
          manufacturers will soon be paying out a portion of their proceeds to be able
          to use name brands on their models, ie, rolling stock, locos, and whatever
          else carries recognizable names. This could have an impact on the sticker
          price of our train items, or the availability of buying them already made up
          with road names. I saw a good example of this issue when
          I observed a B29 super fortress plane model. Since it didn't say Boeing on
          the carton as though is were a Boeing B29, the manufacturer could get away
          with it by just using the plain B29 name. Other models of the same plane
          clearly stated Boeing B29, so they would technically fall under the
          copyright laws if indeed the name is copyrighted.
          If as the case might be, that any copyrighted name can only be used by
          permission, and if model makers have been using those names without
          permission, the sky could suddenly darken for all, if you know what I mean.
          I understand from what this hobby shop owner
          told me, that other train companys are watching this suit closely and if it
          goes in favor of UP, then they too will probably get on board. It is
          possible that rolling stock and locos may come undecorated in the future if
          model makers don't want to pay for the use of company names.
          Now In all fairness to everyone , and not wanting to spread
          malicious gossip, I want to go on record as saying that, this is what I
          heard may be coming. It may be just a story someone started, however, it
          certainly bears some thought. Ponder that for awhile. Loren Snyder
        • MOFWCABOOSE@AOL.COM
          Unfortunately, what that hobby shop owner told you is all too true...Union Pacific is indeed trying to collect from manufacturers for the use of not only their
          Message 4 of 25 , Mar 1, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            Unfortunately, what that hobby shop owner told you is all too true...Union
            Pacific is indeed trying to collect from manufacturers for the use of not only
            their logo, but the logos of ALL the railroads they have absorbed, which takes
            in most of the railroads west of the Mississippi outside the BNSF system.

            The situation has been causing consternation on other discussion groups, and
            in fact, there is a whole website (Licen@yahoogroups.com) devoted to the
            subject.

            John C. La Rue, Jr.


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • d.f.avila@att.net
            I think there is some truth to this as Ford was trying to collect revenue from the historic part makers for items for the early Thunderbirds and Mustangs.
            Message 5 of 25 , Mar 1, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              I think there is some truth to this as Ford was trying to collect revenue from the historic part makers for items for the early Thunderbirds and Mustangs. Ford said it was to "protect" the consumer from low quality parts. I don't plan to buy any prototype train parts, so the quality control problem is not important to me. I assume, however, some attorneys in the train offices legal department are attempting to earn their keep, so yes it could get real messy down the road if you want to use their name. It is a copyright item and with the laws as screwy as they are becoming, the copyright owner is not going to let go 1/220th of an inch. May be a case of buy it NOW or soon everything will be unmarked. ...the advantage of living in a very litigous society...

              ...don


              ----------



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • ztrack@aol.com
              Loren, Yes, the UP is requiring licensing. They are approaching manufacturers and will pursue legal action as necessary. I have heard the MT is in the process
              Message 6 of 25 , Mar 1, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                Loren,

                Yes, the UP is requiring licensing. They are approaching manufacturers and
                will pursue legal action as necessary. I have heard the MT is in the process of
                becoming licensed with the UP. AZL is fully licensed by the UP. AZL was
                actually one of the first companies to do so. Did this affect pricing? Yes it did.
                The prices of AZL locos did go up in order to reflect fees paid back to the UP
                and preparation for additional licensing requirement from other railroads.

                Interesting enough, the largest debate is not the licensing of the UP name,
                but the forced licensing of the fallen flags.

                The ethics of this is interesting and one I have mixed feelings on. As the
                owner of a company, I would do what ever it takes to protect the business
                identity. But, the railroads are going after their biggest supporters. No matter
                what, we will all be paying a little more for UP licensed products. We now must
                wait and see what the other railroads do.

                Rob Kluz

                Ztrack Magazine, Ltd.
                6142 Northcliff Blvd.
                Dublin, OH 43016
                Phone/Fax (614) 764-1703
                www.ztrack.com


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Edward Scullin
                I see a simple solution to the UP flap, (Sorry Jeffery) DON T BUY UP. Ed Scullin ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find
                Message 7 of 25 , Mar 1, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  I see a simple solution to the UP flap, (Sorry Jeffery) DON'T BUY UP.
                  Ed Scullin


                  --- ztrack@... wrote:
                  > Loren,
                  >
                  > Yes, the UP is requiring licensing. They are approaching
                  > manufacturers and
                  > will pursue legal action as necessary. I have heard the MT is in
                  > the process of
                  > becoming licensed with the UP. AZL is fully licensed by the UP. AZL
                  > was
                  > actually one of the first companies to do so. Did this affect
                  > pricing? Yes it did.
                  > The prices of AZL locos did go up in order to reflect fees paid
                  > back to the UP
                  > and preparation for additional licensing requirement from other
                  > railroads.
                  >
                  > Interesting enough, the largest debate is not the licensing of the
                  > UP name,
                  > but the forced licensing of the fallen flags.
                  >
                  > The ethics of this is interesting and one I have mixed feelings on.
                  > As the
                  > owner of a company, I would do what ever it takes to protect the
                  > business
                  > identity. But, the railroads are going after their biggest
                  > supporters. No matter
                  > what, we will all be paying a little more for UP licensed products.
                  > We now must
                  > wait and see what the other railroads do.
                  >
                  > Rob Kluz
                  >
                  > Ztrack Magazine, Ltd.
                  > 6142 Northcliff Blvd.
                  > Dublin, OH 43016
                  > Phone/Fax (614) 764-1703
                  > www.ztrack.com
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >


                  __________________________________
                  Do you Yahoo!?
                  Yahoo! Search - Find what you�re looking for faster
                  http://search.yahoo.com
                • jim_manley_alpha_six
                  Hi Loren, There was an extensive thread on this topic in this group a few months ago, as well as probably every other modeling group on the WWW. It s a mixed
                  Message 8 of 25 , Mar 1, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi Loren,

                    There was an extensive thread on this topic in this group a few months
                    ago, as well as probably every other modeling group on the WWW. It's
                    a mixed bag so far, as the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO)
                    has recently notified UP that it's issuing final refusal status for
                    several of UP's applications for trademarks for road names it's
                    acquired, but allowed others to continue in the process for approval.
                    The reason is that each application can be handled by a different
                    USPTO examiner, and they vary widely in their experience and knowledge
                    of the law and prior art (the most common career path is (1) get a
                    shiny new law degree, (2) go to work at the USPTO as an examiner for a
                    few years and battle your way up the ladder to be assigned significant
                    applications, (3) approve applications for companies you'd like to
                    work for someday, and disapprove those of companies not likely to be
                    able to keep you in the lifestyle to which you'd like to become
                    accustomed, (4) jump ship from the USPTO to the highest bidder, and
                    (5) live wealthily-ever-after easily defending cases for said
                    highest-bidder, since the USPTO is left with the lawyers who no
                    corporations wanted on their payroll either because they were
                    principled or, more likely, just incompetent). Yes, this is somewhat
                    jaded, but borne out by personal experience spending 4.5 years to get
                    a patent and trademark awarded, and successfully defending them for
                    the remaining time left (12 years remaining on the original
                    application, plus another 17 years on the one renewal that's allowed).
                    It's not a job, it's an adventure!

                    I Am Not A Lawyer (IANAL), but ultimately, if the model makers are
                    able to pay for good enough lawyers (at least equal to UP's, who
                    probably won't be very imaginative, because that's how you get when
                    you're in a big, cushy corporate job like that), the model makers
                    could prevail. The key fact that UP has to prove is that their
                    business is being damaged by the use of their logos on model trains
                    and equipment, primarily due to confusion on the part of their
                    customers in the transportation marketplace. Now, there are some
                    pretty detailed railroad models out there, but I don't think that
                    anyone in a Fortune 10,000,000 company is going to be calling up MTL
                    or Marklin to arrange for the pickup of a few million tons of coal to
                    be transported from mines to power plants, transport of automobiles
                    from Detroit to distribution lots all over the continent, or delivery
                    of Space Shuttle boosters from Utah to Cape Canaveral, etc. In fact,
                    if the model makers' lawyers are smart enough, they may be able to
                    find evidence that UP is actually benefitting from the exposure, and a
                    case can theoretically be made for the model makers charging UP for
                    advertising exposure! Now, if UP decides to get into the model
                    railroad manufacturing business, that could be a whole different story
                    (except that model railroading has been around for well over a
                    century, so there's plenty of precedent for their trademark being
                    allowed to be used in the public domain already). Welcome to the
                    arcanities of The Law (it makes sub-atomic physics look positively
                    simple! :)

                    Unfortunately, the legal defense process usually takes years, and
                    hence, lots of lawyer dollars, which companies like MTL, or even
                    Marklin, may not have cranked into their business models (pun fully
                    intended). They may just throw in the towel and agree to pay a
                    licensing fee to UP (if they haven't caved already, which some other
                    model makers have done for some road names). Reportedly, UP recently
                    announced that they will not require royalty payments from any
                    manufacturer making less than $3,000 (annually?) which, if true, means
                    that the paperwork isn't worth their effort as they will gross less
                    than $100 from such manufacturers, and that's just not enough money to
                    light a lawyer's, or executive's, cigar.

                    Note that hobbyists are theoretically (and, in practice, if you
                    believe in the substantial amount of fair-use case law precedents)
                    free to do whatever they want in the way of making their own decals,
                    and painting the UP name and logos on their model trains and equipment
                    (to be perfectly legal, you're supposed to include the "TM", but even
                    UP has forgotten to do that on a lot of its own equipment, so make
                    sure you reproduce the prototypes accurately!). You can even sell
                    such items to other individuals on a one-time basis (in other words,
                    you can't make and sell the same version of a loco or piece of rolling
                    stock to more than one individual, or to the same individual more than
                    once).

                    Here's a good one that's been making the rounds for quite a while. If
                    you think the model manufacturers have it bad, consider this:
                    Reliable sources report that Otis Elevator has received a "Cease and
                    Desist" order from the Union Pacific attorneys for copyright
                    infringement for using the "UP" logo in all their elevators. Otis is
                    having to consider relabeling their buttons "Down" and "Not Down". :)

                    All Z BeZt,
                    Jim


                    --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Loren Snyder" <ljsnyder@c...> wrote:
                    >
                    > A hobby shop owner told me that UP was involved with a law
                    > suit against one of the model train manufacturers because the model
                    > manufacturer wasn't paying UP any royalities ...
                  • Loren Snyder
                    ... From: To: Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 5:28 PM Subject: Re: [z_scale] Re: Train show this weekend in Pomona .
                    Message 9 of 25 , Mar 1, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: <d.f.avila@...>
                      To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 5:28 PM
                      Subject: Re: [z_scale] Re: Train show this weekend in Pomona
                      . It is a copyright item and with the laws as screwy as they are becoming,
                      the copyright owner is not going to let go 1/220th of an inch. May be a
                      case of buy it NOW or soon everything will be unmarked. ...the advantage of
                      living in a very litigous society...

                      Don, I think I will copyright my name and everything else about me, of
                      course it will only apply to lawyers, (no offense to any lawyers who are
                      also Zers), I can see the owner's point, but the issue is so Zmall in some
                      respects. Can't stand much more of this sanity?????
                      Loren
                    • zbendtrack@aol.com
                      ... Gee, Jim. I m not sure about that. Here s a photo someone shared with me, allegedly taken in their front yard after they made their own decals.
                      Message 10 of 25 , Mar 1, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Jim:

                        > Note that hobbyists are theoretically (and, in practice, if you
                        > believe in the substantial amount of fair-use case law precedents)
                        > free to do whatever they want in the way of making their own decals,
                        > and painting the UP name and logos on their model trains and equipment
                        >

                        Gee, Jim. I'm not sure about that. Here's a photo someone shared with me,
                        allegedly taken in their front yard after they made their own decals.

                        http://www.members.aol.com/zbendtrack/UP-Police.jpg

                        (its just web humor, folks)

                        Bill K.
                        Houston


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • jim_manley_alpha_six
                        Hi Bill, Ha! That s got to be the lousiest paint job I ve seen on a vehicle of _any_ scale. I wouldn t even compare it to an Earl Scheib $29.95 slop job - it
                        Message 11 of 25 , Mar 1, 2004
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hi Bill,

                          Ha! That's got to be the lousiest paint job I've seen on a vehicle of
                          _any_ scale. I wouldn't even compare it to an Earl Scheib $29.95 slop
                          job - it would be an insult to poor old Earl and his boys (yes, I
                          realize it's actually the fault of the poser who hacked this up in
                          Photoshop)!

                          I'm going to see if I can bid on the contract to do the painting of
                          UP's paddy wagons. I'll only charge them what they're making from the
                          licensing program, plus "expenses" and interest!

                          ;D

                          All Z BeZt,
                          Jim


                          --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, zbendtrack@a... wrote:
                          > Gee, Jim. I'm not sure about that. Here's a photo someone shared
                          > with me, allegedly taken in their front yard after they made their
                          > own decals.
                          >
                          > http://www.members.aol.com/zbendtrack/UP-Police.jpg
                        • de Champeaux Dominique
                          ... see a simple solution to the UP flap, (Sorry ... Ed, I don t think UP headquarters have any mind about modelrailroading. It won t change anything to their
                          Message 12 of 25 , Mar 2, 2004
                          • 0 Attachment
                            --- Edward Scullin <sculline@...> a écrit : > I
                            see a simple solution to the UP flap, (Sorry
                            > Jeffery) DON'T BUY UP.
                            > Ed Scullin
                            >
                            >
                            Ed, I don't think UP headquarters have any mind about
                            modelrailroading. It won't change anything to their
                            business.... But on the other hand doing so should
                            drive a number of modelrailroading manufacturers to
                            bankruptcy.....
                            Cheers,
                            Dominique






                            Yahoo! Mail : votre e-mail personnel et gratuit qui vous suit partout !
                            Créez votre Yahoo! Mail sur http://fr.benefits.yahoo.com/

                            Dialoguez en direct avec vos amis grâce à Yahoo! Messenger !Téléchargez Yahoo! Messenger sur http://fr.messenger.yahoo.com
                          • zbendtrack@aol.com
                            ... A quick look at www.up.com shows that AZL has signed up, but MicroTrains and Marklin have not yet signed up with UP. When that happens, I expect you will
                            Message 13 of 25 , Mar 3, 2004
                            • 0 Attachment
                              ehayes24:

                              > I noticed that all of the locos are priced the same regardless of roadname,
                              >
                              > so are the buyers of locos for roads other than UP paying for the licensing?
                              >
                              > i s the cost split among all of the locomotives produced of each model of
                              > locomotive in the run?

                              A quick look at www.up.com shows that AZL has signed up, but MicroTrains and
                              Marklin have not yet signed up with UP.

                              When that happens, I expect you will see the difference in price for UP
                              roadnames. Plus, all the "stuff" in the distribution pipeline has to be sold at
                              the old prices.

                              At least that's what happened in other scales to date.

                              Hope this helps,
                              Bill K.
                              Houston


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • ztrack@aol.com
                              ... Simple answer yes, but not really... AZL is trying to keep pricing simple. Basically, AZL and Ztrack as the distributor are too small of companies to
                              Message 14 of 25 , Mar 3, 2004
                              • 0 Attachment
                                In a message dated 3/3/04 3:38:26 PM, ehayes24@... writes:


                                > I noticed that all of the locos are priced the same regardless of roadname,
                                > so are the buyers of locos for roads other than UP paying for the licensing?
                                >

                                Simple answer yes, but not really... AZL is trying to keep pricing simple.
                                Basically, AZL and Ztrack as the distributor are too small of companies to
                                handle numerous variations in pricing. Simplicity is key to operations. The price
                                is determined by a complex formula of licensing, legal fees, time, etc on top
                                of research, production costs, etc. The UP is the focus of questions, but the
                                fallen flags that the UP owns also fall under the UP licensing. For instance,
                                under the SD40-2 and SD45 run, UP licensing covered the UP, Rio Grande, and
                                Southern Pacific roadnames. AZL is also licensed with Conrail. Did you know
                                that even though Conrail does not 'exist', it still retains an office for
                                licensing? So add Conrail to the list. To simply matters, AZL has come up with one
                                pricing structure. Additional funds are also used for legal fees to gain more
                                licensing and prepare for future costs. For instance, it is only a matter of
                                time before the BNSF requires licensing fees. I hope this answers your question.
                                It is a complex issue, but we are trying to keep it simple for the consumer.

                                Rob Kluz

                                Ztrack Magazine, Ltd.
                                6142 Northcliff Blvd.
                                Dublin, OH 43016
                                Phone/Fax (614) 764-1703
                                www.ztrack.com


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.