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Train show this weekend in Pomona

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  • Greg Elmassian
    Anyone going? I m going either Saturday or Sunday. It s at the Pomona fairgrounds (california). Looks like all scales, and the DCC people will be there.
    Message 1 of 25 , Feb 26, 2004
      Anyone going? I'm going either Saturday or Sunday. It's at the Pomona
      fairgrounds (california). Looks like all scales, and the DCC people
      will be there.

      http://www.modeltrainexpo.com/


      Gregi
    • Bill Hoshiko
      ... Pomona fairgrounds (california). Looks like all scales, and the DCC people will be there. ... Hi everyone in Southern California. If you are a Zed head and
      Message 2 of 25 , Feb 27, 2004
        "Greg Elmassian" <greg@e...> wrote:
        > Anyone going? I'm going either Saturday or Sunday. It's at the
        Pomona fairgrounds (california). Looks like all scales, and the DCC
        people will be there.
        >
        > http://www.modeltrainexpo.com/
        >
        > Gregi


        Hi everyone in Southern California.

        If you are a Zed head and live within 150 miles of Pomona, you have
        to come.

        Lajos Thek, John Duinos, Greg and I should be there tomorrow,
        Saturday Feb 28. We plan to meet near the eating area at 12:00 noon.

        Lajos may bring along his MT #10 turnout for all of us to see.

        If you think that you may not recognize us, I will be that extremely
        good looking Japanese guy. I am almost 5' 4", (to find me, don't
        look up, look down) 50 lbs overweight (back in the '40s there was a
        song "Mr. 5 x 5". That's me). White hair, glasses, I'll be wearing
        jeans and look like I'm standing knee deep in a hole with a large Z
        on a small sign.

        The show opens at 10:00 am but I thought that 12:00 would be a good
        time to meet. Come early and look around. The show will last to
        4:00 pm so we can spend some time conversing.

        My cell # (949) 230 5005
        I have hardly ever used this phone and I am hard of hearing so I
        can't even hear it ring? But I you can't find us. Call. (maybe
        the batteries will be charged up)

        Bill
        El Toro, Ca
      • d.f.avila@att.net
        ..if you could only move this show a few feet to the east -- like Ohio ---- ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        Message 3 of 25 , Feb 27, 2004
          ..if you could only move this show a few feet to the east -- like Ohio ----



          ----------



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • jmac_han
          Bill, Greg, John, Lajos et al, Another Z mini-meet is in the making. I have only one suggestion, make sure that one of you guys takes a camera and gets
          Message 4 of 25 , Feb 27, 2004
            Bill, Greg, John, Lajos et al,

            Another Z mini-meet is in the making. I have only one suggestion,
            make sure that one of you guys takes a camera and gets someone to
            photograph all of you Z-guys for posterity and for Z_Scale.

            Cheers,
            Jeffrey
            from sunny and mild, for a change, Montreal


            --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Hoshiko" <billhko@y...> wrote:

            > > http://www.modeltrainexpo.com/
            > >
            > > Gregi
            >
            >
            > Hi everyone in Southern California.
            >
            > If you are a Zed head and live within 150 miles of Pomona, you have
            > to come.
            >
            > Lajos Thek, John Duinos, Greg and I should be there tomorrow,
            > Saturday Feb 28. We plan to meet near the eating area at 12:00
            noon.
            >
          • Bill Hoshiko
            ... OK Jeffrey, I am charging up my batteries for the camera and the phone. Just hope that I remember to take them. If any one else decides to go, get a
            Message 5 of 25 , Feb 27, 2004
              "jmac_han" <jmac_han@y...> wrote:

              > Bill, Greg, John, Lajos et al,
              >
              > Another Z mini-meet is in the making. I have only one suggestion,
              > make sure that one of you guys takes a camera and gets someone to
              > photograph all of you Z-guys for posterity and for Z_Scale.
              >
              > Cheers,
              > Jeffrey
              > from sunny and mild, for a change, Montreal



              OK Jeffrey,

              I am charging up my batteries for the camera and the phone. Just
              hope that I remember to take them.

              If any one else decides to go, get a discount ticket here.

              http://www.themodeltrainexpo.com/Tickets/discount.html

              The gate price is $9.00 and with the discount ticket you would save
              $1.00. There is also a parking fee ??

              Lajos Thek is an UP fan and would like to see the Big Boy that is
              parked within the fairgounds. I looked it up but it might not be
              available for us to visit this week end. The group that cares for
              the locomotives hold an Open House on the second full weekend of
              each month, from approximately 10 a.m. until 3 p.m. They have 7
              steam locomotives and an UP DD40X Centennial Diesel on display. Go
              to: http://www.trainweb.org/rlhs/ for more information.

              Last I heard, there were more than 16 million people living in the
              greater Los Angeles area. (Probably more than 20 million by now)
              There must be a few more Zed heads out there who could make it to
              this show.

              If you can't come on Saturday come on Sunday. Jay Greer says that
              he might go on Sunday. Look for him. I havn't the faintest idea
              what he looks like. Maybe he could wear his T shirt with the Trax
              Inc. logo on it.

              Bill
              From a partly sunny, partly cloudy 55 Deg day in El Toro, Ca
            • John Duino
              ... I ll third the comments. It was great finally meeting some local Z ers (although I never saw Greg). They were as wonderfully friendly and enthusiastic as
              Message 6 of 25 , Feb 28, 2004
                On Sat, 2004-02-28 at 19:42, Bill Hoshiko wrote:
                > Hi everybody,
                >
                > I just got back from the Pomona train show.

                I'll third the comments. It was great finally meeting some local Z'ers
                (although I never saw Greg). They were as wonderfully friendly and
                enthusiastic as you see here in Z_scale.

                Lajos's #10 turnout was beautiful, and to watch that F7 crawl across it
                slower than a snail (he said it worked out to about 1/3 scale MPH...that
                was SLOW...he'd start it running, turn around and have a LONG
                conversation, turn back and it was only half way across!

                I wish I could've spent more time with them but the family just didn't
                take to the "tech talk". David loved the layouts; the wife loved when we
                left (she just doesn't get into my hobbies).

                The MT guys were friendly but tight with leaks. I, too, prefer the
                transition period, but the Gunderson was nice. The folks at the Aztec
                booth were also very happy to meet some Z folks (I guess at least 2 of
                us bought a car from him :) He says the MT folks are telling him he
                needs to ramp up his production because they are seeing a large growth
                in Z, both present and future (that was nice to hear!)

                I wasn't privy to the modular talks, but I'm interested! I don't know if
                what I could create would come close to Lajo's talents, but it'll still
                be fun!

                John
              • Bill Hoshiko
                Hi everybody, I just got back from the Pomona train show. Greg Elmassian, Lajos Thek, John Duino and I was there. It was a great show. Usually I do not find
                Message 7 of 25 , Feb 28, 2004
                  Hi everybody,

                  I just got back from the Pomona train show.

                  Greg Elmassian, Lajos Thek, John Duino and I was there.

                  It was a great show. Usually I do not find too much of interest at
                  the shows but walking around with Greg and Lajos was very
                  interesting because they have a very different way of looking at
                  things than I do.

                  The only vendor with anything Z was Aztec, with their cleaning car.
                  But the best thing was the MicroTrains booth. The booth was manned
                  by Barry Carpenter and Joe Donato. They had the new Gunderson car
                  on display. It is too new for me. I want to model in the
                  transition period like many others.

                  When we asked Barry about what to expect he was very tight lipped.
                  The MT turnouts were in the pipeline. A new locomotive is also in
                  the works but he would not divulge exactly what it would be. There
                  was even a little hint about some preformed roadbed but it was only
                  a hint. Send him some suggestions on what you would like for MT to
                  manufacture. He is compiling a popularity list and this and this
                  will help them decide.

                  It was the Model Train Expo and there were a lot of manufacturers.
                  Not just a bunch of table top vendors. There were no Z scale
                  layouts. The only Z scale train operating was Lajos Theck's MT #10
                  diorama. Lajos had a new 9v battery contoller that made MT's F7
                  crawl very slowly through the length of his #10 turnout without any
                  hesitancy. Barry Carpenter allows Lajos to display, in the MT
                  booth, this little diorama with the F7 crawling back and forth for
                  almost an hour.

                  Both Barry and Joe were very gracious to allow us to spend so much
                  time in front of their booth.

                  Lajos and Greg spent a lot of time discussing a possible module
                  group. I was hoping for a few more Z scalers to appear but it seems
                  that all the people who visited the MT booth while we were there
                  were only interested in N.

                  Some pictures were taken but I don't know for shure when they will
                  be posted. It will be soon. John almost couldn't come but when he
                  did, he brought his whole family. Amy and David where not that
                  enthusiastic about all the train stuff. David is a little fellow ,
                  about 2, and he may have enjoyed watching the trains run but model
                  railroad conversation was not his stuff. John has a photo of three
                  of us. Perhaps he can post it in the photos section.

                  I know that you guys up in Daly City had a lot more participants and
                  even had modules running but this was the first time for the four of
                  us to get together. Soon we will get in high gear and you will hear
                  a lot more from us.

                  How can Ohio, Seattle, San Francisco, Houston, Dallas, and Northern
                  Virginia have so many Z scalers concentrated in such a small area
                  and we have so few?

                  Bill
                  El Toro, Ca
                • Lajos Thek
                  ... Yes, we had a great time in Pomona. Just to walk around and talk brought out ideaZ. Finding great toolZ and getting more ideaZ. Z didn t have a preZence,
                  Message 8 of 25 , Feb 28, 2004
                    --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Hoshiko" <billhko@y...> wrote:
                    > Hi everybody,
                    >
                    > I just got back from the Pomona train show.
                    >
                    > Greg Elmassian, Lajos Thek, John Duino and I was there.
                    >

                    Yes, we had a great time in Pomona. Just to walk around and talk
                    brought out ideaZ. Finding great toolZ and getting more ideaZ. Z
                    didn't have a preZence, but defenetely carried its future. I've
                    posted couple of photos in the "Photos" section, see the
                    album "Pomona". Did I say, I had a great time? Thanks GuyZ.
                    Lajos
                  • jmac_han
                    You guys appeared to have had a great time at the show. Nice effort trying to wheedle some secrets out of Barry Carpenter of MTL. I hear you, John, concerning
                    Message 9 of 25 , Feb 29, 2004
                      You guys appeared to have had a great time at the show. Nice
                      effort trying to wheedle some secrets out of Barry Carpenter of
                      MTL.

                      I hear you, John, concerning the family not having much interest
                      in the technical stuff but I have no doubt that they were very happy
                      to see daddy having such a great time. Your kids may not catch
                      on to trains but they will certainly learn how important it is to have
                      a passion in their lives, thanks to seeing your example.

                      It is a real pleasure to read about your Satuday adventure and to
                      see your smiling faces. I'm sure that there are great things in
                      store for the Southern California Z Gang.

                      CheerZ,
                      Jeffrey

                      --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, John Duino <jduino@a...>
                      wrote:
                      > On Sat, 2004-02-28 at 19:42, Bill Hoshiko wrote:
                      > I'll third the comments. It was great finally meeting some local
                      Z'ers
                      > They were as wonderfully friendly and
                      > enthusiastic as you see here in Z_scale.

                      > I wish I could've spent more time with them but the family just
                      didn't
                      > take to the "tech talk". David loved the layouts; the wife loved
                      when we
                      > left (she just doesn't get into my hobbies).

                      > John
                    • Tom Fisher
                      Vis-a-vis the Gunderson stacker, any roads mentioned? ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail.
                      Message 10 of 25 , Feb 29, 2004
                        Vis-a-vis the Gunderson stacker, any roads mentioned?


                        --- John Duino <jduino@...> wrote:
                        > On Sat, 2004-02-28 at 19:42, Bill Hoshiko wrote:
                        > > Hi everybody,
                        > >
                        > > I just got back from the Pomona train show.
                        >
                        > I'll third the comments. It was great finally
                        > meeting some local Z'ers
                        > (although I never saw Greg). They were as
                        > wonderfully friendly and
                        > enthusiastic as you see here in Z_scale.
                        >
                        > Lajos's #10 turnout was beautiful, and to watch that
                        > F7 crawl across it
                        > slower than a snail (he said it worked out to about
                        > 1/3 scale MPH...that
                        > was SLOW...he'd start it running, turn around and
                        > have a LONG
                        > conversation, turn back and it was only half way
                        > across!
                        >
                        > I wish I could've spent more time with them but the
                        > family just didn't
                        > take to the "tech talk". David loved the layouts;
                        > the wife loved when we
                        > left (she just doesn't get into my hobbies).
                        >
                        > The MT guys were friendly but tight with leaks. I,
                        > too, prefer the
                        > transition period, but the Gunderson was nice. The
                        > folks at the Aztec
                        > booth were also very happy to meet some Z folks (I
                        > guess at least 2 of
                        > us bought a car from him :) He says the MT folks are
                        > telling him he
                        > needs to ramp up his production because they are
                        > seeing a large growth
                        > in Z, both present and future (that was nice to
                        > hear!)
                        >
                        > I wasn't privy to the modular talks, but I'm
                        > interested! I don't know if
                        > what I could create would come close to Lajo's
                        > talents, but it'll still
                        > be fun!
                        >
                        > John
                        >
                        >


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                      • John Duino
                        ... Sorry to leave out such important details! Somebody mentioned briefly that the chassis would be TTX. It is going to come with two 20 and one 40
                        Message 11 of 25 , Feb 29, 2004
                          On Sun, 2004-02-29 at 13:10, Tom Fisher wrote:
                          > Vis-a-vis the Gunderson stacker, any roads mentioned?

                          Sorry to leave out such important details! Somebody mentioned briefly
                          that the chassis would be TTX. It is going to come with two 20' and one
                          40' container. I *BELIEVE* they said the containers would be unmarked.
                          The chassis is to be made of metal, btw.

                          John Duino
                          jduino@...
                        • Tom Fisher
                          Thanks. TTX would be a good choice -- at least for me. ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail.
                          Message 12 of 25 , Mar 1, 2004
                            Thanks. TTX would be a good choice -- at least for
                            me.

                            --- John Duino <jduino@...> wrote:
                            > On Sun, 2004-02-29 at 13:10, Tom Fisher wrote:
                            > > Vis-a-vis the Gunderson stacker, any roads
                            > mentioned?
                            >
                            > Sorry to leave out such important details! Somebody
                            > mentioned briefly
                            > that the chassis would be TTX. It is going to come
                            > with two 20' and one
                            > 40' container. I *BELIEVE* they said the containers
                            > would be unmarked.
                            > The chassis is to be made of metal, btw.
                            >
                            > John Duino
                            > jduino@...
                            >
                            >


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                          • Bill Hoshiko
                            ... briefly that the chassis would be TTX. It is going to come with two 20 and one 40 container. I *BELIEVE* they said the containers would be unmarked. ...
                            Message 13 of 25 , Mar 1, 2004
                              Tom Fisher wrote:
                              > > Vis-a-vis the Gunderson stacker, any roads mentioned?
                              >

                              John Duino <jduino@a...> wrote:

                              > Sorry to leave out such important details! Somebody mentioned
                              briefly that the chassis would be TTX. It is going to come with two
                              20' and one 40' container. I *BELIEVE* they said the containers
                              would be unmarked.

                              > The chassis is to be made of metal, btw.
                              >
                              > John Duino



                              I think that Barry mentioned something about corporate copyrights
                              for the names on continers. It's those darn lawyers again.

                              If all of you would visit Lajo's photo site titled Pomona, I added
                              few pictures of the MT booth that we sort of took over for about an
                              hour or so. Special thanks to Barry and Joe for not asking us to
                              move on.

                              Greg Elmassian's photo is also finaly shown. He bought an Azteck
                              car but he spent more on some large scale things. He needed two
                              trips with a hand cart to get it all outside and into his car. The
                              Azteck car was just stuffed into his pocket.

                              John Duino almost didn't make it but he just put his foot down like
                              the man of the house and his wife accepted the 42" TV (purchased
                              sometime back), a new recliner chair and dinner at the old
                              Spaghetti Factory as inducement to let him come to the show. As
                              for David, John's son, he just rode on John's shoulders and beat him
                              on top of his head for an hour or so. The joys of being a father
                              with an activity that the rest of the family just can't quite get
                              into. Thankfully that ended for me years ago. Today, my family
                              just says, "you'll miss dinner, we won't be home when you get back"
                              and that's that.

                              What I had to do, though, was to wait for a phone call from my
                              granddaughter. She had gone to a birthday beach party at Capistrano
                              Beach and they weren't certain if it would be over by 8:00pm or
                              10:30pm. Lucky for me she called by 8:15. Last weekend my grandson
                              and his friends went snowboarding and they had to call it a short
                              day because it began snowing at 2:00pm. This weekend my
                              granddaughter goes to an evening beach party where they have fire
                              rings but no wind protection. They looked pretty cold when I picked
                              them up but they were not complaining. Don't even think of moving
                              here. Regular gas is $2.22 a gallon and is going up. The
                              enviromentalists made us add some stuff to the gasoline so that it
                              would burn cleaner and it poisened our ground water. They've known
                              this for the past 5 years or so but they still have not removed it
                              from the gas and it is still polluting our water. And we pay extra
                              for this additive. Go figgure.

                              Sorry to go off post.

                              Bill
                              El Toro, Ca
                            • Loren Snyder
                              ... From: Bill Hoshiko To: Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 1:45 PM Subject: [z_scale] Re: Train show this weekend
                              Message 14 of 25 , Mar 1, 2004
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "Bill Hoshiko" <billhko@...>
                                To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 1:45 PM
                                Subject: [z_scale] Re: Train show this weekend in Pomona
                                >
                                > I think that Barry mentioned something about corporate copyrights
                                > for the names on continers. It's those darn lawyers again.
                                >
                                +
                                Bill, I heard something several weeks ago that really made me sit up and
                                take notice. A hobby shop owner told me that UP was involved with a law
                                suit against one of the model train manufacturers because the model
                                manufacturer wasn't paying UP any royalities , and since UP is so often
                                modeled like many other lines, UP said basically, "Hey, we want our share
                                since you are using our name." If this is true, then ALL model
                                manufacturers will soon be paying out a portion of their proceeds to be able
                                to use name brands on their models, ie, rolling stock, locos, and whatever
                                else carries recognizable names. This could have an impact on the sticker
                                price of our train items, or the availability of buying them already made up
                                with road names. I saw a good example of this issue when
                                I observed a B29 super fortress plane model. Since it didn't say Boeing on
                                the carton as though is were a Boeing B29, the manufacturer could get away
                                with it by just using the plain B29 name. Other models of the same plane
                                clearly stated Boeing B29, so they would technically fall under the
                                copyright laws if indeed the name is copyrighted.
                                If as the case might be, that any copyrighted name can only be used by
                                permission, and if model makers have been using those names without
                                permission, the sky could suddenly darken for all, if you know what I mean.
                                I understand from what this hobby shop owner
                                told me, that other train companys are watching this suit closely and if it
                                goes in favor of UP, then they too will probably get on board. It is
                                possible that rolling stock and locos may come undecorated in the future if
                                model makers don't want to pay for the use of company names.
                                Now In all fairness to everyone , and not wanting to spread
                                malicious gossip, I want to go on record as saying that, this is what I
                                heard may be coming. It may be just a story someone started, however, it
                                certainly bears some thought. Ponder that for awhile. Loren Snyder
                              • MOFWCABOOSE@AOL.COM
                                Unfortunately, what that hobby shop owner told you is all too true...Union Pacific is indeed trying to collect from manufacturers for the use of not only their
                                Message 15 of 25 , Mar 1, 2004
                                  Unfortunately, what that hobby shop owner told you is all too true...Union
                                  Pacific is indeed trying to collect from manufacturers for the use of not only
                                  their logo, but the logos of ALL the railroads they have absorbed, which takes
                                  in most of the railroads west of the Mississippi outside the BNSF system.

                                  The situation has been causing consternation on other discussion groups, and
                                  in fact, there is a whole website (Licen@yahoogroups.com) devoted to the
                                  subject.

                                  John C. La Rue, Jr.


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • d.f.avila@att.net
                                  I think there is some truth to this as Ford was trying to collect revenue from the historic part makers for items for the early Thunderbirds and Mustangs.
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Mar 1, 2004
                                    I think there is some truth to this as Ford was trying to collect revenue from the historic part makers for items for the early Thunderbirds and Mustangs. Ford said it was to "protect" the consumer from low quality parts. I don't plan to buy any prototype train parts, so the quality control problem is not important to me. I assume, however, some attorneys in the train offices legal department are attempting to earn their keep, so yes it could get real messy down the road if you want to use their name. It is a copyright item and with the laws as screwy as they are becoming, the copyright owner is not going to let go 1/220th of an inch. May be a case of buy it NOW or soon everything will be unmarked. ...the advantage of living in a very litigous society...

                                    ...don


                                    ----------



                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • ztrack@aol.com
                                    Loren, Yes, the UP is requiring licensing. They are approaching manufacturers and will pursue legal action as necessary. I have heard the MT is in the process
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Mar 1, 2004
                                      Loren,

                                      Yes, the UP is requiring licensing. They are approaching manufacturers and
                                      will pursue legal action as necessary. I have heard the MT is in the process of
                                      becoming licensed with the UP. AZL is fully licensed by the UP. AZL was
                                      actually one of the first companies to do so. Did this affect pricing? Yes it did.
                                      The prices of AZL locos did go up in order to reflect fees paid back to the UP
                                      and preparation for additional licensing requirement from other railroads.

                                      Interesting enough, the largest debate is not the licensing of the UP name,
                                      but the forced licensing of the fallen flags.

                                      The ethics of this is interesting and one I have mixed feelings on. As the
                                      owner of a company, I would do what ever it takes to protect the business
                                      identity. But, the railroads are going after their biggest supporters. No matter
                                      what, we will all be paying a little more for UP licensed products. We now must
                                      wait and see what the other railroads do.

                                      Rob Kluz

                                      Ztrack Magazine, Ltd.
                                      6142 Northcliff Blvd.
                                      Dublin, OH 43016
                                      Phone/Fax (614) 764-1703
                                      www.ztrack.com


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Edward Scullin
                                      I see a simple solution to the UP flap, (Sorry Jeffery) DON T BUY UP. Ed Scullin ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Mar 1, 2004
                                        I see a simple solution to the UP flap, (Sorry Jeffery) DON'T BUY UP.
                                        Ed Scullin


                                        --- ztrack@... wrote:
                                        > Loren,
                                        >
                                        > Yes, the UP is requiring licensing. They are approaching
                                        > manufacturers and
                                        > will pursue legal action as necessary. I have heard the MT is in
                                        > the process of
                                        > becoming licensed with the UP. AZL is fully licensed by the UP. AZL
                                        > was
                                        > actually one of the first companies to do so. Did this affect
                                        > pricing? Yes it did.
                                        > The prices of AZL locos did go up in order to reflect fees paid
                                        > back to the UP
                                        > and preparation for additional licensing requirement from other
                                        > railroads.
                                        >
                                        > Interesting enough, the largest debate is not the licensing of the
                                        > UP name,
                                        > but the forced licensing of the fallen flags.
                                        >
                                        > The ethics of this is interesting and one I have mixed feelings on.
                                        > As the
                                        > owner of a company, I would do what ever it takes to protect the
                                        > business
                                        > identity. But, the railroads are going after their biggest
                                        > supporters. No matter
                                        > what, we will all be paying a little more for UP licensed products.
                                        > We now must
                                        > wait and see what the other railroads do.
                                        >
                                        > Rob Kluz
                                        >
                                        > Ztrack Magazine, Ltd.
                                        > 6142 Northcliff Blvd.
                                        > Dublin, OH 43016
                                        > Phone/Fax (614) 764-1703
                                        > www.ztrack.com
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                        >


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                                      • jim_manley_alpha_six
                                        Hi Loren, There was an extensive thread on this topic in this group a few months ago, as well as probably every other modeling group on the WWW. It s a mixed
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Mar 1, 2004
                                          Hi Loren,

                                          There was an extensive thread on this topic in this group a few months
                                          ago, as well as probably every other modeling group on the WWW. It's
                                          a mixed bag so far, as the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO)
                                          has recently notified UP that it's issuing final refusal status for
                                          several of UP's applications for trademarks for road names it's
                                          acquired, but allowed others to continue in the process for approval.
                                          The reason is that each application can be handled by a different
                                          USPTO examiner, and they vary widely in their experience and knowledge
                                          of the law and prior art (the most common career path is (1) get a
                                          shiny new law degree, (2) go to work at the USPTO as an examiner for a
                                          few years and battle your way up the ladder to be assigned significant
                                          applications, (3) approve applications for companies you'd like to
                                          work for someday, and disapprove those of companies not likely to be
                                          able to keep you in the lifestyle to which you'd like to become
                                          accustomed, (4) jump ship from the USPTO to the highest bidder, and
                                          (5) live wealthily-ever-after easily defending cases for said
                                          highest-bidder, since the USPTO is left with the lawyers who no
                                          corporations wanted on their payroll either because they were
                                          principled or, more likely, just incompetent). Yes, this is somewhat
                                          jaded, but borne out by personal experience spending 4.5 years to get
                                          a patent and trademark awarded, and successfully defending them for
                                          the remaining time left (12 years remaining on the original
                                          application, plus another 17 years on the one renewal that's allowed).
                                          It's not a job, it's an adventure!

                                          I Am Not A Lawyer (IANAL), but ultimately, if the model makers are
                                          able to pay for good enough lawyers (at least equal to UP's, who
                                          probably won't be very imaginative, because that's how you get when
                                          you're in a big, cushy corporate job like that), the model makers
                                          could prevail. The key fact that UP has to prove is that their
                                          business is being damaged by the use of their logos on model trains
                                          and equipment, primarily due to confusion on the part of their
                                          customers in the transportation marketplace. Now, there are some
                                          pretty detailed railroad models out there, but I don't think that
                                          anyone in a Fortune 10,000,000 company is going to be calling up MTL
                                          or Marklin to arrange for the pickup of a few million tons of coal to
                                          be transported from mines to power plants, transport of automobiles
                                          from Detroit to distribution lots all over the continent, or delivery
                                          of Space Shuttle boosters from Utah to Cape Canaveral, etc. In fact,
                                          if the model makers' lawyers are smart enough, they may be able to
                                          find evidence that UP is actually benefitting from the exposure, and a
                                          case can theoretically be made for the model makers charging UP for
                                          advertising exposure! Now, if UP decides to get into the model
                                          railroad manufacturing business, that could be a whole different story
                                          (except that model railroading has been around for well over a
                                          century, so there's plenty of precedent for their trademark being
                                          allowed to be used in the public domain already). Welcome to the
                                          arcanities of The Law (it makes sub-atomic physics look positively
                                          simple! :)

                                          Unfortunately, the legal defense process usually takes years, and
                                          hence, lots of lawyer dollars, which companies like MTL, or even
                                          Marklin, may not have cranked into their business models (pun fully
                                          intended). They may just throw in the towel and agree to pay a
                                          licensing fee to UP (if they haven't caved already, which some other
                                          model makers have done for some road names). Reportedly, UP recently
                                          announced that they will not require royalty payments from any
                                          manufacturer making less than $3,000 (annually?) which, if true, means
                                          that the paperwork isn't worth their effort as they will gross less
                                          than $100 from such manufacturers, and that's just not enough money to
                                          light a lawyer's, or executive's, cigar.

                                          Note that hobbyists are theoretically (and, in practice, if you
                                          believe in the substantial amount of fair-use case law precedents)
                                          free to do whatever they want in the way of making their own decals,
                                          and painting the UP name and logos on their model trains and equipment
                                          (to be perfectly legal, you're supposed to include the "TM", but even
                                          UP has forgotten to do that on a lot of its own equipment, so make
                                          sure you reproduce the prototypes accurately!). You can even sell
                                          such items to other individuals on a one-time basis (in other words,
                                          you can't make and sell the same version of a loco or piece of rolling
                                          stock to more than one individual, or to the same individual more than
                                          once).

                                          Here's a good one that's been making the rounds for quite a while. If
                                          you think the model manufacturers have it bad, consider this:
                                          Reliable sources report that Otis Elevator has received a "Cease and
                                          Desist" order from the Union Pacific attorneys for copyright
                                          infringement for using the "UP" logo in all their elevators. Otis is
                                          having to consider relabeling their buttons "Down" and "Not Down". :)

                                          All Z BeZt,
                                          Jim


                                          --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "Loren Snyder" <ljsnyder@c...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > A hobby shop owner told me that UP was involved with a law
                                          > suit against one of the model train manufacturers because the model
                                          > manufacturer wasn't paying UP any royalities ...
                                        • Loren Snyder
                                          ... From: To: Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 5:28 PM Subject: Re: [z_scale] Re: Train show this weekend in Pomona .
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Mar 1, 2004
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: <d.f.avila@...>
                                            To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 5:28 PM
                                            Subject: Re: [z_scale] Re: Train show this weekend in Pomona
                                            . It is a copyright item and with the laws as screwy as they are becoming,
                                            the copyright owner is not going to let go 1/220th of an inch. May be a
                                            case of buy it NOW or soon everything will be unmarked. ...the advantage of
                                            living in a very litigous society...

                                            Don, I think I will copyright my name and everything else about me, of
                                            course it will only apply to lawyers, (no offense to any lawyers who are
                                            also Zers), I can see the owner's point, but the issue is so Zmall in some
                                            respects. Can't stand much more of this sanity?????
                                            Loren
                                          • zbendtrack@aol.com
                                            ... Gee, Jim. I m not sure about that. Here s a photo someone shared with me, allegedly taken in their front yard after they made their own decals.
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Mar 1, 2004
                                              Jim:

                                              > Note that hobbyists are theoretically (and, in practice, if you
                                              > believe in the substantial amount of fair-use case law precedents)
                                              > free to do whatever they want in the way of making their own decals,
                                              > and painting the UP name and logos on their model trains and equipment
                                              >

                                              Gee, Jim. I'm not sure about that. Here's a photo someone shared with me,
                                              allegedly taken in their front yard after they made their own decals.

                                              http://www.members.aol.com/zbendtrack/UP-Police.jpg

                                              (its just web humor, folks)

                                              Bill K.
                                              Houston


                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • jim_manley_alpha_six
                                              Hi Bill, Ha! That s got to be the lousiest paint job I ve seen on a vehicle of _any_ scale. I wouldn t even compare it to an Earl Scheib $29.95 slop job - it
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Mar 1, 2004
                                                Hi Bill,

                                                Ha! That's got to be the lousiest paint job I've seen on a vehicle of
                                                _any_ scale. I wouldn't even compare it to an Earl Scheib $29.95 slop
                                                job - it would be an insult to poor old Earl and his boys (yes, I
                                                realize it's actually the fault of the poser who hacked this up in
                                                Photoshop)!

                                                I'm going to see if I can bid on the contract to do the painting of
                                                UP's paddy wagons. I'll only charge them what they're making from the
                                                licensing program, plus "expenses" and interest!

                                                ;D

                                                All Z BeZt,
                                                Jim


                                                --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, zbendtrack@a... wrote:
                                                > Gee, Jim. I'm not sure about that. Here's a photo someone shared
                                                > with me, allegedly taken in their front yard after they made their
                                                > own decals.
                                                >
                                                > http://www.members.aol.com/zbendtrack/UP-Police.jpg
                                              • de Champeaux Dominique
                                                ... see a simple solution to the UP flap, (Sorry ... Ed, I don t think UP headquarters have any mind about modelrailroading. It won t change anything to their
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Mar 2, 2004
                                                  --- Edward Scullin <sculline@...> a écrit : > I
                                                  see a simple solution to the UP flap, (Sorry
                                                  > Jeffery) DON'T BUY UP.
                                                  > Ed Scullin
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  Ed, I don't think UP headquarters have any mind about
                                                  modelrailroading. It won't change anything to their
                                                  business.... But on the other hand doing so should
                                                  drive a number of modelrailroading manufacturers to
                                                  bankruptcy.....
                                                  Cheers,
                                                  Dominique






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                                                • zbendtrack@aol.com
                                                  ... A quick look at www.up.com shows that AZL has signed up, but MicroTrains and Marklin have not yet signed up with UP. When that happens, I expect you will
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Mar 3, 2004
                                                    ehayes24:

                                                    > I noticed that all of the locos are priced the same regardless of roadname,
                                                    >
                                                    > so are the buyers of locos for roads other than UP paying for the licensing?
                                                    >
                                                    > i s the cost split among all of the locomotives produced of each model of
                                                    > locomotive in the run?

                                                    A quick look at www.up.com shows that AZL has signed up, but MicroTrains and
                                                    Marklin have not yet signed up with UP.

                                                    When that happens, I expect you will see the difference in price for UP
                                                    roadnames. Plus, all the "stuff" in the distribution pipeline has to be sold at
                                                    the old prices.

                                                    At least that's what happened in other scales to date.

                                                    Hope this helps,
                                                    Bill K.
                                                    Houston


                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • ztrack@aol.com
                                                    ... Simple answer yes, but not really... AZL is trying to keep pricing simple. Basically, AZL and Ztrack as the distributor are too small of companies to
                                                    Message 25 of 25 , Mar 3, 2004
                                                      In a message dated 3/3/04 3:38:26 PM, ehayes24@... writes:


                                                      > I noticed that all of the locos are priced the same regardless of roadname,
                                                      > so are the buyers of locos for roads other than UP paying for the licensing?
                                                      >

                                                      Simple answer yes, but not really... AZL is trying to keep pricing simple.
                                                      Basically, AZL and Ztrack as the distributor are too small of companies to
                                                      handle numerous variations in pricing. Simplicity is key to operations. The price
                                                      is determined by a complex formula of licensing, legal fees, time, etc on top
                                                      of research, production costs, etc. The UP is the focus of questions, but the
                                                      fallen flags that the UP owns also fall under the UP licensing. For instance,
                                                      under the SD40-2 and SD45 run, UP licensing covered the UP, Rio Grande, and
                                                      Southern Pacific roadnames. AZL is also licensed with Conrail. Did you know
                                                      that even though Conrail does not 'exist', it still retains an office for
                                                      licensing? So add Conrail to the list. To simply matters, AZL has come up with one
                                                      pricing structure. Additional funds are also used for legal fees to gain more
                                                      licensing and prepare for future costs. For instance, it is only a matter of
                                                      time before the BNSF requires licensing fees. I hope this answers your question.
                                                      It is a complex issue, but we are trying to keep it simple for the consumer.

                                                      Rob Kluz

                                                      Ztrack Magazine, Ltd.
                                                      6142 Northcliff Blvd.
                                                      Dublin, OH 43016
                                                      Phone/Fax (614) 764-1703
                                                      www.ztrack.com


                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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