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Re: Poor performance (again ;-)

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  • Jeremy Brandon
    ... The problem with the 3-pole motors (I don t think this has been mentioned) is called cogging . The three poles of the armature are strongly attracted to
    Message 1 of 24 , Oct 1, 2003
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      --- "bill.foote" <bill.foote@v...> wrote:
      > There is no question that the current 5-pole motors have visibly
      > superior characteristics compared with the earlier 3-pole motors

      The problem with the 3-pole motors (I don't think this has been
      mentioned) is called "cogging". The three poles of the armature are
      strongly attracted to the two poles of the magnet, giving six stable
      positions per revolution. At slow speeds a relatively large torque is
      needed to turn the armature between these positions. (You can see and
      feel the cogging if you turn the motor with a toothpick!) Most
      controllers are not able to give just the right amount of "oomph" to
      kick the motor smoothly between the "cogs".

      5-pole motors have 10 "cogs" and need less torque to turn from one to
      another (try it!), so controllers have an easier job driving the
      motor slowly and smoothly.

      Cogging is avoided in can (Faulhaber/coreless) motors and by using
      skew windings. Cogging can also be overcome by a suitable controller.

      I have made a controller that copes with cogging, even in 3-pole
      motors, and drives nearly all locos smoothly at very slow speeds, and
      gives smooth acceleration and braking. Unfortunately I do not yet
      have a design ready for production. I am still working on it!

      Jeremy.
    • zbendtrack@aol.com
      ... Wahl oil is an antirust, anticorrosion agent that is clear as water, and as runny as water. It has no smell, and it is definitely NOT a lubricating oil
      Message 2 of 24 , Oct 1, 2003
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        Leon:

        > One question about this Whal Oil. How and why does it work?
        > Oil is normally an insulator so is there something special
        > with Whal oil that it is a conductor of electricity?
        >
        Here's a repeat of message #14415 from the archives:

        > What is wahl oil?

        Wahl oil is an antirust, anticorrosion agent that is clear as water, and as
        "runny" as water. It has no smell, and it is definitely NOT a lubricating
        oil as we know it.

        The manufacturer's website is at:

        <A HREF="http://www.wahlpro.com/l3/accesswp.htm">http://www.wahlpro.com/l3/accesswp.htm</A>

        Normal use: The high-carbon steel clipper blades in electric hair cutting
        razors would rust in days if some form of rust protection is not provided to
        the surface of the blades. At the same time, can you image the mess that
        would result if oil (as we know it) was applied to the blades, then the
        cutter put into thin human hair? It would become a cat's fur-ball in a
        second.

        About 40+ years ago, some long forgotten model railroader discovered if you
        applied Walh Oil to the tracks, it would prevent oxidation and improve
        electrical performance for a month or more. It is still used today by large
        clubs with large layouts that are monsters to clean.

        The technique is to put a single drop on your index finger, then touch both
        rails with your finger every meter or so. Then immediately run trains
        normally. The wheels pick it up and spread it around nicely. You cannot see
        it or feel it after its applied.

        No, the loco wheels do not spin when it hits the "oil" nor do you trains fail

        to climb hills. No, it does not build up on the wheels of the locos or cars
        or track over time. Nor does it get into the scratch-and-pray electrical
        systems. It does not dissolve plastics or nylon. No, its is NOT good for
        any lubrication functions in train gears, motor bearings or anything else we
        use in Z scale.

        Do I believe in it? Absolutely. In the late 1980's I was involved with a
        large N scale layout (25 meters x 15 meters) and every couple of months, you
        could see the trains start to stutter from poor electrical connection to the
        track. A standard track cleaning (any method of your choice) followed by a
        Wahl Oil treatment kept the trains running perfectly for another 90 days.
        Without Wahl Oil, the track had to be recleaned every couple of weeks.

        Do I use it in Z scale? Yes. It works in Z too. But remember, only one
        drop on your finger (its not toxic) and touch the rails once a meter. That's
        it. A $2usd bottle is enough for 100 lifetimes. It compliments the
        functions of a Relco unit, too. Relco's kick in when you LOOSE the track
        circuit. Wahl oil helps to KEEP the track circuit in the first place.

        And finally, no, it does not resolve the classic problem of 0-4-0 steamers
        and Marklin dead-frog turnouts. That's a different problem.

        Hope this helps,
        Bill K.
        Houston






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • The Prez
        ... I have tried to order it from US many weeks ago but the shipping costs were the same of an elephant with its baby. Any seller in Europe? Could anyone in US
        Message 3 of 24 , Oct 1, 2003
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          >The manufacturer's website is at:

          ><A HREF="http://www.wahlpro.com/l3/accesswp.htm">http://www.wahlpro.com/l3/accesswp.htm</A>


          I have tried to order it from US many weeks ago but the shipping costs were the same of
          an elephant with its baby.

          Any seller in Europe?

          Could anyone in US ship me one or 2 pieces without using Fedex, DHL or similar?

          I will refund through Paypal,

          Alex

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Arjen
          ... HREF= http://www.wahlpro.com/l3/accesswp.htm http://www.wahlpro.com/ l3/accesswp.htm ... costs were the same of ... I bought a bottle off my local
          Message 4 of 24 , Oct 1, 2003
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            --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "The Prez" <alextrov@e...> wrote:
            >
            > >The manufacturer's website is at:
            >
            > ><A
            HREF="http://www.wahlpro.com/l3/accesswp.htm">http://www.wahlpro.com/
            l3/accesswp.htm</A>
            >
            >
            > I have tried to order it from US many weeks ago but the shipping
            costs were the same of
            > an elephant with its baby.
            >
            > Any seller in Europe?

            I bought a bottle off my local barber shop, here in Utrecht,
            Netherlands. Have you tried yours?

            Arjen Gerstel
            Utrecht
            The Netherlands
          • The Prez
            ... I bought a bottle off my local barber shop, here in Utrecht, Netherlands. Have you tried yours? Uhm... is it the US one? I do not think barber shops sell
            Message 5 of 24 , Oct 1, 2003
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              ----- Original Message -----
              >
              >
              I bought a bottle off my local barber shop, here in Utrecht,
              Netherlands. Have you tried yours?

              Uhm... is it the US one? I do not think barber shops sell anything like that here
              and do not think there is that particular brand at all in Italy.
              maybe in some wholesale company for barber shops accessories.

              However I have found a Z friend in US that will ship 2 bottles to me.

              Thanks a lot,

              Alex



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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Arjen
              ... like that here ... Yes, it is the US stuff, even says made in USA on the bottle. So, fellow Europeans, just ask your barber. Who knows. Arjen
              Message 6 of 24 , Oct 1, 2003
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                --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "The Prez" <alextrov@e...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > >
                > >
                > I bought a bottle off my local barber shop, here in Utrecht,
                > Netherlands. Have you tried yours?
                >
                > Uhm... is it the US one? I do not think barber shops sell anything
                like that here
                > and do not think there is that particular brand at all in Italy.
                > maybe in some wholesale company for barber shops accessories.
                >

                Yes, it is the US stuff, even says "made in USA" on the bottle. So,
                fellow Europeans, just ask your barber. Who knows.

                Arjen
              • bill.foote
                I very much doubt if _any_ barber shop will actually advertise Wahl Oil for sale - you need to talk nicely to your barber to see if he will either sell you his
                Message 7 of 24 , Oct 1, 2003
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                  I very much doubt if _any_ barber shop will actually advertise Wahl Oil for
                  sale - you need to talk nicely to your barber to see if he will either sell
                  you his spare bottle or add one to his next barber-supplies order for you

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "The Prez" <alextrov@...>
                  To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 10:15 PM
                  Subject: Re: [z_scale] Re: Poor performance (again ;-)


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  >
                  >
                  I bought a bottle off my local barber shop, here in Utrecht,
                  Netherlands. Have you tried yours?

                  Uhm... is it the US one? I do not think barber shops sell anything like that
                  here
                  and do not think there is that particular brand at all in Italy.
                  maybe in some wholesale company for barber shops accessories.
                • de Champeaux Dominique
                  ... Uhh, unfortunately, here in France I don t know any barbershop selling any railroad model, so Z scale stuff in a barbershop, I let you imagine! It s sad,
                  Message 8 of 24 , Oct 2, 2003
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                    > Yes, it is the US stuff, even says "made in USA" on
                    > the bottle. So,
                    > fellow Europeans, just ask your barber. Who knows.
                    >
                    > Arjen

                    Uhh, unfortunately, here in France I don't know any
                    barbershop selling any railroad model, so Z scale
                    stuff in a barbershop, I let you imagine! It's sad, as
                    I have 2 barbershops in a 100m radius around my home!
                    Unfortunately it will be long before we have a
                    barbershop beeing like the sample at Tehachapi, CA.
                    Cheers
                    Dominique

                    ___________________________________________________________
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                  • zbendtrack@aol.com
                    ... Suggestion: look for a barber supply outlet. Or a ladies beauty supply outlet. Anyone that sells hair clippers will probably sell Wahl oil to go with
                    Message 9 of 24 , Oct 2, 2003
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                      All:

                      > I very much doubt if _any_ barber shop will actually advertise Wahl Oil

                      Suggestion: look for a barber supply outlet. Or a ladies beauty supply
                      outlet. Anyone that sells hair clippers will probably sell Wahl oil to go with
                      them.

                      "Sally Beauty Supply" is a huge chain store operation in the USA that sells
                      all manners of things ladies use to be "beautiful." Although I feel totally
                      out place when in the store surrounded by ladies talking about things I know
                      nothing about, I find many train things:

                      - Wahl Oil
                      - Funny little applicators (like ear swabs) that make great
                      applicators for weathering and cleaning
                      - Tiny brushes for painting, at a fraction of the price at "art" stores
                      - Foam backed sandpaper files (cheap)
                      - Makeup powders in earth tones for weathering
                      - Tiny wood and metal "picks" to use in constructing things
                      - Foam sponges for cleaning
                      - Plastic bottles, both hard and squeeze types with long snouts
                      - Strange looking clamps, excellent for use as a "3rd" hand
                      - Plastic storage boxes with compartments

                      I you take your wife with you, she will be pleased to explain what all these
                      things are "supposed" to be used for.

                      Hope this helps,
                      Bill Kronenberger
                      Houston




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • tsa47
                      Here in Canada I know Wal-Mart sell Wahl oil. ... Wahl Oil
                      Message 10 of 24 , Oct 2, 2003
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                        Here in Canada I know Wal-Mart sell Wahl oil.




                        --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, zbendtrack@a... wrote:
                        > All:
                        >
                        > > I very much doubt if _any_ barber shop will actually advertise
                        Wahl Oil
                        >
                      • Bruce
                        While trying various ways to clean the Marklin Z track on my first Z setup, he battery powered blue 0-6-0 and car and optional track set with 4 turnouts, I
                        Message 11 of 24 , Oct 2, 2003
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                          While trying various ways to clean the Marklin Z track on my first Z
                          setup, he battery powered blue 0-6-0 and car and optional track set
                          with 4 turnouts, I tried rubbing a small scrap of the cork sheet I
                          had cut and fit as roadbed under the track and found it wipes the
                          rails quite well and doesn't snag switch points like cloth does. The
                          cork picks up oxidation real well and can be cleaned somewhat with
                          rubbing alchohol a time or two but that's more work then it's worth
                          as a small piece of cork will last for several cleanings on the
                          double loop I have set up.

                          I've worked with HO and a little N since I was a kid and for some
                          reason I have never heard of putting Whal hair clipper oil on track
                          to improve smooth operating. I imagine the trick is to use just
                          enough to dampen the rail surface without getting it noticably wet
                          and would suspect any really thin oil, like sewing machine oil, would
                          work.

                          I also have found getting just the right spring pressure on the motor
                          brushes in all scales I've worked with can make a very big difference
                          in how a loco runs. New out of the box the Marklin 0-6-0 I have would
                          not run at the lowest transformer settings (the white one that came
                          with the optional track set) and would tend to suddenly take off as
                          power was increased.

                          I found after adjusting the tension on the motor brushes until I
                          found the right pressure that allowed it to start and ran the best
                          without sputtering from too little brush pressure the loco would
                          start and run at the first contact of the transformer wiper so well
                          that I ended up having to put a small resistance in line with one of
                          the power supply wires to the track so the loco would start smoothly
                          and not take off suddenly at the first voltage the power supply puts
                          out.

                          What I used to drop track starting voltage a bit was a two commonly
                          available 1 amp power supply type diodes (the little black ones with
                          a grey stripe at one end) connected in series with one of the power
                          supply wires, and another pair facing the opposite way in parallel
                          (must have one pair in each direction to allow power to flow both
                          ways for forward and reverse).

                          The voltage drop across many low power diodes like those often found
                          in the power supplies of small electronic devices is typicaly .3
                          to .5 volts, which makes them an ideal way to drop a little voltage
                          when needed on low voltage circuits like model railroads and ham and
                          cb radio panel lights that uses 12 vdc for the panel lights. It is
                          also a good way to reduce the brilliance and add life span to
                          lighting used in model railroad buildings powered by a fixed dc
                          voltage source.

                          Those 1 am power supply type diodes can often be found in bulk packs
                          at Radio Shack or any electronic parts supplier and aren't expensive
                          (if they are then go somewhere else). If you don't mind doing a
                          little disassembly and unsoldering they can be got for free from
                          cheap am-fm radios, tape recorders, and any smaller electronic device
                          that has a built in power supply that is going to be thrown out as
                          junk.

                          Hope this is of some help to the group.

                          Bruce

                          >turnouts some times.. I then noticed somebody in this group
                          >mentioned the tiniest smear of Whal oil on the track improved things
                          >dramatically. I tried this and have no more problems!
                          > I found I could not by Whal oil in New Zealand anymore but found
                          >Bernina sewing machine oil was the same thing.


                          > Brush tension also makes a big difference.
                        • David George
                          Bruce, Don t confuse Whal OIL with other lubricants. It is not a true OIL but is primarily an oxidation inhibitor and does not provide a lubricant effect.
                          Message 12 of 24 , Oct 2, 2003
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                            Bruce,
                            Don't confuse Whal "OIL" with other lubricants. It is not a true OIL but is primarily an oxidation inhibitor and does not provide a lubricant effect.
                            David G.
                            "G~B&CC RR"

                            Bruce <n1yn@...> wrote:
                            While trying various ways to clean the Marklin Z track on my first Z
                            setup, he battery powered blue 0-6-0 and car and optional track set
                            with 4 turnouts, I tried rubbing a small scrap of the cork sheet I
                            had cut and fit as roadbed under the track and found it wipes the
                            rails quite well and doesn't snag switch points like cloth does. The
                            cork picks up oxidation real well and can be cleaned somewhat with
                            rubbing alchohol a time or two but that's more work then it's worth
                            as a small piece of cork will last for several cleanings on the
                            double loop I have set up.

                            I've worked with HO and a little N since I was a kid and for some
                            reason I have never heard of putting Whal hair clipper oil on track
                            to improve smooth operating. I imagine the trick is to use just
                            enough to dampen the rail surface without getting it noticably wet
                            and would suspect any really thin oil, like sewing machine oil, would
                            work.

                            I also have found getting just the right spring pressure on the motor
                            brushes in all scales I've worked with can make a very big difference
                            in how a loco runs. New out of the box the Marklin 0-6-0 I have would
                            not run at the lowest transformer settings (the white one that came
                            with the optional track set) and would tend to suddenly take off as
                            power was increased.

                            I found after adjusting the tension on the motor brushes until I
                            found the right pressure that allowed it to start and ran the best
                            without sputtering from too little brush pressure the loco would
                            start and run at the first contact of the transformer wiper so well
                            that I ended up having to put a small resistance in line with one of
                            the power supply wires to the track so the loco would start smoothly
                            and not take off suddenly at the first voltage the power supply puts
                            out.

                            What I used to drop track starting voltage a bit was a two commonly
                            available 1 amp power supply type diodes (the little black ones with
                            a grey stripe at one end) connected in series with one of the power
                            supply wires, and another pair facing the opposite way in parallel
                            (must have one pair in each direction to allow power to flow both
                            ways for forward and reverse).

                            The voltage drop across many low power diodes like those often found
                            in the power supplies of small electronic devices is typicaly .3
                            to .5 volts, which makes them an ideal way to drop a little voltage
                            when needed on low voltage circuits like model railroads and ham and
                            cb radio panel lights that uses 12 vdc for the panel lights. It is
                            also a good way to reduce the brilliance and add life span to
                            lighting used in model railroad buildings powered by a fixed dc
                            voltage source.

                            Those 1 am power supply type diodes can often be found in bulk packs
                            at Radio Shack or any electronic parts supplier and aren't expensive
                            (if they are then go somewhere else). If you don't mind doing a
                            little disassembly and unsoldering they can be got for free from
                            cheap am-fm radios, tape recorders, and any smaller electronic device
                            that has a built in power supply that is going to be thrown out as
                            junk.

                            Hope this is of some help to the group.

                            Bruce

                            >turnouts some times.. I then noticed somebody in this group
                            >mentioned the tiniest smear of Whal oil on the track improved things
                            >dramatically. I tried this and have no more problems!
                            > I found I could not by Whal oil in New Zealand anymore but found
                            >Bernina sewing machine oil was the same thing.


                            > Brush tension also makes a big difference.



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                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • bill.foote
                            FWIIW the forward voltage drop in a Silicon Diode (the most usually found type these days) is 0.7 volt (the now almost completely obsolete Germanium Diode has
                            Message 13 of 24 , Oct 2, 2003
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                              FWIIW the forward voltage drop in a Silicon Diode (the most usually found
                              type these days) is 0.7 volt (the now almost completely obsolete Germanium
                              Diode has a smaller forward voltage drop)

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Bruce" <n1yn@...>
                              To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 6:14 PM
                              Subject: [z_scale] Re: Poor performance (again ;-)
                              >
                              > What I used to drop track starting voltage a bit was a two commonly
                              > available 1 amp power supply type diodes (the little black ones with
                              > a grey stripe at one end) connected in series with one of the power
                              > supply wires, and another pair facing the opposite way in parallel
                              > (must have one pair in each direction to allow power to flow both
                              > ways for forward and reverse).
                              >
                              > The voltage drop across many low power diodes like those often found
                              > in the power supplies of small electronic devices is typicaly .3
                              > to .5 volts, which makes them an ideal way to drop a little voltage
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